OOTS #1058 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[SumGuy]

V to the delayed rescue!

[thorr-kan]

OK.

That'll work, too.

[maxon]

Aha - so there's V
Thinking again

[Quebbster]

Guess that means the chance of an immediate mutiny is going down again now that the ship has caught up to Haley and V and can see what they are doing...

[manuelj]

Get ready Pedantic V!

[Tass]

So, how does improved counterspell work?

Ah, google had the answer. I am rusty on the rules. I thought it was homebrew.

[CoffeeIncluded]

How many people have used counter spell in 3.5? Damn can it be useful.

[Trillium]

Heh, V is fantastic as usual.

Oh, and there's a giant guardsman.

[Quild]

Guess that means the chance of an immediate mutiny is going down again now that the ship has caught up to Haley and V and can see what they are doing...

You're optimistic, Andy will probably say that V is obviously not blasting the giants.
The deny is strong with this one.

[Quebbster]

You're optimistic, Andy will probably say that V is obviously not blasting the giants.
The deny is strong with this one.

True. Guess we'll see.
Also, is Belkar falling behind? The airship seems to be moving fairly fast...

[Trillium]

True. Guess we'll see.
Also, is Belkar falling behind? The airship seems to be moving fairly fast...

Hmmm, does Ring of Feather Fall cover falling BEHIND as well as falling DOWN?

[khadgar567]

nah he will come he just corpse checking while performing evil laugh skill of his aka he has jolly good time being himself

[Fitzclowningham]

So the frost giant cleric is at least level 11. Tough bugger.

[a1chemi]

True. Guess we'll see.
Also, is Belkar falling behind? The airship seems to be moving fairly fast...

Additionally, we don't know what's been happening on the ship while it was catching up. There could already be a fight going on.

[Lvl45DM!]

FIRST PAGE
Loved the effect on Haleys speech bubble.
loving the old giants magic and style.
Great fight Giant.
Though I do hope we will find out what the rationale behind this attack soon!
Inquiring minds want to know!

[wumpus]

So the frost giant cleric is at least level 11. Tough bugger.

A quick check of the SRD puts him at CR>=20. Considering that they are planning on challenging Xykon and Redcloak, presumably they are up to a minimal epic challenge.

[Doug Lampert]

So, how does improved counterspell work?

Ah, google had the answer. I am rusty on the rules. I thought it was homebrew.

It's a rather odd feat for V to have. It's not one the old V would have taken, although I suppose V got two feats at level 15 and could have taken it as the general feat then.

[Reboot]

Additionally, we don't know what's been happening on the ship while it was catching up. There could already be a fight going on.

I doubt we would suddenly join a fight-in-progress, there.

[Irish Musician]

nah he will come he just corpse checking while performing evil laugh skill of his aka he has jolly good time being himself

Frost Giant skulls probably fit a LOT of salsa in them..... :belkar:

[Doug Lampert]

A quick check of the SRD puts him at CR>=20. Considering that they are planning on challenging Xykon and Redcloak, presumably they are up to a minimal epic challenge.

What!?

That's totally wrong.

A generic frost giant is CR 9. Cleric levels are disassociated since frost giants don't cast as clerics so they count half up to level = to giant HD.

A frost giant cleric 11 is CR 14.

Edited to add: At class level 14 the cleric levels equal the HD, and the CR is 16, after that the levels start adding 1-1, so at level CR 19 you'd expect to be facing spells like Miracle and STILL wouldn't be epic.


Adding Class Levels
If you are advancing a monster by adding player character class levels, decide if the class levels directly improve the monster’s existing capabilities.

When adding class levels to a creature, you should give it typical ability scores appropriate for that class. Most creatures are built using the standard array of ability scores: 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, adjusted by racial modifiers. If you give a creature a PC class use the elite array of ability scores before racial adjustments: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Creatures with NPC classes use the nonelite array of: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8.

Associated Class Levels
Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.

Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.

Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.

A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

Note the bold above.

[Toper]

I hadn't been aware of Improved Counterspell either - that's pretty cool, clever, and team-oriented of V to learn and use.

