My GM is trying to make my Paladin a Serial Killer

[Madokar]

My GM set up a situation for the party. Various corruptions (not related to Horror Adventures) that have started to warp the party members into something... else. We managed to solve one of them. Due to circumstances, the Bladebound Magus had his Black Blade destroyed. This has removed his corruption, and he is more or less "whole" again.

That just leaves me and the Shaman left with corruptions. The Shaman is okay for now, aside from having no flesh on his forearms and a Paralyzing touch. But my Paladin now has a constant Life Drain effect that takes off 2 HP a day that can't be healed or regenerated normally. There is one way to overcome this. The GM has given my paladin the ability "Premeditated Murder Healing".

My paladin regains 1d8 HP for every sentient creature murdered with an INT of 3 or higher. This effect activates whenever my paladin directly murders someone or arranges a situation that causes someone's death in the presence of the paladin. Evil outsiders and other enemies in combat will not activate the ability.

My paladin is not about to become a serial killer. He has 140 HP at Level 10. That means he has 70 days to resolve this before he gets down to 0 HP. So I'm starting to feel a little pigeonholed at the moment.

[AvatarVecna]

My GM set up a situation for the party. Various corruptions (not related to Horror Adventures) that have started to warp the party members into something... else. We managed to solve one of them. Due to circumstances, the Bladebound Magus had his Black Blade destroyed. This has removed his corruption, and he is more or less "whole" again.

That just leaves me and the Shaman left with corruptions. The Shaman is okay for now, aside from having no flesh on his forearms and a Paralyzing touch. But my Paladin now has a constant Life Drain effect that takes off 2 HP a day that can't be healed or regenerated normally. There is one way to overcome this. The GM has given my paladin the ability "Premeditated Murder Healing".

My paladin regains 1d8 HP for every sentient creature murdered with an INT of 3 or higher. This effect activates whenever my paladin directly murders someone or arranges a situation that causes someone's death in the presence of the paladin. Evil outsiders and other enemies in combat will not activate the ability.

My paladin is not about to become a serial killer. He has 140 HP at Level 10. That means he has 70 days to resolve this before he gets down to 0 HP. So I'm starting to feel a little pigeonholed at the moment.5 things to tell you.

0) More important than anything else here, know that you cannot solve OOC problems with IC actions. Your DM is either unaware of how unfun this combo is for you, and they know and are being a ****. The former can be solved by communication and compromise, the latter can be solved by walking away from the table and refusing to play with that ****.

1) Your DM is almost certainly a giant butthole. I know the old saying goes something like "why attribute to malice what is likely the fault of ignorance", but even if this is just your DM being dense and not realizing how problematic this is for your paladin, it's a pretty big screw-up...made worse by the fact that it's probably intentionally difficult.

2) Your Paladin does not have access to his character sheet, and thus has no idea of any new "abilities" unless he observes them somehow in-game. He might have some sixth sense whispering in his ear to murder folks, but until he actually murders folks and receives healing for his previously-unhealable wounds.

3) Making the ability not activate when you kill enemies is an even bigger butthole move, especially because it could lead to interesting roleplaying: if your paladin knew of this healing ability, would they be willing to go on a goblin-killing crusade, claiming to do it because it's holy and righteous but knowing inside that they're partially doing it to avoid dying? I think that kind of character conflict would be interesting, particularly since in that case it provides the Paladin with some kind of in-combat healing. Making it so it doesn't trigger by enemy deaths just means your DM literally wants your Paladin to murder innocents.

4) Committing murder would make your Paladin fall, which means either retiring the character or respeccing as a Blackguard and enjoying your new murder-based healing forevermore.

5) If your paladin knew that murdering the innocent would heal his otherwise-incurable and gradually-worsening wounds, I imagine that a truly dedicated Paladin would retire himself Samurai-style.

[Erit]

I'm inclined to agree with Vec on this'un. One of two things has happened so far as we can readily judge; your DM has no idea how a Paladin's Code of Conduct works, in which case "why the flying hell is he the DM" is my primary concern. Alternatively, your DM does not want you to play a Paladin but has decided that, rather than simply telling you that you can't play a Paladin, he will go the coward's route and try to make you stop wanting to play a Paladin. In that scenario the primary concern is thanking his lucky stars that it isn't me that he's pulling that crap with, because I'd deck the turd with his own DMG for it.

Judging by the fact that he let the Magus go after you broke his Black Blade (IE, after you removed one of his key class features), I'm willing to bet it's in the ballpark of the latter. In which case I hope for your DM's sake that he's got something frickin' amazing up his sleeve for when everybody around has lost their class abilities, because he has no reason to expect people to stick around his table otherwise.

[Godskook]

5 things to tell you.

0) More important than anything else here, know that you cannot solve OOC problems with IC actions. Your DM is either unaware of how unfun this combo is for you, and they know and are being a ****. The former can be solved by communication and compromise, the latter can be solved by walking away from the table and refusing to play with that ****.

1) Your DM is almost certainly a giant butthole. I know the old saying goes something like "why attribute to malice what is likely the fault of ignorance", but even if this is just your DM being dense and not realizing how problematic this is for your paladin, it's a pretty big screw-up...made worse by the fact that it's probably intentionally difficult.

2) Your Paladin does not have access to his character sheet, and thus has no idea of any new "abilities" unless he observes them somehow in-game. He might have some sixth sense whispering in his ear to murder folks, but until he actually murders folks and receives healing for his previously-unhealable wounds.

3) Making the ability not activate when you kill enemies is an even bigger butthole move, especially because it could lead to interesting roleplaying: if your paladin knew of this healing ability, would they be willing to go on a goblin-killing crusade, claiming to do it because it's holy and righteous but knowing inside that they're partially doing it to avoid dying? I think that kind of character conflict would be interesting, particularly since in that case it provides the Paladin with some kind of in-combat healing. Making it so it doesn't trigger by enemy deaths just means your DM literally wants your Paladin to murder innocents.

4) Committing murder would make your Paladin fall, which means either retiring the character or respeccing as a Blackguard and enjoying your new murder-based healing forevermore.

5) If your paladin knew that murdering the innocent would heal his otherwise-incurable and gradually-worsening wounds, I imagine that a truly dedicated Paladin would retire himself Samurai-style.

The DM gave his Paladin player a problem with three ways out:
A)Murder innocents and fall.
B)Find the corruption and purge it.
C)Suicide.

Personally, I find this AMAZING. Its a challenge. Yeah, sure, the PC could die, but that's just like any other day in D&D-land. What's interesting is that the DM is putting the player into a mindset where he actually has a temptation to fall, but isn't forcing the fall on him. This is, imho, good DMing, not bad.

[Erit]

The DM gave his Paladin player a problem with three ways out:
A)Murder innocents and fall.
B)Find the corruption and purge it.
C)Suicide.

Personally, I find this AMAZING. Its a challenge. Yeah, sure, the PC could die, but that's just like any other day in D&D-land. What's interesting is that the DM is putting the player into a mindset where he actually has a temptation to fall, but isn't forcing the fall on him. This is, imho, good DMing, not bad.

Except that "character death" is oftentimes a false option to a puzzle, and "cleansing the corruption" in this could be anything from "attempt to kill an innocent but refrain at the last minute" to "shoot the moon at high noon". Without being McCree.

"Temptation" is providing an easy way out that goes against a character's principles. This is not that. This is very much equivalent to holding a gun to their head and saying "Break your principles or die meaninglessly." To do so is very much a cowardly way of telling a member of the table to stop playing a character they have very obviously come to enjoy. Were he playing Pun-Pun I could side with the DM, but for wrath's sake he's a Paladin; there's a 60% chance at minimum he isn't exactly dominating every aspect of the campaign.

[Madokar]

I have been contemplating following the Eighth Act of Iomedae:

The Eighth Act
Convincing the graveknight known as the Black Prince to throw himself upon his sword as punishment for his evil is considered Iomedae's Eighth Act. This righteous suicide redeemed the undead knight's soul and allowed him to be judged in the Halls of Aroden.

If I need to give my life to save others, then I readily make that sacrifice.

[Hal0Badger]

I have been contemplating following the Eighth Act of Iomedae:

The Eighth Act
Convincing the graveknight known as the Black Prince to throw himself upon his sword as punishment for his evil is considered Iomedae's Eighth Act. This righteous suicide redeemed the undead knight's soul and allowed him to be judged in the Halls of Aroden.

If I need to give my life to save others, then I readily make that sacrifice.

I would play along for the moment. The simple solution to the problem would be removing the corruption, which you have done earlier on eventhough it was a different challenge probably. Though I would press the matter to the party, considering your daily HP damage and seek the cure for that corruption hastily.

Up to 20 days you should be holding up, though after that point (losing 1/3 of your hp almost) things would get pretty rough for a melee, especially against tough fights (CR +2 and above) and big monster which can hit hard. Notify the party that you won't be at your full strength for the upcoming days, and reconsider your tactics around your new HP.

All in all, it seems an interesting setup to me. Much depends on how it is handled, but if the DM wants you to find a cure and it is not especially very difficult, this might breed an interesting adventure for a short time.

I would to try to enjoy the game before jumping to the conclusions. Give it a 3-4 sessions (or less depending on your schedule) before making harsh decisions. Not every DM who tries something out of box is out there to make you quit your character. However, I would admit not every DM who presses challenges like this is after the enjoyment as a group as well.

[Geddy2112]

I second that without dang good evidence, the DM is being a massive prick and targeting everyone in the party's class feature; the campaign premise is some form of Pyrrhic quest of saving the world but dying forgotten and useless in the process.

The bladebound magus had to destroy their black blade, your paladin has to fall (and lose all class features) or die, and I can guess it is a matter of time before the shaman has to kill and eat their familiar, which also takes away their spells.

At least you have the option of going blackguard/antipaladin and getting your powers back. I would guess that your DM is not expecting you to regain the evil version of your powers, and might FIAT this. Has the magus gotten another black blade or are they just left hamstrung? How much faith do you have in your DM to know this is temporary?

[Madokar]

I second that without dang good evidence, the DM is being a massive prick and targeting everyone in the party's class feature; the campaign premise is some form of Pyrrhic quest of saving the world but dying forgotten and useless in the process.

The bladebound magus had to destroy their black blade, your paladin has to fall (and lose all class features) or die, and I can guess it is a matter of time before the shaman has to kill and eat their familiar, which also takes away their spells.

At least you have the option of going blackguard/antipaladin and getting your powers back. I would guess that your DM is not expecting you to regain the evil version of your powers, and might FIAT this. Has the magus gotten another black blade or are they just left hamstrung? How much faith do you have in your DM to know this is temporary?

After the Magus performed the ritual to get his Black Blade back, he was freed of the corruption, his Black Blade became a White Blade, and the Sword got a better disposition as a result. The Magus also has gleaned some knowledge about the corruptions by performing the ritual.

The Shaman is slowly becoming undead. He became gaunt (the GM specifically showed pictures of Holocaust survivors to give an idea of what the Shaman is looking like), developed a black ichor instead of blood, and now has no flesh on his forearms. As a result of the latest corruption for the Shaman, he now has a lich's Paralyzing Touch ability.

