Is there any way in which a Sorcerer is better than a Wizard? [Archive]

sleepyphoenixx

2016-11-04, 03:53 PM

There aren't many. Spontaneously applying metamagic is probably the big one, followed by some builds that just synergize better with cha than int.
The rest is less an inherent mechanical advantage and more a question of feat support - some sorcerer-exclusive feats are quite good, depending on your build.
You can't get your spellbook stolen. How useful that is depends on your DM.

The spontaneous metamagic means that sorcerers are generally superior blasters. This gets amplified by the Practical Metamagic feat (which wizards don't qualify for) for an extra level of MM reduction.
Oh, and sorcerers only need 15 minutes to refresh their spells after resting. Maybe it could help if you're in a hurry or play a theurge?

Sorcerers also get a number of wonderful spells that wizards don't get, such as Arcane Fusion and Wings of Cover.
And wizards get a number of wonderful spells that sorcerers don't get, such as Mordenkainen's Lucubration and Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer.
I wouldn't say one is better than the other, though Wings of Cover is admittedly very nice (but easily available as a relatively cheap wand, and UMD is good on wizards for familiar shenanigans).

Sorcerers have more tactical flexibility in combat because they have a greater ability to cast the same spell multiple times when the need arises. Wizards have to plan out in advance how many of each spell they are going to cast in a day, which can be difficult to do for spells like fireball and scorching ray.
Pearls of Power, Rary's Arcane Conversion, Uncanny Forethought, Mnemonic Enhancer, Mordenkainen's Lucubration or simply leaving slots open make that blatantly untrue.
And i'd hesitate to refer to "can cast the same 3-4 spells more than once and choose on the fly which" as "more tactical flexibilty" when compared to a wizards vastly higher number of spells known in combination with things like Uncanny Forethought.
I guess if you absolutely need to spam 6 Scorching Ray's in one encounter a sorcerer comes out ahead, but i don't think the advantage is as big as you make it sound here.

I was listening to an old episode of the 3.5 Private Sanctuary Podcast the other day and they mentioned that they would never pick Wizard over Sorcerer, because a Wizard has so many options that it can be overwhelming, while with a Sorcerer, you only ever have to pick your favorite spells.

That is a major advantage Sorcerer has over Wizard: a Sorcerer is so much easier to play. Instead of trying to anticipate and prepare for problems ahead of time, which can leave you useless if you pick wrong or overpowering if you pick right, with a Sorcerer you pick just a few spells that will be generically useful no matter what situation you end up in.
That argument makes no sense. You still need to pick the right spells with a sorcerer in the first place. You could prepare the exact same spells on a wizard (barring the few class-specific exceptions).
The only difference is that the wizard has the option of leaving a few slots open for situational spells that aren't too time critical, which a sorcerer will simply never be able to cast. That's hardly an advantage for the sorcerer.

CaPtMalHammer

2016-11-04, 03:58 PM

Because the Sorcerers name is " TIM"...

ok but yeah Metamagic with a sorcerer is far more effective. A wizard is more adept at more situations as long as he prepares ahead of time. A sorcerer can just kind of wing it and cast what he needs when he needs it.

Cosi

2016-11-04, 04:01 PM

Sorcerer Metamagic is mostly terrible, but it has funky synergy with arcane spellsurge. Normally, you have to find full round casting time spells to exploit it, but with Sorcerer Metamagic you can just slap a +0 metamagic (Invisible Spell is good) on half your spells and cast twice every round.

sleepyphoenixx

2016-11-04, 04:10 PM

ok but yeah Metamagic with a sorcerer is far more effective.
It depends on what metamagic and when you use it. Extend, Persist or Chain is stuff that you'll generally know ahead of time what spell you want it on. Empower, Twin and Maximize and stuff like that are more situational and really benefit from the ability to apply them on the fly.
Though the extra reduction from Practical Metamagic is incredibly valuable and pushes sorcerers ahead, barring things like Spelldancer or Incantatrix.

A sorcerer can just kind of wing it and cast what he needs when he needs it.
Only if he actually knows the spell he needs. Which a lot of the time he doesn't, if what he needs isn't "kill it with fire".
This is especially problematic at spell levels 6th-9th, where he only gets 3 spells known per level at most.
But you also have to consider that you'll spend half your career a spell level behind the wizard, and that you'll only ever have 1-2 spells known of your highest spell level.

This is obviously extremely limiting. You can get around it somewhat with Runestaves and Knowstones, but you can only ever have one of the first (and the MIC has a hard limit on the amount of spells one can have) and the second are rather pricey.
PrCs like Sandshaper also help, but it only turns the issue from near-crippling to barely tolerable.

barakaka

2016-11-04, 05:12 PM

A one level dip in the Sandshaper PrC gives Desert Insight which expands the Sorcerer spells known greatly. I know this put me at a lot more ease in the higher OP campaign I was in. There are a few gems in that list, and it's pretty nice if you wanted to make a blaster sorc but don't ever want to be useless.

Drake Helm also helps to expand your spell list, although it's expensive.

I can attest to outperforming a wizard based on day to day spell selection. Just do the time at character creation, and you'll shine.

Doctor Awkward

2016-11-04, 05:12 PM

I don't disagree with your conclusion, but I do have some comments about your process... :smallwink:

And wizards get a number of wonderful spells that sorcerers don't get, such as Mordenkainen's Lucubration and Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer.
I wouldn't say one is better than the other,

Lucubration and Mnemonic Enhancer are both spells themselves, which require slots be used to cast them.

Getting more spell levels in a day and recalling previously cast spells has obvious uses, but you are effectively trading a 4th or 5th level spell slot for a lower level one.

Unless you are using them as items in some fashion, in which case you are spending wealth to do what a sorcerer is doing for free.

Pearls of Power, Rary's Arcane Conversion, Uncanny Forethought, Mnemonic Enhancer, Mordenkainen's Lucubration or simply leaving slots open make that blatantly untrue.
And i'd hesitate to refer to "can cast the same 3-4 spells more than once and choose on the fly which" as "more tactical flexibilty" when compared to a wizards vastly higher number of spells known in combination with things like Uncanny Forethought.
I guess if you absolutely need to spam 6 Scorching Ray's in one encounter a sorcerer comes out ahead, but i don't think the advantage is as big as you make it sound here.

Pearls of Power again cost money.
Arcane Conversion has a full round casting time.
Mnecomic Enhancer has a 10 minute cast time
Filling a left open spell slot requires, minimum, 15 minutes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSelectionandPreparatio n) free of any and all possible distractions.

I don't think the machine gun effect a sorcerer can generate compares to those options in favor of the wizard.

I absolutely agree with you everywhere else. Wizards are definitely better than sorcerers in almost every other way. Wizards are far more flexible, much better at handling random situations, and Uncanny Forethought is almost broken in it's ridiculousness.

ryu

2016-11-04, 05:25 PM

Spontaneous divination, versatile spellcaster, elven generalist, and if they're ruled to stack domain wizard. Congratulations. You're now quantifiably superior to sorcerer in every way. If we want the unique spells we can either PRC into them any number of ways, UMD, or feats.

Blackhawk748

2016-11-04, 05:43 PM

Erit

2016-11-04, 05:45 PM

In short a properly made Sorcerer may not have the perfect solution for the problem, but they will have a solution.

"When all you have is a hammer..."

stanprollyright

2016-11-04, 06:01 PM

Malroth

2016-11-04, 06:43 PM

Sorcerer is at its best when on the clock. If you've got 3 days to get something done, a Sorcerer will generally come out ahead as they dont need to plan out what they need. In short a properly made Sorcerer may not have the perfect solution for the problem, but they will have a solution.

More like 3 minutes. With 3 days a wizard has time to perfectly map out the destination and all the creatures guarding it, transport himself to a planar metropolis to buy and scribe the perfect spells to solve the problem, throw extended hours per level buffs on himself, then rest and prepare the perfect spell load out while still buffed from yesterday's slots.

sleepyphoenixx

2016-11-04, 07:48 PM

Sorcerers make better blasters than Wizards right out of the tin.
How so? A generic sorcerers blasting is identical to a wizards, except he gets new spells a level later. And can't do anything else with his highest spell level for a level more.

Sorcerers make better party faces than Wizards.
That's not really saying much. You may have high charisma, but you don't have any skill points to spend on social skills so you're not actually good at the face role.

Sorcerers are easier to learn and play than Wizards.
Not really. Spell selection is spell selection. The wizard at least can take a few sketchy selections just to try them out and just not prepare them anymore when he finds out they suck.
If you don't want to bother you can just use the same selection process you'd use for a sorcerer and only prepare those spells. There's just no reason to.
The sorcerer is stuck with his selections for at least a few levels, and he doesn't really get much of an arsenal to begin with unless you go splat diving to add spells known, which are often fixed.

Sorcerers are absolutely better than Wizards at levels 1 and 2 due to more spells per day and better weapon proficiency.
No arcane spellcaster gives a damn about weapon profiency. Wizards can use crossbows, which is all a low-level arcane caster is going to use when he's not casting.
As for spells, a Focused Specialist has the same number of spells as a sorcerer at first + second level while still having a broader spell selection.
And then he gets a new spell level while the sorcerer is still stuck at first level spells. And that's not even counting Elven Generalist/Domain Wizard shenanigans.
Or the fact that Abrupt Jaunt may be the most potent survival tool for casters that exists in D&D.

Sorcerers multiclass/gestalt easier.
Um, no? When you multiclass and lose caster progression the fact that you get your spells a level later is a serious drawback. If you don't lose caster progression the wizard still gets spells a level earlier.
He also has more skill points to fulfill requirements with, at least 2 bonus feats for most PrCs (any that require level 5) and can actually afford to learn a spell simply for a prc requirement even if it's crap.

Sorcerers are arguably better at straight dungeon-crawling, with more spells/day and the ability to cast the same spell over again if it's tactically useful.
As mentioned the spells/day thing is less true than you assume, especially at uneven levels.
And i really don't see how casting the same spell over again is tactically useful, especially when you only have 1-3 spells know per level to pick from. If a wizard only knew 1 spell of his highest level he could cast it over again too, but i'd say that having a reasonably broad selection is a lot more tactically useful in most situations.
Not to mention that when it's not tactically useful a pure sorcerer actually has nothing most of the time, because he doesn't know any other spells of his highest level and few lower level ones.
I'd say that situation crops up more often than the wizard wishing he had just one more Fireball.

Sorcerers don't have spellbooks to protect.
Fair enough, but if that's a serious enough problem that it's the deciding factor between playing a sorc vs playing a wizard then your DM has issues. And you should find a new one asap.
Not to mention that you still have your currently prepared loadout to get it back, for whatever it's worth. There's also Spell Mastery which a lot of wizards get as a prereq to Uncanny Forethought.
I'll mention Eidetic Spellcaster for forms sake, but if your DM is that eager to get your spellbook he'll probably ban it anyway.

Sorcerers deal better with insufficient down time/prep time/resources.
Well, kinda on the time? A sorcerer does get ready for a new day a whole 45 minutes faster than a wizard. Which might come in useful once in a blue moon or a very rushed campaign, but not commonly.
But resources i'd have to dispute. A sorcerer actually needs resources to make up for his lack of spells known a whole lot more than a wizard. Runestaves and similar items are pretty much a must, where a wizard can get by just fine with the spells he gets at levelup. Even without Collegiate Wizard, Elven Generalist, Greyhawk Method or whatever else adds more free spells/level.
A wizard can also afford to spend feats and spells known on item crafting, if necessary.

Sorcerers don't have forbidden schools of magic.
As mentioned above, even a focused specialist has more spells known than a sorcerer, with the same number of spells/day (well, the sorcerer has more cantrips/day).
Given that some schools are rather situational (Enchantment, i'm looking at you) few sorcerers are going to spend one of their few spells known on something like that anyway.
It can get annoying when you go for something like a Focused Specialist Incantatrix, but imo you're still not actually worse off with regards to spell selection compared to a sorcerer.

Wizards can get around a lot of these advantages, but no single build can get around all of them without sacrificing lots of character resources.
The only real advantage i see for a sorcerer is access to one more level of metamagic reduction, a few unique spells that are admittedly awesome and the ability to apply metamagic on the fly.
No, i'm not counting the 15 minute shorter prep time as a real advantage that should influence class selection.:smalltongue:

Malroth

2016-11-04, 07:56 PM

Sorcerers make better blasters than Wizards right out of the tin.

Sorcerers make better party faces than Wizards.

Sorcerers are easier to learn and play than Wizards.

Sorcerers are absolutely better than Wizards at levels 1 and 2 due to more spells per day and better weapon proficiency.

Sorcerers multiclass/gestalt easier.

Sorcerers are arguably better at straight dungeon-crawling, with more spells/day and the ability to cast the same spell over again if it's tactically useful.

Sorcerers don't have spellbooks to protect.

Sorcerers deal better with insufficient down time/prep time/resources.

Sorcerers don't have forbidden schools of magic.

Wizards can get around a lot of these advantages, but no single build can get around all of them without sacrificing lots of character resources.

1) Arguably false the ability to use metamagic and still have your move action and being 1 spell level higher vastly outweighs the extra 2 spells per day a sorcorer is likely to have

2) Absolutely correct IF the sorcerer has INT as his secondary stat for the skillpoints

3) Also correct I'd put sorcerers as the #1 easy to play class

4) Abrupt jaunt, Precocious Apprentice and Fell drain sonic snap are all more powerful than anything a lv 1 or 2 sorcorer can pull

5) Absolutely False. Warblades/archivists/Factotum/Binders/Truenamers/Rogues/Monks/Psions all multiclass or Gestault much better with wizards than Sorcerers.

6) Not really relavent, Both can take reserve feats for all day durability and both can easily have the capibility to rest in safety if they need to.

7)Very DM dependant, in 30 years of gaming i've only met 1 wizard who's had their spellbook targeted, having a spare isn't dificult post lv 5

8) Everything is immune to enchantment and necromancy anyway.

Blackhawk748

2016-11-04, 08:18 PM

As mentioned the spells/day thing is less true than you assume, especially at uneven levels.
And i really don't see how casting the same spell over again is tactically useful, especially when you only have 1-3 spells know per level to pick from. If a wizard only knew 1 spell of his highest level he could cast it over again too, but i'd say that having a reasonably broad selection is a lot more tactically useful in most situations.
Not to mention that when it's not tactically useful a pure sorcerer actually has nothing most of the time, because he doesn't know any other spells of his highest level and few lower level ones.
I'd say that situation crops up more often than the wizard wishing he had just one more Fireball.

Im responding to the bolded part. So you can't see how having the ability to spam whatever spell you have access to is tactically useful? The few times i've played a Wizard (or any prepped caster, and it isnt a common occurence) i am constantly wishing i had "just one more of that one spell"

Also when a Sorc picks a spell, they pick a spell that is broadly useful, say Glitterdust, and they spam it like crazy.

Also having more options (which ironically the Wizard only actually comes out meaningfully ahead with bonus spells, and not at all if the Sorc took a level in Sandshaper) in the manner the Wizard has is Strategically useful, as they can switch them out day to day. The Sorcerer is more tactically useful as they have their full kit always available.

ryu

2016-11-04, 08:31 PM

Im responding to the bolded part. So you can't see how having the ability to spam whatever spell you have access to is tactically useful? The few times i've played a Wizard (or any prepped caster, and it isnt a common occurence) i am constantly wishing i had "just one more of that one spell"

Also when a Sorc picks a spell, they pick a spell that is broadly useful, say Glitterdust, and they spam it like crazy.

Also having more options (which ironically the Wizard only actually comes out meaningfully ahead with bonus spells, and not at all if the Sorc took a level in Sandshaper) in the manner the Wizard has is Strategically useful, as they can switch them out day to day. The Sorcerer is more tactically useful as they have their full kit always available.

I can't speak for him, but I certainly haven't. Spontaneous divination gives plenty of reason to save spells for a knowing things fest at the end of the day, and utility wands of really situational stuff are cheap.

Telonius

2016-11-04, 08:34 PM

The "Greater Draconic Rite of Passage" trick with Kobolds is one of the classic ways of getting 20th-level casting in both arcane and divine (adding Mystic Theurge and a few other goodies). It works with Sorcerer, but not with Wizard (since the free levels are in sorcerer casting, not wizard casting).

Blackhawk748

2016-11-04, 08:34 PM

I can't speak for him, but I certainly haven't. Spontaneous divination gives plenty of reason to save spells for a knowing things fest at the end of the day, and utility wands of really situational stuff are cheap.

Not saying they arent but a Sorc can buy those wands too, and the Div spells they lost are a Runestaff away. Also Sorcerers are just better for rapid response and kicking in the door as they dont need to know what they hell they are getting into, and dont give me that crap about "But what if they are immune to your element?" If you're a blasting mage and you don't have a way around that problem, you're a bad blaster mage.

