POWER LEVELS RISING! (Or, what are the levels of your world?)

[F.H. Zebedee]

Something that my co-DM and I have frequently talked about is the "levels" in our setting. The thing is, in 3.5, the gains from leveling up were almost quadratic- You could count on a level 4 character to easily trounce four level ones, and a level 8 character wouldn't just trounce four level twos, they'd have a shot at wiping a full party of level 4s. So 3.5 frequently had anything that wasn't a major NPC stuck down in the level 1-3 range, because anything higher than that felt like it could be a major mover and shaker.

In 5e, though, with bounded stats, I feel like the tighter power levels mean that DMs can be a bit more liberal with high level NPCs. Gone are the days of "He's a tenth level wizard, why doesn't he just do it himself?" when even a den of kobolds can still be a threat under the right conditions.

So what sort of levels do you guys assign your NPCs in your world? In our setting, level 1 and 2 characters are quite common, but it's not unusual at all to run into NPCs in the 3-5 range, and there's a handful of major plot characters who are in the level 8-12 range. Basically, it's assumed if somebody is a competent adventurer or competent in some other combat/magic relevant field, they're easily in mid-levels (3-6ish), and people who are tough enough to have earned a reputation/acclaim (generals, royalty, famous mages) easily go into level 8-12. (We've largely reserved levels 13+ for more... cosmological scale events) Of course, our setting is in a survivalist adventure world, so that might also have something to do with more badass NPCs feeling "right", but it's intriguing to examine how much it opens your options to have a more evenly powered system.

[gfishfunk]

Humanoid Bosses are found at every level.

Levels 0 - 1: Normal Noncombat People
Levels 1 - 3: Normal Combat Oriented People, Normal Animals, Some Undead
Levels 4 - 6: Elite Combat Oriented People, Divinely Blessed People, Magical People, Dire Animals, Monsters
---- Friendly NPCs will never be above this level.
Levels 7 - 9: Elite Divinely Blessed People, Elite Magical People, Monsters
Levels 10+: Only Monsters. If people are at this level, its because they are named boss-types.

[ruy343]

When I sketch out an NPC with class levels (a rarity), I'll typically consider their position within society and the likelihood they have access to combat training or other skills that would require them to actually have levels in a PC class. most of the time, a level 0 or 1 character is appropriate for a given NPC. The templates given in the PHB and MM are really great for when you need to create an NPC's combat statistics on the fly, and they're great for when I don't need to make them up on the fly too. Here's why:

However, although I usually DM lower-level campaigns, I'm perfectly OK with my NPCs being pushovers in combat: if a group of Spec-Ops folks showed up at my local mayor's office, I wouldn't expect him to put up much of a fight. Similarly, I expect that a ragtag band of murder-hobos adventurers should make quick work of 95% of NPCs, but that they'd have to deal with the consequences of wanton destruction.

My villains are usually no more than 5th level, unless the PCs are involved in an earth-shattering escapade; in which case the villain is of sufficient level to cast the requisite spells to accomplish the task (I just go off of the rough amount of power they'd need, y'know?). The highest level villain I've ever made in 5e is level 13.

[DizzyWood]

In the world I am working on... but have yet to run each village will have several NPCs with the magic initiate feat and at least one person at lvl2. Kings and regional leaders would top out at 10th but most being 6-8 lvl. NPC of all sorts will be running around 2-8th lvl. This is a high low magic world so more spell casters and magic items than the DMG assumes but most of it very simple magic. It is also only 500 years after most of civilization was wiped out except for a few enclaves. Orders of palidina, monks, clerics along with circles of wizards rose to prominence just to keep people alive in the new hellscape that is the wild. So it makes sense that we have higher lvl NPCs. There is a lvl 15 wizard running around on the path to godhood and a 16 year old half orc barbarian who is lvl 18. (don't ask its an ancestor empowerment kind of thing). But those two are the highest lvl humanoids out there.

[Sabeta]

I'm working on a story that deals in low level monsters becoming serious threats. I mainly want see how far a change in equipment and the possible addition of a feat could challenge players. I think Kobolds with Crossbows and either Crossbow Expert or Sharpshooter would be deadly even to mid level PCs.

[Ashrym]

I usually use the NPC stat blocks already provided.

Most standard NPC's are going to be 5th to 9th level. That puts them beyond the apprentice levels and precludes prominence based on tiers for for important or custom NPC's with apprentices usually 1st or 2nd level and accomplished apprentices 3rd or 4th level.

[mephnick]

Most soldiers are CR 2, elites are CR 6 and a few national heroes top out at Cr 9. I don't know what levels those would be if they were built like PCs. Around level 13 or so?

[Yora]

I used to play B/X in the past years and want to try 5th edition for my next campaign. The setting and NPCs remain the same.