As for my paladin, he's developed Infernal/ Abyssal traits. At level 10, my paladin has large wings with 60 ft fly speed and poor maneuverability. There are other bonuses, like a +2 bonus to STR and CON, Acid Resist 15, Regen 5, and a +4 bonus to FORT saves to overcome Poison effects.

[GilesTheCleric]

Are you allowed to use 3.5 material? If so, you have the solution already. Just cast Door to Great Evil. Hopefully your friends can teleport after you, but otherwise, it seems like you don't have any other solution that's not plot-based (besides hara-kiri).

[Madokar]

Are you allowed to use 3.5 material? If so, you have the solution already. Just cast Door to Great Evil. Hopefully your friends can teleport after you, but otherwise, it seems like you don't have any other solution that's not plot-based (besides hara-kiri).

How does that solve anything?

[GilesTheCleric]

How does that solve anything?

Door to Great Evil teleports you directly to the plot.

[Madokar]

Door to Great Evil teleports you directly to the plot.

I looked up the spell, and it doesn't say anything like that.

[Godskook]

I looked up the spell, and it doesn't say anything like that.

"you are automatically transported to the nearest location on the same plane where your talents as a holy soldier are needed"

As a DM, I can confirm, that's exactly what it says.

[Madokar]

"you are automatically transported to the nearest location on the same plane where your talents as a holy soldier are needed"

As a DM, I can confirm, that's exactly what it says.

Right, but there is no guarantee that it will be a situation related to my corruption. That part is subject to my GM's approval.

[Kantolin]

Honestly?

I vote you remain a Paladin, do the right thing, try your darndest to find a way out of the corruption that doesn't require you to murder people, and if worse comes to worse die in 70 days.

Don't use your abyssal/infernal ability, don't use your wings, don't (actively) use your resistances by stepping into a fire or anything. Just be your Paladin, do the right thing - as otherwise, you're more or less letting the corruption win.

Worst case scenario, you die a Paladin.

[Calthropstu]

5 things to tell you.

0) More important than anything else here, know that you cannot solve OOC problems with IC actions. Your DM is either unaware of how unfun this combo is for you, and they know and are being a ****. The former can be solved by communication and compromise, the latter can be solved by walking away from the table and refusing to play with that ****.

1) Your DM is almost certainly a giant butthole. I know the old saying goes something like "why attribute to malice what is likely the fault of ignorance", but even if this is just your DM being dense and not realizing how problematic this is for your paladin, it's a pretty big screw-up...made worse by the fact that it's probably intentionally difficult.

2) Your Paladin does not have access to his character sheet, and thus has no idea of any new "abilities" unless he observes them somehow in-game. He might have some sixth sense whispering in his ear to murder folks, but until he actually murders folks and receives healing for his previously-unhealable wounds.

3) Making the ability not activate when you kill enemies is an even bigger butthole move, especially because it could lead to interesting roleplaying: if your paladin knew of this healing ability, would they be willing to go on a goblin-killing crusade, claiming to do it because it's holy and righteous but knowing inside that they're partially doing it to avoid dying? I think that kind of character conflict would be interesting, particularly since in that case it provides the Paladin with some kind of in-combat healing. Making it so it doesn't trigger by enemy deaths just means your DM literally wants your Paladin to murder innocents.

4) Committing murder would make your Paladin fall, which means either retiring the character or respeccing as a Blackguard and enjoying your new murder-based healing forevermore.

5) If your paladin knew that murdering the innocent would heal his otherwise-incurable and gradually-worsening wounds, I imagine that a truly dedicated Paladin would retire himself Samurai-style.

Actually, I can think a few ways this can go.

His GM isn't being a giant jerk, he's telling a story. Something has happened to the party. Something wants the party to become evil it sounds like... and the only way to break it is to make a true sacrifice. Likely there will be some sort of reward once the party has been fully cleansed... and likely retribution. BBEG who can throw something like this at a mid level adventuring party generally frown on their hard worked schemes being thwarted.

The GM knows if you murder someone, you fall. You're supposed to figure out what you need to do before it becomes an absolute necessity to kill someone to live.

[Hogsy]

I agree with Kantolin and Cal'. You should just do you, and if the DM isn't being a major prick, he'll give you some tips on how to cure your character of his corruption for sure. This does sound like a high risk-high reward kind of situation that the DM is pulling off, but if it's working, then I imagine it'll be a very memorable adventure. Considering the Magus got an even cooler ability after he cured his corruption, I don't suppose your DM is going to leave you hanging in a "So how do you fight the corruption?" kind of situation. He'll most likely give you hooks and tips and ideas in his own way to guide you, as any DM does. (Although I may have not used the right wording in that last sentence.) If you have trust in your DM, go along with it. If you don't, then speak up and communicate. This seems to be like an OOC issue you're having, and OOC issues are best solved OOC. Good luck with your Paladin.

[stanprollyright]

I like your DM's style. This seems like a wonderful moral quandary.

[Coidzor]

I like your DM's style. This seems like a wonderful moral quandary.

How? There's a clear right answer and a clear wrong answer.

The only puzzle is figuring out the DM's insane troll logic necessary to unlock the right answer before getting ganked and having to reroll.

[hector212121]

Here's what your paladin should do:

Go to one of their churches. Find a priest. Request a Commune (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/commune.html) from a priest. Pay the 500 gp material cost. Play the 20 questions game, paying forward another 500 gp as needed.

"Is the way to cure my corruption inherent? No? Then is there a way to cleanse it to the east? No? Then it is to the west? Alright, is it northwest? Oh, thanks for that 5 word answer because being deliberately obtuse about it would be contrary to your interests of having your servant actually continue providing loyal work on the physical plane."

Edit:Also, consider thy Mount/Astral bond for a moment. Are they showing signs of the corruption?

[Kantolin]

How? There's a clear right answer and a clear wrong answer.

The only puzzle is figuring out the DM's insane troll logic necessary to unlock the right answer before getting ganked and having to reroll.

This /could/ be true, but it also could /not/ be true.

And with the evidence of 'The Magus did not just lose everything suddenly and/or die in a similar circumstance', I think it's much more of 'The DM is doing a storytelling sequence presenting a moral quandary' more than 'The DM wants you to fall or wants to kill your character'.

Now I mean, sure, the answer could become to dance on one leg while only wearing your right sock. But again, there's evidence that it won't be like that - as from the sounds of it, the other two characters have gotten through it (or at least one of them has - it's unclear if the Shaman wants/wanted the paralyzing touch or if this is part of the problem, but the Magus clearly has worked through it).

So I agree with Hogsy:


If you have trust in your DM, go along with it. If you don't, then speak up and communicate. This seems to be like an OOC issue you're having, and OOC issues are best solved OOC. Good luck with your Paladin.

I'd personally go along with the story and see where it comes to, especially since there's more evidence that the DM isn't out to screw people than there is evidence that the DM is out to screw people. Heck, based on the magus thing, I'd figure that you'll end up with angelic wings and stuff out of the deal.

(If the DM /isn't/ out to get people, then this is a 'paladin is threatened to fall' scenario that I could totally get behind as a frequent Paladin player.)

[Fizban]

Do shaman have access to the usual world-sundering divinations? Upon seeing my character's class features/identity directly threatened my first response would be an all-out assault with whatever RAW power is necessary to resolve it in the most expedient manner: RAW is not god, but if the DM has violated the first rule of player control of their characters in such a direct manner, I'd consider myself free to disregard the gentleman's agreement of not abusing the rules*. Unless the DM knows how all the divinations work and how to counter them, you simply cast "isolate plot" and apply maximum violence. I would expect a DM that throws a bunch of fiat curses to not know the proper counters, and thus when they further fiat your divinations into uselessness, you can respond by calling out their bs: you tell me to die pointlessly, I respond with the appropriate mechanics to hasten the plot, and you tell me it doesn't work, you lose. *Well actually I'd call bs first, but since you've been allowing this plot to continue you missed the first opportunity.

How's your access to resurrection? While it's not always clear depending on the affect, dying can make a lot of stuff stop. Then you get raised and you're out some cash and xp. Considering how easily the magus got off (cost= one destroyed weapon), killing yourself/letting the curse kill you/glorious death charging some evil thing and accepting death is at least equivalent. If that wasn't the plan make the case that your plan is better and doesn't hamstring the party by making you fight with a massive penalty for who knows how long.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hurl yourself into battle with reckless abandon, die like a boss, roll in with your paladin's brother steve who also happens to be a paladin with basically the same setup as your current paladin, looking to find out what happened and resolve whatever problem his brother fell trying to fix.

Rinse and repeat like a spoony bard until the problem is resolved.

Also, smack your DM with a folding chair.


In all seriousness, you have only two options; trust that your DM knows what he's doing (I'd have my doubts at this point) or have a sit-down with him and hash out why this was a -terrible- plot-device that he needs to either ret-con or deus ex machina away.

If you choose the former, go back to my somewhat facetious intro and roll with something similar unless you want to switch to blackguard.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

I like how your dm works, He's given you options, yes not al them are what you wan't. So you know what you do. You roleplay a illidan(World of Warcraft) were you use the power of the demons to fight the demons. Ask you Dm to change the requirements to get into Blackgaurd to Non-Good. Rolepaly a SLOW switch From good to neutral.
i have a fake 10 point sistem for you when you are switching
Here my order of things i would do in character.
1) don't use demonic powers to start.(0 points towards neutral)
2) start using demonic powers because you realize that you can use them to the advantage of good. (5 points)
3) refuse to listen to the lesser paladins who are not taking the chance. (5 points)
4) Get kicked out of paladins order. Take lvl in Blackgaurd. (3 points towards evil)
5)* how could they... i was the one protecting them.... i was the one who held the corruption they could not* Phase
6) plan a return from where ever in hell the sent you to for revenge (3 points towards evil)
7) make a pact with a devil. so you can gain there powers [half fiend template]
8) Take you revenge (1 point towards evil)

If your dm doesn't let you then he's pure evil....!

[Vizzerdrix]

DM wants murder hobo? Go full on Feast levels of murder hobo. Give him all the gory details. Spend hours describing how you revel in your new found power and freedom, and the entrils of an entire orphanage. Give in to every dark thought you can muster, then come back to us for ideas. Maybe killing is only the start. Maybe you can get STRONGER by eating your victims. I can give you instructions on how to prepare and cook a human body if you want. If that is the path the DM wants to go down, take him all the way kicking and screaming. Then, at the end of it, toss the bum out for this kind of crap.

Or just talk to him and let him know he is being a weiner. Either or. Your call.

[Manyasone]

Dreamscarred Press' Lord of the Night has a Archetype for Paladins called Nightguard. Lawful Paladins who hunt and destroy monsters Witcher style (almost). If you absolutely have to fall, fall to Lawful neutral and ask your DM to gain this Archetype. Or see where the story brings you, my hunch is that when the DM sees your character flat out refuses to use thus 'ability' things will take a turn. After all, we are storytellers and having the main dramatis personae die, well... It sucks. Unless they are being abnormally stupid

[Coidzor]

This /could/ be true, but it also could /not/ be true.

