Optimize This Feat #15: Formation Expert from Complete Warrior p.110

[daremetoidareyo]

I Love Feats. They are little alterations to the rules and they interface with class features in some really fun and strange ways. Sometimes their utility is circumspect and sometimes they just stink. I'm looking at you Battle Dance. However, there is just something really satisfying about the interplay of feats and rules to produce illogical and unintended effects.

What is this?
So this is the "Optimize this feat" discussion, wherein we work together to plumb the clever and amazing uses for feats in ways the designers could have only dreamt of. Arbitrary credit seems to be important to sway people's incentives, so I have devised the following system to award credit to people who help explore the possibilities of how to use a feat. I'm developing this pseudo-contest on the fly, so rules are subject to change.


All participants in the optimization endeavor post directly into the thread. They may post as many times as they want, just like any thread where you volunteer your ideas. After a week or so, the thread will be evaluated and participants will be assigned a score. That score represents how helpful or novel the poster was in their analysis of a feat's uses, abuses, interactions, and limitations. The rubric by which points are assigned to posters is developed below. The poster's who are most helpful will be announced after a week, and have their name highlighted in bold and in a font color other than black! The guest judge will try to remain interactive in the process, because the contest element to me is secondary to extracting the maximum amount of versatility and power out of the feat resource.

Point Allocation Rubric
The following list is not exhaustive of how points will be allocated, as I imagine that there will be weird end cases.

Suggestion of a non-overtly obvious class feature, spell, feat, skill trick, psi-power, magic/psionic item, or monster that interplays with the feat to produce an exaggerated result.

Overt Obviousness will be judged by me, but I will generally allocate points generously, What I am trying to avoid is people suggesting feat interplays that are non-exceptional and thus cluttering the thread with lame and uninteresting things. 1 pt

If the suggestion is particularly powerful or clever, an additional point may be allocated to reward the optimizerly thinking. This decision is mine, although I will be swayed by what seems like genuine "co-signing," where other posters in the thread really glom onto the idea and develop it further.

A small build stub, between 5-12 levels, that includes a small write up of how the feat interplays with a few class features, racial features, spells, powers and feats to produce an effect that is far beyond the scope of what the feat of the week is capable of providing on its own. 5 points. +/- 1 point.

A rather undeveloped stub may only receive 4 points if it is a slightly modified rehash of a previous stub. A rather ingenious stub can earn an extra point. In some cases, you may actually do both! All of these are judgement calls as adjudicated by myself.

A fully functional optimization of the feat that ramps it up to its maximum power level where there is no way to possibly make it more amazing, including a 20 level build that follows the same format as iron chef dishes, but with minimal write up, is worthy of 10-12 points.

As the Chair, I will remain interactive throughout the thread, even suggesting a few builds. Commenting on these is fine and all of the rubric points apply to those as well. This means that the thread is not a totally objective competition.

A display of relevant rules expertise that shapes the discussion is worthy of 0 or 1 point. This is the "squishiest" criteria, and will only be allocated when it corrects part of the conversation that is going too far off the rails. Particularly nasty interchanges about RAW may lead to abdication of this point. Being incorrect isn't an immoral offense, so I want an atmosphere where suggestions are flying but staying generally within the real bounds of dnd play. RAW discussions tend to get a little too personal, and hopefully this arbitrary point system can circumvent that. Plus, seeing as how extensive the rules system is, it is easy for me to get excited about how to make an idea work and get lost about the details.

BIAS
I am not a perfect judge. I prefer mundane to magical. I prefer Tier 3 and below to Tier 2 and up. But I do love me some dysfunction. So optimization that requires a lot of high level spells or powers (anything level 4 or up) will be less impressive to me. Go ahead and make your suggestion, I will try to police these biases in myself, but understand that these are factors that are in play.

Other information
All of that said, I have an exhibited tendency to be more forgiving/rules lax, whereas some of you are far more RAW heavy. I really do appreciate ya'll, so don't be afraid to reign in some of the theory and ground it in what is explicitly allowed. Different tables play the game differently. And this forum tends to highlight super polarized ends of this permissiveness spectrum that spans from "RAW to a fault" - "So ridiculously theoretically unbalanced beyond any DM's willingness to allow". Most play tends to be in the middle, if not a little skewed towards RAW: but not all play. With that in mind, if requested, if you are asked to assume that the theoretical DM handwaves your criticism as a special exception, please update your approach and proceed from there if you would like to continue to parse the possibilities that a feat offers. In this way, we can develop the full spectrum of what a feat can do.

This week's Feat is Formation Expert from Complete Warrior p.110


This endeavor concludes at 11:59PM Eastern Standard Time on November 16th, 2016

Optimize this Feat 1:Wanderer's Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472308-Optimize-This-Feat-1-Wanderer-s-Diplomacy): VAZ
Optimize this Feat 2: Conductivity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473047-Optimize-this-Feat-2-Conductivity-from-Unearthed-Arcana&highlight=Conductivity): ben-zayb
Optimize this Feat 3: Swim-by Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474225-Optimize-this-feat-3-Swim-by-attack-from-Stormwrack): WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476019-Optimize-this-Feat-4-Contagious-Paralysis-from-Libris-Mortis) WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 5: Hammer and Piton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477681-Optimize-this-Feat-5-Hammer-and-Piton-From-Dungeonscape) Zetapup
Optimize this Feat 6: Residual Rebound (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479041-Optimize-this-Feat-6-Residual-Rebound-from-Unearthed-Arcana&p=20493024#post20493024) ben-zayb
Optimize this Feat 7: Mark of Phlegethos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480323-Optimize-this-Feat-7-Mark-of-Phlegethos-from-Fiendish-Codex-2-Tot9H): Darrin
Optimize this Feat 8: Seelie Court Noble Kelir (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492298-Optimize-this-Feat-8-Seelie-Court-Noble-Kelir-(web)): Jowgen
Optimize this Feat 9: Animal Friends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493792-Optimize-this-Feat-9-Races-of-Faerun-s-Animal-friends-p-161): Troacctid
Optimize this Feat 10A: Primary Contact (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495860-Optimize-this-feat-10-Primary-Contact-plus-Einhander-lightning-round&p=21075488#post21075488): Jormengand & WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 10B lightning round: Einhander from PHB2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495860-Optimize-this-feat-10-Primary-Contact-plus-Einhander-lightning-round): Zaq