I hope Belkar has a way to catch up besides a 20-ft movement rate, though.

[Kish]

It's a rather odd feat for V to have. It's not one the old V would have taken, although I suppose V got two feats at level 15 and could have taken it as the general feat then.
Vaarsuvius was already pretty big on counterspelling when they fought Samantha.


I hope Belkar has a way to catch up besides a 20-ft movement rate, though.
How about a 30-foot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#barbarianFastMovement) movement rate?

[aurilee]

I love that giant cleric, and his cold dishes.

[Irish Musician]

Vaarsuvius was already pretty big on counterspelling when they fought Samantha.

And would make sense for him now to go more of a "less fatal" route when picking spells and supplements to them.

[Meta]

Haley has a black wound on her right cheek. Don't those usually appear red on flesh?

[Skull the Troll]

Man V has grown. Time was, she'd have been nuking for all he was worth. the fact that V didnt take the time to explain to Blackwing however still shows some room for growth. :wink:

[arrowed]

V is on fire with the whole objective-oriented strategising! I think Haley, V and Belkar should definitely be focusing on outlasting the giants to give the ship time to pass by rather than causing a mini giantpocalypse. Even with clerics who can cast Blade Barrier, they probably won't be able to keep up with the ship after it's passed by them.
It warms my heart to see a super-high intelligence score be put to use so brilliantly. :smallsmile:

[TheNecrocomicon]

You're optimistic, Andy will probably say that V is obviously not blasting the giants.
The deny is strong with this one.

That would certainly be "the most frustrating way to rules-lawyer it". Right now, Andi is just looking for reasons to mutiny against Bandana; were it not for the fact that engineering skills are crucial in combat, Andi should be thrown in the brig at a minimum (or, knowing that the crew aspire to be pirates, take a long walk off a short plank).


Haley has a black wound on her right cheek. Don't those usually appear red on flesh?

Probably thermal cracking or a status effect induced by the frostbite spell. Actual piercing/cutting/bludgeoning wounds appear in red, and Haley got rid of those when she chugged the healing potion.

[Grand Arbiter]

Another comic that can be classified under "V is awesome" :smallcool:


Haley has a black wound on her right cheek. Don't those usually appear red on flesh? If it was a cut like an axe or a dagger, it probably would be. I think it's representative of the elemental damage she took, however. O'chul and Lien had similar damage markings from Lancer's sonic attacks.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[Hamste]

That would certainly be "the most frustrating way to rules-lawyer it". Right now, Andi is just looking for reasons to mutiny against Bandana; were it not for the fact that engineering skills are crucial in combat, Andi should be thrown in the brig at a minimum (or, knowing that the crew aspire to be pirates, take a long walk off a short plank).



Probably thermal cracking or a status effect induced by the frostbite spell. Actual piercing/cutting/bludgeoning wounds appear in red, and Haley got rid of those when she chugged the healing potion.

Probably the dexterity damage from the spell.

[georgie_leech]

Probably the dexterity damage from the spell.

Since the art upgrade, it's also how The Giant (heh) has been showing non-bleed-y damage.

[Shining Wrath]

Counterspelling is doing something. Admittedly, it's something a sorcerer would do better. Cowers before V's rage, then realizes (s)he can't hear me
So this is going to be OK. V will shut down most of the spells, Haley may well manage to wear the old one down enough that V can finish him with one spell. I wonder if Andi is watching?

[Tiri]

Since the art upgrade, it's also how The Giant (heh) has been showing non-bleed-y damage.

There have always been non-red wound lines in the comic. Less so than the red ones, but they've been around long before the art upgrade.

[Jay R]

Guess that means the chance of an immediate mutiny is going down again now that the ship has caught up to Haley and V and can see what they are doing...

This is a story, not a game. It wouldn't have come up if it weren't going to matter.


Time was, she'd have been nuking for all he was worth. the fact that V didnt take the time to explain to Blackwing however still shows some room for growth. :wink:

Either that, or concentration requires, you know, concentrating, and V could only make very simple replies.

