Building a Rouge w/Special Rules

[NoAnonimo]

Hi! New player here. :smallbiggrin:

So, I recently started playing D&D3.5 with a much more experienced group, and since then I started looking for information in here, and you all have been amazingly enlightening.
I have a couple questions that I havn't seen posted anywhere.

As the tittle says, I'm playing a rogue, and I would love you to help me figuring out how to build her. The GM is running the table with some special rules that I think gives the game mechanics a nice plot, as below:

A) You can pick almost any feat in 3.0 and 3.5 books (not magazines)
B) You can pick any weapon of 3.0 or 3.5 books
C) You pay no XP penalty for multiclassing.
D) You can skip the feat-selection option at lvl 3 and above until you get the prereq for the feat you want. By choosing this, you can pick it at any later level. This means you can get more than 1 feat at a given level.
E) If you picked a feat and didn't used it, you can change it anytime (at the start of a meeting). You can't repick a feat that you have used it twice in the past 2 weeks.


Currently, my character is aiming for a Daring Outlaw 2 daggers-wielding build.

Here is the PC info
Race: Strongheart Halfling
Level: 3: Rogue 2 / Swashbuclker 1
Weapon: Club-fist dagger (not sure the proper english name. Is a 3.0 light weapon: 1d4/1d6 DMG [lethal/No lethal], no throwable)
Flaw: Shaky Hands (-2 to ranged Atk)
Feats:
Lvl 1: Weapon Focus: Dagger
Strongheart Halfling: Craven (maybe a little too early?)
Flaw: Two-Weapon Fighting
Swash 1: Weapon Finesse
Lvl 3: *None* (see Special Rules)


So, I was thinking about my next feats: should I wait to Lvl 5 and take Daring Outlaw right away and something like Arterial Strike or Staggering Strike? Or should I take a feat right now and stay that way? (Btw, no feat repicking after you used it twice).
Also, what do you think about the Home rules? Would you adopt/change/discard any?

The main idea is to get the Penetrating Strike rogue ACF and the Shield of Blades Shawsbuckler ACF. Do you think is a good plan?

Also, should I improve my hitting chances by getting a coulple of +2 daggers, or should I take a couple +1, say, flaming dagger instead?

Also, I'm kind of the face of the team in bluffing social situations, since I'm maxing that skill to get some feints chances.


Do you think UMD a Must for a Rouge?
And what magic item should I be looking to?
I know this are a lot of questions, but I would really love you to read your advices :)

Thanks! :smallredface:

English is not my native language. Please go easy on me if I made a mistake. Thanks

EDIT: R o g u e :smallredface:

[Kaje]

R o g u e





.....

[Mordaedil]

R o g u e





.....

Did you read the disclaimer? Feel bad, man.

[Elzak]

Good day, fellow non-native-english-speaker!

It seems that your party is pretty high-optimized and you're on your way becoming a back-stabby-happy halfling. Hide, Move Silently and TWF will chew through most of your resource, so I don' t recommend you invest too much on Charisma-based skills. Thus, I suggest you to put at least 1sp in UMD just in case you need it. Let those casters worry for their own problem.

Get dark stalker(a feat from Lord of Madness) as soon as you can, it's a tax fee for every sneaky character. You may consider dropping weapon focus or craven and grab dark stalker first.

Btw, rouge is a masterwork tool of disguise, not a class from Player Handbook:smallwink:.

edit: darn typo!

[NoAnonimo]

R o g u e
.....

Fixed!


Good day, fellow non-native-english-speaker!

Good night from the other side!


Get dark stalker(a feat from Lord of Madness) as soon as you can

Feat:

You have learned how to stalk and surprise creatures whose senses are very different from those of a humanoid.

It seems good if you are fighting non-humanoids monsters. Is it really that good? Like, to drop craven?

[Mordaedil]

It gives you versatility to cover an eventuality that the rest of your party can't deal with, so it's fairly good. Mechnically? Maybe not. But your DM will probably accomodate to make it useful.

[Elzak]

It seems good if you are fighting non-humanoids monsters. Is it really that good? Like, to drop craven?

