Is there a pathfinder equivalent to Tome of Battle?

[SangoProduction]

Most (martial) combat in 3.5 style games is "I swing my sword" for x rounds. Kinda boring. Tome of Battle changed that and added a little variety to martial combat. Is there something similar to it for PF?

[Zanos]

Path of War is a pretty shameless clone, although there are some differences here and there.

[legomaster00156]

Ditto for Path of War, from Dreamscarred Press. As a bonus, the publishers continue to come out with new material for the system, but for a free sample, you can look here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war).

[exelsisxax]

Path of War is a pretty shameless clone, although there are some differences here and there.

Shameless and unrepentant improvement, though.

[Morcleon]

Shameless and unrepentant improvement, though.

In some ways. There's a distinct drop in the utility of PoW though.

[digiman619]

In some ways. There's a distinct drop in the utility of PoW though.

Other than the infamous Iron Heart Surge, what can you do in ToB that you can't in PoW?

[Morcleon]

Other than the infamous Iron Heart Surge, what can you do in ToB that you can't in PoW?

Off the top of my head, blindsense, scent, (Ex) teleportation, multiplicative boosts, save increasers/replacers, and increased actions. And Iron Heart Surge, however badly worded.

[exelsisxax]

Off the top of my head, blindsense, scent, (Ex) teleportation, multiplicative boosts, save increasers/replacers, and increased actions. And Iron Heart Surge, however badly worded.

Primal fury has scent, (Ex) teleportation should not exist, multiplicative boosts shouldn't exist, POW has plenty of save bonus counters and stances, being able to use swifts, standards, and immediates every turn with ease is action economy enough.

Don't know about blindsense. Might be in there somewhere.

[digiman619]

Off the top of my head, blindsense, scent, (Ex) teleportation, multiplicative boosts, save increasers/replacers, and increased actions. And Iron Heart Surge, however badly worded.

Obsidian Sidestep lets you replace any save with a Craft (glassmaking, painting, sculpture, or sketching) check, and unlike ToB, any martial initiator can swap in Shattered Mirror. Increased actions can be easily found in the Riven Hourglass discipline. (Ex) teleportation and multiplicative boosts aren't really a thing anywhere other than this book, and that's probably a good thing.

You have me on blindsense; I don't anything that gets that.

[ExLibrisMortis]

multiplicative boosts shouldn't exist
On single-attack strikes? Yes, they should! Single attacks are weak, and the Nightmare Blade line is a great fix.

[exelsisxax]

On single-attack strikes? Yes, they should! Single attacks are weak, and the Nightmare Blade line is a great fix.

Boosts that work like vital strike, or 2H str bonus increase are fine, but boost that are multiplicative are completely different. That kind of boost would do something like double your vital strike bonus die, double ALL bonuses, or interact multiplicatively with power attack rather than just stacking, all of which are unacceptable.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Boosts that work like vital strike, or 2H str bonus increase are fine, but boost that are multiplicative are completely different. That kind of boost would do something like double your vital strike bonus die, double ALL bonuses, or interact multiplicatively with power attack rather than just stacking, all of which are unacceptable.
You know what else doubles all bonuses and interacts multiplicatively with Power Attack? Getting multiple attacks (and critical hits, but they're hard to guarantee). Note that Vital Strike bonus dice are not multiplied, and neither is SA damage or a flaming weapon's fire damage, so multipliers are generally a bit weaker than extra attacks. Full attacking or Snap Kicking is still way ahead of single-striking (even with Vital Strike), so don't sweat the multipliers.

Anyway: the original matter is that PoW apparently doesn't have damage multipliers. I think that saying 'multipliers shouldn't exist' is a bit of a non-answer, at that point. Going from multipliers to no multipliers still equals lost utility (though I'm sure DSP added some things to compensate).

[Echch]

So yeah, PoW is basically your answer.
It's to ToB what PF was to 3.5: The options in it are a bit better balanced, but also a bit boring. It has made obvious fixes, but also lost some of it's charm.

It is, in every way possible, a ToB for PF.

[SangoProduction]

To be fair, multiple attacks is basically a damage multiplier, so they do already exist.