Optimize this Feat 11: Supremely Confident from Dragon #335 p.88 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496731-Optimize-this-feat-11-Supremely-Confident-from-Dragon-335-p-88&p=21076906): To Be Determined
Optimize this Feat 12: Spirit Sense (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498138-Optimize-this-feat-12-Spirit-Sense-from-Heroes-of-Horror-p-124) from Heroes of Horror p.124: Jormengand
Optimize this Feat #13: Cards Over Swords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?501738-Optimize-this-Feat-13-Cards-over-Swords-from-Three-Dragon-Ante-web-supplement&p=21301495#post21301495) from the Three Dragon Ante Web: Darrin & Morcleon
Optimize this Feat #14: Dual Planes Summons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503445-Optimize-this-Feat-14-Dual-Plane-Summons-from-Dragon-313) from Dragon Magazine #313: To Be Determined

Upcoming Schedule:

Don't post your ideas for these on the wrong competition. Save em. Unleash your brilliance on us.
Optimize this feat #16 Bloodspiked charger from PHB2
Optimize this feat #17: Betrayal of the spirit linked from Dragon #336 with guest judge _____????
Optimize this feat #18: Truebond from DMG2
Optimize this feat #19: Eldritch Corruption from Heroes of Horror p. 122
Optimize this feat #20: Imbued Healing (Complete Champion p.60)
Optimize this feat #21: Create spectral spawn from Dragons of Faerun Web Supplement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070425a) p.6

[daremetoidareyo]

The feat text is below




Formation Expert: Fighter Bonus Feat, Tactical

You are trained at fighting in ranks and files.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6,

Benefit: The Formation Expert feat enables the use of three tactical maneuvers. You gain the benefit of the feat even if you are fighting in formation with allies that do not have this feat.

Lock Shields: To use this maneuver, you must have a ready shield, and adjacent allies on opposite sides of you must have ready shields. You gain a +1 bonus to Armor Class.

Step into the Breach: To use this maneuver, you must be within a single move of an ally who falls in combat, and an ally must occupy every square between you and the fallen comrade. You can immediately take a single move action (as if you had readied an action to do so) to move into the square the fallen ally occupies.

Wall of Polearms: To use this maneuver, you must be wielding a shortspear, longspear, trident, glaive, guisarme, halberd, or ranseur, and you must have adjacent allies wielding weapons identical to yours on opposite sides of you. You gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls.

Special: A fighter may select Formation Expert as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Only one of those has tactical applications, Step into the breach, so we should primarily focus there, unless of course you can find a way to easily fabricate allies on opposite sides of yourself with shields or pokey sticks.

[Venger]

I've always wanted to get in on one of these.

At first blush, a couple of things present themselves:

Dvati seems like it might be handy for this, making the feat come up in combat a little more often.

The shadow double spell, or anything else that produces clones/copies, such as body outside body would also help out.

This feat seems like it'd actually go really well with the unbearably awful tactical soldier prestige class from the miniatures handbook. there's a substantial amount of overlap between what it purports to do and knight, as well.

[Troacctid]

You're almost certainly going to be using either a trident or a shortspear. While you can probably afford an animated shield, three animated shields is a bit prohibitive, and your allies need to have the same weapon as you. So that means you need a one-handed weapon, and since the only one-handed weapons on the list are the trident and the shortspear, that's what you're most likely stuck with if you want to use Lock Shields and Wall of Polearms at the same time.

If your allies are proficient with martial weapons, then the trident is obviously better, but if they only have simple weapons, then it may be worth swallowing the smaller damage dice so that your buddies can attack effectively.

Of course, if you're a neanderthal, then a shortspear is probably going to be better than a trident anyway.

I suggest animate dead as an easy way of getting two allies on either side of you that are capable of wielding weapons. (Skeletons retain the base creature's weapon proficiencies, which is nice.) If you need to get it on a martial character, that can be accomplished with Horned Harbinger, which has very easy prerequisites and lets you cast the spell without any material components starting at 2nd level.

[Venger]

pale master also grants animate dead as a sla, and advances casting, so you could do stuff like summon undead when you needed more people by your side in a pinch or if your normal undead got killed in battle

[daremetoidareyo]

You're almost certainly going to be using either a trident or a shortspear. While you can probably afford an animated shield, three animated shields is a bit prohibitive, and your allies need to have the same weapon as you. So that means you need a one-handed weapon, and since the only one-handed weapons on the list are the trident and the shortspear, that's what you're most likely stuck with if you want to use Lock Shields and Wall of Polearms at the same time.

If your allies are proficient with martial weapons, then the trident is obviously better, but if they only have simple weapons, then it may be worth swallowing the smaller damage dice so that your buddies can attack effectively.

Of course, if you're a neanderthal, then a shortspear is probably going to be better than a trident anyway.

I suggest animate dead as an easy way of getting two allies on either side of you that are capable of wielding weapons. (Skeletons retain the base creature's weapon proficiencies, which is nice.) If you need to get it on a martial character, that can be accomplished with Horned Harbinger, which has very easy prerequisites and lets you cast the spell without any material components starting at 2nd level.

Also, if you get fancy, there is also the spear spikard...from one of the blanks of eberron books.

