Limits of Fabricate

[Naanomi]

What are the limits on the fabricate spell in your opinion? I've asked a few of these questions of the Sages but haven't ever gotten a response, so I'm guessing that is their way of saying 'ask your GM'?

For example... (all assuming the right materials, tools, and proficiency)
~Do you think Fabricate can make chemical changes, like making alchemical mixtures or healing potions?
~Do you think Fabricate can age materials, like making Beer or Cheese?
~Do you think Fabricate can make temperature changes, like Ice Cream or Hot Pancakes?
~Do you think Fabricate can make objects that would take an inordinate amount of time to make manually... extremely complex clockwork, writing a book, an intricately woven tapestry, a finely detailed map?

[MasterMercury]

The last bit in the spell description states that in order to make fine materials, such as armor or glass, you need proficiency in the tools. So, if you can rack up a lot of artisan tool profs. Fabricate would kill.
I don't think healing potions because it's magic, but normal antivenom or something sure.
Beer and Cheese if you have tool proficiency.
It says you could make glass, so temperature seems to be workable.
Clocks would take some work, but a rug would be easier to believe. Tool proficiency required.

[Naanomi]

Healing potions are made by herbalism kits, so they kind of skirt the line between magic or not, but I can see what you mean. Clockwork is basically what tinker-tools are for right?

Good call on the glass... sand->fine glass is an incredibly profitable use of the spell!

[SharkForce]

What are the limits on the fabricate spell in your opinion? I've asked a few of these questions of the Sages but haven't ever gotten a response, so I'm guessing that is their way of saying 'ask your GM'?

For example... (all assuming the right materials, tools, and proficiency)
~Do you think Fabricate can make chemical changes, like making alchemical mixtures or healing potions?
~Do you think Fabricate can age materials, like making Beer or Cheese?
~Do you think Fabricate can make temperature changes, like Ice Cream or Hot Pancakes?
~Do you think Fabricate can make objects that would take an inordinate amount of time to make manually... extremely complex clockwork, writing a book, an intricately woven tapestry, a finely detailed map?

- depends on DM ruling for. healing potions are magical; fabricate could speed up the brewing, but if it takes 8 hours to infuse the liquid with magic or whatever, it's still gonna take that long.
- yes, provided the "aging" process is actually something for which the materials are available to you. that is, if the "aging" process involves absorbing something from the air, and you have air, no problem. if you're in a vacuum, you're gonna need to provide the air. for cheese, i believe that involves having a few specific chemicals available. not sure what beer requires, tbh.
- why not? it can turn chunks of iron ore into a sword, which takes temperature change. it can temper the sword, which involves temperature change. the sword is not considered to have not been quenched, which is another temperature change.
- generally yes, provided your mind can properly organize the information. my guideline would be that if you could perform the task yourself without needing reference material, you could do it instantly with fabricate. if you could only point out the 5 biggest cities on a map of a certain area, a map that you fabricate would only have those 5 cities properly placed. naturally, any flaws in your memory will translate to the finished work; if you remember a mountain range being 5 days journey from the capital city of your home country, and it is 6, your map will reflect a 5 day journey (and be inaccurate). i would make an exception for copying something, provided you can see and comprehend the full object... relatively easy for a map, not so easy for a book or a highly complex clockwork device.

[Naanomi]

Good use for Keen Mind perhaps

[ClintACK]

The last bit in the spell description states that in order to make fine materials, such as armor or glass, you need proficiency in the tools. So, if you can rack up a lot of artisan tool profs. Fabricate would kill.

Or a dip into Knowledge Cleric...

[Bohandas]

~Do you think Fabricate can make chemical changes, ...?
~ ... making Beer or Cheese?


If it can do tge first one then it can do the second one

[pwykersotz]

What are the limits on the fabricate spell in your opinion? I've asked a few of these questions of the Sages but haven't ever gotten a response, so I'm guessing that is their way of saying 'ask your GM'?

For example... (all assuming the right materials, tools, and proficiency)
~Do you think Fabricate can make chemical changes, like making alchemical mixtures or healing potions?
~Do you think Fabricate can age materials, like making Beer or Cheese?
~Do you think Fabricate can make temperature changes, like Ice Cream or Hot Pancakes?
~Do you think Fabricate can make objects that would take an inordinate amount of time to make manually... extremely complex clockwork, writing a book, an intricately woven tapestry, a finely detailed map?

