Psion vs Erudite Question

[kalos72]

So do I have this straight, the two MAJOR areas they differ are:

1. Psions can use any known power, any amount of times per day for as long as he has power points vs Erudites are limited to a certain number of times they can use a power per level regardless of power points

2. Psions are limited in the total number of powers they can learn/known vs Erudite can learn any power


Is that correct?

[Troacctid]

1. Psions can use any known power, any amount of times per day for as long as he has power points vs Erudites are limited to a certain number of times they can use a power per level regardless of power points
No, the limit is on the number of unique powers they can manifest in one day, not on the number of times they can manifest any single power. For example, a 1st level erudite might know five powers: far hand, energy ray, force screen, and mind thrust. During her first encounter of the day, she chooses to manifest an energy ray. That locks in her unique power for today, an she can no longer manifest any of her other four powers until tomorrow.


2. Psions are limited in the total number of powers they can learn/known vs Erudite can learn any power
Close. Psions theoretically have no limit on the number of powers they can learn through, say, the Expanded Knowledge feat, for example. But they will only ever learn a certain number of powers from their class. Erudites can learn most powers, but they are still limited to the psion/wilder list and the six disciplines; a power like expansion would be ineligible, as it only appears on the psychic warrior list.

[sleepyphoenixx]

So do I have this straight, the two MAJOR areas they differ are:

1. Psions can use any known power, any amount of times per day for as long as he has power points vs Erudites are limited to a certain number of times they can use a power per level regardless of power points

2. Psions are limited in the total number of powers they can learn/known vs Erudite can learn any power


Is that correct?

Not quite.
Psions can use any power they know as long as they have pp. Erudites can use a specific number of unique powers per level per day. Once they've reached that limit they can't use a new one, but they can still use those they've manifested earlier again (as long as they have pp).

Psions learn a fixed number of powers at level up. After that they can only learn new powers with the Expanded Knowledge feat or Psychic Chirurgy. Psions also choose a discipline.

Erudites also learn a fixed amount of powers at level up. They can also learn additional powers from power stones or other psions, as long as they're on the psion/wilder list.
Erudites don't choose a discipline (without an ACF), but they can learn any discipline power as long as it's one level lower than the highest they can manifest. They can of course also take Expanded Knowledge or use Psychic Chirurgy to learn new powers, even those not on the psion/wilder list.

Erudites also get Psicrystal Affinity as a bonus feat which psions do not.

[kalos72]

For a Psion, choosing a discipline limits the list of powers available correct? But you can learn ones outside your discipline through Psychic Chirurgery?

And what does the (Su) after some of the powers mean, I cant find the list again?

[Kelb_Panthera]

For a Psion, choosing a discipline limits the list of powers available correct? But you can learn ones outside your discipline through Psychic Chirurgery?

The only limit is that you can't choose the powers that appear only on the discipline list of one of the five you didn't choose, otherwise you can choose anything on the psion/wilder list or the discipline list for your chosen discipline.


And what does the (Su) after some of the powers mean, I cant find the list again?

I'm not sure what you're refering to here but "(Su)" usually denotes a supernatural ability, as opposed to a spell-like (Sp) or extraordinary (Ex) ability.

[kalos72]

Ok so its unique powers in the discipline I didn't choose, thanks.

I want to remake mt Fist of The North class and need to better understand these differences. :)

[Zanos]

There's a bit of a dispute on how Erudite works, if you care. The relevant text is thus:

Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level.
According to the text, the Erudites unique powers per day are actually unique powers per power level per day. I personally think Erudite is garbage if you don't go by that interpretation, because 3 unique powers total at level 5 is extremely terrible to keep your defenses up and have any offensive power.

[schreier]

My understanding:

Both have powerpoints, and are limited in their use of powers per day by those points (i.e. must have powerpoints available to manifest a power)

A Psion learns powers per level similar to a sorcerer ...
An Erudite learns powers per level more similar to a wizard.

A psion learns their powers through: level, feat (expanded knowledge), or Psychic Chirurgery (level 9 telepath powers)

An erudite learns their powers through : level, feat (expanded knowledge), Psychic Chirugery, OR by committing powers into repetoire (learning the power from another's repertoire, learning it from a power stone). The last costs 20xp per power gained, and once its gained, may be used as any other power. So this is kind of like a wizard scribing a scroll, but the cost is in xp as opposed to gold. A power stone is kind of a psionic scroll.

So ...