[Venger]

Also, if you get fancy, there is also the spear spikard...from one of the blanks of eberron books.

magic of eberron p137

[Troacctid]

You can't get into Pale Master until after you already have 3rd level spells. At that point you could presumably just be casting animate dead out of your base class. It also has a d4 HD and poor BAB, as opposed to d8 and average for Horned Harbinger, and the caster level on the animate dead is worse. I think it's much worse on the type of character that will be using this feat.

[daremetoidareyo]

Can combat panache trigger step into the breach?

[Troacctid]

I don't think "Falls" means "Dies" here, if that's what you mean. For example, if nothing else, it should apply to an ally knocked unconscious by nonlethal damage.

And of course I'm sure Jormengand will be around momentarily to tell us about this feat's interaction with gravity. :smalltongue:

[daremetoidareyo]

I don't think "Falls" means "Dies" here, if that's what you mean. For example, if nothing else, it should apply to an ally knocked unconscious by nonlethal damage.

And of course I'm sure Jormengand will be around momentarily to tell us about this feat's interaction with gravity. :smalltongue:

Can the feat tell the difference between fake dying and actually having less than 1 hp? And if not, how to exploit?

[Troacctid]

Use the free movement to get full attacks? *Shrug* That's what melee characters usually do with free movement.

[Jormengand]

I don't think "Falls" means "Dies" here, if that's what you mean. For example, if nothing else, it should apply to an ally knocked unconscious by nonlethal damage.

And of course I'm sure Jormengand will be around momentarily to tell us about this feat's interaction with gravity. :smalltongue:

You called?

I'm not seeing anything massively interesting about the first or third abilities. +1 AC and +2 attack is well and good, but not massively optimisable. I'm more thinking about the second one.

Now, as you know, creatures who are affected by gravity fall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#falling), and take damage unless the fall is five feet or less. Now, suppose you jump. You are your own ally.You must take a move action (as though you actually had one) to move into your own space, which is also any space you could possibly move into (because any space you move into is your space by definition), and of course all zero of the spaces between you and yourself will be occupied by allies. At the end of your move action, jump again, and fall again. Boom, infinite movement.

Also, because this ability allows multiple creatures to move into the same space simultaneously, the teleporting mermaid trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19424498&postcount=475) can be used to re-organise the whole formation in a circle around the fallen soldier.

At the very least, you can take a move action to move in your own square, meaning you can get up from prone if you fall. Of course, dropping prone is a free action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#dropProne), so use that infinite dropping and getting up however you like. Maybe you want to provoke infinite attacks of opportunity from an ally with Improved Combat Reflexes and some kind of on-hit healing or equivalent ToB nonsense.



Will that do, Troa? :smalltongue:

[WhamBamSam]

Can the feat tell the difference between fake dying and actually having less than 1 hp? And if not, how to exploit?


Use the free movement to get full attacks? *Shrug* That's what melee characters usually do with free movement.Maybe use it to charge up Tornado Throw? If you're willing to kill/can non-lethally throw your minions then you might be able to do it as part of your Tornado Throw itself. Whenever you need some extra movement to get to a point, chuck a nearby minion onto said point (within the limitations of the feat), where it will 'drop' (by whatever definition we take drop to mean in this context), then move to that square. I'm not sure off the top of my head how readied action rules work when the readied action is triggered in the middle of your own action, though, so that might not quite work the way I want it to, though you could still use the feat to charge up movement beforehand.

[daremetoidareyo]

Breach with flight, how to make work? Bonus if you can figure out drogue wing cheese.

[Jormengand]

Breach with flight, how to make work? Bonus if you can figure out drogue wing cheese.

Creatures can fall during their flight, meaning that they can get extra move actions each time.

[Bucky]

Is the "you" in "You gain" singular or plural? The bonuses get a lot more interesting when the allies receive them too. But the feat text is genuinely ambiguous.

----
RAW abuse time:
*An ally 'falls' if they deliberately drop prone.
*Serpentine creatures can switch between prone and standing at will, at no action cost.
*There is no once per turn limit on the free moves.
*A generous interpretation of "an ally must occupy every square" allows chaining Fine-sized allies.
*You don't need to be in combat yourself (but the ally does)

Conclusion:
Instant courier service using an animated object railroad that ineffectively punches snakes.

[Darrin]

First, let's look at some other feats that involve standing in a formation:

Phalanx Fighting (Complete Warrior). The first option stacks a +1 untyped AC bonus with Formation Expert if we are wielding a feycraft shortspear or trident with a heavy shield. Actually, feycraft might not work, as it's only considered light for damage and for Weapon Finesse. However, there's a work-around, as Phalanx Fighting doesn't specify that we have to attack with a light weapon, we just need to "use" it. Armor spikes are light weapons and we can "use" them just by wearing them. So non-feycraft shortspears and tridents are back on the table. For the second option, if we are within 5' of an ally with the same weapon/shield combo, we can form a shield wall for an additional +2 AC bonus and a +1 on reflex saves.

Shield Wall (Heroes of Battle). Increases our shield bonus by +2 when an adjacent ally also has a shield.

There's also a Shieldmate feat in the Miniatures Handbook, but it's stupid and useless.

Assuming everybody has Formation Expert, Phalanx Fighting, Shield Wall, and the correct weapons, everybody gets: +6 AC, +1 on Ref saves, +2 on attack rolls.

Now, let's see what we can do about creating some allies. Some methods to create duplicates of yourself:

Trickery Devotion. You can take this multiple times, or activate it multiple times per day if you have enough Turn Undead uses (Nightsticks, anyone?).

Body Outside Body. The ultimate Formation Expert would be, of course, rockdeworld's Santa (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14384481&postcount=71) build from Iron Chef XL. He has 8640 clones when delivering presents, or 904 clones flying in formation in a 30' radius sphere when breaking the sound barrier.