[Nifft]

Most (martial) combat in 3.5 style games is "I swing my sword" for x rounds. Kinda boring. Tome of Battle changed that and added a little variety to martial combat. Is there something similar to it for PF?

I have heard reports that indicate ToB classes are already at a decent power level for PF.

So, it's possible to use the classes as-is, just by repainting some skill names and gluing on some favored class ribbons.

[Powerdork]

gluing on some favored class ribbons.

I'd like to be able to say that every alternate FCB is balanced against +1 hit point or +1 skill point, which anyone can take as their favored class bonus in lieu of a racial option, but sadly we know that all of them are either worth more than the skill point or worth less than the hit point.

[Sayt]

Off the top of my head, blindsense, scent, (Ex) teleportation, multiplicative boosts, save increasers/replacers, and increased actions. And Iron Heart Surge, however badly worded.
Are we taking into account Path of war Expanded? Because...most of this is wrong.


Blindsense: The Dragon Knows (Curzed Razor, 5th level stance) Blindsight 60ft (Better than blindsense!), and foes can't use acrobatics to avoid provoking AoOs from you.
Scent: Running Hunter's Stance (Primal Fury, 1st level): Scent and +10 enhancement to movement speed
(Ex) Teleportation: Veiled Moon and Eternal Guardian have a number of (Su) maneuvers which use teleportation. If you're in an antimagic field and need movement, there are options like Leaping Dragon (Thrashing Dragon, Boost, 1st) which is a swift action acrobatics check to jump, as is Hastened Leap (Piercing Thunder, boost, 2nd level).
Multiplicative boosts: Do you mean sdecifically boosts which multiply damage? Because that would be way to powerful. Path of war does however have Strikes which multiply damage in the Scarlet Throne: Rising Zenith Strike (x2 damage), 2nd level; Ruby Zenith Strike (x3 Damage), 5th Level; Descending Sunset Strike (x4), 8th level.
Save Replacers: Sanguine Perseverance (Scarlet Throne, 4th level Counter) use sense motive instead of saving bonus, any save, Silver Crane Resurgence (Silver Crane, 4th Level Counter) Reroll any failed save with a +4 Sacred, Prince's Attitude (Scarlet Throne, 1st level Boost) +2 Ref and Will until next turn, Silver Crane Waltz (Silver Crane, 1st level Stance) Scaling bonus to reflex, Inner Sphere Stance (Thrashing Dragon, 1st Level stance) +2 Will saves, Reflexive Twist (Thrashing Dragon, 2nd level counter) acrobatics in place of reflex. And more.
Increased actions: Riven Hourglass' Relativity Burst, Beat the Clock and Break the Hourglass (5th, 7th and 9th, Respectively) grant increased actions at the cost of an immediate action.
Iron Heart Surge: Sanguine Perfection (Scarlet Throne, 5th level counter), Ignore blinded, confused, cowering, dazed, dazzled, deafened, disabled, dying (though he still suffers hit point damage each round), energy drained, exhausted, fascinated, fatigued, frightened, helpless, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, petrified, shaken, sickened, staggered, stunned, or unconscious for initiator modifier rounds.

[Echch]

Shameless and unrepentant improvement, though.

How about "shameless and unrepentant clone with various improvements"?
Seems to hit the nail on the head as far as I can see: It does what it does a bit better, and what it does is what ToB did a good while ago.

[digiman619]

Path of War is a pretty shameless clone, although there are some differences here and there.


Shameless and unrepentant improvement, though.


How about "shameless and unrepentant clone with various improvements"?
Seems to hit the nail on the head as far as I can see: It does what it does a bit better, and what it does is what ToB did a good while ago.

Can we settle with "spiritual successor"?

[Echch]

Can we settle with "spiritual successor"?

That sounds good too.

[AGrinningCat]

Pretend this isn't here because I'm incapable of reading.

[Taveena]

For what it's worth, there are some pretty major tuning issues with regards to PoW at the moment - Broken Blade and Primal Fury's damage is really overtuned, at the moment, and in general full attacking with the aid of boosts and stances pushes numbers way beyond what was intended for the system (or subsystem).
It's a really, really fun system to play with, and I wouldn't let that put you off it, but the somewhat more bounded nature of numbers in PF mean that PoW breaking it can be a lot more noticible. So... be careful.