[Morquard]

V is getting more and amazing since he stopped blasting everything as a first response! Woo, go V!

[IDrankWHAT]

Talk about character growth! V just keeps getting more wiser with each strip! Blackwing, however, still is as sardonic as always.

[Shining Wrath]

Like how V and Haley change color from panels 3&4 to panels 5&6 as the Frostbite wears off. Let's just hope the old one doesn't hit Haley with Shivering Touch - that would be cruel to an archer.

[Finagle]

Oh, Improved Counterspell is a feat, not a spell? Huh. Whoda guessed?

Counterspelling seems pretty munchkin-y. If a player started frequently counterspelling enemy spells, the DM would probably come up with a way to make him pay. It just seems like it makes things more boring. Doesn't make for a good story. Win by doing things, preventing things from happening seems munchkin-y.

The "cold breath" visual effect seems like it's ripe for being forgotten. Plus it's barely visible as a visual cue that it's cold outside. Not really sure it's worth the effort, especially as it'll just lead to fan nitpicks.

I also notice that the giants in the background of the ninth frame are continuing their fruitless assault on the hard wooden shell of the airship when a single rock would puncture the gas bag and send the ship crashing to earth. If this were Runequest instead of D&D, you could at least make an argument that air elemental sylphs were bound to the gas bag and were blowing the giant rocks away. Here, it's just kind of baffling.

[factotum]

This is a story, not a game. It wouldn't have come up if it weren't going to matter.

Firstly, that's not true: some authors will include a Chekov's Gun that never actually gets used, just to play with reader expectations. Secondly, while I agree that a mutiny or *some* sort of problem is likely to be an issue, the only reason for it to actually happen now would be so Roy could talk it down. I think it's likely to come up later, maybe to prevent Roy and the gang getting quickly from the dwarven kingdoms over to where Xykon is.

[Jay R]

Oh, Improved Counterspell is a feat, not a spell? Huh. Whoda guessed?

Counterspelling seems pretty munchkin-y. If a player started frequently counterspelling enemy spells, the DM would probably come up with a way to make him pay. It just seems like it makes things more boring. Doesn't make for a good story. Win by doing things, preventing things from happening seems munchkin-y.

Neither more nor less so than wearing armor.

[zimmerwald1915]

Man V has grown. Time was, she'd have been nuking for all he was worth. the fact that V didnt take the time to explain to Blackwing however still shows some room for growth. :wink:


Either that, or concentration requires, you know, concentrating, and V could only make very simple replies.
:vaarsuvius: Blackwing, you may have noticed that my explanations tend to consume more attention than my plans themselves. Given that concentration is a factor, I simply say that it is imperative that you not drill any more words into my brain now. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html)

[Kish]

Man V has grown. Time was, she'd have been nuking for all he was worth. the fact that V didnt take the time to explain to Blackwing however still shows some room for growth. :wink:
Telling the giant "I'm going to counter your spell" might have been quite unwise.

Oh, Improved Counterspell is a feat, not a spell? Huh. Whoda guessed?

Counterspelling seems pretty munchkin-y. If a player started frequently counterspelling enemy spells, the DM would probably come up with a way to make him pay. It just seems like it makes things more boring. Doesn't make for a good story. Win by doing things, preventing things from happening seems munchkin-y.
What? This sounds like "munchkin-y" is being used to mean "I, Finagle, don't like it," and like you have issues with the entire Abjuration school. Certainly there's no shortage of horror stories about passive-aggressive DMs who go out of their way to punish players for "doing things I don't like," but let's not pretend it's a baseline (or has justification).

Edited in response to your edit: I'm also shaking my head at the simultaneous complaining that Vaarsuvius did something effective and that the giants aren't doing something you think would be effective. Complaining about the art based on still more weird assumptions at the same time just puts the cherry on the sundae here.

[Doug Lampert]

Oh, Improved Counterspell is a feat, not a spell? Huh. Whoda guessed?

