adaptable flanker + mounted rogue.

[Snig]

I'm working on a build that relies on my mount taking the adaptable flanker feat, allowing it to move me to my target so I can full round attack + sneak attack. Is there any flaws in this idea? The wording on adaptable flanker is confusing to me. If my mount takes this feat, are we able to flank any enemy we encounter?

[Necroticplague]

I'm working on a build that relies on my mount taking the adaptable flanker feat, allowing it to move me to my target so I can full round attack + sneak attack. Is there any flaws in this idea? The wording on adaptable flanker is confusing to me. If my mount takes this feat, are we able to flank any enemy we encounter?

It depends on a few things.
1. If you also have the feat. No matter what, you need to be considered standing on opposite sides. So if you both had Adaptable Flanker, you could have a set-up like this:

.YEZ
mm
mm

Where m is you're and you're mounts actual location, Y is where you're considered to be, and Z is where your mount considered to be. Thus, you're considered to be on opposite sides for flanking

2. What the reach of your mount is. If you had a mount with 10 foot reach, you could have a setup like this:
...Z
...E.
mm
mm

Where m is you and your mount, E is an enemy, and Z is where your mount is considered to be.

3. Yeah, there's a major flaw: it's only really effective against Medium or smaller critters. Against bigger things, even tricks like this normally wouldn't cut it to get you flanking without actuall flanks, because it's hard to be on opposite sides of big things on your own. You might be able to extend this by having you both take it, and extending both your reaches.

[Quertus]

... Doesn't controlling the mount take an action? Or am I remembering the rules wrong?

[Zanos]

... Doesn't controlling the mount take an action? Or am I remembering the rules wrong?
Controlling a mount that is not trained for combat in combat requires a move action. Surprisingly, if you're just using a horse for in combat mobility, you have to make very few ride checks.

[Snig]

So both of us would need the feat to be able to flank an enemy while i'm mounted?

[Necroticplague]

... Doesn't controlling the mount take an action? Or am I remembering the rules wrong?

Depends

Guide with Knees

You can react instantly to guide your mount with your knees so that you can use both hands in combat. Make your Ride check at the start of your turn. If you fail, you can use only one hand this round because you need to use the other to control your mount.

Fight with Warhorse

If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
It's only a move action if it's not trained for war. It's also a DC 20 vs. DC 10.

[Troacctid]

The rules for mounted combat bar you from making a full attack in melee in a round where your mount moves more than 5 feet. You might get the flank, but you would not get the full attack.

[Snig]

The rules for mounted combat bar you from making a full attack in melee in a round where your mount moves more than 5 feet. You might get the flank, but you would not get the full attack.

But if I'm already in position I could full attack with flank? With just my mount taking the feat? Or both?

Also the mount will be a worg from the beast heart adept PrC. I think since the worg is intelligent, and can speak goblin / common it effects my ability to control him? I think we just have to speak which is a free action?

[Necroticplague]

But if I'm already in position I could full attack with flank? With just my mount taking the feat? Or both?
It depends on how far your mount can reach.


As a swift action, you designate a single opponent as the target of this feat. When you are adjacent to the chosen target, you can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies. You also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent. If you're mount can reach far enough that it can threaten a square on the opposite side of the enemy, only the mount needs it. If it's reach is a bit shorter, it might be required that you both take it (so you can both 'displace' you're effective flanking positions into desirable/useful ones).


Also the mount will be a worg from the beast heart adept PrC. I think since the worg is intelligent, and can speak goblin / common it effects my ability to control him? I think we just have to speak which is a free action?
If the mount is acting totally independently of you (i.e, you aren't guiding it, it's just doing it's thing while you're on it), you don't need to make any Ride checks to guide it. It's ability to communicate could indeed let it do that, assuming you can convince it to do what you want (which, if it's a bit reticent, could require Diplomacy, making it require a standard action). However, assuming the warg counts as trained for war, it's not that hard to meet the DC's to do it all as a free action anyway.

[ExLibrisMortis]

3. Yeah, there's a major flaw: it's only really effective against Medium or smaller critters. Against bigger things, even tricks like this normally wouldn't cut it to get you flanking without actuall flanks, because it's hard to be on opposite sides of big things on your own. You might be able to extend this by having you both take it, and extending both your reaches.
This is a pretty serious problem. I think the best solution here is adding reach to either mount or rider. This is in the flanking rules:
If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.
Adaptable Flanker doesn't mention that you can't choose to flank from a square occupied by your opponent, so this allows you to flank anything, no matter how big. In fact, you don't even need your mount for this: you still occupy your own square for flanking, too. With a reach-and-adjacent weapon, such as a spiked chain, you can self-flank and get perpetual sneak attack.
Nevermind, I totally misread that - a flanker is not a flankee, obviously. Reach is still a good solution, though.