Something else Santa uses, but not necessarily on himself: simulacrum abuse. Lesser planar binding used on a mirror mephit, or a Spellthief casting summon mirror mephit and then stealing the SLA, could create a bunch of duplicates. And of course, spellclocks/magical traps spamming ice assassin could be a thing.

MoMF 8 can create a large number of duplicates via the Splitting Ooze trick. If you need a build, you could use my Black Sparrow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21197986&postcount=91) build from Iron Chef LXXX.

Now, for a build... I think we can use T'chub-T'chub (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18981080&postcount=23), but instead of going big we're going to go small with compression and pick up Swarm Fighting (Complete Warrior).

1) Thri-Kreen 1. Feat: Hidden Talent (compression).
2) Thri-Kreen 2.
3) Monk 1. Feat: Swarm Fighting. Bonus: Dodge.
4) Monk 2. Bonus: Mobility.
5) Monk 3.
6) Monk 4. Feat: Formation Expert.
7) Monk 5.
8) Monk 6. Bonus: Improved Trip.
9) Monk 7. Feat: Mantis Leap.
10) Totemist 1. Sphinx Claws soulmeld.
11) Totemist 2. Totem Chakra: Girallon Arms.
12) Totemist 3. Feat: Open Least Chakra (Hands).

"Death Centipede"
1. Duplicate a bunch of these thri-kreen. Since they need to be within a move action of each other... thri-kreen have a speed of 40', so let's say we've got 8 standing in a line with an opponent at one end of the line. Actually, we need an anchor point, so let's add Bug#9 to just stand next to the target.
2. Everybody compresses to small-size.
3. Bug#1 in line executes a 15' high jump, falling on top of the target. Mantis Leap turns this into a charge attack. 11 attacks = 2 unarmed strikes, 8 claws, 1 bite.
4. Bug#2 through Bug#8 activates Step into the Breach to move to Bug#1's location. As part of their movement, they also make a Jump check (long jump or whatever) and Mantis Leap turns this into a charge attack. Swarmfighting gives them a morale bonus on attacks (up to +7). 11 + 77 = 88 attacks.
5. Bug#2, who hasn't taken his turn yet, executes a 15' high jump, falling on top of the target. Mantis Leap turns this into a charge. Bug#9 is still standing next to the target, and Bug#2 falls into an adjacent square, so this still counts as a "line". Bug#1 and Bug#3 through Bug#8 all activate Step into the Breach. Since Mantis Leap doesn't specify a minimum jump distance, they can jump in place or 5' into the air or whatever. 88 + 88 = 176 attacks.
7. Bug#3 takes his turn to jump, etc. 176 + 88 = 264 attacks.
8. Bug#4 takes his turn to jump, etc. 264 + 88 = 352 attacks.
9. Bug#5 takes his turn to jump, etc. 352 + 88 = 440 attacks.
10. Bug#6 takes his turn to jump, etc. 440 + 88 = 528 attacks.
11. Bug#7 takes his turn to jump, etc. 528 + 88 = 616 attacks.
12. Bug#8 takes his turn to jump, etc. 616 + 88 = 704 attacks.
13. Bug#9 puts on his sundark goggles and says, "Oh, hey... sorry about that. Guess we're all a little 'jumpy' today."

[daremetoidareyo]

Is the "you" in "You gain" singular or plural? The bonuses get a lot more interesting when the allies receive them too. But the feat text is genuinely ambiguous.

----
RAW abuse time:
*An ally 'falls' if they deliberately drop prone.
*Serpentine creatures can switch between prone and standing at will, at no action cost.
*There is no once per turn limit on the free moves.
*A generous interpretation of "an ally must occupy every square" allows chaining Fine-sized allies.
*You don't need to be in combat yourself (but the ally does)

Conclusion:
Instant courier service using an animated object railroad that ineffectively punches snakes.

You got a source on that serpentine creature bit?

[daremetoidareyo]

First, let's look at some other feats that involve standing in a formation:

Phalanx Fighting (Complete Warrior). The first option stacks a +1 untyped AC bonus with Formation Expert if we are wielding a feycraft shortspear or trident with a heavy shield. Actually, feycraft might not work, as it's only considered light for damage and for Weapon Finesse. However, there's a work-around, as Phalanx Fighting doesn't specify that we have to attack with a light weapon, we just need to "use" it. Armor spikes are light weapons and we can "use" them just by wearing them. So non-feycraft shortspears and tridents are back on the table. For the second option, if we are within 5' of an ally with the same weapon/shield combo, we can form a shield wall for an additional +2 AC bonus and a +1 on reflex saves.

Shield Wall (Heroes of Battle). Increases our shield bonus by +2 when an adjacent ally also has a shield.

There's also a Shieldmate feat in the Miniatures Handbook, but it's stupid and useless.

Assuming everybody has Formation Expert, Phalanx Fighting, Shield Wall, and the correct weapons, everybody gets: +6 AC, +1 on Ref saves, +2 on attack rolls.

Now, let's see what we can do about creating some allies. Some methods to create duplicates of yourself:

Trickery Devotion. You can take this multiple times, or activate it multiple times per day if you have enough Turn Undead uses (Nightsticks, anyone?).

Body Outside Body. The ultimate Formation Expert would be, of course, rockdeworld's Santa (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14384481&postcount=71) build from Iron Chef XL. He has 8640 clones when delivering presents, or 904 clones flying in formation in a 30' radius sphere when breaking the sound barrier.

Something else Santa uses, but not necessarily on himself: simulacrum abuse. Lesser planar binding used on a mirror mephit, or a Spellthief casting summon mirror mephit and then stealing the SLA, could create a bunch of duplicates. And of course, spellclocks/magical traps spamming ice assassin could be a thing.

MoMF 8 can create a large number of duplicates via the Splitting Ooze trick. If you need a build, you could use my Black Sparrow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21197986&postcount=91) build from Iron Chef LXXX.