And with the evidence of 'The Magus did not just lose everything suddenly and/or die in a similar circumstance', I think it's much more of 'The DM is doing a storytelling sequence presenting a moral quandary' more than 'The DM wants you to fall or wants to kill your character'.

Now I mean, sure, the answer could become to dance on one leg while only wearing your right sock. But again, there's evidence that it won't be like that - as from the sounds of it, the other two characters have gotten through it (or at least one of them has - it's unclear if the Shaman wants/wanted the paralyzing touch or if this is part of the problem, but the Magus clearly has worked through it).

There's no quandary though. If one is a Paladin, the answer is to fix the problem, not kill innocents and fall. Especially knowing that there is a way to fix the problem and come out extra holy for having overcome it.

Now if it was one where the Paladin was being lured into being recklessly aggressive or to kill guilty people who nonetheless didn't actually deserve death as their punishment, there might be some room for a moral quandary.

The road to hell needs to be paved with good intentions and actual grey situations, not lolmurder.

[SangoProduction]

I'm inclined to agree with Vec on this'un. One of two things has happened so far as we can readily judge; your DM has no idea how a Paladin's Code of Conduct works, in which case "why the flying hell is he the DM" is my primary concern. Alternatively, your DM does not want you to play a Paladin but has decided that, rather than simply telling you that you can't play a Paladin, he will go the coward's route and try to make you stop wanting to play a Paladin. In that scenario the primary concern is thanking his lucky stars that it isn't me that he's pulling that crap with, because I'd deck the turd with his own DMG for it.

Judging by the fact that he let the Magus go after you broke his Black Blade (IE, after you removed one of his key class features), I'm willing to bet it's in the ballpark of the latter. In which case I hope for your DM's sake that he's got something frickin' amazing up his sleeve for when everybody around has lost their class abilities, because he has no reason to expect people to stick around his table otherwise.

Yeah. After my last experience with a Paladin (where I spent like 3 weeks with the DM working out how to port my Neo-Dragon Knight to 3.5 - so it was an approved idea), I've resolved "Hey, know what? **** this." Think you know someone? Try pulling a Paladin at their table, and realize how wrong you are.

In my latest game, I've had someone want to play a Samurai (class). I opted to inform him that it could be emulated with fighter levels, and not have some stupid oath. Failing to convince him, I at least got the DM to agree to not **** him over at the tip of the hat.

[DarkEternal]

Honestly, I like these kind of deals. It follows a certain kind of story where your character is supposed to make a choice that was inflicted on him by destiny, the story, the DM's way of story telling. Apparently the character is evolving, getting good stuff (flight, resistance, physical boosts) and it is a lure from whatever infernal creature is doing, to see if the character can be corrupted (and let's be honest, corrupting a paladin is probably the greatest morself an evil abysall creature can find itself doing). It's up to you to see if you'll take the bait, if you will resist the lure and find the cure for your corruption, or if you will die in torment or in a last stand kind of blaze in glory.

This is all taking into account that your DM is not an ass, an that he wants to tell that kind of story, which, judging from the magus bit, I think he wants to do. I am all for changing characters abilities, adding or removing class features if it is not something permanent and serves a point. It's strange to me how many people blame the DM for bad handling of the game. I'd be ecstatic with this kind of development, even if I would be worried with losing the hp. Something similar happened to my own paladin (well, crusader) during a Ravenloft game where my character was taken by some crazy dark lord and experimented upon. I became a living construct, a Frankenstein monster that lost his constitution score (which hurt since it was my second stat, making me effectively lose some odd 3 hp per level permanently), but gained some nifty abilities, like quick healing, couldn't tire, didn't need sleep or to breathe, darkvision and stacking increase to strength that raised with levels.


But the bottom line was stil that I was some half undead abomination. The DM didn't really say, but there was a reason for this and while initially pissed, I saw it as a great hook to try and find a way to revert back to my mortal shell. Alas, some poor decision making led to a party wipe but I still think that the entire ordeal stood out well enough.

What I'm saying, give the story a chance.

[icefractal]

While I think it's possible the the DM is being a jerk, I don't think that's the only option. Based on the previous thread, I did start out thinking that, but with all the details added, maybe the DM just likes mutating characters (not necessarily a bad thing) and/or high-mechanical-stakes situations.

Luckily, it's not necessary to know, because (assuming you don't desire to fall) the same actions work for both. Search for a way to cure your corruption, don't murder anyone for healing, don't take unnecessary risks but if you die you die. If the DM is reasonable, you should have a decent shot at solving things this way, and it could be an exciting plot. If the DM's a jerk, then you're best out of their campaign anyway, so the PC doesn't really need to survive. Based on how this goes, you should hopefully be able to tell which is the case.

The only situation that I'd recommend murdering people for that bit of healing is if you think turning evil would be interesting - because this is a perfect opportunity to do it.

[digiman619]

My 2 cents: Your DM clearly has something in mind; he's had everybody have a major DM-fiat'd into problem, as RAW that bit with the Magus is bull as far as RAW or RAI is concerned. Basically, the problem lies on whether or not the result he's aiming for is worth it or not. If it's, say, Soulfire a la The Dresden Files, that sounds wonderful. If it's furthering a vendetta against the Paladin class by making your character die horribly, not so much. How has he reacted to you about this development? Do you detect malice?

I'd suggest talking to your DM OOC and get a general feel on what his plan is. If after this talk you think that he's making it be a Test from the forces of [Good], play along. If you think he's just trying to make you into some sort of anti-hero rather than the character you made or if he wants to punish you for playing a Paladin, do your best to die as quickly as possible and play something else, preferably with a different DM.

[Wolfofmibu66]

I'd have to agree with the general concensus, that this is either stupidity/ a not well thought out plot device, or a quirky plot device that might end up being fun, with unique limitations. Or it could always be option 3, which is straight DM malice and obstinance.

I'm also going to reference your other thread on the subject for more exposition in this thread.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?504944-Removing-Corruption-(Not-related-to-Horror-Adventures)

[Madokar]

I'd have to agree with the general concensus, that this is either stupidity/ a not well thought out plot device, or a quirky plot device that might end up being fun, with unique limitations. Or it could always be option 3, which is straight DM malice and obstinance.

I'm also going to reference your other thread on the subject for more exposition in this thread.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?504944-Removing-Corruption-(Not-related-to-Horror-Adventures)

I'm going to go on record here that the reason I started this thread is that the GM made an edit to the Healing bonus. It was originally called "Murder Healing", but he changed it to "Premeditated Murder Healing". So initially, I thought I could kill enemies in combat to gain the healing bonus. But when he changed it to a premeditated action, I had to ask for clarification that I had to plan and commit an evil act to activate the bonus. And he said yes.

So I started this thread. Because this puts a new spin on the problem.

[prufock]

Under a similar scenario, I would roll with it. The DM is trying to push my character, to see how dedicated he is. I'd expect him to drop clues or plot hooks of ways to solve the corruption permanently without falling (as he did with the Magus). He would probably know my character well enough to realize I'm not going to murder people, and will opt for a slow death while I search for a way out of this mess. I would role-play it, my character getting weaker, maybe even having moments of doubt, but never actually following through. I might go through something similar to the stages of grief, being angry, depressed, fatalistic, but ultimately defiant.

I can see potential for a way out to be dropped, but then having an actual moral dilemma incorporated into it. For example, some villagers need my help, but I know of a way to fix my corruption and time is running short. Or the way to fix my corruption, while not evil in itself, would have some negative impact on others.

I'd expect the DM to play up the cause of the corruption, perhaps in the form of a demon or devil who tries to entice or trick me into following the evil path.

I'd be fine with all of this. I am flexible and capable of having fun with this situation. That's largely because I trust my DM. If you have reason to suspect the DM isn't trustworthy, I can see why it would bother you. To a certain extent, we can choose to be flexible and commit to having fun with various scenarios, but that only goes so far.

[lord_khaine]

I am going with the people suggesting to thrust your GM here. He clearly has some sort of plan lined up for all of you, as seen by how it eventually went with the magus.
And as a true paladin you now got two paths, the easy road and the hard road. And it seems like the choice is going to be left in your hands. What sort of Paladin are you going to be? the one that keeps true when your down to 2 hp?

Personally i envy you, this seems like a cool situation for a paladin.

[Segev]

Yeah, you've got 70 (or more, if you happen into a killing that you find justified and doesn't cause you to fall) days in-game to find a way to save yourself from the corruption. This is hardly crippling, at least at first. You're getting weaker all the time, but it's only via increased fragility.

You should check with your DM, too, how this interacts with temporary hp. I expect he won't let temp hp "soak" the loss, but if he does, get your party wizard to cast false life on you every day before the damage hits.

But in general, you not only likely could level up several times in 70 days (extending the time limit by giving you more base hp), but have more than enough time for a legitimate quest to cleanse yourself of the corruption. This isn't the DM trying to trick/force you into anything. He's given you plenty of time. This is the corruption trying to corrupt you. Perfectly reasonable, from a DMing standpoint.

I'd trust that the DM has a plan for an adventure arc to cure your paladin, and have your paladin seek it out. If the black blade was the source of the magus's corruption, the paladin's probably can also be found and rectified.

[Strigon]

I'm going to put my vote in the "trust the GM" category, at least for the moment. Of course, this is assuming you haven't had any major problems thus far.
Hopefully, within a few days, you'll be given some sort of clue as to how this can be undone - and you might even wind up with some bonus powers!

However, if too many days go by without any hope, either it's a matter of you having to do exactly the right things to move forward (bad), you'll be deux ex machinaed(?) out at the last minute (worse), or there is no way out (terrible).

[Madokar]

I'm going to put my vote in the "trust the GM" category, at least for the moment. Of course, this is assuming you haven't had any major problems thus far.
Hopefully, within a few days, you'll be given some sort of clue as to how this can be undone - and you might even wind up with some bonus powers!

However, if too many days go by without any hope, either it's a matter of you having to do exactly the right things to move forward (bad), you'll be deux ex machinaed(?) out at the last minute (worse), or there is no way out (terrible).

There is some debate on the Paizo forums on whether my GM is being fair or not. He's already made my paladin fall once for a flimsy reason. There's a post here that covers it.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503859-Mechanics-of-the-Atonement-Spell-for-restoring-Paladins

If anyone wants the link to the Paizo threads, let me know.

[Strigon]

There is some debate on the Paizo forums on whether my GM is being fair or not. He's already made my paladin fall once for a flimsy reason. There's a post here that covers it.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503859-Mechanics-of-the-Atonement-Spell-for-restoring-Paladins

If anyone wants the link to the Paizo threads, let me know.

Well, there are GMs who seem to think playing a Paladin is akin to asking them to screw you over. It's sounding like this might be one.

I still say you continue on, but consider this another warning mark. And maybe avoid Paladins with him, if it's all the same to you. I mean, I'm all for playing what you want to play, but it sounds like this fellow might not be.

[Vizzerdrix]

There is some debate on the Paizo forums on whether my GM is being fair or not. He's already made my paladin fall once for a flimsy reason. There's a post here that covers it.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503859-Mechanics-of-the-Atonement-Spell-for-restoring-Paladins

If anyone wants the link to the Paizo threads, let me know.

