Poison damage is pretty terrible, isn't it?

[Squeeq]

Looking through the MM and the various player options, not only is poison the damage type with most immunities among monsters, but monks and Druids can make themselves immune to it, make the party immune to it, and as a yuan-ti class, any class can be immune! The easy access to full immunity to poison makes green dragons by far the weakest dragon type, and handicaps a lot of monsters that depend on poison to deal damage. Because so many monsters use it, it's a shame access to immunity is so easy. Besides dispel magic on heroes feast, is there any way to help deal with this to keep poison-related encounters of use? I feel that so much of the monster manual is kind of out the window because of this.

[Nifft]

The immunity made a bunch of sense back in 1e, when poison was "save or die" -- I suspect that the current state of 5e is a nostalgic reflection of the previous mechanics, when using poison was an [Evil] act and therefore taking it away as an option was not going to affect most PCs.

But now it's just another form of damage.

I think a lot of the immune creatures & classes should probably just get Resistance.

[hymer]

Looking through the MM and the various player options, not only is poison the damage type with most immunities among monsters, but monks and Druids can make themselves immune to it, make the party immune to it, and as a yuan-ti class, any class can be immune! The easy access to full immunity to poison makes green dragons by far the weakest dragon type, and handicaps a lot of monsters that depend on poison to deal damage. Because so many monsters use it, it's a shame access to immunity is so easy. Besides dispel magic on heroes feast, is there any way to help deal with this to keep poison-related encounters of use? I feel that so much of the monster manual is kind of out the window because of this.

Don't throw the MM! You're liable to cause the cheap binding to come apart! :smalltongue: Or should that be


It's not easy being green.

That said, there's no reason you (as DM) can't simply switch out these things. I like to run all dragons as capable of breathing fire in addition to their 'native' damage type. Or you could switch green dragons to acid if you prefer. Just be upfront about it. If the players are obviously assuming poison damage on preparing for a showdown with a green meanie, inform them they shouldn't.

[Slipperychicken]

Poison is down there with fire as one of the most commonly-resisted damage types.

I do think it depends on whether your players take advantage of poison-immunity. If they don't, then poisonous monsters should be fine.

[Gastronomie]

This page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379165-MM-Resistances-Immunities-Vulnerabilities-and-Damage) shows the resistances/immunities/vulnerabilities for damage in the MM. There's 95 monsters with poison immunity and 5 with resistance.

Fire is second place, with 40 immunities and 37 resistances.

And well, they do make sense. Supernatural entities who don't have that-much-biological body structures in the first place wouldn't take any poison damage, and with good reason. The Devils, always living in hell (which is constantly on fire) would obviously have fire immunity, 'cause otherwise they can't even live on their home plane of existence.

That said, Fiends make up for a pretty damn large number of these immunities/resistances (14 demons, 11 devils, 4 Yugoloths, as well as Rakshasas and Succubuses), and Fiends are a rather campaign-specific thing. The same stands for Yuan-Ti, Golems, and Zombies, which also have poison immunity.

And a majority of humanoids/humans will take poison damage as normal. A lot of camapigns feature a lot of humanoids.

Thus, you may actually bump into not that many monsters with poison immunity, unless the campaign involves an archetype that has that as a common trait, such as the Fiends listed above. Then again, this also means that if your campaign revolves around these archetypes, a good number of your enemies might be immune to it (then again, that also stands for Fire and Cold as well).

[LudicSavant]

Poison damage is pretty terrible, isn't it?

Yes. Pick poison damage if you want roughly 100 creatures in the manual to be immune to your damage.


Poison is down there with fire as one of the most commonly-resisted damage types.

Immunity to poison is about twice as common as immunity to fire.

[ruy343]

As someone who actually has worked with poisons and pharmacology, I sometimes take issue with the idea that poison is a universally-resisted damage type, and similarly, that the source of poison damage is theoretically the same, but affects different creatures all the same way (ie. dealing the same amount of damage or same conditions/saves).

Poisons should be specific to their recipient to be effective, but D&D shies away from that level of complexity. Instead, we're stuck with a generic poison damage type. How can we overcome this from an in-game perspective, allowing players to feel more comfortable about choosing the trickery domain cleric or specializing in poisons (poisoner's kit with a rogue, for example)?

Just because a creature has immunity or resistance to generic poison, it's quite likely that there may be something out there that affects that individual creature type. If a Trickery Cleric were to obtain a specific poison for a campaign-relevant species, I'd allow them to generate that poison when using their divine strike. Similarly, against golems and other constructs, there may be anti-magical serums or even rust monster secretion that they might find and then be able to use. Maybe make a little quest out of it, and then permanently augment the player's ability as a result of finding such a poison?

What say you?

[Joe the Rat]

Don't forget three PHB standard subraces that have poison resistance.

On specific poisons beating immunities: I am always for plot point puzzle solutions to problems, from the rare ingredient, to the Epic Bane Substance. It simply requires someone to ask.
One of my workaround ideas is having a "poison" that deals a different damage type (necrotic, or radiant for "holy" poisons). It's almost a necessity for Dwarf assassinations.