Soranar

2016-11-04, 08:38 PM

I'm afraid the sorcerers get more spellslots arguments is just not true

To point this out effectively, I assign each spell slot the value of the spell they hold
so a level 0 spellslot= 0 point
a level 1 spellslot = 1 point
a level 9 = 9 points

for example

a level 5 sorcerer has

6 level 0
6 level 1 = 6
4 level 2 = 8

so 14 total

a level 5 wizard has 4 level 0
3 level 1 = 3
2 level 2 = 4
1 level 3 = 3

so 10 total

so in theory the sorcerer seems to have more spellslots
but then add the bonus spell from specializing (and there's very little reason not to + normal specialization is core)

4 level 1 = 4
3 level 2 = 6
2 level 3 = 6

so 16 total

Sure, you have less lower level spells but you get more higher level spells and you get them a full level sooner

The only option around that is to play a kobold with the ritual that boosts your caster level but

a Wizard can also be a focused specialist (which is not hard to optimize at all) and get yet another spell slot per level + doing so does not require a feat or to be a kobold

at level 20,the sorcerer finally gets more spellslots than the wizard if that wizard is not a focused specialist but, until level 17 (which is most of the game) the wizard comes up on top due to having higher level spells faster (again unless you're playing a kobold)

certain strategies are simply not worth it for a sorcerer

the summon monster spells for example (except summon monster 9) cost too many spell known to be used effectively while a wizard can just learn more spells

now there are some advantages to playing a sorcerer

-there are many CHA + races , many of which are good choices
-there are very very few + INT races, few of which are good choices
-there are many templates that increase charisma too

finally some sorcerer only options are genuinely powerful and more or less foolproof

-wings of cover
-wings of flurry
-protection from evil (from an ACF)
-arcane fusion
-greater arcane fusion
-arcane spellsurge

ryu

2016-11-04, 08:59 PM

Not saying they arent but a Sorc can buy those wands too, and the Div spells they lost are a Runestaff away. Also Sorcerers are just better for rapid response and kicking in the door as they dont need to know what they hell they are getting into, and dont give me that crap about "But what if they are immune to your element?" If you're a blasting mage and you don't have a way around that problem, you're a bad blaster mage.

Except that isn't true either. Do you have enough spells known to spare for contingency? How about celerity? How about more precious spells known like shapechange, time stop, gate, or literally most of the other good ninths?

Do you have a ready list of things that will automatically occur should you fail to quickly kill your target? Do they prevent you from dying? Bring you back to life? Never been at risk to begin with thanks to legions of simalcrums, ice assassins, or whatever else you please?

Afgncaap5

2016-11-04, 09:02 PM

The answer depends on whether or not this question is designed for actual play or for long-planned optimization number juggling fun. If the latter, the quantum wizard (that is, the wizard that can have any feat or spell we want it to at any moment because of course they prepared their carousel reversal spray spell) will generally have a way to be better, thanks to the frictionless world's lack of diminishing returns.

In actual play, it probably changes per table. At my own games, I see better results from Sorcerers, especially where metamagic is involved. They tend to have better split-second capabilities for unpredictable set-piece situations.

More to the point, there's the fact that Sorcerers can push themselves to learn and train "any" spell (your value for "any" may very.) This tends to be very situational and flavor based, but for GMs who want to help new players learn things it makes things easier (I'd never let a wizard just "have" a Cure spell, for instance, but a player who wants to be a sorcerer who lives in the forest and acts as a kind of apothecary for a local community, sure, why not? We're getting into questionable RAW territory here, though.) Meanwhile, if I've been running a fast-paced game where there's not been a lot of time to shop or research spells, a wizard can suffer from the limit of spells in their book.

Note that this sorta flies both ways: a sorcerer can also suffer from their lack of spells known. The sorcerer's edge comes from more uses per day of the spells, but also comes from a place of habit: their class tends to reward playing to tactics more than strategy. A wizard who plays to tactics as well can mitigate this loss a bit.

So... yeah. I think the answer to your question isn't "Yes" so much as it's "Sure", if that makes any sense.

Echch

2016-11-04, 09:14 PM

For all the problems sorcerers have and all the preparing a wizard can do, there is one thing I'd like to point out:
A Wizard is better at solving problems that can't be solved with murder, but there are very little situations that can't be solved with murder...

unseenmage

2016-11-04, 09:28 PM

Wizards are Daleks and Sorcerers are Cybermen.

And anyone who gets this reference is cool, like bowties. Bowties are cool.

Erit

2016-11-04, 09:42 PM

Wizards are Daleks and Sorcerers are Cybermen.

And anyone who gets this reference is cool, like bowties. Bowties are cool.

But are they as cool as fezzes?

Luccan

2016-11-04, 09:48 PM

Wizards are Daleks and Sorcerers are Cybermen.

And anyone who gets this reference is cool, like bowties. Bowties are cool.

Oh dang, I meant to make a joke about that in the original post

unseenmage

2016-11-04, 10:00 PM

But are they as cool as fezzes?

Of course not.

Oh dang, I meant to make a joke about that in the original post
Its not too late. I am far too lazy to gi find that screenshot and make the meme myself.

Pex

2016-11-04, 10:12 PM

As a personal preference spontaneous casting is The Thing for me. Whatever spellcasting class, I'm going to prepare the spells I want all the time anyway. More spells per day is the perk. The selling point is that I can cast a spell more than once per day if I want to. I could prepare a spell more than once, yet I can't help but feel that's inefficient. I don't always want to cast a spell more than once per day or even at all so taking up the slot is wasteful. As a spontaneous caster I cast what I want when I want and no slot is wasted. Playing a prepared caster I have changed spells once in a while. As a spontaneous caster I have been disappointed I don't have a particular spell for a particular moment. Such occurrences are rare enough for me that I can just lump it and not be concerned anymore. I can't do everything, and I shouldn't have to.

stanprollyright

2016-11-04, 10:30 PM

Lemme quote myself for a sec:

Wizards can get around a lot of these advantages, but no single build can get around all of them without sacrificing lots of character resources.

How about let's not compare an optimized wizard to an unoptimized sorcerer. So your Focused Specialist Elven Generalist Collegiate Domain Wizard with all the best feats has to compete with Greater Draconic Rite Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds who also have all the best feats.

The answer depends on whether or not this question is designed for actual play or for long-planned optimization number juggling fun. If the latter, the quantum wizard (that is, the wizard that can have any feat or spell we want it to at any moment because of course they prepared their carousel reversal spray spell) will generally have a way to be better, thanks to the frictionless world's lack of diminishing returns.

Yep.

ryu

2016-11-04, 11:52 PM

Lemme quote myself for a sec:

How about let's not compare an optimized wizard to an unoptimized sorcerer. So your Focused Specialist Elven Generalist Collegiate Domain Wizard with all the best feats has to compete with Greater Draconic Rite Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds who also have all the best feats.

Yep.

Unless you're talking epic feats on a suitably old kobold you lose. If you're talking epic feats dragonwrought kobold is immediately optimal for every class and thus your best feats are moot. Also the wizard got more bonus feats last I checked. This is the environment the sorcerer will do worst in due to less high level slots, and less spells known.

Blackhawk748

2016-11-04, 11:58 PM

Unless you're talking epic feats on a suitably old kobold you lose. If you're talking epic feats dragonwrought kobold is immediately optimal for every class and thus your best feats are moot. Also the wizard got more bonus feats last I checked. This is the environment the sorcerer will do worst in due to less high level slots, and less spells known.

Are we seriously comparing Wizard 20 to Sorcerer 20? Because that is probably the dumbest comparison ever because Sorcerers don't get class features past level 1 and are part of what caused the "PrC as fast as humanly possible" trend.

Gruftzwerg

2016-11-05, 12:48 AM

If you apply maximum cheese (may be restricted by your DM^^):

White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Loredrake (Spellhording) Kobold

White Dragonspawn gives:
- Sorcerer casting +1lvl
- natural Armor 7
- fly with double your movementspeed
- +2 Dex & Con; Natural Attacks (Claw, Bite)
- Breath Weapon
- Cold subtype
all for +1LA, which you could buy off @lvl3, if you use that optional rule. Even if you don't buy it off, it's a good tradeoff.

Dragonwrought:
- +3 for mental stats from aging without penalities
- enables Loredrake (debatable, but I sit on the true dragon Kobold side^^)
- Greater Ritual of Passage (feat) gives another +1lvl of Sorcerer casting

Loredrake:
Gives you +2 lvl of Sorcerer casting for reducing your racial HD from d12 to d10, which doesn't affect you.

Spellhording:
Hey why not cast like a Wizard? And use your scales instead of a spellbook. Burn up to 15 Spells/day from your Scales as if using a scroll. Get the Spellsnatch ability to learn spells that you counter.

If you can pull all the cheese out, you will be sitting on +4 lvls of Sorcerer casting, which brings your spell progression 3 lvl in front of the wizard. You are feat starving (no free metamagic feats and you invested 2 feats into this build), but have the best spell progression.

Even if the cheese is disallowed. A regular Dragonwrought Kobold with greater Ritual of Passage and White Dragonspawn (without buyoff) has his advantages.

Troacctid

2016-11-05, 12:50 AM

Sovereign archetypes don't work on kobolds, only on true dragons, so that doesn't work.

Gruftzwerg

2016-11-05, 01:01 AM

Sovereign archetypes don't work on kobolds, only on true dragons, so that doesn't work.

If you didn't read it full, i'll help you and point it out:

- enables Loredrake (debatable, but I sit on the true dragon Kobold side^^)

and before we get a flashback: I kindly remind you to our last discussion about it.
If you really want to debate it out, make a thread and I am willing to follow you to a nice and friendly discussion. But I am not willing to debate something here, which doesn't belong into this thread.
We had that the last time (where I asked you the same thing: to open a sperate thread if you want to discuss it) and at some point you stopped the conversation. (dunno why?)
(I hope I don't sound offending, not my intention. as said, just a kindly reminder ;)

we all play with different DMs and different interpretations of the rules. So stop pretending that your rule interpretation is the sole right one. thx.

Troacctid

2016-11-05, 01:03 AM

There's really no debate. Dragonwrought kobolds as true dragons has no basis in the rules.

ryu

2016-11-05, 01:05 AM

Are we seriously comparing Wizard 20 to Sorcerer 20? Because that is probably the dumbest comparison ever because Sorcerers don't get class features past level 1 and are part of what caused the "PrC as fast as humanly possible" trend.

And the only reason to stay in wizard is familiar progression and bonus feats. Not to mention the bonus feats have comparably good counterparts in many good prestiges. Do keep in mind this thread is supposedly about the base classes. We can get into a PRC brawl next thread.

Really though we've also got the issue of craft contingent spell being a lot easier to use with wizards. You've a wider list of spells to set, and the combo pieces of spells known to set up a craft XP farm are a lot less costly when you have essentially limitless spells known.

Seto

2016-11-05, 01:06 AM

I like the Sorcerer's fluff better (mostly as it pertains to spontaneous casting - that it's CHA-based is a bonus). I'm not a fan of Vancian magic. The Sorcerer still has limited spell slots and few spells known, so that doesn't entirely solve it, but using your force of personality to directly influence reality sounds more like magic to me, than needing study, preparation every morning and a spellbook to do it.

Gruftzwerg

2016-11-05, 01:12 AM

There's really no debate. Dragonwrought kobolds as true dragons has no basis in the rules.

and there are 0 arguments to prove this in your comment. So what is your comment about? A provocation to pull me into debate without any statements?
Can we pls be nice to each other and get along?

Troacctid

2016-11-05, 01:21 AM

and there are 0 arguments to prove this in your comment. So what is your comment about? A provocation to pull me into debate without any statements?
Can we pls be nice to each other and get along?
They simply do not meet the definition of a true dragon as laid out in Draconomicon (or anywhere else). Rather, they fit under the heading of lesser dragons, which cannot take sovereign archetypes.

I don't see any particular room for debate. If you could cite any rule that supports kobolds being true dragons, that would be one thing, but you can't, because no such rule exists.

Zanos

2016-11-05, 01:50 AM

That is a major advantage Sorcerer has over Wizard: a Sorcerer is so much easier to play. Instead of trying to anticipate and prepare for problems ahead of time, which can leave you useless if you pick wrong or overpowering if you pick right, with a Sorcerer you pick just a few spells that will be generically useful no matter what situation you end up in.
I'd actually argue that sorcerers occupy a strange niche. Someone with very little knowledge of 3.5, like a first time player, probably doesn't understand that all spells are not equally good, even at the same level. If they screw up their spell selection on a sorcerer, they're hosed. A wizard can change all of his spells rather easily.

That said, spontaneous casting is actually pretty good out of the box. I have actually had problems on some of my wizards where I didn't prepare enough castings of dispel magic, or similar. That's the case with a couple of spells actually. I could need dispel magic zero or ten times on a given adventuring day. That's not something a sorcerer really has to worry about.

That said, if you are optimizing, wizards can cast a bunch of spells without preparing them fairly easily(spontaneous divination + versatile spellcaster), but high OP sorcerers can also massively expand their spells known for fairly cheap. It becomes rather moot.

Fizban

2016-11-05, 02:44 AM

I'd actually argue that sorcerers occupy a strange niche. Someone with very little knowledge of 3.5, like a first time player, probably doesn't understand that all spells are not equally good, even at the same level. If they screw up their spell selection on a sorcerer, they're hosed. A wizard can change all of his spells rather easily.
This is the standard argument, but let's examine it from a practical standpoint. Assuming a DM who isn't terrible, the sorcerer will be allowed to switch the spell out anyway , or won't have taken it in the first place because the DM explained how and why it was a bad idea. Meanwhile there are plenty of DMs that don't let wizards just buy spells, requiring you to actually deal with an NPC or disallowing it altogether for one reason or another, and that's before you get into an adventure or campaign that has the party isolated enough they can't just shop their way out of things.

If you look at the number of spells known, actual guaranteed spells in the class description, they're about the same (not counting cantrips). The sorcerer is forced to front load their spells while the wizard gets more on the higher levels in addition to their earlier casting, but a wizard with just their wizard spells known does not have a massive advantage. In a way, saying wizards are amazing because they know so many spells is the same thing as saying fighters are amazing because they can wield powerful magic weapons- wizards only get tons of spells if the DM allows certain things with WBL, the same way a fighter's weapon is only amazing if the DM does certain other things with WBL. An old-school game where WBL is ignored and +lol swords are plentiful but no one will sell you spells, sorcerer looks a lot more attractive.

Gruftzwerg

2016-11-05, 02:59 AM

They simply do not meet the definition of a true dragon as laid out in Draconomicon (or anywhere else). Rather, they fit under the heading of lesser dragons, which cannot take sovereign archetypes.

I don't see any particular room for debate. If you could cite any rule that supports kobolds being true dragons, that would be one thing, but you can't, because no such rule exists.

you won't learn do you?
the last time you brought this up I already did give you an answers to this in the last thread, where you didn't response to it and tried to pull of other arguments.

Look up the "other True Dragons" part after "Advance by Age". It says that the DM should consider to make for other True Dragons not mentioned in the Monster Manual (means, everything that is released later or from other sources) possible with the help of the Table 3-22 (p144).

This paragraph (see below) implies that it isn't a requirement to "Advance by Age" to qualify as True Dragon. It suggests the DM to give all other True Dragons "Advance by Age" with the help of Table 3-22. Sorry but it's clear that your assumption is false here. It's more a DM decision, if he'll give D.Kobolds "Advance by Age" or not!

Other True Dragons
For true dragons other than those found in the MonsterManual, construct tables such as those above using the information on Table 3–22: Additional Level Adjustments.

edit: since I can guess what will come next:
you won't find any Dragonwrought Kobold Statblock where "Advance: by class" stands, cause we only have Statblocks for regular Kobolds, not Dragonwrought Kobolds.

Zanos

2016-11-05, 02:59 AM

This is the standard argument, but let's examine it from a practical standpoint. Assuming a DM who isn't terrible, the sorcerer will be allowed to switch the spell out anyway , or won't have taken it in the first place because the DM explained how and why it was a bad idea. Meanwhile there are plenty of DMs that don't let wizards just buy spells, requiring you to actually deal with an NPC or disallowing it altogether for one reason or another, and that's before you get into an adventure or campaign that has the party isolated enough they can't just shop their way out of things.

If you look at the number of spells known, actual guaranteed spells in the class description, they're about the same (not counting cantrips). The sorcerer is forced to front load their spells while the wizard gets more on the higher levels in addition to their earlier casting, but a wizard with just their wizard spells known does not have a massive advantage. In a way, saying wizards are amazing because they know so many spells is the same thing as saying fighters are amazing because they can wield powerful magic weapons- wizards only get tons of spells if the DM allows certain things with WBL, the same way a fighter's weapon is only amazing if the DM does certain other things with WBL. An old-school game where WBL is ignored and +lol swords are plentiful but no one will sell you spells, sorcerer looks a lot more attractive.
Yeah, if the DM literally does not allow the wizard to make use of his class features, he isn't very good. In fact, if the DM is being an ass about the number of spells you can learn, there are several class features/feats you can pick to get more. Or just not actually play a wizard, because a wizard who can't learn more spells is obviously very bad.

Ieagleroar

2016-11-05, 03:00 AM

Pugwampy

2016-11-05, 03:15 AM

This game wants everyone to shine so it encourages specializing . You want to wow your friends and make a huge impact , you have to specialize .

Sorcerer is a better choice if you are a newbie spell castor .

Sorcerer shines in extended combat scenarios . Wizards run out spells too quick or they are stuck saving their spells for the right moment . Sorcerer just keeps on blasting . Blaster wizard is a pistol. Blaster Sorcerer is a machine gun

Bloodline bonuses a very nice add on . This class reminds me of Xmen . Sorcerers are literally mutants .

A Wizard gives up so much just to access higher level spells ASAP and collecting any spell he wants .

Wizard needs info on the situation and bad guys so he can pick the perfect spell the end the fight........but thats usually not the case .

Gruftzwerg

2016-11-05, 03:23 AM

If you are trapped down a well, covered in ankle deep water with precisely 1/8th inch thick moss on top, and you are holding your party's main fighters third toe on his left foot by a piece of string, and you look up and relies that the the sun is directly overhead, and the time in-game is precisely 12:14, then the sorcerer is better than the wizard. However, at all other times the wizard is superior.