Oh sweet horse nuggets. Why. Why do DMs think "Make the Paladin Fall" is in any way good story telling or fun for the player? Is it something in the ink of the DMG? I bet it is. They never make a cleric fall. They never make a druid fall. Heck, in all my years of ttrpg Ive only ever seen a wizard loose his book twice, and both times they got it back before the end of the session. So what is it about a paladin that brings out the turdhawk in people? God this sort of behavior just ticks me right off.

[Madokar]

My GM even noted that for the two sessions I was without my paladin powers, I still played like a paladin. I take that as a sign I'm playing the class correctly.

[John Coake]

Oh sweet horse nuggets. Why. Why do DMs think "Make the Paladin Fall" is in any way good story telling or fun for the player? Is it something in the ink of the DMG? I bet it is. They never make a cleric fall. They never make a druid fall. Heck, in all my years of ttrpg Ive only ever seen a wizard loose his book twice, and both times they got it back before the end of the session. So what is it about a paladin that brings out the turdhawk in people? God this sort of behavior just ticks me right off.

As a DM, I always try to "test the faith" of any divine caster/religious character once per character. I like to see how different players and the character they're roleplaying as reacts to it. However, if they request me to not do so, or they express dissatisfaction with how I'm presenting it, I immediately stop and rework what I'd already done into a new plotline. I also love to do similar tests for other characters, whether that's stretching the limits of knowledge of a wizard with an arrogant personality, having the Fighter who believes strength is everything fight and lose to someone stronger, or some other sort of class-specific challenge. I love to see how PCs roleplay reactions to something challenging the abilities or personality of a specific class.

[Segev]

In a setting I ran, there were two flavors of paladin. One was the standard class from D&D 3.5. The other was a dramatically overpowered PrC. The former were efforts by two good-aligned gods to lure would-be paladins away from the latter...because the latter was granted by a horrifying god of evil.

Note that the class itself was everything advertised: given to the most pure and noble of souls, with holy power to right wrongs and dispense justice. But the code was extremely strict, and designed to get the paladin to fall. Because Ril, the god in question, considers "good" to be hypocritical, and created the class to prove it. Amongst the strictures is a particular combination that speaks at least as much to Ril's hang-ups as to any temptation, but is still a good illustration of how big a jerk move it is, Ril requires his paladins to be pure - and thus virgin - males. All of his paladins receive as their holy mount a black unicorn. She is cursed to be completely in love with him, no matter what he does, and will happily do anything for him. She also transforms into a beautiful elven maiden at night, and will sleep by his side if not expressly forbidden from doing so (or otherwise physically prevented).

Oh, and if he slips up? If he, say, sleeps with her and loses his virginity? Or does anything else which can cause him to be considered less than perfectly moral? He loses all his paladin powers. And his unicorn is forbidden from staying with him. She's still cursed to love him, and Ril's priestesses will occasionally show up to remind the fallen paladin of her suffering without him.

But there's hope, of course: any fallen paladin can become a Knight (which is essentially a souped-up blackguard). All he has to do is finish willfully taking the steps into evil. Admit and acknowledge that he's flawed, that the whole world is flawed, and that he was just deluding himself. Ril rewards this with power and influence, because enlightenment (according to Ril) should be rewarded.

Ril will guide his paladins to any great injustice, and wrong, and help them find the worst and hardest-to-solve...and when they fail, he'll whisper in their hearts that it's understandable, because it IS hopeless. When they succeed, he'll congratulate them on managing...this time. He delights in orchestrating situations to "prove" to them that good is an impossible illusion. That everybody is as corrupt as he is, given the right circumstances.

If any player played a paladin of Ril in that setting, I would feel no qualms about trying to trick, cajole, manipulate, or guilt him into falling, because that's what the player signed up for. If they play one of the other two gods' paladins, they'd only fall if they acted out of alignment; I wouldn't try to maneuver them into it and would even warn them if they were about to do something that seemed questionable, just so they wouldn't be surprised by it. After all, these two gods specifically single out potential paladins and try to get them to sign up so they don't become Ril's victims (and eventual willing pawns...or knights).

[Coidzor]

There is some debate on the Paizo forums on whether my GM is being fair or not. He's already made my paladin fall once for a flimsy reason. There's a post here that covers it.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503859-Mechanics-of-the-Atonement-Spell-for-restoring-Paladins

If anyone wants the link to the Paizo threads, let me know.

Oh, right, that vaguely rings a bell.

I can see why you couldn't trust your GM after that experience.

[Hogsy]

I just read the other thread you posted, and I must say, your DM seems rather happy-go-lucky with his ideas. Maybe you should express to him that you aren't enjoying how railroady his style is? If you calmly explain that you feel like he is forcing his own ideas on YOUR character, I am sure he'll understand. If not, then he's simply more selfish than he cares about the fun of his players. Just another bad fruit in the giant tree that is the DM's work.

[Madokar]

I just read the other thread you posted, and I must say, your DM seems rather happy-go-lucky with his ideas. Maybe you should express to him that you aren't enjoying how railroady his style is? If you calmly explain that you feel like he is forcing his own ideas on YOUR character, I am sure he'll understand. If not, then he's simply more selfish than he cares about the fun of his players. Just another bad fruit in the giant tree that is the DM's work.

If he does something like this again down the road, that will be the point I will stop having fun. And that's when I'll call out his behaviour. For now, I'm willing to roll with it for a little bit.

[Barstro]

I have to agree with what others have said; This is a fantastic plot hook, but it requires a very good DM to pull it off. Anything other than a good DM will make this grueling.

I wish you the best of luck with this and hope you keep us informed on the final outcome. Personally, I'm rooting for sainthood.

[Arbane]

Oh sweet horse nuggets. Why. Why do DMs think "Make the Paladin Fall" is in any way good story telling or fun for the player? Is it something in the ink of the DMG? I bet it is. They never make a cleric fall. They never make a druid fall. Heck, in all my years of ttrpg Ive only ever seen a wizard loose his book twice, and both times they got it back before the end of the session. So what is it about a paladin that brings out the turdhawk in people? God this sort of behavior just ticks me right off.

Because the text mentions they CAN fall, some people think they MUST fall.

[SethoMarkus]

I will not tell you to trust your DM, I am going to ask if you trust your DM? This is twice now that your DM has threatened class features of yourself and the other players, and in such a way as to dictate how he thinks those classes should be played.

If you do trust your DM, then act the true paladin and resist any temptation of murder. You have 70 days, do all you can to learn about and purify the corruption in that time.

If you do not trust your DM, tall to them about how you feel stuck in this situation. Perhaps they can set your mind at ease that things will work out, or perhaps they will retcon a different corruption for your character.

I disagree that this is a "great plothook". It is a mediocre plothook at best. And even then it takes a good DM with a group that trusts them to be pulled off effectively.

Instead of forcing your Paladin into Evil acts, I think he instead should have your paladin face a situation where Evil is the easy way or the quickest way. Have an innocent be the source of the corruption. Killing the innocent removes the corruption but you fall. You will die of the corruptions effects takes 70 days. However, if you can convert the innocent to your god in that time you are saved. Or if you accept your fate and resign yourself to death you are instantly saved (explicitly told right then, rather than waiting 70 days in uncertainty). Something, anything to show that there is a way out while still being a Paladin.

It looks to me that your DM is trying to switch you to an equally powerful non-Paladin class. It seems to be done with good intent. But you want to play a paladin. It's not cool to change someone else's class, in my book :(

[Hogsy]

If he does something like this again down the road, that will be the point I will stop having fun. And that's when I'll call out his behaviour. For now, I'm willing to roll with it for a little bit.


Then do just that. Either way, everything will work out in the end. I do suggest, out of good intent, that in the future you don't let your DM have his way when he's clearly in the wrong too many times, as it can get to their head. Every DM's worst ideas always form out of good intent, but somewhere along the way **** hit the fan. I hope the best of luck to you, your paladin and your campaign in general and hope it turns out okay and that we were mistaken to be worried.


PS: And remember, RAW is your friend in your current situation.

[Erit]

Instead of forcing your Paladin into Evil acts, I think he instead should have your paladin face a situation where Evil is the easy way or the quickest way. Have an innocent be the source of the corruption. Killing the innocent removes the corruption but you fall. You will die of the corruptions effects takes 70 days. However, if you can convert the innocent to your god in that time you are saved. Or if you accept your fate and resign yourself to death you are instantly saved (explicitly told right then, rather than waiting 70 days in uncertainty). Something, anything to show that there is a way out while still being a Paladin.

I'm reminded of a thread that came up here a while ago where a campaign's BBEG had covered their stronghold in an AMF with an item that let them retain most of their power within it. Said AMF was bound to a kind and innocent old lady and the party's Paladin came to the boards seeking assistance in how things might be resolved, since the apparent choices were to kill the old lady and fall or fight the BBEG with their own abilities greatly hindered and likely face defeat.

That is a good plothook. That's how you make the Paladin face their oaths, how you present them with a "What you are in the dark" moment. The innate qualities of the Paladin, in spirit, are fearlessness in the face of great depravity and selflessness in the face of great suffering; you explore and test neither of those by forcing the Paladin to choose between their life or another's. You test them by offering them the choice between failing their principles or failing their mission.

[weckar]

Here's a thought: if you kill yourself every day to 0 hp exactly, that would fulfill the requirements without harming any innocents - as as soon as you die by your own hand you'll heal again.

[stanprollyright]

If your Paladin isn't suffering for making the right choice, then he hasn't been making the right choices. Without temptation, the Paladin's code means nothing. It's not supposed to be easy. I mean, what kind of Paladin isn't immediately willing to die in order to save innocents? It's the same choice your character supposedly makes every day, just laid out a little different. And if you do want to fall and become a Blackguard or something, justifying a murder is a good place to start. It would certainly serve the greater good if you were to assassinate certain evil characters, even if they're not going around hurting anyone right now. And considering how many lives you save on a regular basis, saving your own life is like saving thousands of lives in the future...

Considering you've seen two versions of the corruption so far, and both options have been an upgrade for the characters, I doubt either choice will end up with you being dead or powerless for very long.

Also, you've posted 3 threads in the last 2 weeks or so about the same corruption/falling arc. My advice is to stop metagaming and go along for the ride. When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

[Madokar]

If your Paladin isn't suffering for making the right choice, then he hasn't been making the right choices. Without temptation, the Paladin's code means nothing. It's not supposed to be easy. I mean, what kind of Paladin isn't immediately willing to die in order to save innocents? It's the same choice your character supposedly makes every day, just laid out a little different. And if you do want to fall and become a Blackguard or something, justifying a murder is a good place to start. It would certainly serve the greater good if you were to assassinate certain evil characters, even if they're not going around hurting anyone right now. And considering how many lives you save on a regular basis, saving your own life is like saving thousands of lives in the future...

Considering you've seen two versions of the corruption so far, and both options have been an upgrade for the characters, I doubt either choice will end up with you being dead or powerless for very long.