I would run it as no to all of the above.

Alchemical Changes - No. There's too much "magic" involved.
Aging Materials - No. Fabricate changes shape, nothing else.
Temperature - No, but the temperature of existing materials would be preserved. So technically it could make both if you had your water/ice at the right temp.
Complex objects - No and yes. If the wizard had the book memorized, sure. But the magic wouldn't take care of the minor details. For the very complex clockwork, probably not because magic and technology don't mix well in my custom world. But simple mechanical interaction would be fine.

Basically, in my mind Fabricate changes shape and interlocks materials, and nothing else.

[ClintACK]

I'd let Fabricate *copy* a book, if you had the paper and ink. Or draw or paint a picture of a scene you're looking at. Maybe sketch a map of the area you've spent the day exploring.

[VincentTakeda]

I agree with pwykersotz.

Obviously depends on the edition. I havent read a 4e or 5e version of the spell, but the 2e/pathfinder readings of the spell give me this impression.

I'm of the mind that its only a reshaping spell, but not so much of an assembling/blending/concocting/aging spell.

It will turn a branch into a baseball bat even if the branch wasnt baseball bat straight to begin with, but the readings I've had access to dont seem to indicate they'd even assemble multiple 'things' together even... Brass hilt on a steel sword? Nope... Fabricate each separately then assemble by hand. That sort of thing.

We have argued that it could form a solid block of salt from a pile of salt and thus also a solid diamond from a pile of diamond dust, since it is simply reshaping a single kind of object into another.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I'd let Fabricate *copy* a book, if you had the paper and ink. Or draw or paint a picture of a scene you're looking at. Maybe sketch a map of the area you've spent the day exploring.

I think that goes well beyond what the spell is meant to do. Creating books from pulp and/or skins, I guess, but not doing scribe work.

[ClintACK]

I think that goes well beyond what the spell is meant to do. Creating books from pulp and/or skins, I guess, but not doing scribe work.

Why not?

It can make trees into a bridge. Is that really so much less complicated than copying words? Any third-grader can do one of these things. I certainly wouldn't drive over a bridge built by third-graders. Would you?

A pile of sheep trimmings into finished clothes -- completely with stitching and dyes and the necessary laces and trimmings.

You can even use it to make "items that ordinarily require a high degree of craftsmanship, such as jewelry, weapons, glass, or armor" -- IF you have proficiency with the type of artisan’s tools used to craft such objects.

Calligrapher's supplies are listed right there in the "Artisan's Tools" table. Right between Brewer's supplies and Carpenter's tools. Writing a book is clearly an artisan's tools kind of proficiency. Just like carpentry.

The spell description just says, "You convert raw materials into products of the same material." A book is clearly a product made of paper and ink. Arguably, you could start with squid corpses and some trees...


And most of all: It's a 4th level spell. And *all* it does is let you do crafting that you're already proficient with much more quickly than usual.

Why on earth would you need to nerf that?

[pwykersotz]

Why not?
...
Why on earth would you need to nerf that?

I would allow this too, because I view the spell as reorganizing the ingredients into a new form that you understand thoroughly how to create. But I think you misconstrue the argument to have it not work. It's not about "nerfing" anything. It's about how you perceive magic to work in your world. About what magic does on its own versus what it does at your command. It's about how you visualize the spells and casters in your game. It's not a form of "Wow, that's OP, take away that toy now!" It's a form of "what makes sense with my preconceptions?" And D&D has a LOT to answer for in this vein because of it's kitchen sink casters and the desire to unify all genres and styles of magic under one roof.

At least, that's how I see it.

[SharkForce]

I would run it as no to all of the above.

Alchemical Changes - No. There's too much "magic" involved.
Aging Materials - No. Fabricate changes shape, nothing else.
Temperature - No, but the temperature of existing materials would be preserved. So technically it could make both if you had your water/ice at the right temp.
Complex objects - No and yes. If the wizard had the book memorized, sure. But the magic wouldn't take care of the minor details. For the very complex clockwork, probably not because magic and technology don't mix well in my custom world. But simple mechanical interaction would be fine.