However, I did once hear that sorcerer's had bigger d***s so that's a plus!

Translates to: When you have a super optimized Sorcerer in his niche Situation, than he will be superior. It's just that it almost never happens. Sorcerer builds that are that high optimized are rare and are almost never played.

This game wants everyone to shine so it encourages specializing . You want to wow your friends and make a huge impact , you have to specialize .

Sorcerer is a better choice if you are a newbie spell castor .

Sorcerer shines in extended combat scenarios . Wizards run out spells too quick or they are stuck saving their spells for the right moment . Sorcerer just keeps on blasting . Blaster wizard is a pistol. Blaster Sorcerer is a machine gun

Bloodline bonuses a very nice add on . This class reminds me of Xmen . Sorcerers are literally mutants .

A Wizard gives up so much just to access higher level spells ASAP and collecting any spell he wants .

Wizard needs info on the situation and bad guys so he can pick the perfect spell the end the fight........but thats usually not the case .

Translates to: When the the caster optimization in the group ends at "blaster" (the worst optimization)

stanprollyright

2016-11-05, 03:48 AM

In a way, saying wizards are amazing because they know so many spells is the same thing as saying fighters are amazing because they can wield powerful magic weapons- wizards only get tons of spells if the DM allows certain things with WBL, the same way a fighter's weapon is only amazing if the DM does certain other things with WBL.

This is a good point.

It's also DM/campaign-dependent in a lot of other ways. Wizards are obviously better when there is a lot of downtime and/or 5-minute adventuring days, as well as when the players have a lot of freedom. It's easy for a Wizard to say, "let's attack that black dragon in his lair" and prepare a bunch of spells for dragon-killing. But if the dragon attacks at random, the Wizard could easily get caught with a list full of inappropriate spells. Or worse, the dragon's lair that you prepared for is actually filled with zombies. Even if you're a good wizard who is prepared for everything, there are necessarily spells that aren't appropriate on any given day, and anything you prepare and don't cast is a waste. You've probably got something decent, but after you cast it you're looking at increasingly subpar options. Maybe you've got an appropriate wand or scroll stashed away somewhere, but a Sorcerer could have or not have those just as easily. The solution to this, of course, is to prepare a list of the most useful and versatile spells you can, with duplicates of some, and maybe a slot or two per level to fill in with situational spells later. This core list of "general adventuring spells" looks exactly like a Sorcerer's list of spells known, except you also have to decide how many of each to prepare. Meanwhile, the Sorcerer gets to use his best trick every round.

Wizard is technically a better class, and at high levels and high optimization they are the Gods of D&D. But at the table, Sorcerers outperform Wizards all the time.

tsj

2016-11-05, 04:06 AM

Hm what if a home brew feat gives a sorcerer
ALL spells as known spells for a given level...
ie. Max spell level where he has all spells as known spells could be :

Spell level=
(Number of sorceror class levels / 2) -1

So a level 20 sorcerer has:
20/2 - 1 = 10-1 = 9

But it should have some drawbacks to avoid
overshadowing the Wizard

Maybe each time a spell is cast, the sorcerer takes his level times spell level in damage?

ryu

2016-11-05, 04:11 AM

This is a good point.

It's also DM/campaign-dependent in a lot of other ways. Wizards are obviously better when there is a lot of downtime and/or 5-minute adventuring days, as well as when the players have a lot of freedom. It's easy for a Wizard to say, "let's attack that black dragon in his lair" and prepare a bunch of spells for dragon-killing. But if the dragon attacks at random, the Wizard could easily get caught with a list full of inappropriate spells. Or worse, the dragon's lair that you prepared for is actually filled with zombies. Even if you're a good wizard who is prepared for everything, there are necessarily spells that aren't appropriate on any given day, and anything you prepare and don't cast is a waste. You've probably got something decent, but after you cast it you're looking at increasingly subpar options. Maybe you've got an appropriate wand or scroll stashed away somewhere, but a Sorcerer could have or not have those just as easily. The solution to this, of course, is to prepare a list of the most useful and versatile spells you can, with duplicates of some, and maybe a slot or two per level to fill in with situational spells later. This core list of "general adventuring spells" looks exactly like a Sorcerer's list of spells known, except you also have to decide how many of each to prepare. Meanwhile, the Sorcerer gets to use his best trick every round.

Wizard is technically a better class, and at high levels and high optimization they are the Gods of D&D. But at the table, Sorcerers outperform Wizards all the time.

The correct answer to cave full of zombies assuming you can't simply kill them outright is wall of stone to block the entrance, and come back the next day. They're zombies. If you'd listed something actually threatening that can't be easily trapped in a single spell it might have been an argument.

Similarly the intelligent answer to surprise attack by an unknown or unexpected thing is escape. As a caster you've the power to face the world on your terms. Use it.

ShurikVch

2016-11-05, 05:41 AM

I can't find rules for Spell Repository - it allow to switch known spells (should work like Power Repository from Magic of Eberron)
Anybody know where it may be?

Fizban

2016-11-05, 05:48 AM

Yeah, if the DM literally does not allow the wizard to make use of his class features, he isn't very good. In fact, if the DM is being an ass about the number of spells you can learn, there are several class features/feats you can pick to get more. Or just not actually play a wizard, because a wizard who can't learn more spells is obviously very bad.
You just stepped in the bait. The wizard's class features don't guarantee anything about buying spells from other people, they only guarantee two spells per level up and the ability to add other spells found in other books. Purchasing copyrights for spells from other wizards is in the magical writing section, availability of purchases are always under the DM's banner, and the price given is far from a guarantee with the word "usually." Why do you think I mentioned "old-school?" Normally I use it more like an insult, but the fact remains that tons of people played that way in the past and more than enough still do today. Wizards can know tons of spells, on paper, but that doesn't guarantee them anything except in a vacuum.

A wizard who only gets their free spells on level up is. . . still a wizard. Not so dominant that sorcerer is obviously inferior, but still getting spells a whole level faster, still has specialization to laugh at the supposedly lower spells known, and of course still has even more feats and ACFs that a sorcerer can't touch because wizard, including multiple ways to increase those free spells known. Being able to buy extra spells is a luxury bonus, not a requirement for class to work. I find it greatly amusing that the first response to the possibility of losing one of the strongest gravy abilities in the game is to boycott the whole class.

Chulehdoido

2016-11-05, 09:02 AM

Sorcerer is based on charisma, it is far superior than int.(Charisma Synergy: Apply Charisma to everything)

Sorcerer have better metamagic(Arcane SpellSurge + Spontaneous Casting)

Sorcerer have acess to ANY spell(Rings of Theurgy + Binding Spells) = Planetars, Elemental Weirdy, Abeil Queen and others transfering spells to Rings of Theurgy

Sorcerer have more daily spells

Sorcerer can easily expand your spell know: Knowstones, Drakehelm, Runestaves, Scrolls, wands, Dragonblood Spell-pact, Rings of Theurgy

Sorcerer have better metamagic reducer options( Practical Metamagic, Undead Battery )

Undead Battery Feat + Repeat Summon Undead = Amazing pool of metamagic slot

Sorcerer have better actions(Arcane Spellsurge + Twin Repeat Greater Arcane Fusion(Standard Action) + Rapid Twin Repeat Greater Arcane Fusion(Swift Action))

Sorcerer have better Celerity Synergy(Twin Greater Arcane Fusion, Slot 7: Sanctum Greater Celerity Slot4 : Twin Celerity) = 4 Standard Action + 2 full round per GAF casted

Sorcerer is not limited by Sorcerer/Wizard list: Body outside Body, Transcend Mortality, Minute Form, Creeping Darkness are good options

Sorcerer is better with Shapechanging: Almost Every form are Charisma Based, a sorcerer is far superior.

Sorcerer have better multiclassing/gestalt options.

Sorcerer have Overpower sorcerer only spells: Arcane Fusion, Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, Arcane Spellsurge

Sorcerer have better Craft Contingent spell, Twin Greater Arcane Fusion is far superior pick

Dragonblooded Sorcerer ACF have acess to Use Magic Device

DM and enemies cant stolen your spells(Spellbook) :nale:

Inevitability

2016-11-05, 11:42 AM

Blackhawk748

2016-11-05, 11:45 AM

Similarly the intelligent answer to surprise attack by an unknown or unexpected thing is escape. As a caster you've the power to face the world on your terms. Use it.

No, the correct response is a Twinned Cold Substituted Lord of Uttercold Energy Admixture Electric Substituted Born of Three Thunders Arcane Thesis Scorching Ray. Honestly its like you're not even trying :smalltongue:

Jack_Simth

2016-11-05, 11:57 AM

Extra Anchovies

2016-11-05, 12:12 PM

I was listening to an old episode of the 3.5 Private Sanctuary Podcast the other day and they mentioned that they would never pick Wizard over Sorcerer, because a Wizard has so many options that it can be overwhelming, while with a Sorcerer, you only ever have to pick your favorite spells.

Well, the wizard can definitely look like that, and wizards definitely start with an overwhelming number of 1st-level spells, but I've found it's not really an issue in actual play. Getting two new spells per class level means that for much of your career you may well be running on four spells of each spell level whether you like it or not. Even if you can find scrolls and/or other wizards with the spells you're looking for, it can still take quite a while to actually get them into your spellbook. Study the scroll or spellbook takes "a day", which can be reasonably assumed to mean that it's the only major activity that can be undertaken on that day, and then scribing the spell requires a solid 24 hours of work (most of which is spent playing Minesweeper, probably). It also can cost a fair chunk of wealth to accumulate a spell for every situation between the 100*level GP for scribing and the cost of the scroll or the other wizard's lending fee (which could be a great deal higher than the suggested value).

It's clerics and druids that have the oh-so-many-options problem, because they pick from their entire list every day, and there's a lot of spells to sort through even just in PHB+Spell Compendium.

sleepyphoenixx

2016-11-05, 12:24 PM

In general, the wizard is the stronger class. There are, however, a number of spells that favor Sorcerers over wizards. The Charm and Planar Binding lines come to mind, as a Sorcerer has an easier time with Charisma checks.
That's true, but can you afford to spend a spell known on something like Planar Binding instead of something that you'll use daily? While it's still relevant?

Well, the wizard can definitely look like that, and wizards definitely start with an overwhelming number of 1st-level spells, but I've found it's not really an issue in actual play. Getting two new spells per class level means that for much of your career you may well be running on four spells of each spell level whether you like it or not. Even if you can find scrolls and/or other wizards with the spells you're looking for, it can still take quite a while to actually get them into your spellbook. Study the scroll or spellbook takes "a day", which can be reasonably assumed to mean that it's the only major activity that can be undertaken on that day, and then scribing the spell requires a solid 24 hours of work (most of which is spent playing Minesweeper, probably). It also can cost a fair chunk of wealth to accumulate a spell for every situation between the 100*level GP for scribing and the cost of the scroll or the other wizard's lending fee (which could be a great deal higher than the suggested value).

Well i can't talk about your campaigns but the assumption for discussion is that it works as written in the DMG. That a wizard will get at least some opportunity to scribe spells, and at least close to the listed cost.
And unless your party never fights wizards at all you should also get spellbooks as loot that you can transcribe from before selling them or keeping them as spares.

Otherwise we have to stop talking about generic wizards vs generic sorcerers and compare specific builds for specific campaigns, because "the DM makes sure class x sucks" will always mean that class y is a better choice.

Blackhawk748

2016-11-05, 12:26 PM

That's true, but can you afford to spend a spell known on something like Planar Binding instead of something that you'll use daily? While it's still relevant?

As always is the answer for Sorcerers and niche spells, Runestaves of Knowstones. Frankly id learn Magic Circle vs Evil though, as i can see myself casting that fairly regularly.

Well i can't talk about your campaigns but the assumption for discussion is that it works as written in the DMG. That a wizard will get at least some opportunity to scribe spells, and at least close to the listed cost.
And unless your party never fights wizards at all you should also get spellbooks as loot that you can transcribe from before selling them or keeping them as spares.

Otherwise we have to stop talking about generic wizards vs generic sorcerers and compare specific builds for specific campaigns, because "the DM makes sure class x sucks" will always mean that class y is a better choice.

Even if you get Spellbook loot, you still have to pay to put it in yours, and that gets expensive fast. I think its why most of the times i've seen my players play Wizards (its not common) they usually dont spend a lot of money on getting extra spells. I mean they get a few specific ones they wanted, but otherwise they live with what they get naturally. Mostly because if you buy to many spells you cant afford that Staff/Hat of Intellect/Ring of Wizardy etc.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-11-05, 12:30 PM

(Sorcerers have more spells per day and better weapons)Sorcerers only have more spells per day on the spells that matter on the even levels between 4 and 18, plus 19 and 20. Since wizards have an entire additional set of spell levels on all the other levels, they actually have more spells per day for the spell levels that matter, with even higher levels than what sorcerers get. So that's not a benefit sorcerers can call theirs, because wizards are better on that front for about half the levels in the game (and more of the levels that are frequently played, at that).

Erit

2016-11-05, 12:34 PM

And unless your party never fights wizards at all you should also get spellbooks as loot that you can transcribe from before selling them or keeping them as spares.

This is true, but there probably aren't that many good spells that one wouldn't already have on a work-a-day wizard book. It'd be fairly slow expansion between repertoire overlap and spellbooks/scrolls potentially being damaged beyond usability during the combat. The latter is only a concern if the DM makes it one, but it's one that's been fairly common in my experience.

As for Wizard vs Sorcerer? The Wizard wins every situation in a ratio so close to 100% as makes no odds. They simply have more tricks available to them because WoTC favored the class they named themselves after. Sorcerers do, however, come out on top in two ways: Thematics, and gishing.

BaronDoctor

2016-11-05, 12:48 PM

Assuming a spell is available, a Sorcerer or a Wizard can have it. Sure, sorcerers might need to have it in their pocket rather than in their book or brain, but they'll have it.

Sure, there are some corner cases (Arcane Fusion etc.) vs (Lucubration etc.), but there's also ways around them (Wyrm Wizard etc)

So the question is this: is getting spells a level earlier and the ability to theoretically acquire "all the spells" worth the altered proficiencies (who cares), skill list (with what skill points?), fewer spells (if you know your target and you have enough punch, one spell should be all you need), and need to prepare spells (oh. Crap. That's the one that's the problem.).

Here's the thing: a wizard with time and the ability to research can move the world. They'll know the correct questions to ask via COP, etc. How many times do you actually experience the three things necessary to have that?

A) Brilliant player. Look, I'm not. I can be clever. I can be craft contingent spell clever, I can be Words-of-Creation-On-A-Bard clever, I can even be rainbow warsnake clever. The ability to actually put together ALL the right QUESTIONS requires a level of brilliance I haven't achieved. The ability to know enough spells to know something perfect for just this situation requires a level of brilliance I haven't achieved.

B) DM willing to go along with your shenanigans. There's a lot of moving parts and the absence of any one of them impairs how well the "move the world" process works. Sorcerers, as long as you can get some decent general-use spells you're golden.

C) Agreeable party. It's a table game, and a table game not played alone or with just a DM, and if that's the case you have to balance "This is the theoretical best way to do things" with "Jim, you've been going over contingencies, scrying the warlord's fortress, and picking spells for the last three hours, we still haven't gotten any closer to saving the princess from the warlord that took her hostage, and now it's 2 am and I have work in the morning, I'm calling it a night."

If you have all of those? Go for wizard. Enjoy your game. I wouldn't mind watching sometime.

If you don't? If you're clever and crafty like me but not knock socks off brilliant? If your DM has limits and pushing them seems like a bad idea? If your group isn't interested in playing Brilliant Wizard And Minions?

Sorcerer's pretty darn good. There's tricks around getting spells later, around not having a ton of spells.

A wizard carries spells like grenades: find a good time to use one and throw it, knowing you aren't getting it back. A sorcerer carries spells like superpowers: Useful things they can do a bunch. Considering more groups tend to play like Burn Notice and less like Mission Impossible? Sorcerers tend to do quite well.

Chulehdoido

2016-11-05, 12:51 PM

As for Wizard vs Sorcerer? The Wizard wins every situation in a ratio so close to 100% as makes no odds. They simply have more tricks available to them because WoTC favored the class they named themselves after. Sorcerers do, however, come out on top in two ways: Thematics, and gishing.

Clearly wrong.
Sorcerer can throw multiples spells per round. They are far superior in action economy.
Sorcerer can use all Wizard tricks, but sorcerer have exclusive tricks, Greater Arcane Fusion combos/Undead Battery cheese/Celerity Synergy/Zhentarim Skymage synergy
Sorcerer have acess to every spell.(Theurgy Rings)
Sorcerer + Zhentarim Skymage = Overpowered Dragon Pet Familiar!!
I can not see a single trick that the sorcerer can not do.

sleepyphoenixx

2016-11-05, 12:58 PM

As always is the answer for Sorcerers and niche spells, Runestaves of Knowstones. Frankly id learn Magic Circle vs Evil though, as i can see myself casting that fairly regularly.

Even if you get Spellbook loot, you still have to pay to put it in yours, and that gets expensive fast. I think its why most of the times i've seen my players play Wizards (its not common) they usually dont spend a lot of money on getting extra spells. I mean they get a few specific ones they wanted, but otherwise they live with what they get naturally. Mostly because if you buy to many spells you cant afford that Staff/Hat of Intellect/Ring of Wizardy etc.

