Would the Samurai's TWF count for other TWF benefits?

[Neowulf]

so I've been putting together a character that multiattacks & I was hoping to make a Dragonborn with a prehensile tail so he can use three swords at once & I was hoping a Samurai would be the class I can use it with

samurai comes with auto-proficiency with bastard swords & all types of armor & I'd love it if I can have one that runs around slamming people with three swords

[Extra Anchovies]

If you want to use three swords, you'll need to use the Multiweapon Fighting feat, which is entirely separate from TWF. Two Swords as One wouldn't work with three swords because it only functions while wielding a katana and wakizashi. You could, however, two-hand the katana while holding the wakizashi in your tail, if you really wanted to.

[Neowulf]

If you want to use three swords, you'll need to use the Multiweapon Fighting feat, which is entirely separate from TWF. Two Swords as One wouldn't work with three swords because it only functions while wielding a katana and wakizashi. You could, however, two-hand the katana while holding the wakizashi in your tail, if you really wanted to.

the prerequisite to getting the prehensile tail feat is to have TWF

multiweapon fighting is more about having 3+ arms & I'm gaining a tail, not an arm. if I need to use my tail, I need Prehensile Tail, which has TWF as a requirement

[Extra Anchovies]

Brace yourselves for this post. I'll be referencing Serpent Kingdoms...


the prerequisite to getting the prehensile tail feat is to have TWF

multiweapon fighting is more about having 3+ arms & I'm gaining a tail, not an arm. if I need to use my tail, I need Prehensile Tail, which has TWF as a requirement

Actually, Prehensile Tail got an update to 3.5 in the book Serpent Kingdoms, which overrides the Savage Species version. The prerequisite was changed to "Str 13, tail attack, Two-Weapon Fighting or Multiweapon Fighting", and the feat is otherwise identical. This is a good thing, because the whole point of MWF is that multi-armed creatures take MWF instead of TWF.

Regarding arms and tails, it's important to recognize that there's two kinds of hand in 3.5. There's physical hands, those are the thingies on the ends of your arms with little bendy sausages sticking out of them. Then there's combat hands, the main hand and the off hand, which aren't fixed to any specific part of the body. Some creatures have more than two arms and thus more than two physical hands, but they still only have one main hand and one off hand. A 6th-level Samurai holding a katana in one physical hand and a wakizashi in their other physical hand could make their first main-hand attack with the katana and their second main-hand attack with the wakizashi, and although they are wielding two weapons, they are not using the Two-Weapon Fighting combat option.

When a character elects to use Two-Weapon Fighting (which doesn't require the feat, but is pretty bad without it), they designate a particular weapon as the main-hand weapon, with any other weapons being off-hand weapons. Their normal BAB-granted attacks are made with their main-hand weapon, and then they get one (or more with Improved/Greater TWF) extra attack with each off-hand weapon. Multiweapon Fighting works the same way; the only differences are that MWF is used when attacking with more than one off-hand weapon.

Also, the rules are printed with the assumption of humanoid characters, so held objects will often be referred to as being "in hand" or similar; most of the time, you can substitute whatever other grasping appendage your character is using (tentacle, tail, etc), but some fine-manipulation things (opening potion flasks, perhaps) would require a grasper with multiple digits.

[Neowulf]

Brace yourselves for this post. I'll be referencing Serpent Kingdoms...



Actually, Prehensile Tail got an update to 3.5 in the book Serpent Kingdoms, which overrides the Savage Species version. The prerequisite was changed to "Str 13, tail attack, Two-Weapon Fighting or Multiweapon Fighting", and the feat is otherwise identical. This is a good thing, because the whole point of MWF is that multi-armed creatures take MWF instead of TWF.