Basically, in my mind Fabricate changes shape and interlocks materials, and nothing else.

the problem here is that fabricate must do some of these things.

turning trees into a bridge doesn't say it turns trees into a crap bridge that's going to fall apart in no time flat because you used green wood instead of seasoned wood... nothing like that is even remotely implied, really... therefore, we must presume that the wood is seasoned (which is basically aged). as noted, a sword made with fabricate would be presumed to be tempered, annealed, quenched, etc... all of those processes involve temperature changes.

i can certainly agree that fabricate does not infuse a mundane object with magic, so the question of "can it make alchemist's fire" is largely a question of "is alchemist's fire magical" and if yes, "how long does it take to infuse alchemist's fire with magic, and can it be done within the duration of a fabricate spell". but for the rest, some pretty straightforward examples of how you might use fabricate most definitely do involve aging or temperature change.

[pwykersotz]

the problem here is that fabricate must do some of these things.

turning trees into a bridge doesn't say it turns trees into a crap bridge that's going to fall apart in no time flat because you used green wood instead of seasoned wood... nothing like that is even remotely implied, really... therefore, we must presume that the wood is seasoned (which is basically aged). as noted, a sword made with fabricate would be presumed to be tempered, annealed, quenched, etc... all of those processes involve temperature changes.

i can certainly agree that fabricate does not infuse a mundane object with magic, so the question of "can it make alchemist's fire" is largely a question of "is alchemist's fire magical" and if yes, "how long does it take to infuse alchemist's fire with magic, and can it be done within the duration of a fabricate spell". but for the rest, some pretty straightforward examples of how you might use fabricate most definitely do involve aging or temperature change.

It's a difference of degrees. It's one thing to say that your tree turns into a quality bridge. It's another to say that you create a cask of wine that matches the ones that the elves have been aging a thousand years. And regarding the blacksmithing, the magic requires none of that to actually happen because all those things are just mundane ways to reform and strengthen the metal. Whereas the magic just shapes it that way.

While I did say no to all of the above, I don't see it as a rigid strangulation of the spell's application. I just don't view certain extrapolations as valid. With my alcohol example above, if a person wanted to make a cask of beer or wheel of cheese, I'd simply allow it. Technically they both require aging to a certain degree, but it's handwaved as unimportant. However, when you're trying to gimmick the aging process by artificially controlling it, that's when it becomes invalid. In short, if you ask if this milk can be turned to cheese with fabricate, the answer is yes. If you ask if you can age this milk with fabricate, the answer is no. The results might be fundamentally the same, but the process matters (to me).

Just to clarify my reasoning, this method of determining application is useful to me as a method of stopping the game mechanics from stacking ever higher into (what I see as) silliness and eliminating reasonable situations from the game. If fabricate makes 10,000 year old aged wine, then naturally that's what corners the market. Then there's nothing special about the wine, it's sold in every bar. My sense of immersion demands that 10,000 year old wine is special, and therefore magic can't duplicate it because I'm unwilling to restrict other variables such as the number of wizards who can cast the spell or certain economic factors that have their own consequences. I'm not interested anymore in turning a world into an extrapolation of the rules, but interpreting the rules in such a way as to make the world of my imagination. It's one reason that I like the dominant question of the thread, which was "What are the limits on the fabricate spell in your opinion?". I think that's one of the most valuable ways to ask a question like this.

[smcmike]

It's a difference of degrees. It's one thing to say that your tree turns into a quality bridge. It's another to say that you create a cask of wine that matches the ones that the elves have been aging a thousand years.

With my alcohol example above, if a person wanted to make a cask of beer or wheel of cheese, I'd simply allow it. Technically they both require aging to a certain degree, but it's handwaved as unimportant. However, when you're trying to gimmick the aging process by artificially controlling it, that's when it becomes invalid. In short, if you ask if this milk can be turned to cheese with fabricate, the answer is yes. If you ask if you can age this milk with fabricate, the answer is no. The results might be fundamentally the same, but the process matters (to me).