Wait, so your sorcerers can spend thousands on Runestaves and Knowstones but the wizard can't afford a few hundred gp to scribe a new spell in his book?

As for copying, you get more out of scribing the spells you want/don't already know and selling the looted book, but you could also just keep it. There are rules to prepare spells from another wizards book directly. Which is rather useful until you have the downtime to scribe.

This is true, but there probably aren't that many good spells that one wouldn't already have on a work-a-day wizard book. It'd be fairly slow expansion between repertoire overlap and spellbooks/scrolls potentially being damaged beyond usability during the combat. The latter is only a concern if the DM makes it one, but it's one that's been fairly common in my experience.

You don't have to copy many spells. You're already ahead as it is, and just getting a few spells per level more is already invaluable.
Even if your DM is stingy and only has the spells in the NPC wizard's book that he actually had prepared that day, do you honestly want to tell me that there's only 4 good spells per level on the wizard list that NPC wizards are likely to use?

As for spellbooks being destroyed, that's a blatant "**** you, wizard" by the DM and everyone knows it.
Worn or carried items only get damaged on a natural 1 saving throw vs area damage, and if it's not on his person it's likely secured in some way because it's a wizards spellbook, and i hear wizards are kinda font of those.
I'm assuming for the sake of argument that your DM is not a jerk who has it out for you.

Troacctid

2016-11-05, 01:07 PM

This paragraph (see below) implies that it isn't a requirement to "Advance by Age" to qualify as True Dragon. It suggests the DM to give all other True Dragons "Advance by Age" with the help of Table 3-22. Sorry but it's clear that your assumption is false here. It's more a DM decision, if he'll give D.Kobolds "Advance by Age" or not!
Advancing by age means increasing your level adjustment and racial HD as you get older. Why would you WANT your DM to add that to kobolds? It would be a massive nerf.

In any case, the text is only referring to the tables used to adapt the mechanic for gradual level-ups. Other true dragons advance by age in the same way, there just aren't instructions on how PCs can do it one level at a time rather than in big chunks. (Cf. the racial classes in Savage Species—monsters without racial classes are still playable, there just isn't any guidance on how to play them from level 1 if they have LA and RHD.)

edit: since I can guess what will come next:
you won't find any Dragonwrought Kobold Statblock where "Advance: by class" stands, cause we only have Statblocks for regular Kobolds, not Dragonwrought Kobolds.
Dragonwrought is just a feat, you know. It's not a separate race. There's also no statblock for Craft Scroll Kobolds or Skill Focus (Decipher Script) Kobolds, but does there really need to be? Feats don't change your racial features unless they specifically say they do.

Blackhawk748

2016-11-05, 01:07 PM

Wait, so your sorcerers can spend thousands on Runestaves and Knowstones but the wizard can't afford a few hundred gp to scribe a new spell in his book?

As for copying, you get more out of scribing the spells you want/don't already know and selling the looted book, but you could also just keep it. There are rules to prepare spells from another wizards book directly. Which is rather useful until you have the downtime to scribe.

Firstly, that was just about Planar Binding not spells in general, i don't use it, but if i wanted to thats how id go about it. Secondly I didnt say spell, i said spells, and a single Runestave isn't super expensive and usually has like 4 different spells. Mostly its cuz whenever this conversation comes up people always say "The Wizard has that spell and that one, and that one etc" and if you price it out the Wizard will have spent something like 20K on just spells, and, frankly, i've never even heard of a player doing that.

Yes you can, IIRC you have to figure out how they wrote it cuz tend to write in code. Cuz Wizards are a bunch of paranoid nutjobs.

Zanos

2016-11-05, 01:07 PM

I feel a great disturbance in the Playground, as if a thousand optimizers cried out and were suddenly silenced...
He's returned...

Blackhawk748

2016-11-05, 01:10 PM

He's returned...

I hope not, but he is bringing up some valid points. I just disagree that Sorcerers are always superior to Wizards, just like how i disagree that Wizards are always superior to Sorcerers

Chulehdoido

2016-11-05, 01:11 PM

The last adventure, a level 11 wizard challenged me, I was at level 9(Sorcerer6/Zhentarim Skymage3) with good charisma items. He laughed and said never a sorcerer would be able to defeat it. He was Initiate of The Sevenfold Veil.
I found him to an arcane duel with me and little pet !!
Zhentarim Skymage
Grey Linnorm Dragon (MM II page 141).
He was eaten and turned into ghost in my service.
Was funny watch the wizard casting Sudden Maximize Shivering Touch agains my little pet. He fail, Sharing my Wings of Cover.
:belkar::belkar:

That was really funny, Charisma is far superior to intelligence.

GilesTheCleric

2016-11-05, 01:32 PM

He's returned...

*crosses fingers for more hunky topless sorcerers*

Erit

2016-11-05, 01:42 PM

You don't have to copy many spells. You're already ahead as it is, and just getting a few spells per level more is already invaluable.
Even if your DM is stingy and only has the spells in the NPC wizard's book that he actually had prepared that day, do you honestly want to tell me that there's only 4 good spells per level on the wizard list that NPC wizards are likely to use?

As for spellbooks being destroyed, that's a blatant "**** you, wizard" by the DM and everyone knows it.
Worn or carried items only get damaged on a natural 1 saving throw vs area damage, and if it's not on his person it's likely secured in some way because it's a wizards spellbook, and i hear wizards are kinda font of those.
I'm assuming for the sake of argument that your DM is not a jerk who has it out for you.

I'm not saying it's impossible to learn every spell in all creation through spellbook loot. I'm not even saying it'd be particularly difficult. It would just be slow, because even if an NPC caster spent their entire WBL on scribing spells into their book, 3/5ths of their spells are probably going to be ones the PC Wizard already has because they're good spells to pick for work-a-day use. Niche spells aren't the ones you grab immediately, not when you know that the next level you're going to be fighting a lot of things vulnerable to Sleep.

As for the doucheyness of my DM, well... one of them has no idea what they're doing, and the other stacks the deck against the party because all but one of us have a knack for esoteric solutions. It's another reason I play Sorcerer; he agrees to not look at my spells known except to check that everything's legit, so that I can always have an ace in the hole to surprise him with.

ryu

2016-11-05, 03:17 PM

I'm not saying it's impossible to learn every spell in all creation through spellbook loot. I'm not even saying it'd be particularly difficult. It would just be slow, because even if an NPC caster spent their entire WBL on scribing spells into their book, 3/5ths of their spells are probably going to be ones the PC Wizard already has because they're good spells to pick for work-a-day use. Niche spells aren't the ones you grab immediately, not when you know that the next level you're going to be fighting a lot of things vulnerable to Sleep.

As for the doucheyness of my DM, well... one of them has no idea what they're doing, and the other stacks the deck against the party because all but one of us have a knack for esoteric solutions. It's another reason I play Sorcerer; he agrees to not look at my spells known except to check that everything's legit, so that I can always have an ace in the hole to surprise him with.

And... and you don't think multiplying your spells known by 1.66 or so is worth a few days of effort? What? What the WHAT?! That's huge.

Erit

2016-11-05, 03:45 PM

And... and you don't think multiplying your spells known by 1.66 or so is worth a few days of effort? What? What the WHAT?! That's huge.

Ne'er said anything like that. Note that earlier I said Wizards are all-but-entirely superior to Sorcerers in all but two already negligible categories. All I'm saying is that if you limit the Wizard to acquiring spells from pilfered tomes and scrolls, their ascent to GodWizardHood slows considerably. If you want GodWizardHood, time is very obviously not a concern to you, but it does mean effort vaguely closer to proportional with the reward must be put in.

Troacctid

2016-11-05, 04:07 PM

Spontaneous casting is a more powerful mechanic than prepared casting. It's just that sorcerers are nerfed so hard compared to wizards that they're a lot less powerful overall.

Mordaedil

2016-11-05, 04:15 PM

*crosses fingers for more hunky topless sorcerers*

Sorcerers: My offense has no defense.

Tvtyrant

2016-11-05, 04:20 PM

The truth is that at higher optimization levels the innate abilities of different classes become less important. Anyone can get infinite wishes, or cut someone on an alter to get chain-pit fiends going, etc. The discussion is only really meaningful if we assume that low levels of optimization are happening, in which case the Wizard is slightly better but not excessively so.

Inevitability

2016-11-05, 04:28 PM

He's returned...

I wonder if we could start some kind of Drakocult around here. Think about it: the guy is sanity-damaging, ever-returning, and while not truly visible to our mortal eyes horrifying in the shapes he surrounds himself with. That's three out of three on the elder evil checklist.

sleepyphoenixx

2016-11-05, 05:06 PM

Spontaneous casting is a more powerful mechanic than prepared casting. It's just that sorcerers are nerfed so hard compared to wizards that they're a lot less powerful overall.

It also doesn't help that there are plenty of options to make wizards quasi-spontaneous, taking away the supposed limit of having to prepare spells in advance.

A wizard with a Runestaff of his most commonly used spells can prepare whatever he likes and still cast the staples as often as necessary. Make it an Ancestral Relic while you're at it and you can update it whenever you have a day free.
Then there's items like the Robe of Mysterious Conjuration which lets you lose a slot for SM as a standard action 3/day. And spontaneous access to SM adds a whole lot of spells, quite a few not even on the wizard list.
Drop Uncanny Forethought on top of that and the only drawback of being prepared that's left is needing an hour in the morning instead of 15 minutes.

ryu

2016-11-05, 05:13 PM

It also doesn't help that there are plenty of options to make wizards quasi-spontaneous, taking away the supposed limit of having to prepare spells in advance.

A wizard with a Runestaff of his most commonly used spells can prepare whatever he likes and still cast the staples as often as necessary. Make it an Ancestral Relic while you're at it and you can update it whenever you have a day free.
Then there's items like the Robe of Mysterious Conjuration which lets you lose a slot for SM as a standard action 3/day. And spontaneous access to SM adds a whole lot of spells, quite a few not even on the wizard list.
Drop Uncanny Forethought on top of that and the only drawback of being prepared that's left is needing an hour in the morning instead of 15 minutes.

Or the even more aggressive option of spontaneous divination, versatile spellcaster. All divination spells work just like a sorcerer, all other spells work like that with a minor cost. You'll technically cast less total spells per day if you use this a lot, but they'll be higher level and thus more impactful. You have more spells known, more versatility with number of slots, metamagic that isn't hamstrung, and faster progression.

Blackhawk748

2016-11-05, 05:23 PM

Or the even more aggressive option of spontaneous divination, versatile spellcaster. All divination spells work just like a sorcerer, all other spells work like that with a minor cost. You'll technically cast less total spells per day if you use this a lot, but they'll be higher level and thus more impactful. You have more spells known, more versatility with number of slots, metamagic that isn't hamstrung, and faster progression.

Ok, the bolded part is just wrong. The Sorcerer's Metamagic is superior to the Wizard's because it can be applied whenever you want for the cost of a full round action, which can be removed by the feat Rapid Metamagic. Or you can leave and take the spell Arcane Spellsurge and break action economy over your knee.

ryu

2016-11-05, 05:45 PM

Ok, the bolded part is just wrong. The Sorcerer's Metamagic is superior to the Wizard's because it can be applied whenever you want for the cost of a full round action, which can be removed by the feat Rapid Metamagic. Or you can leave and take the spell Arcane Spellsurge and break action economy over your knee.

Except in that build you can still metamagic as you please and you don't have to full round action feat or no. You also have the ability to use quicken with only one feat.

sleepyphoenixx

2016-11-05, 05:51 PM

Except in that build you can still metamagic as you please and you don't have to full round action feat or no. You also have the ability to use quicken with only one feat.

The rule for metamagic and spontaneous spellcasting isn't restricted to sorcerers, it's a general rule.
It applies to everyone casting spontaneously, be it a sorcerer, a druid casting a spontaneous SNA, a cleric casting a spontaneous cure/inflict or a wizard using spontanous divination.

ryu

2016-11-05, 05:58 PM

The rule for metamagic and spontaneous spellcasting isn't restricted to sorcerers, it's a general rule.
It applies to everyone casting spontaneously, be it a sorcerer, a druid casting a spontaneous SNA, a cleric casting a spontaneous cure/inflict or a wizard using spontanous divination.

Except you're entirely free to prepare quickens as you please. You're entirely free to prepare whatever metamagic you like. You have the freedom to use the benefits of either option as it suits you and all it takes you is five minutes of planning. That's less expensive than a feat.

sleepyphoenixx

2016-11-05, 06:23 PM

Except you're entirely free to prepare quickens as you please. You're entirely free to prepare whatever metamagic you like. You have the freedom to use the benefits of either option as it suits you and all it takes you is five minutes of planning. That's less expensive than a feat.
You mean except the feat you spent on Versatile Spellcaster and the one you gave up for Spontaneous Divination?
Not to mention that casting spells with Versatile Spellcaster, while fine occassionally, gets rather inefficient if you try to rely on it.

Sorcerers on the other hand get an ACF for that. Limited to 3+Int times per day, but it's enough if all you use it for is quicken. Everything else you apply spontaneously.
It's actually superior to picking up Rapid Metamagic because it still lets you use the Arcane Spellsurge option.

So yeah. Sorcerers may not have much, but in this one field they're the superior choice imo, but how much you value it depends on your playstyle.

Spontaneous metamagic isn't all that valuable when you already know at the start of the day which spells you want to metamagic.
It's pretty rare in my experience to suddenly find yourself in a situation where you say "i wish i'd prepared that with metamagic this morning" if you put some thought into your spell loadout.
If you can't do that i'll suggest playing a sorcerer, but it's hardly a limit of the class. That's all the player.

Troacctid

2016-11-05, 06:27 PM

sleepyphoenixx

2016-11-05, 06:36 PM

If I were making a metamagic-focused sorcerer, I'd personally much prefer to trade my familiar away for Impromptu Metamagic (Dragon #357) than Metamagic Specialist. It seems waaay better, and it's available to both sorcerers and wizards (and any other arcane caster who gets a familiar as a class feature).

4 free metamagic levels a day isn't that much. It would be different if it scaled, but the metamagic feats where i care the most about reducers are those with the bigger adjustments, and a single free use a day isn't worth much imo.
You can also get the same benefit by getting Midnight Metamagic (MoI). If i'm trading out my familiar i'd prefer to get something unique.

Also Dragon content is on the table i'd go with the Imbued Staff option myself. I love that one.

ryu

2016-11-05, 06:57 PM

You mean except the feat you spent on Versatile Spellcaster and the one you gave up for Spontaneous Divination?
Not to mention that casting spells with Versatile Spellcaster, while fine occassionally, gets rather inefficient if you try to rely on it.

Sorcerers on the other hand get an ACF for that. Limited to 3+Int times per day, but it's enough if all you use it for is quicken. Everything else you apply spontaneously.
It's actually superior to picking up Rapid Metamagic because it still lets you use the Arcane Spellsurge option.

So yeah. Sorcerers may not have much, but in this one field they're the superior choice imo, but how much you value it depends on your playstyle.

Spontaneous metamagic isn't all that valuable when you already know at the start of the day which spells you want to metamagic.
It's pretty rare in my experience to suddenly find yourself in a situation where you say "i wish i'd prepared that with metamagic this morning" if you put some thought into your spell loadout.
If you can't do that i'll suggest playing a sorcerer, but it's hardly a limit of the class. That's all the player.

Hey wizards get more bonus feats. They're well within their rights to use them more liberally and point out where you use a resource more limited to you. Also like I said fewer total spells per day if you use it a lot, but of higher level and thus impact. Suddenly all my cantrips and firsts have some kind of point even at mid to high levels. Incidentally that was the intended use of the feat for people with native access to it. It's not my fault wizards get more out of it in addition to the original purpose.

Gruftzwerg

2016-11-05, 08:49 PM

Advancing by age means increasing your level adjustment and racial HD as you get older. Why would you WANT your DM to add that to kobolds? It would be a massive nerf.
I never said that I would want it and that it would be a good idea. I just said that "advancing by age" isn't a requirement and it's up to the DM to give it to D. Kobold or not. It was just to prove your assumption of a requirement wrong, nothing else.
So, if you are DMing for a RAW group and want to deny true dragon D.Kobolds, just force em to "Advance by Age" and PC won't be able to play a regular build. But that still doesn't prevent D.Kobolds from being True Dragons.

Dragonwrought is just a feat, you know. It's not a separate race. There's also no statblock for Craft Scroll Kobolds or Skill Focus (Decipher Script) Kobolds, but does there really need to be? Feats don't change your racial features unless they specifically say they do.

Sorry, but since creature sub-/type change it is another race. You loose your humanoid status and your conclusion isn't a race change?
It's like Elves and Drow or Druegar and Dwarfs. They are similar but still different Races.
Yeah it's a feat, so what? Is there any rule that feats may not change your race or something that I am not aware off? It's a lvl1 feat that let's you start as special version/subrace of your original race. But it's still a completely different Race like in the case with the Elf or Dwarf races.

Maybe my arguments sound strange (cause RAW doesn't make always sense), but that's how RAW works. IMHO I am not aware of any RAW sentence that would restrict D.Kobolds from being True Dragon (exception some fluff text here and there which even contradicts existing true dragons and their size and appearance).

PS: You'll have a much easier time with reading text the RAW way if you don't want to force an outcome. You try so hard to disqualify D.Kobold from counting as True Dragons that you can't read text proper in a RAW way it seems to me (no offense here, we all face the same problem if we expect an outcome from something).
_______________________________________

back on topic:

really nice to see how many special options a sorcerer can get. But I have still the same opinion: you need a totally over-optimized sorcerer to be able to keep up/overshadow a wizard.
The question that remains is, what happens if the wizard comes up with the same degree of optimization?