Counterspelling seems pretty munchkin-y. If a player started frequently counterspelling enemy spells, the DM would probably come up with a way to make him pay. It just seems like it makes things more boring. Doesn't make for a good story. Win by doing things, preventing things from happening seems munchkin-y.

The "cold breath" visual effect seems like it's ripe for being forgotten. Plus it's barely visible as a visual cue that it's cold outside. Not really sure it's worth the effort, especially as it'll just lead to fan nitpicks.

I also notice that the giants in the background of the ninth frame are continuing their fruitless assault on the hard wooden shell of the airship when a single rock would puncture the gas bag and send the ship crashing to earth. If this were Runequest instead of D&D, you could at least make an argument that air elemental sylphs were bound to the gas bag and were blowing the giant rocks away. Here, it's just kind of baffling.

It's a fairly ineffective tactic most of the time, especially against a cleric.

V just spent a higher level slot spell, which has to be of the same school so V still needed to correctly identify the spell being cast, to block a spell.

A higher powered enemy (Xykon for example) would simply spam 8th and 9th level spells and laugh as V was unable to counter due to not having a high enough level slot and V has wasted a turn to accomplish nothing.

V can't block Conjuration or Necromancy at all, and both have plenty of attack spells (for clerics necromancy especially has a lot). Again, if the cleric had used one of those V has wasted an action (or can use dispel magic if that's prepared, but it requires a roll and V isn't likely to have all that many prepared).

A cleric usually has a decent non-magical attack (throw rocks just leaps to mind in the present circumstance), the giant can simply pelt V while V stands there readying a counterspell.

It's situationally extremely useful, but it is situational.

[zimmerwald1915]

I also notice that the giants in the background of the ninth frame are continuing their fruitless assault on the hard wooden shell of the airship when a single rock would puncture the gas bag and send the ship crashing to earth. If this were Runequest instead of D&D, you could at least make an argument that air elemental sylphs were bound to the gas bag and were blowing the giant rocks away. Here, it's just kind of baffling.
How's this for an explanation: the rocks are heavy, the Mechane is high up, and they can't quite reach the gasbag?

[littlebum2002]

Counterspelling seems pretty munchkin-y. If a player started frequently counterspelling enemy spells, the DM would probably come up with a way to make him pay. It just seems like it makes things more boring. Doesn't make for a good story. Win by doing things, preventing things from happening seems munchkin-y.

That's not what munchkin means. It means "abusing a loophole (or creating one) in the rules to make your character more powerful", not "making the game less exciting"

[HandofShadows]

Smart move on V's part in my book. Getting the ship through is the important part.

[GregTD]

Wow, good for V!

V is really growing here. I like it.

[Basement Cat]

Haley's a lot tougher than I thought she was. So is V, or that matter.

I wonder if V's new heightened tactical sense is going to be key to victory at some critical junction in the future.

[JoeyTheNeko]

the ship has caught up. now they need to disengage and go on ahead for the next group of enemies.

the issue is that may be difficult, given they are facing an at least 11th level cleric.

[Jasdoif]

How's this for an explanation: the rocks are heavy, the Mechane is high up, and they can't quite reach the gasbag?I was thinking the Mechane could be a rigid airship, so it would have numerous smaller gasbags supported by a metal framework inside the cloth that only looks like a single big balloon from the outside; thus bashing the wooden structure to damage the machinery/crew or separate it from its source of buoyancy could very well be more effective targeting.

[warmachine]

Quick thinking by V there. I completely forgot about Blade Barrier, even though it's a standard Cleric spell.

Know the Player's Handbook spell list thoroughly, including class and spell levels. Your life may depend on it.

[Quebbster]

This is a story, not a game. It wouldn't have come up if it weren't going to matter.

Hence my use of the word "immediate". Let me phrase it another way: It will likely happen later rather than sooner.

[Yendor]

It's a fairly ineffective tactic most of the time, especially against a cleric.

V just spent a higher level slot spell, which has to be of the same school so V still needed to correctly identify the spell being cast, to block a spell.