Also, you've posted 3 threads in the last 2 weeks or so about the same corruption/falling arc. My advice is to stop metagaming and go along for the ride. When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

The corruption was never this bad before. When it was coupled with a recent fall that was based on reasons I wasn't comfortable with, I felt I needed to vent a little. Get some opinions from other people outside the group.

And the first thread I made about the corruption was made before the GM tacked on the whole "Premeditated Murder Bonus" effect. When I first thought I would have to kill to regain health, I believed I could just kill your average Evil opponent in combat to activate the effect. But the GM said that no, I have to plan and commit an evil act to regain health.

If I had that information, I wouldn't have made two threads about the same issue. If it didn't happen immediately after a dubious fall, the threads would be spread out a bit more. I just needed some input on an issue that is unnerving me slightly.

[PrismCat21]

Did you DM ever give you a list of what his Code of Conduct was for Paladins? In the other thread you said you were going to ask for it. I'm curious about what he said.

[Madokar]

Did you DM ever give you a list of what his Code of Conduct was for Paladins? In the other thread you said you were going to ask for it. I'm curious about what he said.

He summed it up as "Right before Might, Think before you Act, and Bros before Foes". There is apparently no room for nuance when you play a paladin. You either are one, or you are not. Above the nuance, a manifestation of divine justice.

He seems to forget that paladins are mortals and are not perfect representations of Law and Good. We may strive to be such paragons, but we are flawed and must always work to such ideals. It's an area where we disagree on something. But the rest of group agrees with him, so I have to play a paladin his way.

[Scryangi]

In a setting I ran, there were two flavors of paladin. One was the standard class from D&D 3.5. The other was a dramatically overpowered PrC. The former were efforts by two good-aligned gods to lure would-be paladins away from the latter...because the latter was granted by a horrifying god of evil.

Note that the class itself was everything advertised: given to the most pure and noble of souls, with holy power to right wrongs and dispense justice. But the code was extremely strict, and designed to get the paladin to fall.


This sounds really interesting. Could you tell me a bit more about that class and its code?

[Coidzor]

If he does something like this again down the road, that will be the point I will stop having fun. And that's when I'll call out his behaviour. For now, I'm willing to roll with it for a little bit.

Better to give warnings, generally speaking.

If the rest of the group is like him though... :/

[Segev]

This sounds really interesting. Could you tell me a bit more about that class and its code?

The class was essentially a souped up full-BAB fighter-type with access to cleric magic and the paladin iconic abilities. The code was a particularly strict version of the normal one, albeit with the "no fraternizing with evil" clause removed (because while Ril is horribly unfair, he wants his fallen paladins to feel like they failed because good is unachievable, not because Ril set them up...even though he DID set them up). It also comes with a not-quite Leadership feature in the form of a coven of priestesses who act as mission control and operational support if the paladin can't find a party to adventure with. If he DOES have a party to adventure with, they take a more observational role and feed information to him.

Its code revolves around always helping those in need, seeking out evil to thwart, and never compromising on principles nor breaking one's word nor performing any act which would violate the sacred purity that made you a candidate for the class. While there are not express strictures against gluttony or greed, the fact is that a paladin who allows anybody to go hungry or needy when he has even the slightest chance of helping them out is likely to fall very fast, so most are generous to a fault. Ril fails to see the hypocrisy in their having powerful magic items they could sell, however, so it's not a vow of poverty. (Again, Ril also is out to make them convinced that their falling IS their fault, which doesn't work if he has obviously unworkable rules. Just "stringent" ones.)

In essence, the whole point is to take an idealistic young man that reminds Ril of the kind of person he WISHES he could be (but is too corrupt, selfish, lazy, and just plain evil to manage) and tell him that he has a chance to prove that his ideals are actually true. But that any deviation from them, any slip, is proof they're false.

Ril lays out temptations, of course, but any truly good person can resist any amount of temptation, right?

Remain pure. Comfort those in need. Harm none who do not deserve it. Protect the innocent (which can encompass punishing the guilty, but Ril thinks Good is weak-hearted so doesn't find failure to punish the guilty to be fall-worthy...though he will DELIGHT in reminding his paladins that any guilty they fail to punish could have been prevented from their latest act of evil if they HAD been dealt with more harshly). Do not torture. Never be cruel.

"Purity" involves more or less the classics: no sex, no drugs, minimal alcohol ("none" is an option, since paladinal immunity to disease makes less-than-clean water a non-issue), and in general no vices. Ril favors recruiting paladins in the early stage of the heat of puberty, where they haven't yet done any of those things, and might not quite appreciate how tempting they can be. He will never recruit any who've already done any of them, because they're not pure and he can dismiss any claims they make to the contrary as hypocrisy.

(The other two gods' clergy tend to welcome and inaugurate new paladins with "good, clean" versions of at least one or more of the above vices in a big party or a private celebration - the latter especially if they happen to recruit them and marry them to a priest(ess) - precisely to make absolutely sure Ril won't ever get his mitts on them. Note that the other two gods are, themselves, married (god of sun and goddess of moon), have clergy that is of the same sex as they are, and have paladins of the opposite sex. So in reality only the moon goddess has paladins plucked away from Ril, because Ril refuses to have female paladins or male priests. It's quite common for the clergy of one to marry paladins of the other. It's also noteworthy that sometimes the god of the sun DOES pluck a potential paladin away...but such paladins become priests, not paladins, of the sun-god.)


Culturally, paladins of Ril are respected for their idealism and heroism, but pitied for their foolish belief that Ril is going to give them a fair shake. They're also, slightly, feared, because it's generally believed that all of them will die young...or fall. And the fallen ones, it is believed, inevitably become Knights, which retain all the power of a paladin of Ril, but twisted to evil. They are the masters of covens of active, hateful priestesses performing their god's dark work in corrupting and bringing misery to civilization.

In truth, there ARE paladins of Ril who fall but remain good...they just fade away a lot because the pains they suffer from losing their companions (especially the mount) are depressing, and they often have to find some other class to pick up now that they're basically a fighter with no feats. The belief that they die young if they don't fall is only semi-accurate, as well; Ril is an elven god, so "young" is relative, and it IS rather common for paladins to adventure actively until they fall or are killed...because they probably won't ever stop hearing about evil to thwart or good to do, as Ril gives them every opportunity to (fail to) prove their ideals are true.



In short, Ril plays foul, but he gives a good show of a veneer of "fair." His purpose is to break his paladins' spirits and twist them with self-loathing bitterness, not to give them a reason to blame Ril for their failings.

[stanprollyright]

He summed it up as "Right before Might, Think before you Act, and Bros before Foes". There is apparently no room for nuance when you play a paladin. You either are one, or you are not. Above the nuance, a manifestation of divine justice.

He seems to forget that paladins are mortals and are not perfect representations of Law and Good. We may strive to be such paragons, but we are flawed and must always work to such ideals. It's an area where we disagree on something. But the rest of group agrees with him, so I have to play a paladin his way.

All I see happening is he's giving your character a divine test, and you as the player a choice between playing the fall or heroically resisting temptation. At its core, it's a classic heroic sacrifice. You or someone else? This should be par for the course when playing a Paladin. Maybe he does want you to die or lose your powers. So what? If you die by refusing to murder, you'll likely be resurrected with a cool new power because you passed the test. Maybe he wants you to plan the "most lawful good murder possible" so that you have something to atone for, or go to trial for. Maybe he wants you to fall or at least flirt with the dark side so he can give you cool new evil powers, before giving you another chance to atone via sacrifice. Maybe there's some other way to solve the corruption and he just wants you to look for it in earnest. Maybe he wants any combination of the above and is letting you choose which one.

[hector212121]

What if your character murdered someone evil? Surely just because they're evil doesn't mean they qualify as enemies if they'd rather stay out of your way.

Go mete out divine justice on some slavers you could simply take into custody or something.

[Madokar]

The class was essentially a souped up full-BAB fighter-type with access to cleric magic and the paladin iconic abilities. The code was a particularly strict version of the normal one, albeit with the "no fraternizing with evil" clause removed (because while Ril is horribly unfair, he wants his fallen paladins to feel like they failed because good is unachievable, not because Ril set them up...even though he DID set them up). It also comes with a not-quite Leadership feature in the form of a coven of priestesses who act as mission control and operational support if the paladin can't find a party to adventure with. If he DOES have a party to adventure with, they take a more observational role and feed information to him.

Its code revolves around always helping those in need, seeking out evil to thwart, and never compromising on principles nor breaking one's word nor performing any act which would violate the sacred purity that made you a candidate for the class. While there are not express strictures against gluttony or greed, the fact is that a paladin who allows anybody to go hungry or needy when he has even the slightest chance of helping them out is likely to fall very fast, so most are generous to a fault. Ril fails to see the hypocrisy in their having powerful magic items they could sell, however, so it's not a vow of poverty. (Again, Ril also is out to make them convinced that their falling IS their fault, which doesn't work if he has obviously unworkable rules. Just "stringent" ones.)

In essence, the whole point is to take an idealistic young man that reminds Ril of the kind of person he WISHES he could be (but is too corrupt, selfish, lazy, and just plain evil to manage) and tell him that he has a chance to prove that his ideals are actually true. But that any deviation from them, any slip, is proof they're false.

Ril lays out temptations, of course, but any truly good person can resist any amount of temptation, right?

Remain pure. Comfort those in need. Harm none who do not deserve it. Protect the innocent (which can encompass punishing the guilty, but Ril thinks Good is weak-hearted so doesn't find failure to punish the guilty to be fall-worthy...though he will DELIGHT in reminding his paladins that any guilty they fail to punish could have been prevented from their latest act of evil if they HAD been dealt with more harshly). Do not torture. Never be cruel.

"Purity" involves more or less the classics: no sex, no drugs, minimal alcohol ("none" is an option, since paladinal immunity to disease makes less-than-clean water a non-issue), and in general no vices. Ril favors recruiting paladins in the early stage of the heat of puberty, where they haven't yet done any of those things, and might not quite appreciate how tempting they can be. He will never recruit any who've already done any of them, because they're not pure and he can dismiss any claims they make to the contrary as hypocrisy.

(The other two gods' clergy tend to welcome and inaugurate new paladins with "good, clean" versions of at least one or more of the above vices in a big party or a private celebration - the latter especially if they happen to recruit them and marry them to a priest(ess) - precisely to make absolutely sure Ril won't ever get his mitts on them. Note that the other two gods are, themselves, married (god of sun and goddess of moon), have clergy that is of the same sex as they are, and have paladins of the opposite sex. So in reality only the moon goddess has paladins plucked away from Ril, because Ril refuses to have female paladins or male priests. It's quite common for the clergy of one to marry paladins of the other. It's also noteworthy that sometimes the god of the sun DOES pluck a potential paladin away...but such paladins become priests, not paladins, of the sun-god.)


Culturally, paladins of Ril are respected for their idealism and heroism, but pitied for their foolish belief that Ril is going to give them a fair shake. They're also, slightly, feared, because it's generally believed that all of them will die young...or fall. And the fallen ones, it is believed, inevitably become Knights, which retain all the power of a paladin of Ril, but twisted to evil. They are the masters of covens of active, hateful priestesses performing their god's dark work in corrupting and bringing misery to civilization.