Well, if you ask me, it's better to hide and live another day than to get caught and screwed over.

Almost every monster/encounter and their mom got someway to beat your plain-old hiding check, for example, a watch dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dog.htm) employed by random town guards or bandits.

And then you have shapeshifters and their PC race cousins, tiger claw martial adepts, casters, all(most) of them are humaniods.

If you do have to kill or blow up something really really fast, just call your friendly teammates Mr. Beatstick or Miss. Caster. IMO These guys are your duct tape and WD40, never leave them behind.

[Eldariel]

1) Darkstalker is a must. Otherwise your main shtick, stealth, is useless against not only most kinds of creatures (even guard dogs have scent), but even against humanoids with level 2 spellcasting (e.g. Listening Lorecall can get Blindsight). The non-standard detection modes are so common that if you plan on hiding at all, you absolutely should have Darkstalker. It just expands your skillset greatly. Weapon Focus is a minor bonus. There's no real reason to take it. That's a feat you can easily give up for numerically more significant bonuses such as Darkstalker. Craven on the other hand is really good and you should stick to it.

2) If the party has a spellcaster (Cleric or Wizard), they can cast Greater Magic weapon on your Daggers. Thus, +1 with abilities is the way to go. Spells can take care of your flat bonuses.

3) Penetrating Strike is a great choice. Shield of Blades? It's replaceable. You can get shield bonuses through e.g. Animate Shield down the line. Then a Cleric can cast Magic Vestment eventually making the shield a +5 equivalent. That said, it might help you get started and the Dodge-bonus is a minor bonus as well so either is fine.

Arcane Stunt [Complete Mage] is nice though. The spells are minor but so is a +1 to Reflex on a high Reflex save high Dex character. Something like Expeditious Retreat or Blur can certainly be useful more often, Blur in particular. Blur actually grants Concealment which is one of the requirements for Hiding so it can even help with that. Actually, I'd recommend that. Take Blur, have some Int, rank up your Bluff and Hide in front of peoples' faces up until you get Hide in Plain Sight proper.

EDIT: Except, of course it just so happens that Grace is a requirement for Daring Outlaw. Well, talk that out with your DM; if it doesn't work out, go with Grace.

4) I recommend making Rogue your primary class. I generally go Rogue 16/Swashbuckler 3 all things told. Rogue special abilities are better than anything Swashbuckler gets and the massive array of skillpoints from Rogue-levels are sweet. If you'd prefer, you can use Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) to eventually pick up Ranger's Hide in Plain Sight. Other ways to acquire that ability include Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis [Tome of Magic] and various classes (Core-example in Shadowdancer though that class requires a lot of weak feats).

5) The reason why people are so militant about rogue vs. rouge is because rouge is a word too, from French for "red" used in particular in lieu of cosmetic products. So mixing your nightstalking backstabber assassin with a brand of lipstick is a bit inconvenient :smalltongue:

[NoAnonimo]

1) Darkstalker is a must.
Thanks!, that was trully a great explanation! Too bad I can't get blur and daring outlaw... I'll talk with the DM


2) +1 with abilities is the way to go.
I think I really needed that answer... Thanks, man.


4) I recommend making Rogue your primary class.
I was thinking about that, too. I just love the skill points. Maybe should I take a Skill Trick?



These guys are your duct tape and WD40

5) Mixing your nightstalking backstabber assassin with a brand of lipstick is a bit inconvenient :smalltongue:

ñ.ñ Lol. Nice guys!

So, I was reading a guide by PId6 that suggest Swordsage as a strong multiclassing option, even just for a 1 level dip. Since I would pay no XP (see special rules), should I consider it for Shadow Hand discipline?

Also, Is Staggering Strike a nice feat, or should I skip it too?
And, do Discipline Focus (lvl 1 swordsage) and Weapon Focus (my 1st level feat) stacks?

Thanks! :)

[Eldariel]

I was thinking about that, too. I just love the skill points. Maybe should I take a Skill Trick?

Yeah, far as Rogue goes, you can never have enough skillpoints. There's a lot you can do with them. Skill tricks are very useful, but they come at a cost in skill points. Thus, see what you can afford. Off the top of my head, Clarity of Vision and Back on Your Feet are eminently useful. Lots of the others can be nice depending on how you envision the campaign playing out but they're more specific.