Chulehdoido

2016-11-05, 08:55 PM

The only advantage of the wizard is to have access to more spells know, but this is easily countered by Knowstones, Drake Helm, Runestaves, Rings of Theurgy, Dragonblood Spell-Pact, Psychic Reformation.
To be honest, Sorcerer can have access to any spell, including divine spells(Rings of Theurgy): Daley Death, Greater deitie Visage, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Surge of Fortune, Consumptive Field Spell, Miracle, Choose Destiny, Blasphemy, Holy Word etc.
That is, the weirder it seems the sorcerer is even more versatile than the Wizard.
Synergy with charisma is the key to victory. Incredibly useful.(Applying Charisma to everything, Zhentarim Skymage PET, Marshal level1 etc)
The sorcerer is the best Arcane persistomancer. He can use Undead Battery feat + Summon Undead to persist any magic.
Rapid Metamagic + Arcane Spellsurge does it have the best action economy caster of the game.
Sorcerer only spells = Greater Arcane Fusion, Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry are keys to victory.
Greater Arcane Fusion allow the sorcerer throw multiples spells per round, including multiples celerity spells.

I being honest, I cant see any way in which a Wizard is better than a Sorcerer.

really nice to see how many special options a sorcerer can get. But I have still the same opinion: you need a totally over-optimized sorcerer to be able to keep up/overshadow a wizard.
The question that remains is, what happens if the wizard comes up with the same degree of optimization?

I'm not restricting optimization to be a powerful sorcerer, need only:
- Access to Only Sorcerer spells
- Undead Battery Feat
- Zhentarim Skymage PET
- Expand Spells know
- Good Spell Selection

To be honest, optimized wizard makes no difference.

Gruftzwerg

2016-11-05, 09:11 PM

I being honest, I cant see any way in which a Wizard is better than a Sorcerer.

sure, you have some valid points and I am almost convinced. But the comprehension would be more authentic if a "wizard-optimizer"(fanboy^^?) would show up and showcase a few wizard only tricks.

Troacctid

2016-11-05, 09:15 PM

I never said that I would want it and that it would be a good idea. I just said that "advancing by age" isn't a requirement and it's up to the DM to give it to D. Kobold or not. It was just to prove your assumption of a requirement wrong, nothing else.
It is a requirement. True dragons advance by age category. It is one of their defining characteristics and is what separates them from lesser dragons. A dragon with "a set level adjustment and no built-in progression due to age" is a lesser dragon. This is in Draconomicon.

What other definition of "true dragon" are you looking at where dragonwrought kobolds qualify?

Yeah it's a feat, so what? Is there any rule that feats may not change your race or something that I am not aware off? It's a lvl1 feat that let's you start as special version/subrace of your original race. But it's still a completely different Race like in the case with the Elf or Dwarf races.
The rule is that feats only do what they say they do. Since it doesn't say it changes your advancement, it doesn't change your advancement. It certainly doesn't change your race—if it did, it simply would not function, as you would lose the "kobold" prerequisite and, with it, all benefits of the feat.

Chulehdoido

2016-11-05, 09:16 PM

sure, you have some valid points and I am almost convinced. But the comprehension would be more authentic if a "wizard-optimizer"(fanboy^^?) would show up and showcase a few wizard only tricks.

I do not think there is any trick the wizard to do the sorcerer do not.

Afgncaap5

2016-11-05, 09:32 PM

I'm imagining a Wizard and Sorcerer reading this thread, looking at each other, and just enchanting a commoner to flip a coin to settle it all.

Extra Anchovies

2016-11-05, 09:48 PM

The only advantage of the wizard is to have access to more spells know, but this is easily countered by Knowstones, Drake Helm, Runestaves, Rings of Theurgy, Dragonblood Spell-Pact, Psychic Reformation.

All of those are possible, but none of them can be guaranteed outside of cheesing early Wishes for magic items. And when it comes to Wish cheese, wizards are better at that, too, because the easiest way to get a Wish (Pazuzu summoning) relies on a Knowledge check.

Knowstones, Drake Helms, and Runestaves rely on magic-mart or a friendly caster. Rings of Theurgy only allow spontaneous casters to use stored spells once each, and thus rely on a friendly caster for refills. Psychic Reformation relies on a friendly manifester. Dragonpacts are pretty neat though; my personal favorite is Master of Magical Defense.

To be honest, Sorcerer can have access to any spell, including divine spells(Rings of Theurgy): Daley Death, Greater deitie Visage, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Surge of Fortune, Consumptive Spell, Miracle, Choose Destiny, Blasphemy, Holy Word etc.

um

A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.

That doesn't say "duplicating an existing sorcerer/wizard spell", so wizards can not only get all of the spells you listed, they can get spells that do literally anything. Both independent spell research and bards/sorcerers learning off-list spells require DM permission.

That is, the weirder it seems the sorcerer is even more versatile than the Wizard.

At the odd levels, a wizard has a spell-level advantage over the sorcerer. At the even levels, a sorcerer only knows one spell of their highest level, while a same-level wizard will have four spells of their highest level in their spellbook. The flexibility within in the day can be neat, and things like Bloodline feats can help alleviate the problem, but out of the box a wizard is always more versatile than a sorcerer. A wizard can be taking metamagic or other goodies while a sorcerer's using feats to boost their spells known.

Synergy with charisma is the key to victory. Incredibly useful.

There's nothing stopping a wizard from having a high enough Charisma score to make good use of Cha-based options.

(Applying Charisma to everything, Zhentarim Skymage PET)

That's... a weird example to pick. Three feat taxes, and the capable-of-these-spells requirement is much costlier for a sorcerer than for a wizard.

The sorcerer is the best Arcane persistomancer. He can use Undead Batter feat + Summon Undead to persist any magic.

1. Third-party Dragonlance, so it's very dependent on DM approval.
2. Powering it with Summon Undead, Fell Animate, etc costs spell slots.
3. You can't persist any magic - you can only persist your own spells. The Incantatrix's Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect allow the user to apply their metamagic feats to spells other cast by other characters.

That being said, not needing to select metamagic feats ahead of time is a definite strong point of the sorcerer. It makes them better direct-damage casters, and is just a nice thing to have in general.

Rapid Metamagic + Arcane Spellsurge does it have the best action economy caster of the game.
Sorcerer only spells = Greater Arcane Fusion, Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry are keys to victory.

Nitpick: the two-spells-per-round thing actually doesn't work with Rapid Metamagic, because using the feat's benefits is non-optional.

When you apply a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell, the spell takes only its normal casting time.
If it were written to allow the caster to choose not to reduce the casting time, it would use language such as "you can" or "you may".

I being honest, I see no one wizard advantage.

At the highest levels of optimization there's no functional difference, because everyone is either Pun-Pun or a HIVE. Wizard is better than sorcerer out of the box, and while a sorcerer is spending build resources to catch up to the base wizard's capabilities, a similarly optimized wizard will have made further progress up the power scale. Instead of

Zanos

2016-11-05, 09:56 PM

We've been here before. Let's just back away slowly. It's spontaneous casting is based on motion.

ryu

2016-11-05, 10:11 PM

We've been here before. Let's just back away slowly. It's spontaneous casting is based on motion.

Now see this guy has the right idea. We've been on the lorddrako rodeo before, and we aren't riding again. It was well past played out the third time he showed up after getting banned.

Gruftzwerg

2016-11-05, 10:27 PM

It is a requirement. True dragons advance by age category. It is one of their defining characteristics and is what separates them from lesser dragons. A dragon with "a set level adjustment and no built-in progression due to age" is a lesser dragon. This is in Draconomicon.

again, Draconomicon tells you to give all "other true dragons" "advance by age", so it can't be a requirement to be a True Dragon who doesn't have it in it's "out of the box" rules/stats. So again... Draconomicon just suggests the DM to give it to all other True Dragons (incl. D.Kobold if we count em in as T.D.).

What other definition of "true dragon" are you looking at where dragonwrought kobolds qualify?
imho the only (or most important) requirement that isn't contradicting any other official material are the True Dragon Aging categories.
Only True Dragons have them. No other "lesser Dragon" or other creature has access. The only exception is the Dragonwrought Kobold. And like other True Dragons, D.Kobolds profit from the pure mental stat gain due to aging. These two aspects together (!) are sole found on true dragons and nowhere else.

Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons (which should not be taken to mean that they are necessarily less formidable than true dragons).
"advance through age categories" != "Advance by Age"
otherwise it would be contradicting that Draconomicon gives other True Dragons "Advance by Age" on page 144.
You can qualify for "advance through age categories" by getting pure gains from aging without penalties. This ("advance through age categories") qualifies a Dragon as True Dragon. And if the T.D. doesn't have "Advance by Age" in it's out of the box rules, than Draconomicon suggests on p144 that the DM should give it to them. Try to get the difference in the wording and that they have different meanings. And only "Advance by Age" is a set and defined term (because written bold with a special paragraph in Draconomicon).

The rule is that feats only do what they say they do. Since it doesn't say it changes your advancement, it doesn't change your advancement. It certainly doesn't change your race—if it did, it simply would not function, as you would lose the "kobold" prerequisite and, with it, all benefits of the feat.

The feat doesn't even need to change it. Cause it's the "other True Dragons" part of Draconomicon, that gives "all other True Dragons" that doesn't have it, access to it. It still isn't a requiment to become/count as True Dragon. How many times I need to repeat this paragraph (other True Dragons) until you realize the full impact rule wise?

Chulehdoido

2016-11-05, 10:29 PM

All of those are possible, but none of them can be guaranteed outside of cheesing early Wishes for magic items. And when it comes to Wish cheese, wizards are better at that, too, because the easiest way to get a Wish (Pazuzu summoning) relies on a Knowledge check.

Knowstones, Drake Helms, and Runestaves rely on magic-mart or a friendly caster. Rings of Theurgy only allow spontaneous casters to use stored spells once each, and thus rely on a friendly caster for refills. Psychic Reformation relies on a friendly manifester. Dragonpacts are pretty neat though; my personal favorite is Master of Magical Defense.

Zhentarim Skymage PET(Gray Linnorm MMII pg 141) and Binding Spell can refills Rings of Theurgy. All others item can be easily buying.

That doesn't say "duplicating an existing sorcerer/wizard spell", so wizards can not only get all of the spells you listed, they can get spells that do literally anything. Both independent spell research and bards/sorcerers learning off-list spells require DM permission.

A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. RAW

At the odd levels, a wizard has a spell-level advantage over the sorcerer. At the even levels, a sorcerer only knows one spell of their highest level, while a same-level wizard will have four spells of their highest level in their spellbook. The flexibility within in the day can be neat, and things like Bloodline feats can help alleviate the problem, but out of the box a wizard is always more versatile than a sorcerer. A wizard can be taking metamagic or other goodies while a sorcerer's using feats to boost their spells known.

Feats, why? Knowstones/Wands/Scrolls/Potions/Gray Linnorm Pet

There's nothing stopping a wizard from having a high enough Charisma score to make good use of Cha-based options.

It would be funny to see a wizard based on charisma. "I wanted to be a sorcerer, but I was forced to live with these nerds and my spells are weak"

That's... a weird example to pick. Three feat taxes, and the capable-of-these-spells requirement is much costlier for a sorcerer than for a wizard.

This is the cost to be extremely effective. Right?

That being said, not needing to select metamagic feats ahead of time is a definite strong point of the sorcerer. It makes them better direct-damage casters, and is just a nice thing to have in general.

Not only, it can cast multiples spells per round.

Nitpick: the two-spells-per-round thing actually doesn't work with Rapid Metamagic, because using the feat's benefits is non-optional.

If it were written to allow the caster to choose not to reduce the casting time, it would use language such as "you can" or "you may".

Persisted Arcane Spellsurge + Twin Greater Arcane Fusion(Standard Action) + Rapid Twin Greater Arcane Fusion(Swift Action) = 2 GAF per round.

At the highest levels of optimization there's no functional difference, because everyone is either Pun-Pun or a HIVE. Wizard is better than sorcerer out of the box, and while a sorcerer is spending build resources to catch up to the base wizard's capabilities, a similarly optimized wizard will have made further progress up the power scale. Instead of
Sorcerer can be Pun-Pun and HIVE is not Wizard. Another Problem HIVE is easily countered by Optimized Sorcerer.

Blackhawk748

2016-11-05, 10:42 PM

Sorcerer can be Pun-Pun and HIVE is not Wizard. Another Problem HIVE is easily countered by Optimized Sorcerer.

And this clinches it. We are at Deffcon 1. I repeat. Deffcon 1.

http://www.tripoetry.com/Film/Graphics/PHOTOS/300-SPARTANS/300-Spartan-Warriors.gif

Chulehdoido

2016-11-05, 10:49 PM

Mage disjunction / Evil Weather / Supernatural Wind Gust / Optimized Counterspell kills H.I.V.E with no chance to escape. Swarms cant teleport
The best part is, all H.I.V.E attack cant kill a optimized Sorcerer.
All contingencys spells is blocked by Mystic Shield spell

Optimized can also be a HIVEMIND. Dark Speech feat.
It dont matter, HIVE build is not a Wizard.

Gruftzwerg

2016-11-05, 10:51 PM

And this clinches it. We are at Deffcon 1. I repeat. Deffcon 1.

xD I feel the same.
I'll try to hide behind BoBaFeat^^ (can be: wizard, wu-jen or D.Kobold sorcerer)

edit: changed order to prevent misinterpretation.

Extra Anchovies

2016-11-05, 10:56 PM

Zhentarim Skymage PET(Gray Linnorm MMII pg 141) and Binding Spell can refills Rings of Theurgy.

So you're expecting to get a creature which casts as a 17th-level cleric approved as a "suitable mount". Classy. Also, taking a strict reading of the text, the listed options would be the only options, because "includes" is not synonymous with "includes but is not limited to".

Regardless, that has nothing to do with being a Sorcerer; it just requires 24 Charisma, which isn't hard. Venerable Dragonwrought +3, Belt of Magnificence +6, Tomes or Wishes +5, and we can do that from a starting score of 10.

All others item can be easily buying.

They rely on magic-mart or a friendly caster, yes. Access to specific treasure and/or allies can't be guaranteed.

A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. RAW

Independent research is a specific exception to the general rule. That's how this rules system works.

Feats, why? Knowstones/Wands/Scrolls/Potions/Gray Linnorm Pet

Treasure isn't guaranteed, particular monsters aren't guaranteed. If your character can't do something without magic items which they can't craft for themselves, then they can't do that thing and are relying on someone else (the item crafter) to do it for them.

Persisted Arcane Spellsurge + Twin Greater Arcane Fusion(Standard Action) + Rapid Twin Greater Arcane Fusion(Swift Action) = 2 GAF per round.

Ah, you mean the Rapid Spell feat, not the Rapid Metamagic feat.

I'll be taking my leave now.

Chulehdoido

2016-11-05, 11:11 PM

Independent research is a specific exception to the general rule. That's how this rules system works.
Wizard cast arcane spells drawn sorcerer/wizard list by RAW. It only say you can be independent research. Its specific talking about arcane spells/Arcane Magical Writings. This repeats for divine casting too, but still cast divine spells drawn cleric list.

Treasure isn't guaranteed, particular monsters aren't guaranteed. If your character can't do something without magic items which they can't craft for themselves, then they can't do that thing and are relying on someone else (the item crafter) to do it for them.

Dragon Ally, Lesser. Now Sorcerer have acess to find them.

Ah, you mean the Rapid Spell feat, not the Rapid Metamagic feat.
Yes, sorry, its Rapid Spell.

Pex

2016-11-06, 12:27 AM

I do like Pathfinder gave Sorcerers class features via bloodlines to give them interesting/fun things besides casting spells. Wizards have features too, which is a good thing. There are a lot of ways to flavor your character besides spell choice.

If you can't choose between a Sorcerer or Wizard, play an Archivist Arcanist! :smallsmile:

Jack_Simth

2016-11-06, 12:55 AM

That's true, but can you afford to spend a spell known on something like Planar Binding instead of something that you'll use daily? While it's still relevant?You don't use Planar Binding daily if you take it as a spell known? It's cheap-to-free disposable minions that aren't actually all that bad. Even basic brutes like fire elementals are pretty good at controlling the battlefield (mostly by getting in the way and soaking hits... but hitting one hurts, and they sometimes hit). A Trumpet Archon or Ghaele is a pocket cleric-14 that you can get at 12th (much harder to bind, mind), and a Lillend is a pocket bard (likewise harder to bind than basic brutes). A Wizard can prepare the perfect spell, a Sorcerer can Call the perfect outsider. It's not Gate or Shapechange, but the Planar Binding line is stupidly useful with some prep-work. Yes, a Wizard can Planar Bind too, but the opposed Charisma check mechanic favors the Sorcerer in that specific niche.

Likewise, Charm Person is relevant at level 1. Charm Monster Stays relevant for as long as the DM uses critters subject to mind-affecting stuff.