A higher powered enemy (Xykon for example) would simply spam 8th and 9th level spells and laugh as V was unable to counter due to not having a high enough level slot and V has wasted a turn to accomplish nothing.

All they really need is more spells than you. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html) It's just being used as a delaying tactic.


Quick thinking by V there. I completely forgot about Blade Barrier, even though it's a standard Cleric spell.

It's been used (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html) at least twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0721.html) already, once witnessed by V.

[Sniffnoy]

Guess that means the chance of an immediate mutiny is going down again now that the ship has caught up to Haley and V and can see what they are doing...

I don't think so. I think to Andromeda, it'll look like V is just standing there doing nothing. That would increase the chance of a mutiny.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ah, the thrill of readying actions.

It's been very fun to see Vaarsuvius in action again. They, Blackwing, and Haley have a very nice dynamic.

[Kish]

It would be ridiculously petty for Andi to make an issue of six seconds passing between Vaarsuvius obviously doing something magical and against the giants, and Vaarsuvius obviously doing something magical and against the giants.

Not that Andi's above being ridiculously petty, as keeps being shown.

[ericgrau]

Odd on how people talking about how cheesy improved counterspell is when normally the forums say how weak it is. I mean at best you trade actions with a foe, at worst it doesn't work because of xyz and you get nothing. May as well just cast something instead and still be at least as effective as a foe... except in all the circumstances like this one where it's not a 1:1 trade-off and there is more benefit to stopping the enemy spell than there is casting another one of your own. Like many options sometimes it is handy and sometimes it isn't, it isn't all or nothing.

[Shining Wrath]

We also do not see the giants using arching shots to smash puny littlings against the deck, so I think the hypothesis that the Mechane is at the upper limit of a frost-giant hurled bolder is valid.

A smart giant might try flinging a giant-fist sized rock at the gas bag, but that evidently hasn't occurred to any of them.

I wonder how far back Belkar has fallen, as his swath of destruction is not visible in panel #9.

[VoxRationis]

Hey, it's a rule joke again! I missed them (and jokes in general) so much.

[kenlund]

Come on Belkar!! Catch up with the group and show that Cleric what it means to defy the sexy shoeless god of war.

But then Belkar might be cleaning up the other nearby Giants throwing rocks while V and Haley take on the Cleric...so that's important too.

[littlebum2002]

Come on Belkar!! Catch up with the group and show that Cleric what it means to defy the sexy shoeless god of war.

He already tried that once. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0869.html)

[Doug Lampert]

We also do not see the giants using arching shots to smash puny littlings against the deck, so I think the hypothesis that the Mechane is at the upper limit of a frost-giant hurled bolder is valid.

A smart giant might try flinging a giant-fist sized rock at the gas bag, but that evidently hasn't occurred to any of them.

That would be an improvised weapon:

Improvised Weapons
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

On the other hand throwing boulders via their special ability has an increment of 120' and thus goes 12 times as far without the extra -4 penalty.

They should go with what they're good at.

(To be more serious, lighter doesn't actually mean you can throw it farther, even with decent sized rocks air resistance is still fairly non-trivial; and for an object you pick to throw it's unlikely that the object mass is significantly effecting your launch velocity, you can't throw a spit wad supersonic just because it's light, you're still limited by your arm motion.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Good action
Good dialogue
Enjoying the new art style more with each strip.
Good Blackwing being a consistent pain in the nose.

[Lombard]

The Thinker's Lament

[Basil_Frog]

Out of interest how strong is a blade barrier? What level spell?
It was enough to stop Tsukiko, Gannji and Enor.
Pretty impressive Haley, V and Elan ran right through something that can tear a ship into splinters :smallsmile:

[ti'esar]

I'm finding the head cleric's lines oddly hilarious. He's so hammy.

[Kish]

Out of interest how strong is a blade barrier? What level spell?
Let me SRD that for you (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bladeBarrier.htm).

[Keltest]

That would be an improvised weapon:


On the other hand throwing boulders via their special ability has an increment of 120' and thus goes 12 times as far without the extra -4 penalty.