On specific poison / venom types: Decide how detailed you want to get on your antitoxins. Are Sprite and Drow sleeping poisons different, or is there a single antisomnic that will revive from either? Snake Antivenom, or different ones for Vipers, flying snakes, and Yuan-Ti? Plant, Reptile, Insect, Fiend?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Just because a creature has immunity or resistance to generic poison, it's quite likely that there may be something out there that affects that individual creature type. If a Trickery Cleric were to obtain a specific poison for a campaign-relevant species, I'd allow them to generate that poison when using their divine strike. Similarly, against golems and other constructs, there may be anti-magical serums or even rust monster secretion that they might find and then be able to use. Maybe make a little quest out of it, and then permanently augment the player's ability as a result of finding such a poison?

What say you?
That sounds like a fine touch.

[BW022]

Yes, poison is fairly week in terms of creatures having resistances to it. However, on the flip side...

Cheap It is relatively inexpensive in terms access. It is only money to obtain it, vs. magic (which typically means taking spellcasting levels). Anyone could use poison, vs. spellcasting or scrolls.

Make It One can craft poisons via a skill. There is no way to make something able to do cold, physic, necrotic, radiant, etc. baring magic -- and really no magical item creation rules in 5e. Even without the skills, one can often utilize it merely by purchasing it, harvesting it (from animals, monsters, natural sources, etc.).

Additional Effect Poison can be put on arrows, blades, or other weapons. It still functions, doing piercing or slashing damage. A flask of oil, only does fire damage. A wand of ice only does cold damage. In fact, you could have hex, magical cold arrows, a magic bow, etc. and still put poison on the arrows.

Use Poison can be put on arrows, blades, etc. Meaning it is useful within melee or ranged. It's range may exceed that of spells. You'd need multiple spells to have both a ranged and melee option to say use lightning or necrotic damage.

Other Effects More powerful poisons have effects other than damage. Some of these are extremely good. A poison which causes the poison condition itself means disadvantage on attack and ability checks. That is massive. There are many types which cause unconsciousness, blindness, etc. These are worth far more than the minor extra damage they may do. Pixies with sleep arrows can be extremely deadly.

Stealth, Subterfuge Poison is generally small, non-magic, and its use silent and relatively free of big movements. Other forms of damage (typically with spells) almost always give away your position with spell casting. It is also easier to hide and conceal. It doesn't radiate magic.

Getting Away Poisons can placed in food, drink, etc. This permits timed usage, blaming others for its use, and not being blamed yourself. If you fireball a noble in his hall, you get blamed. If you put poison in his food... you might get away with it -- especially if you put poison in someone else's pouch or the food isn't eaten until days later.

Anti-Magic / Dispelling It functions in anti-magic areas and can't be dispelled.

There are still lots of monsters which are not immune to poison. Further, unlike other damage types... this one can be relatively easily gained without investing in class levels and/or magic. A ranger doesn't need levels of warlock or wizard to put poison on some arrows. You are no worse off as a ranger facing something which can't be poisoned. A ranger not using poison is no worse off that a poison using ranger when fighting undead or a green dragon. Both could use magical flaming arrows, hunter's mark or lightning arrow against a vampire. However, the ranger with poison is likely far better off with some poison on the same arrows when facing say a group of bandits, bugbears, NPCs, etc.

[Theodoxus]

My players have shied away from using poison due to monstrous resistance/immunity. I on the other hand, was saddened when my green dragon breathed on the party, and the two dwarves made their saves, taking a total of 16 points... the elf in the party nearly died and the dwarves laughed it off...

Then again, the dragon has a lot of minions (and some not-so-minion-y folk) to help with the 'dwarf' problem.

Yeah, the party loves to storm into situations without reconnoitering first... and then they have the audacity to complain when they trip all the traps! I'm an evil DM, apparently.

[XmonkTad]

Poison works at "double value" when it crits, so an assassin's more reliable crits from stealth work well with poison.

[JackPhoenix]

Poison works at "double value" when it crits, so an assassin's more reliable crits from stealth work well with poison.

Except poison can't crit, because its damage doesn't depend on attack roll, but saving throw.

[JellyPooga]

Except poison can't crit, because its damage doesn't depend on attack roll, but saving throw.

Poison *can* crit when there isn't a save e.g. a Flying Snake deals 1 piercing plus 3d4 poison damage with a successful Bite (no save). On a crit that becomes 2 piercing plus 6d4 poison damage. At least by my interpretation of the text for Critical hits.

Poison damage is much maligned, but undeservedly so IMO. So what if half the MM is immune to it? That's largely only because that half is all the Undead, Constructs, Elementals and Fiends. It's a rare campaign that you don't see at least a couple of skeletons, sure, but Constructs are hardly a common sight and I've seen more Elementals and Fiends fighting on the Players team than against them (due to Conjure spells, Familiars, Planar Binding, etc.).

If you're taking a trip to Baator or the Elemental Plane of...well, anything I suppose, then packing a case of poison is a waste of time, sure, but for your average adventure? Poison can stand you in good stead; take a look at who isn't immune or resistant to poison (by type); aberrations, beasts, celestials, dragons, fey, giants, humanoids, monstrosities, oozes and plants (with a few exceptions within those ranks)...which just about accounts for what? 70% of the enemies you'll fight over the course of any given campaign (assuming it's not specifically themed). More? It's a figure I'm pulling out of nowhere but the poison resistant/immune community, at least in my experience, doesn't actually seem to raise its ugly head all that often. Certainly not often enough to ignore poison as a useful (if morally dubious) tool.

Don't let the objective numbers from the MM fool you into thinking poison is useless. D&D is a subjective game. Treat it as such.