Keep in mind, though, I'm not answering the question "Is the Sorcerer better than the Wizard?" I'm answering the question "Is there any way in which a Sorcerer is better than a Wizard?" - and the answer to that is "yes, there are a couple of ways in which the Sorcerer is better than the Wizard." The Wizard is generally better overall, but there are some places where the Sorcerer does it better.

ryu

2016-11-06, 01:11 AM

You don't use Planar Binding daily if you take it as a spell known? It's cheap-to-free disposable minions that aren't actually all that bad. Even basic brutes like fire elementals are pretty good at controlling the battlefield (mostly by getting in the way and soaking hits... but hitting one hurts, and they sometimes hit). A Trumpet Archon or Ghaele is a pocket cleric-14 that you can get at 12th (much harder to bind, mind), and a Lillend is a pocket bard (likewise harder to bind than basic brutes). A Wizard can prepare the perfect spell, a Sorcerer can Call the perfect outsider. It's not Gate or Shapechange, but the Planar Binding line is stupidly useful with some prep-work. Yes, a Wizard can Planar Bind too, but the opposed Charisma check mechanic favors the Sorcerer in that specific niche.

Likewise, Charm Person is relevant at level 1. Charm Monster Stays relevant for as long as the DM uses critters subject to mind-affecting stuff.

Keep in mind, though, I'm not answering the question "Is the Sorcerer better than the Wizard?" I'm answering the question "Is there any way in which a Sorcerer is better than a Wizard?" - and the answer to that is "yes, there are a couple of ways in which the Sorcerer is better than the Wizard." The Wizard is generally better overall, but there are some places where the Sorcerer does it better.

And who, pray tell, gets planar binding at least one level sooner assuming it was one of the sorc's first picks? Also I'd argue the enchantment spells cease to be relevant pretty early when humanoids gain access to protection from evil.

Inevitability

2016-11-06, 01:47 AM

Okay, so before the skies become ashen gray and the seas turn to ooze to herald the return of the Old One...

I totally called this. :smalltongue:

Jack_Simth

2016-11-06, 01:54 AM

And who, pray tell, gets planar binding at least one level sooner assuming it was one of the sorc's first picks?
Depends entirely on the optimization level (easy example: The Greater Draconic Rite of Passage means that the Sorcerer is getting spell access at the same level as the Wizard). Even without such things, though, that specific point is only relevant at three of 20 levels (9th, 11th, 15th for Lesser Planar Binding, Planar Binding, and Greater Planar Binding, respectively ... or maybe that should be 3 of 11 levels as the question effectively goes from 9-20). I'm not greatly concerned about the 15-27% case when looking at "Is there any way in which a Sorcerer is better than a Wizard?". Sure, the wizard is better than the Sorcerer at Planar Binding in 15-27% of cases. I'm going to call that aspect 'irrelevant to my point'. In general, the Wizard is a better class. There are some niches where both classes can do it and the Sorcerer is better at it.

Also I'd argue the enchantment spells cease to be relevant pretty early when humanoids gain access to protection from evil.What, you're not going to try Charm Monster (Sor/Wiz-4) on an Elder Arrowhawk (CR 8), Glabrezou (CR 13), or Triceratops (CR 9)? There's a lot of critters for which it will work OK. Don't get me wrong: A lot of things will be effectively immune at a lot of different levels. If all you face is well-prepared casters and/or their buffed minions, sure, Enchantment isn't going to do you much good (at least, not directly offensively). That is HIGHLY campaign dependent, though, and will not apply at all tables. If you're going to use the logic of "The DM will make any spell you pick close-to-constantly useless" then your spell selection really doesn't matter, as pretty much any specific set of tricks has something that's immune, or near enough. Plus, of course, Dispel Magic should be a PC staple if suddenly every opponent is pre-buffed.

ryu

2016-11-06, 02:04 AM

Depends entirely on the optimization level (easy example: The Greater Draconic Rite of Passage means that the Sorcerer is getting spell access at the same level as the Wizard). Even without such things, though, that specific point is only relevant at three of 20 levels (9th, 11th, 15th for Lesser Planar Binding, Planar Binding, and Greater Planar Binding, respectively).
What, you're not going to try Charm Monster (Sor/Wiz-4) on an Elder Arrowhawk (CR 8), Glabrezou (CR 13), or Triceratops (CR 9)? There's a lot of critters for which it will work OK. Don't get me wrong: A lot of things will be effectively immune at a lot of different levels. If all you face is well-prepared casters and/or their buffed minions, sure, Enchantment isn't going to do you much good (at least, not directly offensively). That is HIGHLY campaign dependent, though, and will not apply at all tables. If you're going to use the logic of "The DM will make any spell you pick close-to-constantly useless" then your spell selection really doesn't matter, as pretty much any specific set of tricks has something that's immune, or near enough. Plus, of course, Dispel Magic should be a PC staple if suddenly every opponent is pre-buffed.

It aint about DMs specifically blackballing you. Having a magic item that more or less reads: "No sell an entire school of magic and some other powerful stuff besides." is just generally a good idea. For the low low cost of 1000G the majority of summon monster, magic jar, and pretty much the entirety of enchantment can't touch you. You also get some free defensive buffs against evil people as a minor benefit. In other words? They don't have it because it's good against you. They have it, because it's good.

Zanos

2016-11-06, 02:16 AM

I don't think "better at charisma checks" is really a strong point in the favor of the sorcerer, anyway. Assuming that you don't have unlimited spells known for whatever reason, the wizard actually has the advantage there in that he can individually cast all the tools for planar binding, and also selectively prepare other spells that buff his charisma check and make his target a secluded wreck. Does anything actually prevent me from making my charisma check against a devil unconscious because they have 0 charisma?

ryu

2016-11-06, 02:20 AM

Fizban

2016-11-06, 03:31 AM

It aint about DMs specifically blackballing you. Having a magic item that more or less reads: "No sell an entire school of magic and some other powerful stuff besides." is just generally a good idea. For the low low cost of 1000G the majority of summon monster, magic jar, and pretty much the entirety of enchantment can't touch you. You also get some free defensive buffs against evil people as a minor benefit. In other words? They don't have it because it's good against you. They have it, because it's good.
Ah yes, the "I'm going to assume this custom magic item exists even though that's not how custom item creation works" argument. Unless you're claiming a 1st level wand is actually continuous protection.

Pugwampy

2016-11-06, 03:49 AM

Translates to: When the the caster optimization in the group ends at "blaster" (the worst optimization)

Sometimes a player wants to shoot fireballs . There is nothing wrong with that and its better then an arrow .

If you know your DND stuff , you can make a blaster castor steal the show .
In a do what you want game there is no worst or best class or style .

Just best and worst players .

ryu

2016-11-06, 04:12 AM

Ah yes, the "I'm going to assume this custom magic item exists even though that's not how custom item creation works" argument. Unless you're claiming a 1st level wand is actually continuous protection.

You want non-custom items? Banner of law from heroes of battle costs 8000G but projects the effect to a 30 foot radius and is an official item that exists. Any other technicalities to bring?

Gruftzwerg

2016-11-06, 04:58 AM

Sometimes a player wants to shoot fireballs . There is nothing wrong with that and its better then an arrow .

If you know your DND stuff , you can make a blaster castor steal the show .
In a do what you want game there is no worst or best class or style .

Just best and worst players .

When you optimize, you assume a build that is focused on HP dmg is very limited. Because not every encounter/problem can be solved by HP dmg. And those that can be solved by HP dmg can be solved in other ways too. It's about having the right tools for any situation that might occur. Sure a blaster caster isn't relying sole on dmg spells and isn't that limited. But he is limiting his flexibility with his optimization in blasting (e.g. having more blasting spells prepared, more blasting feats oriented).
That's what I meant with worst optimization build.

Fizban

2016-11-06, 07:03 AM

You want non-custom items? Banner of law from heroes of battle costs 8000G but projects the effect to a 30 foot radius and is an official item that exists. Any other technicalities to bring?
Ah, they can learn. But now you've got an 8,000gp magic item that requires people (including the bearer) to see it to function and has a 30' effective range, a far cry from the supposed 1,000gp item you tried to claim would be everywhere (you also got the formula wrong btw, continuous 1 min/level 1st is 4,000gp). If you actually follow NPC WBL then 8,000gp is no small amount until at least 15th, and for monster treasure values it never stops being a large amount. But hey, don't let RAW stop you.

Gnaeus

2016-11-06, 07:29 AM

You don't use Planar Binding daily if you take it as a spell known? It's cheap-to-free disposable minions that aren't actually all that bad. Even basic brutes like fire elementals are pretty good at controlling the battlefield (mostly by getting in the way and soaking hits... but hitting one hurts, and they sometimes hit). A Trumpet Archon or Ghaele is a pocket cleric-14 that you can get at 12th (much harder to bind, mind), and a Lillend is a pocket bard (likewise harder to bind than basic brutes). A Wizard can prepare the perfect spell, a Sorcerer can Call the perfect outsider. It's not Gate or Shapechange, but the Planar Binding line is stupidly useful with some prep-work. Yes, a Wizard can Planar Bind too, but the opposed Charisma check mechanic favors the Sorcerer in that specific niche.

Not even slightly. You know what is way more important than your charisma for binding outsiders? Enough Knowledge Planes to know the difference between a Lillend and a Ghaele. Sorcerers don't have it as a skill, and aren't likely to have a stellar int. It's kinda an awful spell for sorcerers who aren't cheating or jumping through hoops. (Better in PF where they can max ranks easily and it is a skill for some bloodlines or easily grabbed with a trait)

Pugwampy

2016-11-06, 07:32 AM

It's about having the right tools for any situation that might occur.

Its impossible prepare for everything . There is no fun to be had nerfing your hero down to a diseased rat just so he can help a little in every and any situation and thats assuming its not a surprise . If you cannot do something hopefully one buddy in your group can .

In all my years of DND playing , 85 percent combat encounters has been solved with straight up damage . Killing things is fun. Everyone is there for fun .

Dm wants to cough up a Naga at the bottom the lake fight to prove a point thats fine . Not a fun encounter but his ego needs stroking too . If he does that every encounter he wont have players or at least annoyed players who will find other mischief and ruin a great campaign

Players should try to fit the Dm,s unique style and DM should try to give the players the right kind of encounters most of the time . Its helps if everyone communicates what they want and need from each other .

ryu

2016-11-06, 07:49 AM

Ah, they can learn. But now you've got an 8,000gp magic item that requires people (including the bearer) to see it to function and has a 30' effective range, a far cry from the supposed 1,000gp item you tried to claim would be everywhere (you also got the formula wrong btw, continuous 1 min/level 1st is 4,000gp). If you actually follow NPC WBL then 8,000gp is no small amount until at least 15th, and for monster treasure values it never stops being a large amount. But hey, don't let RAW stop you.

Learning? Silly boy I've been aware of that thing for ages. It's just I only bring it up when people complain about crafted items. Reason being that if a first level spell renders fully your entire school of magic unusable that school isn't a good choice for a sorcerer who needs to make every spell known count.

sleepyphoenixx

2016-11-06, 07:58 AM

Its impossible prepare for everything . There is no fun to be had nerfing your hero down to a diseased rat just so he can help a little in every and any situation and thats assuming its not a surprise . If you cannot do something hopefully one buddy in your group can .

In all my years of DND playing , 85 percent combat encounters has been solved with straight up damage . Killing things is fun. Everyone is there for fun .

Dm wants to cough up a Naga at the bottom the lake fight to prove a point thats fine . Not a fun encounter but his ego needs stroking too . If he does that every encounter he wont have players or at least annoyed players who will find other mischief and ruin a great campaign

Players should try to fit the Dm,s unique style and DM should try to give the players the right kind of encounters most of the time . Its helps if everyone communicates what they want and need from each other .

Straight up damage is what fighters do. And rogues. And clerics who forget they're spellcasters and DMM:Persist Divine Power to be a fighter without bonus feats. And animal companions. And summons.
Everyone does damage, and most of them can do it more than a few times per day.
Damage spells have an awful spell slot to benefit ratio unless you optimize the hell out of them. A normal Fireball won't kill anything level-appropriate even on a failed save. And anything you don't kill is just as dangerous as it was at full hp no matter if it has 100hp left or 1hp.

There's no point wasting your spell slots to do damage when you can just throw out a BFC spell, a buff/debuff or a useful summon and make it easy to mop up for the people who don't spend limited resources on it and have nothing better to do with their actions anyway.
That way you actually have spells left to prepare for surprises. Because most often the wizard is "the buddy who can do something when you can't".
Or at least he should be, because he certainly has the toolbox for it. Assuming he didn't just waste it all on damage spells.

Yes, you could optimize for blasting or play a gish, and if that's what you like don't let anyone stop you.
But that doesn't change the fact that it's not the optimal use of your resources, or that it's a role that can be covered by anyone. An arcane caster can do so many things that others can't, and most of them are more helpful to the group than a little more damage.

Learning? Silly boy I've been aware of that thing for ages. It's just I only bring it up when people complain about crafted items. Reason being that if a first level spell renders fully your entire school of magic unusable that school isn't a good choice for a sorcerer who needs to make every spell known count.
Low level NPCs can't afford permanent PfE. And the spell only lasts 1 minute/level. That's not rendering your whole school unusable, especially because it doesn't even block charm, it just suppresses it. A few minutes later your target is still charmed and will be for hours.

The reason it's not a good choice for a sorcerer is that at low levels you actually need spells that work against all enemies. Like your run-of-the-mill zombies or skeletons.
You can't afford to spend one of a handful of spells known on Charm Person and by the time you have enough spells to learn it the countermeasures are a lot more common.

ryu

2016-11-06, 08:14 AM

Straight up damage is what fighters do. And rogues. And clerics who forget they're spellcasters and DMM:Persist Divine Power to be a fighter without bonus feats. And animal companions. And summons.
Everyone does damage, and most of them can do it more than a few times per day.
Damage spells have an awful spell slot to benefit ratio unless you optimize the hell out of them. A normal Fireball won't kill anything level-appropriate even on a failed save. And anything you don't kill is just as dangerous as it was at full hp no matter if it has 100hp left or 1hp.

There's no point wasting your spell slots to do damage when you can just throw out a BFC spell, a buff/debuff or a useful summon and make it easy to mop up for the people who don't spend limited resources on it and have nothing better to do with their actions anyway.
That way you actually have spells left to prepare for surprises. Because most often the wizard is "the buddy who can do something when you can't".
Or at least he should be, because he certainly has the toolbox for it. Assuming he didn't just waste it all on damage spells.

Yes, you could optimize for blasting or play a gish, and if that's what you like don't let anyone stop you.
But that doesn't change the fact that it's not the optimal use of your resources, or that it's a role that can be covered by anyone. An arcane caster can do so many things that others can't, and most of them are more helpful to the group than a little more damage.

Low level NPCs can't afford permanent PfE. And the spell only lasts 1 minute/level. That's not rendering your whole school unusable, especially because it doesn't even block charm, it just suppresses it. A few minutes later your target is still charmed and will be for hours.

The reason it's not a good choice for a sorcerer is that at low levels you actually need spells that work against all enemies. Like your run-of-the-mill zombies or skeletons.
You can't afford to spend one of a handful of spells known on Charm Person and by the time you have enough spells to learn it the countermeasures are a lot more common.

The point I was making was that spells that will become meaningless fairly quickly are simply not good choices. If I'm to have less spells than I can count on both hands for the low levels any spell I pick is going to be either hilariously broadly applicable or immensely powerful in as long a term as possible with planning. Enchantment simply doesn't have either of these qualities because it loses value faster than color spray or sleep, has less crowd control potential, and works on a smaller subset of opponents in the case of color spray. This is before we even start haggling over how early items will come into play.

Nifft

2016-11-06, 08:23 AM

It seems like we have some pretty smart Optimists™ in this thread.

I'm going to propose a Wizard build. It's not highly optimized, but I think it can beat a Sorcerer in terms of casting spontaneously and having lots of spell-slots -- somewhat.

I'd like to hear about equivalently optimized Sorcerer builds (i.e. not that optimized) which could compete.

Here's the build:

Wizard 7 / Primal Scholar 5, with Secret of Power taken at some point during Primal Scholar.

Here's why it is good:
- Secret of Power allows you to spend an action point to recover a number of expended spell levels equal to your Primal Scholar level.
- There are 5 levels of Primal Scholar, and you took all of them, so you can spend an action point to recover up to 5 spell levels.
- Unfettered Heroism is a 5th level spell which gives you one free action point every round for 1 round/level.

You don't even need to know about Persist-o-mancy, you can just cast all day and instantly recover your spells of level 5 (and lower), including Unfettered Heroism.

As a naive Wizard (no specialization, no domain) you'll have 4 spells prepared at each spell level, plus bonus spells for high Intelligence -- so by level 12, let's assume Int 20, which means 6x level 1 spells, and 5x levels 2 through 5.

A level 12 Sorcerer has 5/5/4/3/2 spells known through spell level 5, plus one 6th level spell.

The naive Wizard has more spells readied, and can cast each spell an unbounded number of times, and can swap which spells are readied every day.

That's before the Wizard's player learns about Spontaneous Divination, and the number of spells which could be cast grow with the number of Divination spells known.

(This trick combos nicely with Legacy Champion 5.)

= = =

A Sorcerer can use this exact same trick, but it's less beneficial, since a Sorcerer is not going to get more spells available from increases in Charisma, nor from items like a Ring of Wizardry.

However, a Sorcerer could spend spell-slots on other things, which a Wizard could not -- stuff like Draconic Breath, or healing herself via a Divine Companion.

But I can't see any way for a Sorcerer to do something substantially better -- neither better with this trick, nor better at the same level of optimization (which is low).

Can someone show me what a naive sorcerer could do?

Chulehdoido

2016-11-06, 08:54 AM

Action point is variant adventure rule. And I honestly do not see any advantage of this build.

Nifft

2016-11-06, 09:01 AM

Action point is variant adventure rule. And I honestly do not see any advantage of this build.

It's core in Eberron, which is the setting whence the PrC and the spell in question came.