So, I was reading a guide by PId6 that suggest Swordsage as a strong multiclassing option, even just for a 1 level dip. Since I would pay no XP (see special rules), should I consider it for Shadow Hand discipline?

Also, Is Staggering Strike a nice feat, or should I skip it too?
And, do Discipline Focus (lvl 1 swordsage) and Weapon Focus (my 1st level feat) stacks?

Thanks! :)

Staggering Strike can be quite strong. The DCs are usually hard to make and most notably being staggered prevents full attack. Sadly casters are hardly hampered. But yeah, as a sneak attacker it's easy enough to reapply the status every round due to flanking qualifying you for sneak attack so in that sense it can be a rather brutal form of lockdown (of course, if you're freely full attacking someone with sneak attacks for many rounds in a row, they're probably going down rather soon).

Discipline Focus grants the benefits of Weapon Focus-feat so the two together would amount to nothing more. Again, the first level Weapon Focus-feat is kind of a throwaway, so if you could trade it away that'd be very convenient. Far as Swordsage goes, I usually recommend two levels in the class, since first level adepts can only pick up 1st level stances regardless of their Initiator Level. The second level could then be used to pick up Assassin's Stance to further contribute to your Sneak Attack Damage. Being in a Shadow Hand stance also qualifies you for the Shadow Blade-feat from the same book which gives you Dexterity bonus to damage.

Note, the Child of Shadows-stance from the 1st level grants you Concealment so it too accomplishes the goal of enabling you to hide basically anywhere (as long as you keep moving). Actually, you can replace the normal 5' step with a 10' step if you can make a DC45 Tumble Check [Oriental Adventures], which would qualify you for the concealment down the line.

[NoAnonimo]

First level adepts can only pick up 1st level stances regardless of their Initiator Level. The second level could then be used to pick up Assassin's Stance to further contribute to your Sneak Attack Damage.

But ToB p 39. says that your initiator level is 1/2 your non-martial adept classes + your martial adept classes levels. Also, in p 16 it says that a Level 1 Swordsage knows just 1 stances. Shouldn't it be enough to take a higher-than-first-level stance?


Note, the Child of Shadows-stance from the 1st level grants you Concealment so it too accomplishes the goal of enabling you to hide basically anywhere (as long as you keep moving)..

That's nice! But, why should I take a 2nd level in swordsage? (see above)


Child of Shadows-stance from the 1st level grants you Concealment so it too accomplishes the goal of enabling you to hide basically anywhere

But it says that you can't use it to Hide in plain sight. Wouldn't that ruin the hiding plan?


I generally go Rogue 16/Swashbuckler 3

Wouldn't that be a bad choice, since Rogue 16 only gives +1 to Ref saves and +1BAB with no Sneak Atack Dice? Wouldn't be better Rou15/Shawsh3/Other1? (Just asking...)


Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

But ToB p 39. says that your initiator level is 1/2 your non-martial adept classes + your martial adept classes levels. Also, in p 16 it says that a Level 1 Swordsage knows just 1 stances. Shouldn't it be enough to take a higher-than-first-level stance?

Yes, but:
"You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you."

This is often read to mean on your first level you will only be able to take a 1st level stance no matter your initiator level. Should that not be a problem though, whatever.


That's nice! But, why should I take a 2nd level in swordsage? (see above)

Well, having Assassin's Stance for extra Sneak Attack damage when you don't need the Hide option from Child of Shadows is certainly solid.


But it says that you can't use it to Hide in plain sight. Wouldn't that ruin the hiding plan?

Ah, good point. Well, I guess it's back to Blur then.


Wouldn't that be a bad choice, since Rogue 16 only gives +1 to Ref saves and +1BAB with no Sneak Atack Dice? Wouldn't be better Rou15/Shawsh3/Other1? (Just asking...)

Well, I was thinking of maximizing the Daring Outlaw. If you mix others in there, you have plenty of options of course. Yeah, Rogue 16 doesn't grant anything particularly interesting so feel free to dump it for other classes.