They should go with what they're good at.

(To be more serious, lighter doesn't actually mean you can throw it farther, even with decent sized rocks air resistance is still fairly non-trivial; and for an object you pick to throw it's unlikely that the object mass is significantly effecting your launch velocity, you can't throw a spit wad supersonic just because it's light, you're still limited by your arm motion.)

For that matter, a lighter object is going to impact with less force even if you do manage to make that extra bit of range, so it wouldn't necessarily do anything even if they could reach that far.

[Douglas]

It would be ridiculously petty for Andi to make an issue of six seconds passing between Vaarsuvius obviously doing something magical and against the giants, and Vaarsuvius obviously doing something magical and against the giants.

Not that Andi's above being ridiculously petty, as keeps being shown.
Ah, but from the Mechane's distance does a counterspell look obviously magical and against the giants? There's a distinct lack of blasting going on here, from a wizard known for blasting spells.

[Fitzclowningham]

He already tried that once. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0869.html)

That was before he got his vest of resistance +3 and amulet of protection against evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html). Things might go differently this time around.

[Keltest]

Ah, but from the Mechane's distance does a counterspell look obviously magical and against the giants? There's a distinct lack of blasting going on here, from a wizard known for blasting spells.

Where, exactly, would the crew get the idea that V resorts to blasting spells first, last and only? As far as has been shown, the Order isn't actually remotely famous the way Scoundrel is.

[Doug Lampert]

Let me SRD that for you (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bladeBarrier.htm).

OTOH if he's in range of a blade barrier to the Mechane and is of less than caster level 50 (probably a safe assumption), then the giants are not actually at the edge of their range for thrown rocks.

The GM/universe might have houseruled in a shorter range for vertical throws, and not for spells, and the Giant might have been using an enlarged blade barrier and Rich just left the "enlarged" off as being too obscure for non-D&D types. That would generate the scene as seen.

Alternately, for why no one is throwing rocks at the gas bag, I think I'll go with that by D&D physics the gasbag is only particularly vulnerable to rock throwing damage if the description of the airship says it is. D&D combat has shots at parts of a target only for a few specific things like Hydra heads.

[Shining Wrath]

Out of interest how strong is a blade barrier? What level spell?
It was enough to stop Tsukiko, Gannji and Enor.
Pretty impressive Haley, V and Elan ran right through something that can tear a ship into splinters :smallsmile:

6th level spell. Does 1D6 per caster level, which has to be at least 11, so it would do 11D6 (or more) to the Mechane per round the ship was passing through it.

[chy03001]

I absolutely love it! Counterspell really is an underused tool in this game but under the right conditions it is amazing.

[goodpeople25]

Where, exactly, would the crew get the idea that V resorts to blasting spells first, last and only? As far as has been shown, the Order isn't actually remotely famous the way Scoundrel is.
Well alot of the crew was there during the caster fight (and the ones who didn't would likely be told about it) but I don't think that would really give a rep for blasting probably the opposite given the result. (Same for the forcewall during the storm but that could've gone unnoticed)

[Anarion]

V is getting smarter about doing things and explaining them at the same time instead of explaining first. :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Ah, but from the Mechane's distance does a counterspell look obviously magical and against the giants? There's a distinct lack of blasting going on here, from a wizard known for blasting spells.
Looks pretty big, glowy, and pink to me.

[Douglas]

Looks pretty big, glowy, and pink to me.
A momentary flashy light met another momentary flashy light. That doesn't necessarily mean anything to a character who doesn't work with spellcasters frequently.

[luagha]

Counterspelling allows the other members of the party time to get their mojo on, and by mojo I mean swinging giant swords and stabbing people in the ankles and casting the 'multiple pointed sticks to the eye' spell. It's a teamwork move. You don't have to do it every time, but when it's valid, it's awesome.

---
Counterspelling seems pretty munchkin-y. If a player started frequently counterspelling enemy spells, the DM would probably come up with a way to make him pay. It just seems like it makes things more boring. Doesn't make for a good story. Win by doing things, preventing things from happening seems munchkin-y.