Just to clarify my reasoning, this method of determining application is useful to me as a method of stopping the game mechanics from stacking ever higher into (what I see as) silliness and eliminating reasonable situations from the game. If fabricate makes 10,000 year old aged wine, then naturally that's what corners the market. Then there's nothing special about the wine, it's sold in every bar. My sense of immersion demands that 10,000 year old wine is special, and therefore magic can't duplicate it because I'm unwilling to restrict other variables such as the number of wizards who can cast the spell or certain economic factors that have their own consequences. I'm not interested anymore in turning a world into an extrapolation of the rules, but interpreting the rules in such a way as to make the world of my imagination. It's one reason that I like the dominant question of the thread, which was "What are the limits on the fabricate spell in your opinion?". I think that's one of the most valuable ways to ask a question like this.

A few points:

1. 1,000 year old wine would presumably require very special grapes - quality in, quality out. You can't just take any old grape and make special wine, no matter how good your technique. This is one potential solution to the problem of markets filled with amazing products.

2. This problem only really exists if you are using the rules to describe the world, rather than as a way to allow players to interact with it.

3. That being said, I agree that "aging" cheese or wine or whatever isn't obviously part of what fabricate does. In fact, the creation of fermented foods is fundamentally a biological process, so you could even say that it's beyond the spell altogether.

Personally, I'd allow it, assuming the player had the appropriate tool proficiency. As for "aging," well, age doesn't equal quality anyways.

[Naanomi]

Isn't wine all about being pretentious for no reason anyways?

'Elf: "I only drink *naturally* aged wine, you can really taste the difference" (there is no difference they taste the same)'

As for having 'wine in every bar'; that presumes a *lot* of 7+ level spellcasters willing to work mundane jobs in the world... while a wizard's academy having ancient wine every night seems to be a good setting element to showcase the presence of multiple powerful spellcasters

[Stray]

the problem here is that fabricate must do some of these things.

turning trees into a bridge doesn't say it turns trees into a crap bridge that's going to fall apart in no time flat because you used green wood instead of seasoned wood... nothing like that is even remotely implied, really... therefore, we must presume that the wood is seasoned (which is basically aged). as noted, a sword made with fabricate would be presumed to be tempered, annealed, quenched, etc... all of those processes involve temperature changes.


Seasoning wood involves mostly removing the moisture from it, we do it either by heating or letting it evaporate over long time, but magic can just move water out of a way.
Heat treating and other techniques are methods of controlled manipulation of micro-structure within metal, if magic can arrange atoms in desired shape you would achieve the same effect without heating or cooling anything. A mage proficient with appropriate tools might not know theory behind atomic structure, but they would be aware of metallurgy (or carpentry) and able to use the spell to shape material into desired form. Methods used by magic don't need mortal techniques step by step to reach the same outcome, but spells needs directions for what exactly do you want. And if you have wrong idea in your head about how to make something or how it works the spell might assemble it according to your imagination. And you end up with sword shaped lump of iron (if not proficient), or pattern welded blade instead of real Damascus steel (if proficient but not aware of how Damascus steel is actually made).
I would describe it as experience with crafting an object puts the correct idea of it in spellcaster's mind and the spell executing this idea whether it is feasible or not.

[pwykersotz]

2. This problem only really exists if you are using the rules to describe the world, rather than as a way to allow players to interact with it.

Like I said, I'm unwilling to adjust other economic factors. Enforcing quality of grapes doesn't really interest me.

As for your second point here, you've precisely described the problem. The players interact with the world based on the rules. And while I could certainly say that the players are unique and powerful people to whom normal rules don't apply (and I do!), there comes a point when the rules failing to describe the world becomes more of a source of confusion than help because the players can't extrapolate based on their experiences. I don't feel the need to do much, just smooth a few rough edges. And I believe my interpretation of Fabricate is both within the rules and also smoothes those particular edges. It's win-win.

[smcmike]

Like I said, I'm unwilling to adjust other economic factors. Enforcing quality of grapes doesn't really interest me.

While I agree that the quality of grapes isn't interesting, I extend that lack of interest to include basically all "economic factors." my point is that if you care about wine quality (I don't), you are really talking about grape quality.

[Coffee_Dragon]

It can make trees into a bridge. Is that really so much less complicated than copying words? Any third-grader can do one of these things. I certainly wouldn't drive over a bridge built by third-graders. Would you?