[Manyasone]

It's what DSP does, isn't it? I mean Akashic improves on Incarnum, Ultimate Psionics improves on Expended Psionics and Path of War improves on Tome of Battle.
All are spiritual successors, which isn't a bad thing. As a PF DM I'm glad this stuff hit the light, since I don't port material from WotC

[digiman619]

It's what DSP does, isn't it? I mean Akashic improves on Incarnum, Ultimate Psionics improves on Expended Psionics and Path of War improves on Tome of Battle.
All are spiritual successors, which isn't a bad thing. As a PF DM I'm glad this stuff hit the light, since I don't port material from WotC

Believe it or not, they've had a Truenamer fix that, as far as I can tell, have never gotten out of playtest. You can find it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481694-Dreamscarred-Press-Presents-quot-Tzocatl-The-First-Language-quot&highlight=Tzocatl)

[Manyasone]

Believe it or not, they've had a Truenamer fix that, as far as I can tell, have never gotten out of playtest. You can find it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481694-Dreamscarred-Press-Presents-quot-Tzocatl-The-First-Language-quot&highlight=Tzocatl)

Maybe you should check this (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/strange-magic) out

[Klara Meison]

Are we taking into account Path of war Expanded? Because...most of this is wrong.


Blindsense: The Dragon Knows (Curzed Razor, 5th level stance) Blindsight 60ft (Better than blindsense!), and foes can't use acrobatics to avoid provoking AoOs from you.
Scent: Running Hunter's Stance (Primal Fury, 1st level): Scent and +10 enhancement to movement speed
(Ex) Teleportation: Veiled Moon and Eternal Guardian have a number of (Su) maneuvers which use teleportation. If you're in an antimagic field and need movement, there are options like Leaping Dragon (Thrashing Dragon, Boost, 1st) which is a swift action acrobatics check to jump, as is Hastened Leap (Piercing Thunder, boost, 2nd level).
Multiplicative boosts: Do you mean sdecifically boosts which multiply damage? Because that would be way to powerful. Path of war does however have Strikes which multiply damage in the Scarlet Throne: Rising Zenith Strike (x2 damage), 2nd level; Ruby Zenith Strike (x3 Damage), 5th Level; Descending Sunset Strike (x4), 8th level.
Save Replacers: Sanguine Perseverance (Scarlet Throne, 4th level Counter) use sense motive instead of saving bonus, any save, Silver Crane Resurgence (Silver Crane, 4th Level Counter) Reroll any failed save with a +4 Sacred, Prince's Attitude (Scarlet Throne, 1st level Boost) +2 Ref and Will until next turn, Silver Crane Waltz (Silver Crane, 1st level Stance) Scaling bonus to reflex, Inner Sphere Stance (Thrashing Dragon, 1st Level stance) +2 Will saves, Reflexive Twist (Thrashing Dragon, 2nd level counter) acrobatics in place of reflex. And more.
Increased actions: Riven Hourglass' Relativity Burst, Beat the Clock and Break the Hourglass (5th, 7th and 9th, Respectively) grant increased actions at the cost of an immediate action.
Iron Heart Surge: Sanguine Perfection (Scarlet Throne, 5th level counter), Ignore blinded, confused, cowering, dazed, dazzled, deafened, disabled, dying (though he still suffers hit point damage each round), energy drained, exhausted, fascinated, fatigued, frightened, helpless, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, petrified, shaken, sickened, staggered, stunned, or unconscious for initiator modifier rounds.


I'd also add that Harbingers get teleportation as a class feature, and that high-level Riven Hourglass stances give you an extra standard action per round every round.

[Tuvarkz]

I'd also add that Harbingers get teleportation as a class feature, and that high-level Riven Hourglass stances give you an extra standard action per round every round.

On top of this, the Mirror Demon's Waltz boost (Shattered Mirror 7) nets you a friggen 400ft+40ft/level teleportation (aka by the time you get it it's at least 920 feet) that flatfoots enemies both at your departing and at your arriving location, as a swift action.