Now, for a build... I think we can use T'chub-T'chub (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18981080&postcount=23), but instead of going big we're going to go small with compression and pick up Swarm Fighting (Complete Warrior).

1) Thri-Kreen 1. Feat: Hidden Talent (compression).
2) Thri-Kreen 2.
3) Monk 1. Feat: Swarm Fighting. Bonus: Dodge.
4) Monk 2. Bonus: Mobility.
5) Monk 3.
6) Monk 4. Feat: Formation Expert.
7) Monk 5.
8) Monk 6. Bonus: Improved Trip.
9) Monk 7. Feat: Mantis Leap.
10) Totemist 1. Sphinx Claws soulmeld.
11) Totemist 2. Totem Chakra: Girallon Arms.
12) Totemist 3. Feat: Open Least Chakra (Hands).

"Death Centipede"
1. Duplicate a bunch of these thri-kreen. Since they need to be within a move action of each other... thri-kreen have a speed of 40', so let's say we've got 8 standing in a line with an opponent at one end of the line. Actually, we need an anchor point, so let's add Bug#9 to just stand next to the target.
2. Everybody compresses to small-size.
3. Bug#1 in line executes a 15' high jump, falling on top of the target. Mantis Leap turns this into a charge attack. 11 attacks = 2 unarmed strikes, 8 claws, 1 bite.
4. Bug#2 through Bug#8 activates Step into the Breach to move to Bug#1's location. As part of their movement, they also make a Jump check (long jump or whatever) and Mantis Leap turns this into a charge attack. Swarmfighting gives them a morale bonus on attacks (up to +7). 11 + 77 = 88 attacks.
5. Bug#2, who hasn't taken his turn yet, executes a 15' high jump, falling on top of the target. Mantis Leap turns this into a charge. Bug#9 is still standing next to the target, and Bug#2 falls into an adjacent square, so this still counts as a "line". Bug#1 and Bug#3 through Bug#8 all activate Step into the Breach. Since Mantis Leap doesn't specify a minimum jump distance, they can jump in place or 5' into the air or whatever. 88 + 88 = 176 attacks.
7. Bug#3 takes his turn to jump, etc. 176 + 88 = 264 attacks.
8. Bug#4 takes his turn to jump, etc. 264 + 88 = 352 attacks.
9. Bug#5 takes his turn to jump, etc. 352 + 88 = 440 attacks.
10. Bug#6 takes his turn to jump, etc. 440 + 88 = 528 attacks.
11. Bug#7 takes his turn to jump, etc. 528 + 88 = 616 attacks.
12. Bug#8 takes his turn to jump, etc. 616 + 88 = 704 attacks.
13. Bug#9 puts on his sundark goggles and says, "Oh, hey... sorry about that. Guess we're all a little 'jumpy' today."

Lol. I'm using this on my players next week. I'll target an npc first to let them see this marvelousness in action. (We have a raw abuse competition of sorts)

[Venger]

Is the "you" in "You gain" singular or plural? The bonuses get a lot more interesting when the allies receive them too. But the feat text is genuinely ambiguous.

----
RAW abuse time:
*An ally 'falls' if they deliberately drop prone.
*Serpentine creatures can switch between prone and standing at will, at no action cost.
*There is no once per turn limit on the free moves.
*A generous interpretation of "an ally must occupy every square" allows chaining Fine-sized allies.
*You don't need to be in combat yourself (but the ally does)

Conclusion:
Instant courier service using an animated object railroad that ineffectively punches snakes.

Can serpentine creatures actually be tripped?

I can't remember "serpentine creatures" being called out in the trip rules. I know if you've got more than 2 legs or are a dwarf you get a bonus, and serpentine creatures are called out in soulmeld selection and in the rules for caltrops, but I don't know if they have special rules for tripping.

I thought I remembered seeing something saying "the gm should decide certain monsters can't be tripped" like a remorhaz or purple worm, but I can find no actual support for this in either the phb or rules compendium.

[Bucky]

Serpentine creatures are called out in the Prone condition for being able to make themselves prone.

---
I got the 'can become prone at will' from here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413407-Dysfunctional-Rules-VII-Mordenkainen-s-Dysfunction&p=19358112#post19358112). I don't know what the primary source is.

[daremetoidareyo]

Serpentine creatures are called out in the Prone condition for being able to make themselves prone.

---
I got the 'can become prone at will' from here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413407-Dysfunctional-Rules-VII-Mordenkainen-s-Dysfunction&p=19358112#post19358112). I don't know what the primary source is.

So far the best that I can find is that snakes can't be tripped unless climbing or flying: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a

[Venger]

Serpentine creatures are called out in the Prone condition for being able to make themselves prone.

---
I got the 'can become prone at will' from here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413407-Dysfunctional-Rules-VII-Mordenkainen-s-Dysfunction&p=19358112#post19358112). I don't know what the primary source is.

can you give a page number? I can't find that in my phb.


So far the best that I can find is that snakes can't be tripped unless climbing or flying: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a

(mandatory "rules of the game articles aren't RAW" comment)

[Vaz]

This seems like a rather crazy feat for low-level mass combat to represent an elite unit (like maximum 6th level). Like Spartans vs an Orc Horde.

[daremetoidareyo]

Ok. Let's assume that "falling" in this regards requires dropping a creature to 0 hp or being tripped rather than voluntarily going prone.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Ok. Let's assume that "falling" in this regards requires dropping a creature to 0 hp or being tripped rather than voluntarily going prone.
Hmmm. Readied actions interrupt the triggering action, do they not? So you would technically be able to step into the breach right before your ally falls. If you have a useful aura, such as consumptive field, this might allow you to benefit from their death. In fact, as undead lord of great power, you might be able to heal off their death, by using Destruction Retribution undead minions.

[Darrin]

Ok. Let's assume that "falling" in this regards requires dropping a creature to 0 hp or being tripped rather than voluntarily going prone.