Actually, I'd trust a third-grader to conceive of the shape of a bridge (into which to magically warp an amount of wood) before trusting them to conceive of the full contents and physical representation thereof of a book (into which to magically warp an amount of paper+ink or similar).


A pile of sheep trimmings into finished clothes -- completely with stitching and dyes and the necessary laces and trimmings.

Now you're just adding things that aren't in the spell description. You are free to do that, but it doesn't mean anyone who goes with a conservative reading is "nerfing", for any useful definition of that word.


And most of all: It's a 4th level spell. And *all* it does is let you do crafting that you're already proficient with much more quickly than usual.

In about the same way that "all" Fireball does is let you do what you could already do if you had a lot of matches and your enemies were tied up for a bit. It's selling the spell a bit short. When there are multiple threads dedicated to how a single spell might impact a campaign, then it doesn't particularly contribute to an impression that people with 4th-level wizard spells aren't getting enough out of them.


I would allow this too, because I view the spell as reorganizing the ingredients into a new form that you understand thoroughly how to create.

Pretty much what you wrote, with the addition that the specific case of a written book requires a far higher level of abstraction than an unwritten one. At some point you go beyond what's a "product". Creating a book if you've got bookbinding prof is one thing; filling the book with words is not manufacture, that's use of the item. The spell description doesn't say Fabricate draws your maps or pens your books for you. If the magical force we're talking about is some kind of highly intelligent genie, capable of independently arranging and fixing and processing things, as opposed to a crude but hard-working one, then what kind of limitations do make sense for the spell?

[SharkForce]

perhaps my understanding is off, but i believe extremely old wine is called "vinegar". and it isn't something most people would be excited about if you served it to them in a cup.

as i understand it "really old" doesn't make wine good. "from the right year" (and by extension, the right crop), and the right people processing the crop makes a pretty significant difference. a certain vintage might be older than another, and yet of greatly inferior quality. certain wines are by default aged to a certain amount, but some quick research suggests about 5-10 years to be the max anything is deliberately aged before sale, and most wines don't need or benefit from aging in the slightest. so go ahead, make your 10,000 year old wine. if you do it really well, it might not be complete and utter trash (of course, anyone who has the appropriate proficiency will also know that 10,000 year old wine is not really a thing). ultimately, making aged cheese or wine is unlikely to compete with making plate mail or vehicles of various types (carriages, small boats, parts of ships, etc), so why should i care if someone is trying to make a quick buck off of fabricate with wine-making?

@stray: that's nice. why can't a wizard rearrange molecules and atoms to match "aged" cheese or wine as well? are they somehow *less* composed of atoms and molecules than a steel sword or a wooden bridge? are ice molecules less molecular than water molecules?

[pwykersotz]

ultimately, making aged cheese or wine is unlikely to compete with making plate mail or vehicles of various types (carriages, small boats, parts of ships, etc), so why should i care if someone is trying to make a quick buck off of fabricate with wine-making?

You probably shouldn't based on your arguments. It's not about controlling wealth. If you're concerned about that, you should probably ban Fabricate outright.

It's about maintaining a sense of immersion in the world. It's about making magic more interesting than "I create a piece of the sun with minor conjuration." It's about the motivations of NPC's and players alike, which are guided by the mechanics of the game to a variable extent depending on DM. It's not about money, it's about the setting.

[Naanomi]

In my setting there are so few wizards (or bards I suppose) casting 4th level spells that it isn't a big issue from an economy standpoint... or those that are around have better things to do with their limited spell slots that play the commodity market

[SharkForce]

You probably shouldn't based on your arguments. It's not about controlling wealth. If you're concerned about that, you should probably ban Fabricate outright.

It's about maintaining a sense of immersion in the world. It's about making magic more interesting than "I create a piece of the sun with minor conjuration." It's about the motivations of NPC's and players alike, which are guided by the mechanics of the game to a variable extent depending on DM. It's not about money, it's about the setting.

so there is some absolutely crucial flavour element to every single setting anyone could possibly imagine that makes it absolutely essential that wizards cannot turn grapes into aged wine? or perhaps there's some reason a wizard being able to make old cheese as opposed to just making cheese in general destroys the motivation of every single character in existence?

there is no game-breaking element that is generally applicable to the point where fabricate needs to be unable to do these things. for some special setting, where aged wine is somehow particularly central, sure, but as some sort of general rule? no. that's just nonsense.