Learning - both learn by level, feat, or chirurgery. ONLY erudite may also learn from another source for xp cost (either stone or mental contact with another that knows the power)

Specialization - Psions pick a discipline, kinda similar to a specialist wizard. This grants them access to the unique discipline powers. Erudite do not pick a discipline generally (they can take an ACF, granting them easier access to the powers).

Manifesting - both are limited by power points. ONLY erudite have the additional limit of unique powers per day (says "powers per level" - so that becomes a minor restriction, but some view it as powers per day total, not per level - which is much more restrictiing)

ACF - psions have acfs listed on the wizards website. My favorite is a telepath psion can take telepathy at lvl 5. Erudite's main ACF is "spell to power" - which lets them research and learn arcane spells as powers.

[ExLibrisMortis]

There's a bit of a dispute on how Erudite works, if you care. The relevant text is thus:

According to the text, the Erudites unique powers per day are actually unique powers per power level per day. I personally think Erudite is garbage if you don't go by that interpretation, because 3 unique powers total at level 5 is extremely terrible to keep your defenses up and have any offensive power.
I agree with the UP-per-level-PD reading, but Linked Power + Metapower is a good out-of-combat substitute. Another houserule that I like is "+INT to UPPD", reflecting a wizard's ability to prepare more different spells if they have more slots. Just in case the UPPLPD reading has your DM on edge.

[DMVerdandi]

If you are going to use an Erudite, Use the dragon 319 version.
It's tremendously less complicated. It essentially is a Psion, who manifests like a spirit shaman.

If you have 6 spells, and 3 level 1 slots, , each time you use a seperate power, you lock in the slot, and can re-manifest it by expending the power points.

So if you cast:
energy ray, and call to mind,
but you still have:
detect psionics, vigor, skate, and my light,
You have the ability to choose one of those that are still unmanifested to use on the third Unique power slot.
If you were to choose detect psionics, for the rest of the day, you wouldn't be able to chose vigor, skate and my light.


Rinse and repeat for 8 more spell levels.
So you essentially for ease of play have an every day carry sort of list of powers. Stuff you always want to have on hand, and you just keep that list around to remind you.
And if something comes up, and you randomly need to manifest... Divert teleport, If you have learned it, you can manifest it as a unique power, unlike a Psion, which would have had to just either learned it rather permanently, or bought an Item to replicate the power.

[kalos72]

So are we saying that an Erudite, since he doesn't have to pick a discipline, are limited to the powers he can chose from each discipline? You mention unique as to imply there are some powers you cannot learn if you haven't selected that discipline. I am gonna look that one up, not sure what powers that would apply to.

Would a custom class where I selected, Erudite learning w/Convert Spell to Power, no forced discipline pick and no unique powers per day limitation be too much?

Also, I like the Font of Power and Steal Life abilities as well...

FYI, my class has access to mindblades and the associated enhancement skills as well.

[schreier]

Erudites can not learn discipline specific powers as part of their "free" level gain powers. They can learn them from power stones, and from other psions, as well as through a feat.

The way "unique" powers work - is that each day, they can use that many powers. It kind of mimics wizard preparation in that it limits the powers that you can use each day - but it only "locks" in a power when you use it. So if you had 5 powers, and 1 unique power per day .... the first time you use a power that day, you can use any of the 5 powers you know. Once you've used a power, that is the only power you can use for the rest of the day. If you had 5 powers, and 2 unique powers per day ... first time you use a power, that one is one of your two for the day. From that point forward, you can still use any of the 5 powers. Once you've used a second power (so you use the first power, then the first power again, no change ... once you use a different power ...) that is your second unique power for the day - and you can only use those two for the rest of the day.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's a bit of a dispute on how Erudite works, if you care. The relevant text is thus:

According to the text, the Erudites unique powers per day are actually unique powers per power level per day. I personally think Erudite is garbage if you don't go by that interpretation, because 3 unique powers total at level 5 is extremely terrible to keep your defenses up and have any offensive power.

The problem with this reading is that it's too far in the other direction. By the time you cap out at -11- powers of each level per day, it may as well be entirely unrestricted. It also makes little sense that a variant that's supposed to be trading the ability to learn as many powers as it wants in exchange for being more restricted in its ability to manifest those powers to be -less- restricted in the number of powers it can manifest than the default class for half its career.

Further, the unique powers per day in the table exactly matches the widler's powers known. It seems unlikely this is mere coincidence. Powers are generally more versatile than roughly equivalent spells, making it unnecessary to have nearly so many available as would have a sorcerer to be nearly as capable.

If you then consider that there are also work-arounds to bypass that limit anyway, taking the above reading just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. YMMV.