NPCs who are not important enough to have an individual name or who have no real combat or magic training are always level 0.
If an NPC with levels has no real fame or notoriety, the maximum level is 3rd.
Characters of 4th or higher level are all important people who can seriously stir things up on at least a local level just by their own power.
10th level PCs and NPCs are the rare grand masters of their chosen art. There are only a few dozens of each class in the whole world.

[DragonSorcererX]

On the homebrew campaign setting that I'm planning, the levels are like this:

Levels - Examples of NPCs
1 to 4 - Soldiers/Minions.
5 to 10 - Officials or Leaders of Small Organizations.
11 to 17 - General/Captain of a Royal Guard or Leaders of Medium Organizations.
18 and Beyond - Demigods/Kings/Archmages/Archpriests/Archpaladins or Leaders of Big Organizations.

But my world is over the top medieval fantasy anime style...

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The NPC stat blocks are highly suggestive of expected power levels already; they include hit dice, proficiency modifiers, toned-down features and everything. If you look at the likes of your common street Thug, or better yet a grizzled war Veteran (capitalization intentional), and you compare them to similar PCs, you'll notice that it actually takes a while for PCs to outclass these more standard NPCs, and that the PCs' edge is often tactical (neat features, feats and the like) as opposed to having more raw power.

[Naanomi]

My campaign setting has a big disparity; several high-level types running around (pre-apocalyptic cataclysm survivors), but few mid-level types... The PCs are the first to 'bridge the gap' and approach the power of the ancients

[mephnick]

The NPC stat blocks are highly suggestive of expected power levels already; they include hit dice, proficiency modifiers, toned-down features and everything. If you look at the likes of your common street Thug, or better yet a grizzled war Veteran (capitalization intentional), and you compare them to similar PCs, you'll notice that it actually takes a while for PCs to outclass these more standard NPCs, and that the PCs' edge is often tactical (neat features, feats and the like) as opposed to having more raw power.

It takes a while to outclass them, but then you shoot way past anyone in the world. A hobgoblin warlord (arguably the strongest hobgoblin warrior on the planet) is CR 6, roughly a deadly duel for a 10th level character. Humanoids basically drop off there, other than the assassin (8) and archmage (12). Once you hit 11-13 your group could probably kill anything in the Monster Manual. Seems like 20 levels is really overkill. Probably why the game works best at levels 3-11.

[DragonSorcererX]

It takes a while to outclass them, but then you shoot way past anyone in the world. A hobgoblin warlord (arguably the strongest hobgoblin warrior on the planet) is CR 6, roughly a deadly duel for a 10th level character. Humanoids basically drop off there, other than the assassin (8) and archmage (12). Once you hit 11-13 your group could probably kill anything in the Monster Manual. Seems like 20 levels is really overkill. Probably why the game works best at levels 3-11.

It depends on the scale of power on your world... your world can have the realistic level of power, or you can go Marvel where there is a Superhero in every corner fighting someone even more powerful.

[fbelanger]

My reference is the Veteran in the MM.

A professional with some abilities and a lot of experiences (at least 10 years) can reach level 9. It is not a rare thing. A powerful army may have battle units composed of veterans.

The problems is that level and CR don't mix well.

[DragonSorcererX]

My reference is the Veteran in the MM.

A professional with some abilities and a lot of experiences (at least 10 years) can reach level 9. It is not a rare thing. A powerful army may have battle units composed of veterans.

The problems is that level and CR don't mix well.

Yes, level and CR don't mix, but, that doesn't mean the level doesn't exist... An Archmage is level 18 and his CR is 12. Not talking about CR now, I think that NPCs are a weak part of 5e, it's better than the random b*llsh*t from 4e, but they are not consistent like they were on 3.5. On 3.5 an NPC was an actual character with class levels and feats, and on 5e they are simply 4e monsters with a little more consistency.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It takes a while to outclass them, but then you shoot way past anyone in the world. A hobgoblin warlord (arguably the strongest hobgoblin warrior on the planet) is CR 6, roughly a deadly duel for a 10th level character. Humanoids basically drop off there, other than the assassin (8) and archmage (12). Once you hit 11-13 your group could probably kill anything in the Monster Manual. Seems like 20 levels is really overkill. Probably why the game works best at levels 3-11.On the one hand the lack of high CR humanoids is an issue, in part because there are fewer clear, input-based guidelines on how to tweak things like in previous editions. On the other hand, PCs being more powerful than most individual humanoids by the time they are at legendary levels is a feature, not a bug. At those levels the challenge should be taking out a number of elite humanoid NPCs, which 5e handles reasonably well. Honestly it takes too long to get to the "somewhat competent" stage, let alone the levels where you thoroughly outclass NPCs, and it's not like there aren't monsters that would challenge higher level parties when played intelligently. Although, there are depressingly few, at least until that monster book comes out perhaps.