Feh. Add rogue 2 to all those thri-keen monks for the Feign Death ACF (Exemplars of Evil).

Or how about a Paladin level? Any easy way to get atonement down to a swift/free action? (Greater Glyph Seal, maybe?)

[WhamBamSam]

Feh. Add rogue 2 to all those thri-keen monks for the Feign Death ACF (Exemplars of Evil).

Or how about a Paladin level? Any easy way to get atonement down to a swift/free action? (Greater Glyph Seal, maybe?)A Spellsword or Ordained Champ that can cast it can channel it into a weapon as a move action (so with Hustle it could get down to a swift). You still need to actually stab the Fallen Paladin with the Blade of Atonement, but the act that causes the fall also provokes an AoO you won't have to spend an action on that.

[daremetoidareyo]

optimizing making your paladins allies "fall" as in lose the benefits of their class features is also still on the table...

[Jormengand]

optimizing making your paladins allies "fall" as in lose the benefits of their class features is also still on the table...

Question: is that terminology actually used in game? Either way, I don't think it would be as easy to do repeatedly as either of the other meanings of falling.

[Darrin]

Question: is that terminology actually used in game? Either way, I don't think it would be as easy to do repeatedly as either of the other meanings of falling.

Yes. DMG p. 183:



Fallen Paladins

Blackguards who have levels in the paladin class (that is to say, are now ex-paladins) gain extra abilities the more levels of paladin they have. Those who have tasted the light of goodness and justice and turned away make the foulest villains.

A fallen paladin who becomes a blackguard gains all of the following abilities that apply, according to the number of paladin levels the character has.


So it is a defined game term.

[daremetoidareyo]

Last Call before I finish this one up.

I'll probably start judging tomorrow night.


-----
Also, there's two drag mag feats with no judging, feel free to go back and render some verdicts on them.

[Jormengand]

Yes. DMG p. 183:



So it is a defined game term.

No, being Fallen is a game term, and an adjective, but to fall, as in to become Fallen, is not, and I'm pretty sure its popularity came after (or probably even consequent to) the DMG being written.

[daremetoidareyo]

Dvati seems like it might be handy for this, making the feat come up in combat a little more often.

The shadow double spell, or anything else that produces clones/copies, such as body outside body would also help out.

This feat seems like it'd actually go really well with the unbearably awful tactical soldier prestige class from the miniatures handbook. there's a substantial amount of overlap between what it purports to do and knight, as well.


pale master also grants animate dead as a sla, and advances casting, so you could do stuff like summon undead when you needed more people by your side in a pinch or if your normal undead got killed in battle

dvati 1 point
Shadow double 1 point
Tactical soldier is pretty bad. 1 point
pale master 1 point


You're almost certainly going to be using either a trident or a shortspear. While you can probably afford an animated shield, three animated shields is a bit prohibitive, and your allies need to have the same weapon as you. So that means you need a one-handed weapon, and since the only one-handed weapons on the list are the trident and the shortspear, that's what you're most likely stuck with if you want to use Lock Shields and Wall of Polearms at the same time.

If your allies are proficient with martial weapons, then the trident is obviously better, but if they only have simple weapons, then it may be worth swallowing the smaller damage dice so that your buddies can attack effectively.

Of course, if you're a neanderthal, then a shortspear is probably going to be better than a trident anyway.

I suggest animate dead as an easy way of getting two allies on either side of you that are capable of wielding weapons. (Skeletons retain the base creature's weapon proficiencies, which is nice.) If you need to get it on a martial character, that can be accomplished with Horned Harbinger, which has very easy prerequisites and lets you cast the spell without any material components starting at 2nd level.


You can't get into Pale Master until after you already have 3rd level spells. At that point you could presumably just be casting animate dead out of your base class. It also has a d4 HD and poor BAB, as opposed to d8 and average for Horned Harbinger, and the caster level on the animate dead is worse. I think it's much worse on the type of character that will be using this feat.


I don't think "Falls" means "Dies" here, if that's what you mean. For example, if nothing else, it should apply to an ally knocked unconscious by nonlethal damage.

And of course I'm sure Jormengand will be around momentarily to tell us about this feat's interaction with gravity. :smalltongue:


Use the free movement to get full attacks? *Shrug* That's what melee characters usually do with free movement.

Harbinger: 2 points
3 Animated shields: 1 point
Proficiency analysis: 1 point
Free full attacks: Maybe make really weak necrocarnum zombies or something so that the fall easily?? 1 point
Fall =/= die: 2 points!!


You called?

I'm not seeing anything massively interesting about the first or third abilities. +1 AC and +2 attack is well and good, but not massively optimisable. I'm more thinking about the second one.

Now, as you know, creatures who are affected by gravity fall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#falling), and take damage unless the fall is five feet or less. Now, suppose you jump. You are your own ally.You must take a move action (as though you actually had one) to move into your own space, which is also any space you could possibly move into (because any space you move into is your space by definition), and of course all zero of the spaces between you and yourself will be occupied by allies. At the end of your move action, jump again, and fall again. Boom, infinite movement.[quote]

1 point for jump shenanigans and another 2 points for cheese sauce

[QUOTE=Jormengand;21365806]Also, because this ability allows multiple creatures to move into the same space simultaneously, the teleporting mermaid trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19424498&postcount=475) can be used to re-organise the whole formation in a circle around the fallen soldier.

At the very least, you can take a move action to move in your own square, meaning you can get up from prone if you fall. Of course, dropping prone is a free action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#dropProne), so use that infinite dropping and getting up however you like. Maybe you want to provoke infinite attacks of opportunity from an ally with Improved Combat Reflexes and some kind of on-hit healing or equivalent ToB nonsense.


Creatures can fall during their flight, meaning that they can get extra move actions each time.

teleporting mermaid: 1 point
Dropping prone: 1 point +1 point clever
Falling during flight, +1 point.