In truth, there ARE paladins of Ril who fall but remain good...they just fade away a lot because the pains they suffer from losing their companions (especially the mount) are depressing, and they often have to find some other class to pick up now that they're basically a fighter with no feats. The belief that they die young if they don't fall is only semi-accurate, as well; Ril is an elven god, so "young" is relative, and it IS rather common for paladins to adventure actively until they fall or are killed...because they probably won't ever stop hearing about evil to thwart or good to do, as Ril gives them every opportunity to (fail to) prove their ideals are true.



In short, Ril plays foul, but he gives a good show of a veneer of "fair." His purpose is to break his paladins' spirits and twist them with self-loathing bitterness, not to give them a reason to blame Ril for their failings.

I think Ril needs to be smote and left to ruin on the mountainside.

[Segev]

I think Ril needs to be smote and left to ruin on the mountainside.

Thanks! :smallcool: That means I designed him well. He's supposed to be pathetic, hate-able, and vile. Every time you want to have pity for him, you're supposed to find it swiftly replaced with disgust. He could be a woobie if he weren't such a monstrous jerk about it.

He epitomizes sour grapes self-loathing: he isn't even willing to strive for perfection, so perfection must be a lie and anybody striving for it must not just be ruined, but made to believe they brought that ruin on themselves for daring to strive.

[hector212121]

What does Ril do if you punish evil cruelly though?

Also, what happens when a Palaril and a ril knight meet?

[lord_khaine]

Thanks! That means I designed him well. He's supposed to be pathetic, hate-able, and vile. Every time you want to have pity for him, you're supposed to find it swiftly replaced with disgust. He could be a woobie if he weren't such a monstrous jerk about it.

He epitomizes sour grapes self-loathing: he isn't even willing to strive for perfection, so perfection must be a lie and anybody striving for it must not just be ruined, but made to believe they brought that ruin on themselves for daring to strive.

Yeah, i take my hat off for the that design as well. He really sounds like a horrible monster of the most insidious sort, offering power and forbidden temptations with the same hand towards the most pure souls at the point where they no doubt are most vulnerable.

Edit.
The bit about the Black Unicorn, and using love as a bait towards evil, is especially vile.

[Madokar]

What if your character murdered someone evil? Surely just because they're evil doesn't mean they qualify as enemies if they'd rather stay out of your way.

Go mete out divine justice on some slavers you could simply take into custody or something.

I don't think divine justice qualifies as an evil act of murder, though.

[Madokar]

All I see happening is he's giving your character a divine test, and you as the player a choice between playing the fall or heroically resisting temptation. At its core, it's a classic heroic sacrifice. You or someone else? This should be par for the course when playing a Paladin. Maybe he does want you to die or lose your powers. So what? If you die by refusing to murder, you'll likely be resurrected with a cool new power because you passed the test. Maybe he wants you to plan the "most lawful good murder possible" so that you have something to atone for, or go to trial for. Maybe he wants you to fall or at least flirt with the dark side so he can give you cool new evil powers, before giving you another chance to atone via sacrifice. Maybe there's some other way to solve the corruption and he just wants you to look for it in earnest. Maybe he wants any combination of the above and is letting you choose which one.

I don't think this is a benevolent divinity that's testing me, then. Sarenrae herself said that I have been corrupted by something evil. Iomedae would not stricken me with a foul corruption solely to test my devotion to her tenets.

[hector212121]

I'm sorry, I appear to have forgotten my apostrophes of how your character could justify it.

In any case, someone's only your enemy if they want to hurt you. Any other definition of it with this curse is nonsense, as otherwise the moment you start premeditating they become your 'enemy' and thus give you no murderlife.

[Madokar]

I'm sorry, I appear to have forgotten my apostrophes of how your character could justify it.

In any case, someone's only your enemy if they want to hurt you. Any other definition of it with this curse is nonsense, as otherwise the moment you start premeditating they become your 'enemy' and thus give you no murderlife.

That's what makes it an evil ability.

[Segev]

What does Ril do if you punish evil cruelly though?Depends on the flavor of it. If the paladin is feeling guilty over it, but that it was necessary, Ril usually encourages both acceptance of the necessity and frames it as a realization that the paladin's ideals are impossible. If the paladin isn't feeling guilty over it, Ril will encourage it until he can hit them with the "wham" moment where they realize they've proven themselves to be wicked.

In both cases, it's a tool towards falling, though rarely would it be the final straw by itself.


Also, what happens when a Palaril and a ril knight meet?The knight usually tries to talk the paladin into diving (rather than merely "falling") as a way of "saving" himself from pain and suffering. Knights either get along like great bros or hate each others' guts as a general rule - it depends on the knight, but they're almost invariably strong personalities.

Paladins often try to thwart Knights' plans. And many are idealistic enough to think of trying to redeem their fallen brethren, despite knowing they can't regain their paladinhood. Knights try to avoid killing paladins, because that almost feels like giving those self-righteous, self-deluded fools a victory. They died without realizing the futility and falsehood of their beliefs. But life-or-death or if it would let their scheme succeed, Knights aren't above killing each other or paladins.

And not all paladins are above killing knights. After all, knights ARE willing monsters. Generally, paladins of Ril probably don't kill a knight who's given up, though, any more than they're likely to kill anybody who surrenders. (Yes, Ril encourages the view of LG that says you always accept a surrender, and never kill those who have done so.)


Yeah, i take my hat off for the that design as well. He really sounds like a horrible monster of the most insidious sort, offering power and forbidden temptations with the same hand towards the most pure souls at the point where they no doubt are most vulnerable.

Edit.
The bit about the Black Unicorn, and using love as a bait towards evil, is especially vile.

:smallcool::smallbiggrin:

The unicorn's alignment is usually genuinely Good, as well (though they're enough individuals that this can vary). Even when a Knight has embraced a life of evil and selfishness, he may find himself with his beloved being a reminder of his own once-weakness, or even showing sorrow over the evil he does. She loves him, though, helplessly, so won't willingly get in his way or try to make him feel guilty; most do eventually twist around to the point they value her Knight's goals, letting her empathy wither away. Especially with her Knight's (and his coven's) encouragement.

[Erit]

-Snickersnack-

See, this sounds like a campaign world I'd like to get involved in.

Incidentally, is Riladin the only path to being a Knight?

[Peat]

Segev, that's wonderful.

Madokar, that's not wonderful. I think you're right to be suspicious and while I think the GM's intentions are mostly good, his actions are less so. I'd roll with it for now but be considering my options in case it turns out there's an irrevocable difference in opinions.

[hector212121]

That's what makes it an evil ability.

You're missing my point.

What i'm saying is that any interpretation of it besides "those who i want to kill who don't want to kill me aren't my enemies and thus can be used as murderhealing" is automatically invalid because the murder must be PREMEDITATED, meaning you'd want to kill them.

In other words, unless you can plan to kill someone without triggering the 'doesn't work on enemies' thing, you, well, can't kill someone without triggering that, meaning literally ALL it is is -2 hp/day.

[Madokar]

You're missing my point.

What i'm saying is that any interpretation of it besides "those who i want to kill who don't want to kill me aren't my enemies and thus can be used as murderhealing" is automatically invalid because the murder must be PREMEDITATED, meaning you'd want to kill them.

In other words, unless you can plan to kill someone without triggering the 'doesn't work on enemies' thing, you, well, can't kill someone without triggering that, meaning literally ALL it is is -2 hp/day.

Ah. Well, I don't think GM would pull a stunt like that. Once he puts something down in stone, he sticks by it.

[hector212121]

In which case, you can plan to kill a slaver or the like, right?

It's definitely not QUITE a evil act, right?

Though check your mount/arcane bond, as i said. They could have the corruption or something :O

[Madokar]

In which case, you can plan to kill a slaver or the like, right?

It's definitely not QUITE a evil act, right?

Though check your mount/arcane bond, as i said. They could have the corruption or something :O

But that betrays my values, my heart. Which is a violation of one the tenets of Iomedae's Paladin code.

"I will learn the weight of my sword. Without my heart to guide it, it is worthless-my strength is not is my sword, but in my heart. If I lose my sword, I have lost a tool. If I betray my heart, I have died."

[PrismCat21]

He summed it up as "Right before Might, Think before you Act, and Bros before Foes". There is apparently no room for nuance when you play a paladin. You either are one, or you are not. Above the nuance, a manifestation of divine justice.
So he's basically refused to tell you if an action is acceptable or not, until after you do it.

If you 'either are a paladin, or are not', than your character would know ahead of time if any action they consider would make them fall. The only way your character will know that is if the DM tells 'you'. He's a jerk and is railroading your character into doing what 'he' wants. No if, ands, or buts about it.

His idea of a Paladin is very skewed. Without giving you a list of what they can and cannot do, he is leaving it open to your own interpretation. Your interpretation is the correct one until the time he does give you that list, if he ever actually writes it up that is.

The first time you fell could reasonably be considered a whoopsie moment on his part. Afterwards, it was his job to spell out his own unique limitations, he didn't. I'm sorry you have to deal with this. It sucks.
My advice is to keep playing your character your way. Play him how you personally believe he should act. If he dies, he has an honorable death worthy of any Paladin.
If the DM gives you ANY grief, tell him you need a copy of his own personal rules for Paladins in his game. If the Paladin knows what's not acceptable, their player should as well.

I went on a rant, I know. I'm sorry if you dislike it.

[Madokar]

So he's basically refused to tell you if an action is acceptable or not, until after you do it.

If you 'either are a paladin, or are not', than your character would know ahead of time if any action they consider would make them fall. The only way your character will know that is if the DM tells 'you'. He's a jerk and is railroading your character into doing what 'he' wants. No if, ands, or buts about it.

His idea of a Paladin is very skewed. Without giving you a list of what they can and cannot do, he is leaving it open to your own interpretation. Your interpretation is the correct one until the time he does give you that list, if he ever actually writes it up that is.

The first time you fell could reasonably be considered a whoopsie moment on his part. Afterwards, it was his job to spell out his own unique limitations, he didn't. I'm sorry you have to deal with this. It sucks.
My advice is to keep playing your character your way. Play him how you personally believe he should act. If he dies, he has an honorable death worthy of any Paladin.
If the DM gives you ANY grief, tell him you need a copy of his own personal rules for Paladins in his game. If the Paladin knows what's not acceptable, their player should as well.

I went on a rant, I know. I'm sorry if you dislike it.

I found a feat that I can use to circumvent his rulings and still remain a paladin.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/divine-communion

And don't worry about going on a rant. People seem to do that over the issue.

[Erit]

Because Paladins have this weird underdog thing going on and people like to root for the underdog of any story. And they get upset when the story seems to be comprised of the one they're rooting for constantly getting shat on.

Edit: daggum homophones are gettin' to me in my advanced age.

[Coidzor]

Thanks! :smallcool: That means I designed him well. He's supposed to be pathetic, hate-able, and vile. Every time you want to have pity for him, you're supposed to find it swiftly replaced with disgust. He could be a woobie if he weren't such a monstrous jerk about it.