[CaptainSarathai]

I've got some high rollers running about, CR8-10ish humans are filling out upper echelons of Paladin Orders in most of my games. That's a good 1v1 with a character in the "Hero of the Realm" tier, which I find sensible, given that my Paladins would be like an order of "Round Table Knights" from Arthurian legend. Enough people would know them, throughout the land.

Go much higher though, and you're hitting straight villain and godlike territory. If I have something up that high, it's the BBEG or a damn close henchman, or a Wizard on the precipice of Lichedom, etc.

[Sir cryosin]

On the homebrew campaign setting that I'm planning, the levels are like this:

Levels - Examples of NPCs
1 to 4 - Soldiers/Minions.
5 to 10 - Officials or Leaders of Small Organizations.
11 to 17 - General/Captain of a Royal Guard or Leaders of Medium Organizations.
18 and Beyond - Demigods/Kings/Archmages/Archpriests/Archpaladins or Leaders of Big Organizations.

But my world is over the top medieval fantasy anime style...

I use this in my campaign as well because. not everyone is just a peasant guards and soldiers train hell they train more then some adventurous would. IT'S there job they an go out and do what the party can. But they don't becase they have a family, think it's to dangerous, not appealing, ect. A wizard that study all his life should not be lv 2. If so he's got to be the stupidest wizard ever. In the DMG there are down time training if a pc spends I'm training to gain lvs why does the npc who do the same things swinging swords,leaning a spell ect. I see my world as a real living world. Adventurers are wired , borderline if not crazy they seek out thrill, treasure, fame, and power. The fun part is taking these pc and making them stand out ture them into hero's. If you read a lot of books most of the main hero of the story. Stared out a Average Joe . We're just about everyone was faster, stronger, ect. But the hero rosed up with his feats of accomplishments. Players like to feel stronger and powerful but they want to feel special. They love the feel of accomplishment betting the odds. That what's make a great story. And that's why my npcs have different lvs and abilitys. Also it would be wired if a 15lv pc with 5 igniter lv and 10 wizard lvs. That's been adventuring for 2 years was a better wizard the the teachers and head wizard of the arcana University. OH and another good side effect is I don't have murder hobo pcs because they found out that npcs come in lower and higher lvs. I had a pc death last game because he tryed to steal from a high lv wizard. The rest of the party let him die because I Warren them and let them roll dice.

[Ghost Nappa]

It's my understanding that anyone above Level 10 is at least somewhat famous and is a mover and shaker in the global community. If nothing else, people will pretend to recognize their name so they don't appear uninformed.

"Who? Michael Jordan? Oh! The famous pathologist! Of course, of course! I heard all about you at the market!"

[Sir cryosin]

It's my understanding that anyone above Level 10 is at least somewhat famous and is a mover and shaker in the global community. If nothing else, people will pretend to recognize their name so they don't appear uninformed.

"Who? Michael Jordan? Oh! The famous pathologist! Of course, of course! I heard all about you at the market!"

Your world must not have monsters. Your pc can't be the only Adventures.if npc are low lvs. then the death rate must be astronomical. Wit only one adventuring and nobody above lv 10, and the pcs can't be everywhere.

[Occasional Sage]

I don't tend to stat out NPCs, unless they are villains. I find it a waste of time and to impede storytelling. When I find that I need stats for some reason, I wing it and make notes to maintain continuity in the future.

That said, powerful NPCs (stat-wise) aren't found only in positions of authority in my games. Some folks just don't want to be in charge regardless of their abilities, and many positions of power don't require being powerful yourself.

[Naanomi]

Your world must not have monsters. Your pc can't be the only Adventures.if npc are low lvs. then the death rate must be astronomical. Wit only one adventuring and nobody above lv 10, and the pcs can't be everywhere.
One good part of a setting with 'bound accuracy' is you can make as world with dangerous monsters that no one can really fight (except the PCs maybe) but still understand why they stay away from the centers of civilization (armies kill them if they don't), so they stick to the hinterlands, make life deadly on the frontier, but only rarely cause problems in more civilized areas (and not usually for long enough for people to mass forces against them)

[Ghost Nappa]

One good part of a setting with 'bound accuracy' is you can make as world with dangerous monsters that no one can really fight (except the PCs maybe) but still understand why they stay away from the centers of civilization (armies kill them if they don't), so they stick to the hinterlands, make life deadly on the frontier, but only rarely cause problems in more civilized areas (and not usually for long enough for people to mass forces against them)

Pretty much this. Dragons - even ancient dragons - can't just attack major metropolises. There are enough people with enough bows to shoot at them that doing so is a dangerous gambit. Sure, maybe half of the city will get wiped out, but so will the Dragon.

Furthermore, remember that even NPCs with even 1 class level are special, unique, and interesting. If someone has 10 of them, wow, they must be doing something right.


See DMG p. 37 for more details (or the Desolation of Smaug).