But if I'm already in position I could full attack with flank? With just my mount taking the feat? Or both?
Yes, just your mount, but if you also take it, you'll have more options, if you need them.


Also the mount will be a worg from the beast heart adept PrC. I think since the worg is intelligent, and can speak goblin / common it effects my ability to control him? I think we just have to speak which is a free action?
I think worgs do not require Ride checks to guide, but Ride checks probably function as silent communication. For example, if you're fighting an 18th-level monk (Tongue of Sun and Moon, oh yeah baby), they might hear your tactical deliberations.

[Troacctid]

But if I'm already in position I could full attack with flank? With just my mount taking the feat? Or both?
It depends on your reach, as Necroticplague said.

I would recommend instead taking the Island of Blades stance from Tome of Battle, via the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats. It allows you and allies to flank from any angle, regardless of your threatened area.

[Snig]

So if my worg took adaptable flanker he would choose our target (flankee), then since the worg only has a 5ft range iirc, he would only count as a flanker for 3 squares correct? The square we currently occupy, and the one to the right and left of the flankee?

O
FXF
FWF

So X is the flankee, we're the W, and my worg counts as flanking for F? But in order for us to actually attack with flank (to get +2 and sneak attack), O would have to count as flank too, correct? So my worg would need a 10 ft reach to be considered flanking for O?

[Snig]

It depends on your reach, as Necroticplague said.

I would recommend instead taking the Island of Blades stance from Tome of Battle, via the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats. It allows you and allies to flank from any angle, regardless of your threatened area.

Is that a feat my mount can take?

[Troacctid]

Is that a feat my mount can take?
Yes it is.

[Necroticplague]

So if my worg took adaptable flanker he would choose our target (flankee), then since the worg only has a 5ft range iirc, he would only count as a flanker for 3 squares correct? The square we currently occupy, and the one to the right and left of the flankee?

O
FXF
FWF

So X is the flankee, we're the W, and my worg counts as flanking for F?
Not quiet, though you're close. The warg with the feat could be considered to be in any one of the Fs, in addition to W. So he could be on the right, or on the left, but not both at once. The feat says 'any', not 'all'.


But in order for us to actually attack with flank (to get +2 and sneak attack), O would have to count as flank too, correct? So my worg would need a 10 ft reach to be considered flanking for O?
Exactly. You could have it use a Mouthpick Spiked Chain to get the reach. Or you could take the feat yourself, so you can count as being on the left while your worg is considered to be on the right.

[A.A.King]

Another thing you could consider is the feat "Double Team" from the Dragon Compendium, it actually requires one less feat from your Mount than Adaptable Flanker (Only prerequisite feat is Combat Reflexes) but it requires that both you and your mount take it.

However, if you both have the Double Team feat than as long as you are mounted you will flank every creature that you threaten.

[Snig]

Ok, one more thought I had. If I took the feat "Ranged Threat" from dragon magazine, which allowed me to threaten every square within 15ft, with a ranged weapon.

Would this be another reliable method of getting full round attacks with sneak attack? My worg could run in and attack, I would threaten the square O from my diagram, and the target would be considered flanked?

Would I still take penalty from firing a bow in melee range?

[Necroticplague]

Ok, one more thought I had. If I took the feat "Ranged Threat" from dragon magazine, which allowed me to threaten every square within 15ft, with a ranged weapon.

Would this be another reliable method of getting full round attacks with sneak attack? My worg could run in and attack, I would threaten the square O from my diagram, and the target would be considered flanked?
Yes, but since ranged weapons provoke AoOs, this would open you up to being attacked whenever you attack. Sure, you could stand behind your worg to avoid this problem, but again, that's a tactic that only works on Medium foes.


Would I still take penalty from firing a bow in melee range?

No, because one of the prerequisites for Ranged Threat is precise Shot, which gets rid of this penalty.

[Snig]

Besides Arrowmind, and OotBI, is there any means of firing a bow while mounted in melee range without provoking an AoO?

[Troacctid]

Have total concealment, or make the enemy flat-footed. This will prevent any attacks of opportunity against you.