[pwykersotz]

so there is some absolutely crucial flavour element to every single setting anyone could possibly imagine that makes it absolutely essential that wizards cannot turn grapes into aged wine? or perhaps there's some reason a wizard being able to make old cheese as opposed to just making cheese in general destroys the motivation of every single character in existence?

there is no game-breaking element that is generally applicable to the point where fabricate needs to be unable to do these things. for some special setting, where aged wine is somehow particularly central, sure, but as some sort of general rule? no. that's just nonsense.

No? It's a preference. Nothing more. You seem to be taking this as a dire offense that a spell's flexibility would dare be curbed for anything as trivial as flavor. My players like my interpretation (I poll them regularly on such things) and that's enough for me. I figured maybe a few forum-goers might enjoy it too. But it's hardly worth consideration with regards to being "gamebreaking".

[SharkForce]

No? It's a preference. Nothing more. You seem to be taking this as a dire offense that a spell's flexibility would dare be curbed for anything as trivial as flavor. My players like my interpretation (I poll them regularly on such things) and that's enough for me. I figured maybe a few forum-goers might enjoy it too. But it's hardly worth consideration with regards to being "gamebreaking".

that's fine for "I don't want it to work that way". if you said that, I'd have no argument - clearly, you know what you like better than I do, after all.

on the other hand, it doesn't work for "I just don't view certain extrapolations as valid" or "that's when it becomes invalid".

"invalid" doesn't mean "I don't want it to work like that so I changed how it works in my games", it means "it doesn't work like that".

and seeing as how those two statements are directly taken from what you said on the subject, you're not presenting it as a preference. you're presenting it as fact.

[pwykersotz]

that's fine for "I don't want it to work that way". if you said that, I'd have no argument - clearly, you know what you like better than I do, after all.

on the other hand, it doesn't work for "I just don't view certain extrapolations as valid" or "that's when it becomes invalid".

"invalid" doesn't mean "I don't want it to work like that so I changed how it works in my games", it means "it doesn't work like that".

and seeing as how those two statements are directly taken from what you said on the subject, you're not presenting it as a preference. you're presenting it as fact.

Ah, all right. If it's just semantics I'm fine with letting this lie. I believe I've used terminology that is appropriately indicating that I'm expressing subjective ideas in pretty much every one of my posts, even in the one you reference. If you deem I did not, then that's fine. If others express the same thing, I'll edit my posts with new disclaimers about it.

[Vogonjeltz]

the problem here is that fabricate must do some of these things.

turning trees into a bridge doesn't say it turns trees into a crap bridge that's going to fall apart in no time flat because you used green wood instead of seasoned wood... nothing like that is even remotely implied, really... therefore, we must presume that the wood is seasoned (which is basically aged). as noted, a sword made with fabricate would be presumed to be tempered, annealed, quenched, etc... all of those processes involve temperature changes.

i can certainly agree that fabricate does not infuse a mundane object with magic, so the question of "can it make alchemist's fire" is largely a question of "is alchemist's fire magical" and if yes, "how long does it take to infuse alchemist's fire with magic, and can it be done within the duration of a fabricate spell". but for the rest, some pretty straightforward examples of how you might use fabricate most definitely do involve aging or temperature change.

You're right, it's not implied, it's directly stated that quality of the end product is based on the quality of the materials used.

"The quality of objects made by the spell is commensurate with the quality of the raw materials." (PHB 239)

A Potion of Healing. is magical: "A character who drinks the magical red fluid in this vial" (PHB 153)
Being so, it's ruled out by Fabricate: "magic items can't be created or transmuted by this spell." (PHB 239)

Those caveats aside, as long as the object is non-magical and literally all the raw materials are available (not just some of them), then the end product is created (assuming it doesn't violate any other restriction in the spell, aka size/space limits).

Fabricate is just creating the end point object faster.

As far as spellbooks go, they're just books, but the spells in them are more, per the copying process under the Wizard class section, it requires experimentation with the magic to get it right; So no I probably wouldn't let a Wizard use Fabricate to duplicate their spellbook (or anyone elses).