[Necroticplague]

For multiplying maneuvers, there's also Twisting Wind Shot, which can guarantee a crit (which is basically a damage multiplier). Works lovely with firearms (which are all 20/x4, hit vs. touch).

[Castilonium]

Iron Heart Surge: Sanguine Perfection (Scarlet Throne, 5th level counter), Ignore blinded, confused, cowering, dazed, dazzled, deafened, disabled, dying (though he still suffers hit point damage each round), energy drained, exhausted, fascinated, fatigued, frightened, helpless, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, petrified, shaken, sickened, staggered, stunned, or unconscious for initiator modifier rounds.


Also Temporal Body Adjustment (Riven Hourglass, 4th level counter).

[Zanos]

It's what DSP does, isn't it? I mean Akashic improves on Incarnum, Ultimate Psionics improves on Expended Psionics and Path of War improves on Tome of Battle.
All are spiritual successors, which isn't a bad thing. As a PF DM I'm glad this stuff hit the light, since I don't port material from WotC
I personally think it's kind of wrong to profit of something that's so clearly derivative. YMMV.

[exelsisxax]

I personally think it's kind of wrong to profit of something that's so clearly derivative. YMMV.

Pathfinder, goodsir. The threshold has already been breached, and WotC isn't going to make ToB of PF.

[The Glyphstone]

I personally think it's kind of wrong to profit of something that's so clearly derivative. YMMV.

Similar to how the entirety of Pathfinder, including the core rules, are profiting from being a derivative of the 3.5 SRD? I mean it's not an invalid opinion, but only if you're objectively applying it to the entire game, rather than just DSP.

Plus, you can get most of DSP's material for free via d20pfsrd.com, which they happily support.

[Zanos]

Similar to how the entirety of Pathfinder, including the core rules, are profiting from being a derivative of the 3.5 SRD? I mean it's not an invalid opinion, but only if you're objectively applying it to the entire game, rather than just DSP.

Plus, you can get most of DSP's material for free via d20pfsrd.com, which they happily support.
I do hold the same opinion for all of Pathfinder, yes.

[Jack_Simth]

Primal fury has scent, (Ex) teleportation should not exist
Those Shadow Hand maneuvers in Tome of Battle were listed as Su.

[Zanos]

Those Shadow Hand maneuvers in Tome of Battle were listed as Su.
As far as I know, the general rule is that maneuvers are extraordinary, and the teleportation maneuvers do not specify they are supernatural, while other maneuvers do.

[Jack_Simth]

As far as I know, the general rule is that maneuvers are extraordinary, and the teleportation maneuvers do not specify they are supernatural, while other maneuvers do.
Really? [Checks]. Huh. Guess I was seeing what I expected, rather than what was.

[Psyren]

I personally think it's kind of wrong to profit of something that's so clearly derivative. YMMV.

Except the rules, just like the rest of PF, are available for free. If there is profit being had here, it's because people are satisfied enough with the results to want to contribute monetarily to the designers - in which case, it's obviously not your money, so why do you care?

And I say this as someone who has barely touched anything DSP made beyond psionics.

[Nifft]

it's obviously not your money, so why do you care?

He's explaining why it's not his money, and the reason why is because he cares about something.

It's very odd that you're confronting him about this.

I say this as someone who already contributed to this topic and is not currently participating in the derail discussion.

[Psyren]

It's very odd that you're confronting him about this.


I think it's far odder to lambast a product that's been made freely available for having some kind of nefarious profit motive, just because other people feel like showing their appreciation with their own resources. Thankfully, such oddities don't matter in the grand scheme of things and I've said my piece.

[Extra Anchovies]

Regardless of what any of us think about it, Wizards of the Coast themselves have said that it's fine to profit from products based on the D20 System - the whole point of the open game license is to let other publishers make stuff using the same basic rules.

Paizo was running Dragon Magazine (and not much else) for years until WotC switched it to online-only with the release of 4e. When all you've got is a big 3.5 design team, what else can you do besides make stuff based on the freely usable 3.5 rules? They've also been introducing completely original content from day one; rage powers, sorcerer bloodlines, round-based performance/rage, etc. Since then they've put out plenty of new stuff, and have been generally getting more original as they go.