Eberron action points are more limited than the UA action points, and they are not a variant.

The advantage to the build is that the character can cast all day and get all his 5th-and-lower slots back. So it's like playing a Warlock, except with actual spells instead of a gimpy 6d6 ray.

I hope that's sufficiently clear.

AmericanCheese

2016-11-06, 09:10 AM

Are threads like this how pantheons die? Cause this is pretty stimulating discussion.

sleepyphoenixx

2016-11-06, 09:11 AM

Wizard 7 / Primal Scholar 5, with Secret of Power taken at some point during Primal Scholar.
There's no need to spend 5 levels on Primal Scholar.
You can do the same thing by preparing Sanctum Repeat Mordenkainen's Lucubration. Once you cast it you can recover any spell 5th or below, and the round after that you recover your Lucubration because it counts as a 5th level spell too thanks to Sanctum Spell.
Unlimited 5th level or below spells (or 6th if you prepare them with Sanctum too) for the cost of two feats.

Another thing limited to wizards is Simulacra capable of Circle Magic pre-epic - specifically leading their own circles. The benefits of having a bunch of copies running around with spell DCs of 30 + Int at CL 40 should need no explanation. Not that it'll be allowed in most games, but it's there.
You can then also have your copies dump 20th level spells into your magic circles to get up to 180 spell levels to play with in an hour instead of being limited to maybe 45 or less.

Nifft

2016-11-06, 09:34 AM

There's no need to spend 5 levels on Primal Scholar.
You can do the same thing by preparing Sanctum Repeat Mordenkainen's Lucubration. Once you cast it you can recover any spell 5th or below, and the round after that you recover your Lucubration because it counts as a 5th level spell too thanks to Sanctum Spell.
Unlimited 5th level or below spells (or 6th if you prepare them with Sanctum too) for the cost of two feats. 1/ Now scale that up to 9th level spells, like I did with Legacy Champion.

2/ Sanctum Spell is contentious, and relies on your DM ruling some unclear bits in your favor. Primal Scholar works both RAW and RAI.

3/ Repeat Spell costs +3 levels, so your spell can't recover itself... unless you mean to say that you think a Lucubration could recover any Metamagic'd spell if the original spell is level 5 or below? I hope you're saying something else, because that would be beyond contentious and deep into absurd.

Another thing limited to wizards is Simulacra capable of Circle Magic pre-epic - specifically leading their own circles. The benefits of having a bunch of copies running around with spell DCs of 30 + Int at CL 40 should need no explanation. Not that it'll be allowed in most games, but it's there.
You can then also have your copies dump 20th level spells into your magic circles to get up to 180 spell levels to play with in an hour instead of being limited to maybe 45 or less.

That part looks accurate, but I think that's higher OP than what I'm asking for.

Fizban

2016-11-06, 09:44 AM

The point I was making was that spells that will become meaningless fairly quickly are simply not good choices. If I'm to have less spells than I can count on both hands for the low levels any spell I pick is going to be either hilariously broadly applicable or immensely powerful in as long a term as possible with planning. Enchantment simply doesn't have either of these qualities because it loses value faster than color spray or sleep, has less crowd control potential, and works on a smaller subset of opponents in the case of color spray. This is before we even start haggling over how early items will come into play.
You've moved your goalposts. Jack_Smith brought up Charm Monster as a method of ignoring any pretense of free will or payment when Planar Binding creatures. At which point you said Charm Monster wasn't worth taking for a sorcerer because of custom magic items without oversight or even following the formula, and/or the assumption that every creature in the world can cast Protection from Evil. Now you're talking about "low levels,' when Charm Monster is a 4th level spell, only low if you divine the game into two levels (when there are clearly a minimum of three spheres of play, if not four).

Your point is objectively wrong. The only thing better than killing your foe instantly is mind controlling them into being your ally, and short of Limited Wish/Shadow X there is no spell effect more versatile than mind controlling whoever can do what you need done. Charm Monster works on the majority of creatures, who must spend a significant amount of their gear in order to obtain anything close to a significant defense against it, if they are even capable of doing so. It is one of the spells a sorcerer can take without any fear of it being a bad choice. It does not become useless at any point, let alone quickly, any more than any other spell does.

Jack_Simth

2016-11-06, 10:38 AM

Ah yes, the "I'm going to assume this custom magic item exists even though that's not how custom item creation works" argument. Unless you're claiming a 1st level wand is actually continuous protection.Even at that, the math is off unless Ryu is factoring in a bunch of customized limitations. It'd be 750 gp as a wand activated every minute (and would last less than an hour, total), 1800 as a command-word that you activate every minute, 2000 as a "use activated" (what use makes sense?), or 4,000 as continuous (duration). All of those still assume caster level 1, which means 'easy to dispel'. Sure, there's an 8k item that'll do it too... but regardless, the numbers smell funny, and there's a LOT of things that don't get equipment of that nature.
Not even slightly. You know what is way more important than your charisma for binding outsiders? Enough Knowledge Planes to know the difference between a Lillend and a Ghaele. Sorcerers don't have it as a skill, and aren't likely to have a stellar int. It's kinda an awful spell for sorcerers who aren't cheating or jumping through hoops. (Better in PF where they can max ranks easily and it is a skill for some bloodlines or easily grabbed with a trait)As with a lot of things, it depends on the table and the optimization level. There's a number of ways to get Kn(All) on a class list, or Kn(The Planes) specifically. PrC dips, ACF's, feats... and at that, not all DM's actually require knowledge checks. It's a valid point, but it'll only sometimes apply. As the question is not "is there something the Sorcerer is strictly better at than a Wizard", but "Is there any way in which a Sorcerer is better than a Wizard?" The answer to the OP is still yes. The Wizard is generally better overall, but there will be some things the Sorcerer can in fact do better.
I don't think "better at charisma checks" is really a strong point in the favor of the sorcerer, anyway. Assuming that you don't have unlimited spells known for whatever reason, the wizard actually has the advantage there in that he can individually cast all the tools for planar binding, and also selectively prepare other spells that buff his charisma check and make his target a secluded wreck. Does anything actually prevent me from making my charisma check against a devil unconscious because they have 0 charisma?1) It explicitly requires negotiation, so they have to be conscious.
2) Ignoring that (Cha 1 is the same modifier as Cha 0) It's unclear whether or not casting a spell across the planar binding diagram counts as disturbing it. Depending on the DM, this route may release the beast to try to kill you or flee as soon as you start zapping.
3) Ignoring those, you're putting in a lot more resources per binding, and can do it significantly less often as a direct result.
4) Ignoring that, it would still apply for the Charm line.
You've moved your goalposts. Jack_Smith brought up Charm Monster as a method of ignoring any pretense of free will or payment when Planar Binding creatures. Close! Planar Binding's Charimsa check works completely independently of the Charm line's charisma check to convince them to do something they wouldn't do. The two were intended as separate things.

Otherwise seems quite correct.

Gnaeus

2016-11-06, 11:10 AM

There's a number of ways to get Kn(All) on a class list, or Kn(The Planes) specifically. PrC dips, ACF's, feats... and at that, not all DM's actually require knowledge checks. It's a valid point, but it'll only sometimes apply. As the question is not "is there something the Sorcerer is strictly better at than a Wizard", but "Is there any way in which a Sorcerer is better than a Wizard?"

If it requires a feat for a skill, it's pretty strictly worse than a wizard.

If it requires a PRC, it's no longer a wizard vs a sorcerer.

If it requires ignoring rules, then you are correct. The answer is then yes. Because a sorcerer in a non RAW game in which he knows 3x as many spells and wizards only get the basic 2 spells per level is obviously better in most cases. Otherwise not so much.

ryu

2016-11-06, 05:05 PM

Even at that, the math is off unless Ryu is factoring in a bunch of customized limitations. It'd be 750 gp as a wand activated every minute (and would last less than an hour, total), 1800 as a command-word that you activate every minute, 2000 as a "use activated" (what use makes sense?), or 4,000 as continuous (duration). All of those still assume caster level 1, which means 'easy to dispel'. Sure, there's an 8k item that'll do it too... but regardless, the numbers smell funny, and there's a LOT of things that don't get equipment of that nature.As with a lot of things, it depends on the table and the optimization level. There's a number of ways to get Kn(All) on a class list, or Kn(The Planes) specifically. PrC dips, ACF's, feats... and at that, not all DM's actually require knowledge checks. It's a valid point, but it'll only sometimes apply. As the question is not "is there something the Sorcerer is strictly better at than a Wizard", but "Is there any way in which a Sorcerer is better than a Wizard?" The answer to the OP is still yes. The Wizard is generally better overall, but there will be some things the Sorcerer can in fact do better.1) It explicitly requires negotiation, so they have to be conscious.
2) Ignoring that (Cha 1 is the same modifier as Cha 0) It's unclear whether or not casting a spell across the planar binding diagram counts as disturbing it. Depending on the DM, this route may release the beast to try to kill you or flee as soon as you start zapping.
3) Ignoring those, you're putting in a lot more resources per binding, and can do it significantly less often as a direct result.
4) Ignoring that, it would still apply for the Charm line.Close! Planar Binding's Charimsa check works completely independently of the Charm line's charisma check to convince them to do something they wouldn't do. The two were intended as separate things.

Otherwise seems quite correct.

Cost mitigating feats, on an artificer cohort for optimal efficiency in crafting. There is no better class to merchant with than the ultimate magic item manipulator.

Further yes fourth level spells are low level. That's level seven if you're one of the better classes, and level eight or so if you're behind. Mid levels don't start until ten, and high levels not until fifteen.

Fizban

2016-11-07, 05:31 AM

Cost mitigating feats, on an artificer cohort for optimal efficiency in crafting. There is no better class to merchant with than the ultimate magic item manipulator.
So you're saying that not only are all NPCs an monsters equipped with custom Protection from Evil items, but they're also all specialized in reducing the cost. Right.

Further yes fourth level spells are low level. That's level seven if you're one of the better classes, and level eight or so if you're behind. Mid levels don't start until ten, and high levels not until fifteen.
Spoken as someone who never plays the game below 10th, what a surprise. Wanna tell all the E6'ers how there's no difference between 6th and 10th and it's all "low level?"

ryu

2016-11-07, 06:17 AM

So you're saying that not only are all NPCs an monsters equipped with custom Protection from Evil items, but they're also all specialized in reducing the cost. Right.

Spoken as someone who never plays the game below 10th, what a surprise. Wanna tell all the E6'ers how there's no difference between 6th and 10th and it's all "low level?"

I play the entire gamut from 1-20. For the record the ranges are 1-5: Fresh Meat, 6-10: No longer a mook, 11-15: Kingdom class hero/villain, 16-20: World stage player and 21 and beyond: A deity born. Fresh meat is characterized by being only slightly less common than town guards. No longer a mook is characterized by people in your local area knowing your name without having met you. Kingdom class where you start being relevant to actual rulers. As a world stage player is actually famous world wide.

Now you can play something like e6 if you feel it necessary for balance. Fact is that with standard assumptions of level distribution by population that's no longer main character territory.

Chulehdoido

2016-11-07, 07:57 AM

It's core in Eberron, which is the setting whence the PrC and the spell in question came.

Eberron action points are more limited than the UA action points, and they are not a variant.

The advantage to the build is that the character can cast all day and get all his 5th-and-lower slots back. So it's like playing a Warlock, except with actual spells instead of a gimpy 6d6 ray.

I hope that's sufficiently clear.

The advantage to the your Wizard build is that the character can cast all day and get all his 5th-and-slots lower back is not surprising.
Honestly, there is no real advantages.
I prefer the Sorcerer for it.
Undead Battery feat + Twin Repeat Maximize Empower Absorvition(48 spells slots per casting) + Summons or minions (Absorving spell-like abilities/Spells).
Without any PrC, Sorcerer can have unlimited spells any level spell, not only they can persist every spell.
Sorcerer can free miracles by Divine Sorcery feat. = Great Versatility

The best part is... Sorcerers dont need be Optimized and dont need acess overpowered PrC, Just a nice Spell selections and Feats

However, I do not like infinite loops or limitless things.

Is there any way in which a Wizard is better than a Sorcerer?

Fizban

2016-11-07, 12:22 PM

For the record the ranges are
So you do recognize that 4th level spells are not low-level, and switch to flashy titles in order to hide the fact that naming the second of four tiers "low" would be laughable.

1-5: Fresh Meat, Fresh meat is characterized by being only slightly less common than town guards.
Actually 1st level or higher PC classed NPCs are significantly more common than town guards, while 5th level classed NPCs are much more than just "slightly" rarer.

Fact is that with standard assumptions of level distribution by population that's no longer main character territory.
I think you need to recheck your numbers. As you didn't address the other absurdity, I will assume you realized it was also indefensible.

ryu

2016-11-07, 05:49 PM

So you do recognize that 4th level spells are not low-level, and switch to flashy titles in order to hide the fact that naming the second of four tiers "low" would be laughable.

Actually 1st level or higher PC classed NPCs are significantly more common than town guards, while 5th level classed NPCs are much more than just "slightly" rarer.

I think you need to recheck your numbers. As you didn't address the other absurdity, I will assume you realized it was also indefensible.

At what point did local people knowing your name without having met you imply that isn't low? You're far from uncommon. Any given town has dozens of people like you across a wide variety of classes, and a fairly large number of people who dwarf you in power and importance. Some of the bigger places probably won't even recognize you as unusual.

Luccan

2016-11-08, 08:46 PM

Wow, I did not expect this thread to pick up this much. Thanks to everybody who responded and anyone who continues to respond and sorry if I brought up a dangerous topic for this forum.

ryu

2016-11-08, 08:59 PM

Wow, I did not expect this thread to pick up this much. Thanks to everybody who responded and anyone who continues to respond and sorry if I brought up a dangerous topic for this forum.

Oh this is dangerous. There used to be a weekly rotation. Monkday, TWFsday, wizarday, theurgday, fighterday, sorcerday, and swordsageday. All days where people would express opinions wildly divergent from consensus. This thread is actually pretty tame. You don't even have ten pages after almost as many days.

Chulehdoido

2016-11-08, 09:27 PM

It can be dangerous.... he's returned!!!
http://www.updateordie.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/vader12.jpg

ryu

2016-11-08, 09:39 PM

Chulehdoido

2016-11-08, 09:54 PM

Oh don't mind lord draco. He started by mixing a really rather ineffective grasp of the English language and a rules illegal sorcerer build to seek as much attention as possible. He got banned. He came back. He got banned again. But he came back again. Then he got banned yet again. Now he's back again. What does pattern recognition tell you?

Lord Drako is very nooob :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbi ggrin: !! But, your build is completely valid!

We cant beat him !! Invalid!!

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/LqSg9yVfzV0/maxresdefault.jpg

Inevitability

2016-11-09, 01:39 AM

Oh don't mind lord draco. He started by mixing a really rather ineffective grasp of the English language and a rules illegal sorcerer build to seek as much attention as possible. He got banned. He came back. He got banned again. But he came back again. Then he got banned yet again. Now he's back again. What does pattern recognition tell you?

You missed one return and ban. Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20560379&postcount=6) its glorious one post.

Erit

2016-11-09, 01:56 AM

You missed one return and ban. Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20560379&postcount=6) its glorious one post.

Do I even want to know why he keeps getting banned? And why he keeps coming back?

ryu

2016-11-09, 02:05 AM

You missed one return and ban. Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20560379&postcount=6) its glorious one post.

I'm pretty sure you just made my point stronger.

He keeps getting banned because he indulged in a massive spammy as hell thread he populated with pictures of basically naked men, started calling all the people telling him how wrong he was in the supposed point of the thread insane, and thus essentially performed a textbook example of a massive troll thread.

He keeps coming back because he demands attention and validation.

He keeps getting banned because he doesn't know how to act different enough that people can't tell it's him. Coming back is against the rules after all.

Chulehdoido

2016-11-09, 07:17 AM

I'm pretty sure you just made my point stronger.

He keeps getting banned because he indulged in a massive spammy as hell thread he populated with pictures of basically naked men, started calling all the people telling him how wrong he was in the supposed point of the thread insane, and thus essentially performed a textbook example of a massive troll thread.

He keeps coming back because he demands attention and validation.

He keeps getting banned because he doesn't know how to act different enough that people can't tell it's him. Coming back is against the rules after all.
Wrong. He was banned 3 years ago because he offended a tholl member, even after he apologized, asked for a chance to return, did not offend anyone, was not spamming, no abusive pictures and his arguments are solid. Your build is extremely powerful and valid.
But he's a dangerous villain !! A lich necromancer will always return! One thing no one can deny, his arguments are always solid.

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy165/noobiemovies/darthvaderandlordvoldemort.jpg
https://media4.giphy.com/media/ZyA2bpUQ4gVqg/200_s.gif

Inevitability

2016-11-09, 08:56 AM

Wrong. He was banned 3 years ago because he offended a tholl member, even after he apologized, asked for a chance to return

I do not recall this happening.

did not offend anyone, was not spamming, no abusive pictures

I can provide a few threads' worth of material that says otherwise.

and his arguments are solid

I believe those arguments amounted to: 'your offense has no defense' and 'sorcerer is combat master spy diplomat wizard is fool'.

But he's a dangerous villain !! A lich necromancer will always return!

Not sure how to respond to this.

One thing no one can deny, his arguments are always solid.

In the same way talc is solid?