Maybe use it to charge up Tornado Throw? If you're willing to kill/can non-lethally throw your minions then you might be able to do it as part of your Tornado Throw itself. Whenever you need some extra movement to get to a point, chuck a nearby minion onto said point (within the limitations of the feat), where it will 'drop' (by whatever definition we take drop to mean in this context), then move to that square. I'm not sure off the top of my head how readied action rules work when the readied action is triggered in the middle of your own action, though, so that might not quite work the way I want it to, though you could still use the feat to charge up movement beforehand.

tornado throw: 1 point...make that 2 points
actually, if your minion can take the damage, you can use this to kill everyone you can see...


Is the "you" in "You gain" singular or plural? The bonuses get a lot more interesting when the allies receive them too. But the feat text is genuinely ambiguous.

----
RAW abuse time:
*An ally 'falls' if they deliberately drop prone.
*Serpentine creatures can switch between prone and standing at will, at no action cost.
*There is no once per turn limit on the free moves.
*A generous interpretation of "an ally must occupy every square" allows chaining Fine-sized allies.
*You don't need to be in combat yourself (but the ally does)

Conclusion:
Instant courier service using an animated object railroad that ineffectively punches snakes.

chaining fine sized allies: 1 point
Don't need to be in combat yourself (Cards over SWORDS!): 1 point
Can't find the serpent thing in 3.5 rules.


First, let's look at some other feats that involve standing in a formation:

Phalanx Fighting (Complete Warrior). The first option stacks a +1 untyped AC bonus with Formation Expert if we are wielding a feycraft shortspear or trident with a heavy shield. Actually, feycraft might not work, as it's only considered light for damage and for Weapon Finesse. However, there's a work-around, as Phalanx Fighting doesn't specify that we have to attack with a light weapon, we just need to "use" it. Armor spikes are light weapons and we can "use" them just by wearing them. So non-feycraft shortspears and tridents are back on the table. For the second option, if we are within 5' of an ally with the same weapon/shield combo, we can form a shield wall for an additional +2 AC bonus and a +1 on reflex saves.

Shield Wall (Heroes of Battle). Increases our shield bonus by +2 when an adjacent ally also has a shield.

There's also a Shieldmate feat in the Miniatures Handbook, but it's stupid and useless.

Assuming everybody has Formation Expert, Phalanx Fighting, Shield Wall, and the correct weapons, everybody gets: +6 AC, +1 on Ref saves, +2 on attack rolls.

2 points for legworking that out.


Now, let's see what we can do about creating some allies. Some methods to create duplicates of yourself:

Trickery Devotion. You can take this multiple times, or activate it multiple times per day if you have enough Turn Undead uses (Nightsticks, anyone?).

Body Outside Body. The ultimate Formation Expert would be, of course, rockdeworld's Santa (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14384481&postcount=71) build from Iron Chef XL. He has 8640 clones when delivering presents, or 904 clones flying in formation in a 30' radius sphere when breaking the sound barrier.

Something else Santa uses, but not necessarily on himself: simulacrum abuse. Lesser planar binding used on a mirror mephit, or a Spellthief casting summon mirror mephit and then stealing the SLA, could create a bunch of duplicates. And of course, spellclocks/magical traps spamming ice assassin could be a thing.

MoMF 8 can create a large number of duplicates via the Splitting Ooze trick. If you need a build, you could use my Black Sparrow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21197986&postcount=91) build from Iron Chef LXXX.

4 points for multiplicatio of force.


Now, for a build... I think we can use T'chub-T'chub (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18981080&postcount=23), but instead of going big we're going to go small with compression and pick up Swarm Fighting (Complete Warrior).

1) Thri-Kreen 1. Feat: Hidden Talent (compression).
2) Thri-Kreen 2.
3) Monk 1. Feat: Swarm Fighting. Bonus: Dodge.
4) Monk 2. Bonus: Mobility.
5) Monk 3.
6) Monk 4. Feat: Formation Expert.
7) Monk 5.
8) Monk 6. Bonus: Improved Trip.
9) Monk 7. Feat: Mantis Leap.
10) Totemist 1. Sphinx Claws soulmeld.
11) Totemist 2. Totem Chakra: Girallon Arms.
12) Totemist 3. Feat: Open Least Chakra (Hands).

"Death Centipede"
1. Duplicate a bunch of these thri-kreen. Since they need to be within a move action of each other... thri-kreen have a speed of 40', so let's say we've got 8 standing in a line with an opponent at one end of the line. Actually, we need an anchor point, so let's add Bug#9 to just stand next to the target.
2. Everybody compresses to small-size.
3. Bug#1 in line executes a 15' high jump, falling on top of the target. Mantis Leap turns this into a charge attack. 11 attacks = 2 unarmed strikes, 8 claws, 1 bite.
4. Bug#2 through Bug#8 activates Step into the Breach to move to Bug#1's location. As part of their movement, they also make a Jump check (long jump or whatever) and Mantis Leap turns this into a charge attack. Swarmfighting gives them a morale bonus on attacks (up to +7). 11 + 77 = 88 attacks.
5. Bug#2, who hasn't taken his turn yet, executes a 15' high jump, falling on top of the target. Mantis Leap turns this into a charge. Bug#9 is still standing next to the target, and Bug#2 falls into an adjacent square, so this still counts as a "line". Bug#1 and Bug#3 through Bug#8 all activate Step into the Breach. Since Mantis Leap doesn't specify a minimum jump distance, they can jump in place or 5' into the air or whatever. 88 + 88 = 176 attacks.
7. Bug#3 takes his turn to jump, etc. 176 + 88 = 264 attacks.
8. Bug#4 takes his turn to jump, etc. 264 + 88 = 352 attacks.
9. Bug#5 takes his turn to jump, etc. 352 + 88 = 440 attacks.
10. Bug#6 takes his turn to jump, etc. 440 + 88 = 528 attacks.
11. Bug#7 takes his turn to jump, etc. 528 + 88 = 616 attacks.
12. Bug#8 takes his turn to jump, etc. 616 + 88 = 704 attacks.
13. Bug#9 puts on his sundark goggles and says, "Oh, hey... sorry about that. Guess we're all a little 'jumpy' today."