He epitomizes sour grapes self-loathing: he isn't even willing to strive for perfection, so perfection must be a lie and anybody striving for it must not just be ruined, but made to believe they brought that ruin on themselves for daring to strive.

His portfolio better list That DM.

[Segev]

See, this sounds like a campaign world I'd like to get involved in.That's just the three main gods of the elven pantheon, actually. The big "twist" in the setting is that humans have only just begun to rise up out of being "barbarian tribes" that other races thought practically simian. This is exacerbated by all sentient races to date having a pantheon of progenitor-deities. Humans don't. Coincidentally with the formation of their first cities, they've been developing a strange new power called "psionics."

Dwarves are a race of traders who run massive underground highways that they patrol and police and charge tolls on if you're not a dwarf. Orcs and goblins have a symbiotic society (or pair of societies in symbiosis, more accurately), where orc warlords lead semi-nomadic mercenary and raiding bands that call several cities "home," and orc women run the cities. Goblins are servile creatures beneath everyone's notice...and who also happen to run what passes for logistical and bureaucratic ... everything. Beneath the orcs' notice, you see. Nothing a strong, powerful ruler should care about as long as it gets done. Leave it to the little twerps. Shalrin (halflings by another name) are metallic-dragon worshippers...and are technically a larval form for those creatures (though they breed true and not all shalrin undergo metamorphosis). Kobolds are similar, but for chromatics. Gnomes and trolls share a pantheon, but one's "gods" are the other's "devils," as they're sort of a cain-and-abel pair of related species despite their enormous physical differences.


Incidentally, is Riladin the only path to being a Knight?In that it's the only way anybody knows to. I guess any paladin COULD if they fell and went to Ril and made a good enough case for why they want to embrace his brand of bitter, willful evil. A truly epic evil guy who wanted to embrace Ril's philosophy from the get-go might be able to, as well, but getting Ril's attention is difficult if you merely agree with him. So that'd be a quest in its own right.




Segev, that's wonderful.Thanks!

[Madokar]

Because Paladins have this weird underdog thing going on and people like to root for the underdog of any story. And they get upset when the story seems to be comprised of the one they're rooting for constantly getting shat on.

Edit: daggum homophones are gettin' to me in my advanced age.

Though there might be those who think they need to be brought down a peg.

[Yahzi]

The other was a dramatically overpowered PrC.
That's not a class; that's the plot of an entire novel.

I 'd even write it if I weren't already up to my ears in books I need to write. :smallsmile:

[IntelectPaladin]

Well, this thread is certainly pointing out a rather problematic D.M.
Sadly, I have experience in matters like this.
First off, I'd like to thank PrismCat21 for bringing this forum to my attention. I'll do my best.
Watch as I go on quite a long tangent! And probably crash and burn.
What A G.M's job is, basically, to create and control an entire world, regardless of their own morals.
However their internal ethics stand, however, some lines should not be crossed.
In this case, it seem's the G.M. has forgotten that they don't control the player.
A less-than-considerate viewpoint, no matter the G.M.
I once had to be turned into an undead (that I still controlled) just to survive a sick D.M's wrath.
Now, let's see what I can do to alleviate the issue...
First of, being gone after for sparing an innocent means that you should at-least re-think your current game and D.M,
regardless of circumstances or time invested.
A quote:"My bum has been a bum for a very long time, but I don't have to listen to it."
If it's in-game reasoning that's part of his grounding in his attack on you,
I can easily help there. As a paladin for my entire DnD career, I've had to handle a multitude of situations
like this one.
Your situation is unfair, and frankly it's not healthy for your D.M. to be like this,
and I hope you can or have already figured out better solution than merely coping.
If you need any help by way of reasoning, responses, or arguments, please feel free to message me.
And I don't think that asking someone to ask them for help breaks any rules.
Thank you for reading this, and I hope you have a better day!

[Madokar]

Well, this thread is certainly pointing out a rather problematic D.M.
Sadly, I have experience in matters like this.
First off, I'd like to thank PrismCat21 for bringing this forum to my attention. I'll do my best.
Watch as I go on quite a long tangent! And probably crash and burn.
What A G.M's job is, basically, to create and control an entire world, regardless of their own morals.
However their internal ethics stand, however, some lines should not be crossed.
In this case, it seem's the G.M. has forgotten that they don't control the player.
A less-than-considerate viewpoint, no matter the G.M.
I once had to be turned into an undead (that I still controlled) just to survive a sick D.M's wrath.
Now, let's see what I can do to alleviate the issue...
First of, being gone after for sparing an innocent means that you should at-least re-think your current game and D.M,
regardless of circumstances or time invested.
A quote:"My bum has been a bum for a very long time, but I don't have to listen to it."
If it's in-game reasoning that's part of his grounding in his attack on you,
I can easily help there. As a paladin for my entire DnD career, I've had to handle a multitude of situations
like this one.
Your situation is unfair, and frankly it's not healthy for your D.M. to be like this,
and I hope you can or have already figured out better solution than merely coping.
If you need any help by way of reasoning, responses, or arguments, please feel free to message me.
And I don't think that asking someone to ask them for help breaks any rules.
Thank you for reading this, and I hope you have a better day!

I'd say I'm very close to not having any fun. If he does something like this down the road, then it will be "three strikes, you're out" for him.

For those who don't get the "three strikes" thing, that was his logic for making my paladin fall. In order I:

Performed a coup-de-grace on a kobold that the Shaman put to sleep in the middle of a fight.

Punched an urchin for aiding in pickpocketing the Keys to Hell off my person to sell on the Black Market.

Using one strike of lethal damage against an ally while he was possessed and trying to kill a silver dragon.

He said that if I sought Atonement after each deed, then I wouldn't have fallen. Apparently I have to have Atonement cast on me on a regular basis.

[IntelectPaladin]

I'd say I'm very close to not having any fun. If he does something like this down the road, then it will be "three strikes, you're out" for him.

For those who don't get the "three strikes" thing, that was his logic for making my paladin fall. In order I:

Performed a coup-de-grace on a kobold that the Shaman put to sleep in the middle of a fight.

Punched an urchin for aiding in pickpocketing the Keys to Hell off my person to sell on the Black Market.

Using one strike of lethal damage against an ally while he was possessed and trying to kill a silver dragon.
He said that if I sought Atonement after each deed, then I wouldn't have fallen. Apparently I have to have Atonement cast on me on a regular basis.
Well, time to crack my knuckles and be the lawyer for ethics here.
Let's see...
In the first part, the kobold was still an opponent, who was at the time making every attempt to kill you
and those around you.
While I'd enjoy having taken the kobold alive, it seems that the option wasn't apparent at the time.
While he/she was indeed put to sleep in the middle of the fight he/she was still a major threat, and not just to you.
Had the kobold awakened mid-battle, with your party distracted by other enemies,
the very real possibility that is present is that he/she would have done severe damage to another party member. Your actions prevented likely bodily harm to other party members, in this instance.
Alright, that first strike became a foul ball, on to the next..

One thing that must be absolutely clear: Having the key's to the Underworld Itself for sale is not in any way safe to not just the local area, not just the continent, but the entire planet. Suppose it was purchased by a rather wealthy cult leader?
With consequences such as those in mind,
stopping the thieves willing to put their planet at risk non-lethally is a rather moral result.
What this second false "strike" has for a basis is that urchins are by nature innocent and living an undeserved grade of life.
I'm afraid this isn't the case, as many homeless mug or kill others for their coins.
In this case, his crime being to have put the entire planet in jeopardy, a single non-lethal punch to simply retrieve the keys is, once again, a kinder option, as most adventurer's would've simply killed him. You saved him from himself and his actions, as well as the key.

Phew. That one's a dozy. Alright, time to create one more:

Hoo, boy, this one is disheartening however you look at it.
To start off, what you lethally killed wasn't an ally at the time.
It was as if the ally had been shoved out of their own body, with their corporeal form taken by some unholy filth.What you were attacking was, again, not your ally.

Not unless you could've shoved the unholy filth right back out, which was impossible at the time, as your class is paladin, not cleric.
You were also attempting to save the life of a silver dragon, a chromatic dragon proven to be a force for good.

It's hard to say it, but without a means of forcing the unholy thing out of the ally at that moment, or ensnaring it physically, you were forced into a decision.
The ally's soul likely went into their heaven-based afterlife, which means that there is also the possibility of a revival of the ally, if you have potential influence.
With resolutions such as this possible, and with the outcome being the safety of an innocent life.
As far as I can tell, you didn't do anything evil. (Yes, dragons can be innocent,)

Alright, that's all of them. I hope they make sense.
I also hope that you find a resolution to the situation. I'm glad to have been here to give what help I can.
Remember,
there are hundreds of games and places out there for you if you need them.
A few of them might even be open!
Thank you for reading all of this, and I hope you finally have a better day!

[Madokar]

Well, time to crack my knuckles and be the lawyer for ethics here.
Let's see...
In the first part, the kobold was still an opponent, who was at the time making every attempt to kill you
and those around you.
While I'd enjoy having taken the kobold alive, it seems that the option wasn't apparent at the time.
While he/she was indeed put to sleep in the middle of the fight he/she was still a major threat, and not just to you.
Had the kobold awakened mid-battle, with your party distracted by other enemies,
the very real possibility that is present is that he/she would have done severe damage to another party member. Your actions prevented likely bodily harm to other party members, in this instance.
Alright, that first strike became a foul ball, on to the next..

One thing that must be absolutely clear: Having the key's to the Underworld Itself for sale is not in any way safe to not just the local area, not just the continent, but the entire planet. Suppose it was purchased by a rather wealthy cult leader?
With consequences such as those in mind,
stopping the thieves willing to put their planet at risk non-lethally is a rather moral result.
What this second false "strike" has for a basis is that urchins are by nature innocent and living an undeserved grade of life.
I'm afraid this isn't the case, as many homeless mug or kill others for their coins.
In this case, his crime being to have put the entire planet in jeopardy, a single non-lethal punch to simply retrieve the keys is, once again, a kinder option, as most adventurer's would've simply killed him. You saved him from himself and his actions, as well as the key.

Phew. That one's a dozy. Alright, time to create one more:

Hoo, boy, this one is disheartening however you look at it.
To start off, what you lethally killed wasn't an ally at the time.
It was as if the ally had been shoved out of their own body, with their corporeal form taken by some unholy filth.What you were attacking was, again, not your ally.

Not unless you could've shoved the unholy filth right back out, which was impossible at the time, as your class is paladin, not cleric.
You were also attempting to save the life of a silver dragon, a chromatic dragon proven to be a force for good.

It's hard to say it, but without a means of forcing the unholy thing out of the ally at that moment, or ensnaring it physically, you were forced into a decision.
The ally's soul likely went into their heaven-based afterlife, which means that there is also the possibility of a revival of the ally, if you have potential influence.
With resolutions such as this possible, and with the outcome being the safety of an innocent life.
As far as I can tell, you didn't do anything evil. (Yes, dragons can be innocent,)

Alright, that's all of them. I hope they make sense.
I also hope that you find a resolution to the situation. I'm glad to have been here to give what help I can.
Remember,
there are hundreds of games and places out there for you if you need them.
A few of them might even be open!
Thank you for reading all of this, and I hope you finally have a better day!