FocusWolf413

2016-11-09, 09:06 AM

Haven't you heard of the Sorceror King?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414050-Who-is-better-Optimized-Wizard-or-Optimized-Sorcerer-Yes-Sorcerer-is-a-GOD

Chulehdoido

2016-11-09, 09:21 AM

Lord of Sevenfold Shadow was your the last build posted.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497759-Lord-of-the-Sevenfold-Shadows(COUNTERING-FAMOUS-OPTIMIZED-CHARACTERS-BUILDS)

One Step Two:Lord Drako build is invalid!! you cant qualify to Dweomekeeper, you cant cast divine spells!!!! omg!!
Lord Drako: No, Divine Sorcerer(Domain Acess, Complete Champion) cast domain spells and cast as cleric, so it's divine!
Domain Access
Your depth of belief allows you to channel divine power the
way a cleric does. By doing so, you gain access to a single
cleric domain.

One Step Two: Acess to divine power as cleric does? It still arcane!
Lord Drako: I disagree, its divine!
One Step Two: NO! your build is invalid!!!
Lord Drako: OK, Imbue with spell ability spell = Divine Casting acess
One Step Two: ITS INFINITE LOOP!!!! INVALID

LOL :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbi ggrin::smallbiggrin:

HIVE build defenders.(Theorical Build Vs Practical Build)

The funniest thing was their arguments!

Q) HIVE BUILD argument, I have infinite contingency spell.
A) No matter, Mystic Shield blocks any contingency spells.

Q)Celerity + Time Stop = Infinite Mage Disjunction
A) this does not work, with Craft contingent spell + Twin Greater Arcane Fusion I have 4 standard action + 2 full round. I'll always strike first. Lord of Shadow have +140 initiative
Time Stop Fail, Heighten Temporal Repair spell(dragon 350) = Time Stop Fail

Q)I completely ignored everything you said, I'll attack first !! Mage Disjunction, you can not defend
A) Tower Shield block your mage disjuntion.
Mage Disjunction counterspell: Battemagic perception spell + Reactive counterpell + Srinshee's Spell Shift = Now i control your spell against u.

Q) HIVE can counterspell your Greater Arcane Fusion!!
A) No, its supernatural.

Q) Evil Weather / Mage Disjunction / Supernatural Gust wind / Enigma Aura / Antimagic Field, swarms cant teleport and time stop is countered! How will HIVE defend against it ??
A) Your build is illegal!

Q) What happens if I use Dark Speech feat to create the same HIVEMIND.
A) Your build is illegal!

He's arguments, but it looks like there was no defense. So the only alternative was to cry.

Funny, I did not see any wizard capable of dueling against this Evil Sorcerer

Inevitability

2016-11-09, 10:51 AM

And so the cycle begins once again.

Haven't you heard of the Sorceror King?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414050-Who-is-better-Optimized-Wizard-or-Optimized-Sorcerer-Yes-Sorcerer-is-a-GOD

Oh, I have. I was there, watching in horror as reality as I knew it collapsed around that contorted pantomime of discourse. :smalleek:

Chulehdoido

2016-11-09, 10:53 AM

Lord of Sevenfold Shadow >>> Abyss >>> Sorcerer king

ryu

2016-11-09, 11:00 AM

And so the cycle begins once again.

Oh, I have. I was there, watching in horror as reality as I knew it collapsed around that contorted pantomime of discourse. :smalleek:

At this point I think it has earned the right to be capitalized to The Cycle. Don't you agree? Keep in mind The Cycle isn't merely limited to this string of examples. I use it to describe every natural disaster in thread form that ends in someone getting banned.

umbergod

2016-11-09, 08:24 PM

Hes a trainwreck thats on an infinite timeloop ;)

Echch

2016-11-10, 11:35 AM

ryu

2016-11-10, 11:41 AM

Actually, now that I think about it... I guess a point where the Sorcerer is superior is that it's easier to play.
While a Wizard is supposed to spent a good part of his WBL on spells, a Sorcerer has a limited amount of it, and while a Wizard must use Divination or Uncanny Forethought (or the enemies must be unorganized enough to give him 15 minutes in the middle of whatever), a Sorcerer can just use spells spontaneously, even if he didn't pick a vital feat or tried to gather information on the enemy.

The inherent problem with this is that if you don't have experience in the system you have to deal with the very real chance that you pick ineffective spells. You can screw up a sorcerer badly enough that they need either retraining or a bunch of free knowstones. On the opposite end of the spectrum you can have someone with high system mastery go out of their way to select awful spells at every level and I can still make the result superior to most sorcerers assuming I still have WBL.

Chulehdoido

2016-11-10, 11:52 AM

ShurikVch

2016-11-10, 12:02 PM

Bad Wolf

2016-11-10, 12:12 PM

Ah, good times, good times.

Curious how this thread always resurrects itself. At level 20 when you guys can shapechange into Zodars, class differences are kinda fuzzy.

Chulehdoido

2016-11-10, 12:24 PM

Ah, good times, good times.

Curious how this thread always resurrects itself. At level 20 when you guys can shapechange into Zodars, class differences are kinda fuzzy.
:elan:Once per year, a Zodar can alter the reality as if it had just cast a Wish spell as a sorcerer of the same level as its Hit Dice.

Even in this way, sorcerer is better. Supernatural Wish DC is charisma based.
Sorcerer Shapechange>Wizard Shapechange. Almost Every form is charisma based.
:elan:

Oh, Shapechange physical stats is bad??? No problem! Persisted Strengh of the true form(Sorcerer Only)

ryu

2016-11-10, 12:28 PM

But what if WBL is limited?

For example: members of Revolutionary League (Planescape faction) should donate 90% of WBL

Or how about the "shipwreck" scenario: Wizards's spellbook is sopping mess (if there at all); but Sorcerer is no worse than usually

Extradimensional storage is both cheap and water proof, or just go eidetic. Further if WBL is 10% for both parties in addition to the above scenario the wizard still wins, because then it comes down to who can by the non-awful spells in greater numbers.

Bad Wolf

2016-11-10, 12:36 PM

:elan:Once per year, a Zodar can alter the reality as if it had just cast a Wish spell as a sorcerer of the same level as its Hit Dice.

Even in this way, sorcerer is better. Supernatural Wish DC is charisma based.
Sorcerer Shapechange>Wizard Shapechange. Almost Every form is charisma based.
:elan:

Oh, Shapechange physical stats is bad??? No problem! Persisted Strengh of the true form(Sorcerer Only)

Okay how about we have a friendly competition? You make a build, I make a build (let's say level 15), submit them to a neutral judge to make sure they're legal, and then we battle it out PbP.

Lorddenorstrus

2016-11-10, 12:43 PM

Cosi

2016-11-10, 12:43 PM

The inherent problem with this is that if you don't have experience in the system you have to deal with the very real chance that you pick ineffective spells. You can screw up a sorcerer badly enough that they need either retraining or a bunch of free knowstones. On the opposite end of the spectrum you can have someone with high system mastery go out of their way to select awful spells at every level and I can still make the result superior to most sorcerers assuming I still have WBL.

I think you're talking past his point. He's arguing that a Sorcerer is easier to play than the Wizard, which it almost certainly is. As a Sorcerer, you don't ever have to worry about preparing spells, or managing those prepared spells. You just have your pile of spells and cast them. Is it more powerful than the Wizard? No. Is it simpler than the Wizard? Yes. That's the primary advantage of the Sorcerer. It's much simpler to play.

Ah, good times, good times.

Curious how this thread always resurrects itself. At level 20 when you guys can shapechange into Zodars, class differences are kinda fuzzy.

Yeah, if you're playing by strict RAW with all options open class doesn't matter because there are multiple tricks to get any power you want (Epic Spellcasting's Life Seed, SLA wish, Manipulate Form, fusion + astral seed) and the only time your class matters when pulling them off is starting the loop.

If you play at some lower level of TO, it basically comes down to who gets closer to infinity or who spends more time writing up their character. If the Wizard's player writes down twelve contingencies, but the Sorcerer's player only writes down eleven, does that really prove the Wizard is better?

If you play in PO, the answer is the same as it was on the first page of this thread. The Wizard is generally better, but there are some niches the Sorcerer can exploit more easily (arcane spellsurge, CHA synergy, arcane fusion).

This thread did not need to be six pages, even discounting trolling.

Chulehdoido

2016-11-10, 12:47 PM

Okay how about we have a friendly competition? You make a build, I make a build (let's say level 15), submit them to a neutral judge to make sure they're legal, and then we battle it out PbP.

I'm grateful, but I do not have time for this.

Yeah, if you're playing by strict RAW with all options open class doesn't matter because there are multiple tricks to get any power you want (Epic Spellcasting's Life Seed, SLA wish, Manipulate Form, fusion + astral seed) and the only time your class matters when pulling them off is starting the loop.

If you play at some lower level of TO, it basically comes down to who gets closer to infinity or who spends more time writing up their character. If the Wizard's player writes down twelve contingencies, but the Sorcerer's player only writes down eleven, does that really prove the Wizard is better?

If you play in PO, the answer is the same as it was on the first page of this thread. The Wizard is generally better, but there are some niches the Sorcerer can exploit more easily (arcane spellsurge, CHA synergy, arcane fusion).

TO tricks and infinite loops is always boring. =)

Bad Wolf

2016-11-10, 12:52 PM

I'm grateful, but I do not have time for this.

Alas, how inconvenient.

ShurikVch

2016-11-10, 01:20 PM

Extradimensional storage is both cheap and water proofCheap? At which level?
or just go eidetic.Not just it's a variant rule from the Dragon magazine
It may be worse than conventional spellbook - necessarily drugs may be not so freely available wherever you crushed
I, personally, suggesting tattoo spellbook

Further if WBL is 10% for both parties in addition to the above scenario the wizard still wins, because then it comes down to who can by the non-awful spells in greater numbers.How it's even works? :smallconfused: Sorcerer got all the spells for free...

ryu

2016-11-10, 01:40 PM

Cheap? At which level?Not just it's a variant rule from the Dragon magazine
It may be worse than conventional spellbook - necessarily drugs may be not so freely available wherever you crushed
I, personally, suggesting tattoo spellbook

How it's even works? :smallconfused: Sorcerer got all the spells for free...

The listed scenario was both parties getting non-useful spells at level up. Even with low WBL you can buy more spells that actually do things than the sorc can because you don't need knowstones.

Further eidetic ONLY requires the incense to learn new spells in the equivalent of scribing. You still get level up spells. Outside of that it's literally just making it literally impossible to target your ''spellbook.''

As for how cheap the bag of holding is that depends on whether you're making it or buying it, but at 2500 gold I think we can all agree that's pretty piddly at all but the lowest of levels.

Alternatively enveloping pit if we want more space and can up the spending by about half.

Chulehdoido

2016-11-11, 07:02 AM

Alas, how inconvenient.
I can create a sorcerer level 14, 10 and you tell me if it is possible to be defeated by a wizard.
Without any competition. OK?

Nifft

2016-11-11, 07:06 AM

I can create a sorcerer level 14, 10 or 5 and you tell me if it is possible to be defeated by a wizard.
Without any competition. OK?

I like learning Sorcerer tricks.

Please do.

DarkJimWizzard

2016-11-11, 07:19 AM

the sorcerer is better as a low lvl because they have a greater ability to cast the same spell multiple times and the wizard need to prepare spells.

but in time the wizard will buy scolls and have more known spell and he will Scribe Scroll the known spell back to more scrolls and have unlimited spells per day but it is costly.

so the sorcerer will spend the money on magic items instead.

but both may take feat to become like the other. wizard my take spell mastery and sorcerer may take scribe scroll. so same, same.

the wizard may cast more from a special school of magic but restricted to others. therefore sorcerer is easier.

wizards gain higher spell lvl and unlimited known spells but sorcerer may cast more spells of what he knows.

ryu

2016-11-11, 07:55 AM

Based on the fact that both accounts were created this month and are both new chances are relatively high he just switched again. It lines up especially well with the new one apparently planning to take up what was asked of the old one.

Inevitability

2016-11-11, 09:23 AM

ryu

2016-11-11, 10:13 AM

Are you referring to DarkJim?

Yep. It seems likely.

Inevitability

2016-11-11, 10:33 AM

Yep. It seems likely.

I'm not so sure. Chulehsomething was last active at 03:50 PM; DarkJim at 02:02 PM. If the latter should be replacing the former, that's somewhat odd.

Also, Chul's other grammar and spelling errors aside, he's using capital letters right. DarkJim has in his two posts failed to start any sentence with a capital, except when directly quoting from a book.

ryu

2016-11-11, 10:43 AM

I'm not so sure. Chulehsomething was last active at 03:50 PM; DarkJim at 02:02 PM. If the latter should be replacing the former, that's somewhat odd.

Also, Chul's other grammar and spelling errors aside, he's using capital letters right. DarkJim has in his two posts failed to start any sentence with a capital, except when directly quoting from a book.

I'm not saying certain. I'm saying likely. A tendency to switch when banned and a tendency to deny links to old identity has been shown. In absence of the ability to accuratly replicate the proper grammar to hide a replacement the most likely thing to work is to add more errors. The less charitable explanation for that is that he didn't specifically think of it and made a new mistake in stress. I'm not saying I have a perfectly airtight case. I'm just saying this is actually pretty impressive to be a coincidence. Not impossible, but impressive.

Segev

2016-11-11, 11:12 AM

"A tendency to deny links to prior identity" would be a requirement in any effort to return without being banned again, since admitting to prior identity would be evidence towards a bannable offense.

That said, the most versatile caster I ever played was a sorcerer at his core, though he had a lot of Incantatar levels. Being epic was important; he used a custom magic item (I think it used wish as its core source spell) that was a tome which allowed him to use it in lieu of having requisite spells when crafting magic items, and he had the epic feat Master Staff.

So he would create a staff which using any of its spells drained all 50 charges, and load it up with spells he wanted. Master Staff let him cast from his spell slots instead of the staff's charges while using the staff's spells. He had quite the repertoire of spells in that staff. Just had to be careful never to actually expend any of its charges. (I think he might've had one spell in it that used 1 charge per casting, and had deliberately expended one of its charges so it couldn't have the 50-charge spells activated at all without his Master Staff feat, but I don't recall if I actually implemented that or only thought about it.)

ryu

2016-11-11, 11:18 AM

The fact that a step is NECESSARY doesn't necessarily mean it's a given. Case in point did you see the first time he returned?

Inevitability

2016-11-11, 11:24 AM

The fact that a step is NECESSARY doesn't necessarily mean it's a given. Case in point did you see the first time he returned?

I did. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20529171&postcount=13)

He started figuring out admitting return meant getting banned from Ragevillain on, though.

ryu

2016-11-11, 11:30 AM

I did. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20529171&postcount=13)

He started figuring out admitting return meant getting banned from Ragevillain on, though.

Shakily... I mean you saw as well as I did the return introduction to this thread with the dark vader pic and the open admission of return. Couldn't have made it more obvious with a neon sign.

Chulehdoido

2016-11-11, 11:55 AM

Yes! Dart Vader returned!! Lord Valdemort too...
It can be dangerous!!
+10 charisma item!!
http://i.imgur.com/BkooSU8.png

http://www.cambiacartas.com/img/cards/YuGiOh/dream_cards/big/65294.20070921-223415.jpg

Erit

2016-11-11, 03:18 PM

Seriously, this is getting sillier than the reactions to the US elections. Need it continue? Because if so I'll have to go get more popcorn.

Bad Wolf

2016-11-12, 03:05 AM

I can create a sorcerer level 14, 10 and you tell me if it is possible to be defeated by a wizard.
Without any competition. OK?

Sure. Go ahead.

Blackhawk748

2016-11-12, 03:13 AM

Ya, the pics confirm it. The Elder Evil is back. Now where did i put my C4?

Inevitability

2016-11-12, 04:11 AM

Ya, the pics confirm it. The Elder Evil is back. Now where did i put my C4?

Try crashing a boat into it, it's worked before.

Drezius

2016-11-28, 10:55 PM

Ya, the pics confirm it. The Elder Evil is back. Now where did i put my C4?
The nick too. "Crazy stinky feet" in portuguese. Yeah, he is back.

Inevitability

2016-11-29, 01:47 AM

The nick too. "Crazy stinky feet" in portuguese. Yeah, he is back.

Seriously? I must say I liked his old naming schemes better.

Segev

2016-11-29, 10:40 AM

Seriously? I must say I liked his old naming schemes better.

There was a pattern? My pattern-recognition wetware seems to be failing me.

Inevitability

2016-11-29, 10:44 AM

There was a pattern? My pattern-recognition wetware seems to be failing me.

Well, it boiled down to one of two: either a pair of (pseudo-) English words mashed together (LordDrako, ragevillain) or a single D&D term (vampire, ice-assassin). He's never done something in Portuguese before.

Mordaedil

2016-11-30, 08:49 AM

Optimization always struck me as one of those things that is a lot of fun to do as theorycrafting away from the table, while when you sit at a table with friends and family you sit back and take a more relaxed approach to building.

I bring this up, because the same arguments seem to crop up regardless what style of game you actually play and the sorcerer seems like such an oddity in D&D. The warlock seems to just be everything the designers intended to have the sorcerer be, thematically.

When it comes to optimality, it's a straight-up toss-up between the two classes, where the wizard has longer traditions (at the time anyway) and a skill point build-up and seemingly more classes were made to benefit them, while the sorcerer shares a lot of the same classes, having a handful unique ones that are sometimes just straight up bad picks. (Dragon disciple, really?)

And because they share so many spells, tricks and so on it really just comes down to speed, which is where the wizard wins out optimally, just because he gets the higher spell level 1 level earlier.

And that honestly makes the biggest difference here.