10 points +1 point for optimization on a favorite build.

I will finish the tally up later tonight.

[daremetoidareyo]

This seems like a rather crazy feat for low-level mass combat to represent an elite unit (like maximum 6th level). Like Spartans vs an Orc Horde.

agreed.


Hmmm. Readied actions interrupt the triggering action, do they not? So you would technically be able to step into the breach right before your ally falls. If you have a useful aura, such as consumptive field, this might allow you to benefit from their death. In fact, as undead lord of great power, you might be able to heal off their death, by using Destruction Retribution undead minions.

2 points + 1 undead point


Feh. Add rogue 2 to all those thri-keen monks for the Feign Death ACF (Exemplars of Evil).

Or how about a Paladin level? Any easy way to get atonement down to a swift/free action? (Greater Glyph Seal, maybe?)

+1 eoe feign death
+1 paladin


A Spellsword or Ordained Champ that can cast it can channel it into a weapon as a move action (so with Hustle it could get down to a swift). You still need to actually stab the Fallen Paladin with the Blade of Atonement, but the act that causes the fall also provokes an AoO you won't have to spend an action on that.


optimizing making your paladins allies "fall" as in lose the benefits of their class features is also still on the table...

I am still waiting for the paladin fall and atonement movement engine build...

whambam: 2 points for analysis


Question: is that terminology actually used in game? Either way, I don't think it would be as easy to do repeatedly as either of the other meanings of falling.

rules clarification 1 point


Yes. DMG p. 183:
So it is a defined game term.

rules clarification 1 pt.

[daremetoidareyo]

Alright, here it is, the final tally:

ExLibrisMortis: 3
Darrin: 2+1+2+4+11: 20
WhamBamSam: 2+2: 4
Jormengand: 1+7: 8
Venger: 4
Troacctid: 7
Bucky: 2

It looks like the optimizing champ for Formation Expert is Darrin.

Your prize is seeing your name in the most coworkingest fonts: Fixedsys in the most cooperative color: Brown? Underlined, because that underscore allows space for allied letters to move around.

Darrin

I'll update the scoreboard on optimize this feat #16. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?506408-Optimize-this-Feat-16-Bloodspiked-Charger-from-PHB2&p=21403009)

[Darrin]

agreed.
I am still waiting for the paladin fall and atonement movement engine build...


If you add a level of Paladin to the thri-kreen, it should still work pretty much the same. And if we add Emissary of Barachiel 5 on top of that, they can use Calling (Su) 5/day to duplicate the effects of an Atonement. So your build:

Thri-Kreen 2/Monk 7/Totemist 3/Paladin 1/Emissary of Barachiel 5

1) Thri-Kreen 1. Feat: Hidden Talent (compression). Flaw: Sacred Vow. Flaw: Vow of Poverty.
2) Thri-Kreen 2. Exalted: Intuitive Attack.
3) Monk 1. Feat: Swarm Fighting. Bonus: Power Attack.
4) Monk 2. Bonus: IBR. Exalted: Touch of Golden Ice.
5) Monk 3.
6) Monk 4. Feat: Formation Expert. Exalted: Nymph's Kiss.
7) Monk 5.
8) Monk 6. Bonus: Improved Trip. Exalted: Words of Creation.
9) Monk 7. Feat: Mantis Leap.
10) Totemist 1. Sphinx Claws soulmeld. Exalted: Sanctify Natural Attack.
11) Totemist 2. Totem Chakra: Girallon Arms.
12) Totemist 3. Feat: Open Least Chakra (Hands). Exalted: Servant of the Heavens.
13) Paladin 1.
14) Emissary of Barachiel 1. Exalted: Exalted Smite.
15) Emissary of Barachiel 2. Feat: Awesome Smite.
16) Emissary of Barachiel 3. Exalted: Nimbus of Light.
17) Emissary of Barachiel 4.
18) Emissary of Barachiel 5. Feat: Extra Smiting. Exalted: Holy Radiance.

So we pick a deity that is particularly aggressive with enforcement or tends to be inflexible on the paladin's code. When we want to fall... speaking is a free action, so spout off some blasphemy (or maybe just a few choice expletives). This triggers the Death Centipede as normal, every thri-kreen gets you use a move action to move into that square, Mantis Leap turns it into a charge. Then the next bug starts cursing, etc. Once everybody has attacked, bug #9 can start popping off atonements.

Hmm. I think we can hit everyone within 30' with the same atonement... but they have to be humanoid. Well, if we're not jumping to trigger the fall, then we don't need to be thri-kreen. Strongheart Halfling, let's say.

Totemist 2/Monk 7/Totemist +1/Paladin 1/Emissary of Barachiel 5

1) Paladin 1. Feat: Servant of the Heavens. Bonus: Swarmfighting.
2) Totemist 1.
3) Totemist 2. Feat: Intuitive Attack.
4) Monk 1. Bonus: Dodge.
5) Monk 2. Bonus: Mobility.
6) Monk 3. Feat: Open Least Chakra: Hands.
7) Monk 4.
8) Monk 5.
9) Monk 6. Feat: Words of Creation. Bonus: Improved Trip.
10) Monk 7.
11) Emissary of Barachiel 1.
12) Emissary of Barachiel 2. Feat: Formation Expert.
13) Emissary of Barachiel 3.
14) Emissary of Barachiel 4.
15) Emissary of Barachiel 5. Feat: Mantis Leap.