Regarding arms and tails, it's important to recognize that there's two kinds of hand in 3.5. There's physical hands, those are the thingies on the ends of your arms with little bendy sausages sticking out of them. Then there's combat hands, the main hand and the off hand, which aren't fixed to any specific part of the body. Some creatures have more than two arms and thus more than two physical hands, but they still only have one main hand and one off hand. A 6th-level Samurai holding a katana in one physical hand and a wakizashi in their other physical hand could make their first main-hand attack with the katana and their second main-hand attack with the wakizashi, and although they are wielding two weapons, they are not using the Two-Weapon Fighting combat option.

When a character elects to use Two-Weapon Fighting (which doesn't require the feat, but is pretty bad without it), they designate a particular weapon as the main-hand weapon, with any other weapons being off-hand weapons. Their normal BAB-granted attacks are made with their main-hand weapon, and then they get one (or more with Improved/Greater TWF) extra attack with each off-hand weapon. Multiweapon Fighting works the same way; the only differences are that MWF is used when attacking with more than one off-hand weapon.

Also, the rules are printed with the assumption of humanoid characters, so held objects will often be referred to as being "in hand" or similar; most of the time, you can substitute whatever other grasping appendage your character is using (tentacle, tail, etc), but some fine-manipulation things (opening potion flasks, perhaps) would require a grasper with multiple digits.

well, MWF involves me getting (at minimum) a third hand. Granted, I think playing a Girallon would be awesome, but probably not allowable without a fairly large LA, which I'm already getting a +1 for this character I have in mind

now, if we can get back to the question I originally asked, would I technically be able to use this feat as long as my main hand weapon is a daisho & the off-hand is a wakizashi?

[Extra Anchovies]

Ach, just realized that you need three arms to begin with to take MWF, so Prehensile Tail still sorta does require TWF, which is dumb because TWF and MWF are redundant and the point of Prehensile Tail is to get MWF.


well, MWF involves me getting (at minimum) a third hand. Granted, I think playing a Girallon would be awesome, but probably not allowable without a fairly large LA, which I'm already getting a +1 for this character I have in mind

Both versions of Prehensile Tail allow you to treat the tail as a third hand for Multiweapon Fighting.

Here's a possible trick. Take Two-Weapon Fighting, Prehensile Tail, and Multiweapon Fighting. Prehensile Tail lets you count your tail as a hand for qualifying for MWF and subsequent feats. Multiweapon Fighting meets the "TWF or MWF" prerequisite of Prehensile Tail. Multiweapon Fighting and Prehensile Tail are each meeting each other's prerequisites, so as long as you don't lose your tail attack you also don't lose the benefits of either feat. You can now retrain Two-Weapon Fighting for any other feat you could've taken at the time, and voila! You suddenly have one more feat, appearing as if from nowhere.


now, if we can get back to the question I originally asked, would I technically be able to use this feat as long as my main hand weapon is a daisho & the off-hand is a wakizashi?

I don't think so.

He is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when wielding a katana and wakizashi, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for that feat.
You don't actually have the feat, you're just treated as having it. It would be reasonable (and maybe RAW-legal?) to take Prehensile Tail and only gain its benefits when you meet its prerequisites, i.e. when wielding a katana and wakizashi.

[Andezzar]

You don't actually have the feat, you're just treated as having it. It would be reasonable (and maybe RAW-legal?) to take Prehensile Tail and only gain its benefits when you meet its prerequisites, i.e. when wielding a katana and wakizashi.That is legal, if you are wielding the two swords, when you level up. When you actually do is entirely up to the DM though. If he grants you the necessary XP, and thus forces you to level up, during a rest period or some other time when not wielding the weapons, no prehensile tail for you.

[Extra Anchovies]

That is legal, if you are wielding the two swords, when you level up. When you actually do is entirely up to the DM though. If he grants you the necessary XP, and thus forces you to level up, during a rest period or some other time when not wielding the weapons, no prehensile tail for you.

Any self-respecting Samurai who dreams of having a prehensile tail would affix their weapons to their hands with sovereign glue.

[Andezzar]

Any self-respecting Samurai who dreams of having a prehensile tail would affix their weapons to their hands with sovereign glue.I think any self respecting samurai would commit seppuku for wishing to become such a freak ;)