Sadly, I failed in securing the keys. I was swarmed by urchins and they made off with the keys. When I was blocked by the remaining urchins from pursuing the proper thieves. That's when I lost my cool and punched one of the urchins with my metal gauntlet. I only staggered him. The main objective now is get all 24 keys back. We've gotten about 10 back by this point.

And I didn't kill my ally. I knocked him out. Which resulted in his Black Blade being destroyed, freeing him from his own possession and corruption. Admittedly, the Silver Dragon wasn't LG. She was LN. But I knew going in she wasn't Evil because I used Detect Evil on her as soon as I saw her. Going into the fight knowing she wasn't Evil, and the general reputation of Silver Dragons, I still feel I made the right call with the knowledge I had at the time.

[stanprollyright]

Sadly, I failed in securing the keys. I was swarmed by urchins and they made off with the keys. When I was blocked by the remaining urchins from pursuing the proper thieves. That's when I lost my cool and punched one of the urchins with my metal gauntlet. I only staggered him. The main objective now is get all 24 keys back. We've gotten about 10 back by this point.

And I didn't kill my ally. I knocked him out. Which resulted in his Black Blade being destroyed, freeing him from his own possession and corruption. Admittedly, the Silver Dragon wasn't LG. She was LN. But I knew going in she wasn't Evil because I used Detect Evil on her as soon as I saw her. Going into the fight knowing she wasn't Evil, and the general reputation of Silver Dragons, I still feel I made the right call with the knowledge I had at the time.

OK, I'll give him the first two "strikes" and the 1st degree murderhealing. I admit he's harsh on these things in general, but not dickishly so.

I already talked about why I think the murderhealing is OK.

Killing a helpless guy strikes me as rather dishonorable no matter which way you slice it. If he's not a threat right now, killing him as opposed to tying him up or something is kind of extreme. Ask if you can do a "nonlethal coup-de-grace" where you hit him real good to make sure he stays down.

The keys: you admitted you lost your cool and punched a kid out of frustration rather than in direct pursuit of your goal. You would have a case in this one, though.

Ally/dragon fiasco: yeah, I got nothing. I don't see what else you could have done.

[hector212121]

Was the Kobold someone who would have to be executed for some crime anyway or just someone doing his job?

[Fizban]

Not even Exalted Good characters are required to take prisoners at every opportunity, because taking literally every combatant prisoner is insane. Executing foes disabled by magic is a standard 1st level available tactic in DnD and does not violate good alignment. If you had the left the kobold alive, someone could have woken him up and returned him to battle to threaten or kill others, and while other combatants are still active one does not have the luxury of time to tie the guy up. The only way this could possibly count as a strike is if the kobold was the last foe of the fight, meaning his failed save ended combat, and the setting makes it clear that tribal humanoids are to be captured and redeemed whenever possible. Somehow I don't think that's the case. This strike is bogus.

Punched an urchin? You struck a blow in anger that could have killed him, but those street urchins are directly threatening others by stealing one of the "keys to hell." This was chaotic (impulsive, reckless, but no permanent harm was done or intended), and while paladins can fall for becoming non-lawful they don't fall just for committing non-lawful actions any more than another lawful character would suddenly shift after "three strikes." This strike is bogus.

You tried to non-lethally subdue an ally when they were mind-controlled? This strike is pants-on-fire bogus. That is literally the exact thing a good character would be doing, even pacificst characters can deal non-lethal damage. Seriously, go look it up, Book of Exalted Deeds 48, Vow of Peace explicitly allows non-lethal damage against living creatures.

In short, your DM is full of it.

[Madokar]

OK, I'll give him the first two "strikes" and the 1st degree murderhealing. I admit he's harsh on these things in general, but not dickishly so.

I already talked about why I think the murderhealing is OK.

Killing a helpless guy strikes me as rather dishonorable no matter which way you slice it. If he's not a threat right now, killing him as opposed to tying him up or something is kind of extreme. Ask if you can do a "nonlethal coup-de-grace" where you hit him real good to make sure he stays down.

The keys: you admitted you lost your cool and punched a kid out of frustration rather than in direct pursuit of your goal. You would have a case in this one, though.

Ally/dragon fiasco: yeah, I got nothing. I don't see what else you could have done.


Was the Kobold someone who would have to be executed for some crime anyway or just someone doing his job?

It's been over a year since we dealt that particular group of kobolds. All I remember was that we were hired by the mayor of a town to retrieve an artifact that was stolen from a temple that was vital to maintaining peace with some sahuagin that were living in a nearby lake. The kobolds turned out to be the ones who stole it.

We were in the middle of a fight, and the Shaman put one Kobold to sleep through a hex. I know that other kobolds were still active in the fight, so I felt eliminating one kobold was a chance to improve the odds in our favour.

[Segev]

If you enjoy the game other than the DM's disagreement with you over whether you're playing "LG enough," and the suspicion is that maybe he just doesn't like paladins, have you considered playing something else? Maybe a fighter, or an Ur-Priest, or anything else that doesn't rely on a god or alignment, so that the DM can tell you you're changing alignments all he likes but it doesn't impact your ability to play?

Is this PF or 3.5? If it's PF, the Magus might be an option; it's sort-of an arcane paladin (in that it's an arcane gish with powers specialized to using magic and combat hand-in-hand).

[Madokar]

If you enjoy the game other than the DM's disagreement with you over whether you're playing "LG enough," and the suspicion is that maybe he just doesn't like paladins, have you considered playing something else? Maybe a fighter, or an Ur-Priest, or anything else that doesn't rely on a god or alignment, so that the DM can tell you you're changing alignments all he likes but it doesn't impact your ability to play?

Is this PF or 3.5? If it's PF, the Magus might be an option; it's sort-of an arcane paladin (in that it's an arcane gish with powers specialized to using magic and combat hand-in-hand).

It's Pathfinder, so the Magus is an option. We just have one in the party already. Otherwise, I would think Inquistor or Warpriest would be a good substitute if pressed to absolutely change my class.

[Segev]

It's Pathfinder, so the Magus is an option. We just have one in the party already. Otherwise, I would think Inquistor or Warpriest would be a good substitute if pressed to absolutely change my class.

I'd avoid anything divine; your GM is likely to view your efforts to play an LG Inquisitor, War Priest, or anything else as a sign that he still needs to put you in "moral binds" and make you lose favor from your divine power source if you fail to find his secret solution.

For now, I suggest sticking with this and seeing where it goes. Don't give in to the temptation. Your DM probably thinks you will because of things like "striking out in anger" at that urchin.

[Madokar]

Just got back from the latest session. After holding a meeting with the local religious leaders and doing extensive research for a few days on what is happening with us, we've identified what has caused our corruptions.

See, when we were raised the first time, something hitched a ride back to the material plane with our souls after they left Pharasma's Boneyard. An incorporeal undead for the Shaman, and a Demon for me. This research and the party Bard revealed a Shaman in the city that could perform a ritual to cleanse our souls of the corruption. The ritual involves a party member entering the corrupted soul and aiding the corrupted in fighting off the malignant agent.

Thing is, both the Shaman's soul and mine were linked since we were raised at the same time with the same ritual. So now we have me, the Shaman, and the Magus wandering around our linked souls, fighting off the corrupting forces.

Our souls are clearly defined. The Shaman's looks like a demi-plane in the form of a decaying forest infested with undead. Mine is a blasted hellscape. Since I'm the one on a timer, we went down the path across the hellscape first. And that's when we found out I wasn't just playing host to one Evil Outsider.

We first fought a pair Sangudaemons, followed by a swarm of infernal rats and two more Sangudaemons. As we trekked further in, we came to the source of my corruption. An Aeshma Demon. Or a Rage Demon, in the common tongue. That's when we called it for the night, but we head in next week, take it out, and then move on the Shaman's soul to purify it.

The fight with the Rage Demon should be fairly easy. I have decent saves to overcome it's nasty spells. I can put the Axiomatic enchantment on my Holy Longsword through my Divine Bond. And then I smite the bastard. That's not counting the Shaman's hexes and the Magi''s buffs.

[Malroth]

meh all the rational people are arguing for discussing things with your DM. Nuts to that lets think up some insane ponzi scheme to solve your problem.

1 find some death row prisoner or some evil orc and a scroll of the resurection method of your choice
2 find a psion or necromancer type and have them use whatever mind swap method they have access to. (magic jar, mind switch Marionette posession etc)
3 swap bodies with the evil victim
4 murder your own body with them in it
5 end the spell leaving yourself the one dead and the briefly dead victim back in their old body
6 get rezzed

[Barstro]

The ritual involves a party member entering the corrupted soul and aiding the corrupted in fighting off the malignant agent.

Sounds like your DM hit it out of the park to me. Are you enjoying this turn of events?

[Segev]

Glad it turned out he was using it as an adventure hook. :smallsmile:

[stanprollyright]

WHAT'D I TELL YA? He wasn't being a **** at all, just giving you some motivation.

[Madokar]

It's just that the whole issue came up after a fall for sketchy reasons. If I hadn't have fallen, then it wouldn't be such a concern.

[Tetsubo 57]

The DM gave his Paladin player a problem with three ways out:
A)Murder innocents and fall.
B)Find the corruption and purge it.
C)Suicide.

Personally, I find this AMAZING. Its a challenge. Yeah, sure, the PC could die, but that's just like any other day in D&D-land. What's interesting is that the DM is putting the player into a mindset where he actually has a temptation to fall, but isn't forcing the fall on him. This is, imho, good DMing, not bad.

You and I have very different definitions of 'good DMing'.

I'd suicide the character and walked away from the game.

[Coidzor]

It's just that the whole issue came up after a fall for sketchy reasons. If I hadn't have fallen, then it wouldn't be such a concern.

Indeed. I'm glad it wasn't a fiasco, but the concern shouldn't have existed in the first place.

[killem2]

How come no DMs have their Paladin's trying to accomplish something equally awesome for a paladin on the good side? Like rescue and convert a bunch of peasants being held as slaves.

This DM in this post is clearly not able to run his own campaign and should have stuck to a railroad.

[Coidzor]

How come no DMs have their Paladin's trying to accomplish something equally awesome for a paladin on the good side? Like rescue and convert a bunch of peasants being held as slaves.

This DM in this post is clearly not able to run his own campaign and should have stuck to a railroad.

Well, that's just typical standard heroing, now isn't it, hardly anything special about now is there?

[killem2]

Well, that's just typical standard heroing, now isn't it, hardly anything special about now is there?

Blue noted.

Of course, I would think great story telling and character building would be pitting a Paladin's code of conduct against something not so easily black and white and certainly not with out a chance for a lesson learned.

With some of the stories that people tell about DMs and Paladins, makes me wonder why they don't carry or find some way to hire or pay for the commune spell on almost a weekly basis lol.

[Barbarian Horde]

No joke, take a stab at his fun. Just make a new character, tell him you end your corruption and refuse to harm the innocent. So by your gods grace till the end you followed your oath. Roll a new character, screw your DM

Option 2 try to become a vampire, and just convert that into fast healing though they are always evil so see option one once more