[Keltest]

Counterspelling allows the other members of the party time to get their mojo on, and by mojo I mean swinging giant swords and stabbing people in the ankles and casting the 'multiple pointed sticks to the eye' spell. It's a teamwork move. You don't have to do it every time, but when it's valid, it's awesome.

---
Counterspelling seems pretty munchkin-y. If a player started frequently counterspelling enemy spells, the DM would probably come up with a way to make him pay. It just seems like it makes things more boring. Doesn't make for a good story. Win by doing things, preventing things from happening seems munchkin-y.

Munchkin is not synonymous with effective, nor optimal. A munchkin specifically refers to somebody who attempts to stretch the rules in order to gain additional benefits for their character (for example, taking some sort of meaningless penalty that wont affect the game in order to justify an additional feat or ability that will actually be relevant.)

[8BitNinja]

See, this is why I don't like wizards. You mess up everything our cleric does, and just a general annoyanc- Ok I take it back! Put the fireball down!

[Keltest]

See, this is why I don't like wizards. You mess up everything our cleric does, and just a general annoyanc- Ok I take it back! Put the fireball down!

What kind of wussy paladin is afraid of a puny fireball? How do you ever plan on fighting red dragons if you cant even handle being set on fire?

[8BitNinja]

What kind of wussy paladin is afraid of a puny fireball? How do you ever plan on fighting red dragons if you cant even handle being set on fire?

It was a joke. What kind of paladin is afraid? Aura of Courage is obtained at 3rd level.

[Peelee]

It was a joke. What kind of paladin is afraid? Aura of Courage is obtained at 3rd level.

Well, a level 1-2 paladin, clearly.

[Jasdoif]

Well, a level 1-2 paladin, clearly.And level 3+ paladins that trade it out via alternate class features, too.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Ruck]

A momentary flashy light met another momentary flashy light. That doesn't necessarily mean anything to a character who doesn't work with spellcasters frequently.

I'd suggest it means more than "nothing."

EDIT: Besides, Andi's most recent complaint was that Haley and V flew ahead and left them behind. When the crew see the two engaged with frost giants, regardless of whether they can see the dweomers or not, that pretty much answers that question.

[OrbitalPanic]

Blackwing continuing his run as one of my favorite sources of comedy in the strip. Also good to see V using the counterspelling tactic again.

[georgie_leech]

I'd suggest it means more than "nothing."

EDIT: Besides, Andi's most recent complaint was that Haley and V flew ahead and left them behind. When the crew see the two engaged with frost giants, regardless of whether they can see the dweomers or not, that pretty much answers that question.

Inb4 "They're colluding with the giants! SEE?!" :smallamused:

[8BitNinja]

Well, a level 1-2 paladin, clearly.


And level 3+ paladins that trade it out via alternate class features, too.
May Heironeous have mercy on those paladins.

[Douglas]

Inb4 "They're colluding with the giants! SEE?!" :smallamused:
Yeah, really.

The Giant has stated things before to the effect that he chooses outcomes and then plans how to arrive at them in dramatic and interesting fashion, and I rather doubt he'd have put in something like Andi's behavior here without a specific plan for a plot point to result from it. I'm expecting Andi to continue misinterpreting things, whether intentionally or not, until it escalates all the way to a challenge for leadership with Bandana. And I'm expecting the Order to continue doing things that can (if you squint and stretch them a bit) be misinterpreted to fuel that.

I can only guess about the outcome of that challenge, though - there's serious significant development to be seen either way. If Andi wins, she'll almost have to abandon the Order or admit that the basis for her challenge was fake. The main plot then has to take a new direction as the Order needs to find new transportation. If Bandana wins, she will likely have established in the eyes of the crew that she deserves the command position in her own right, not just because Scoundrél chose her, which would be major character development for her. That path could then result in a Mechane that is much more unified and determined in their commitment to supporting the Order, which has lots of potential implications further on.

[Finagle]

Hey, it's a rule joke again! I missed them (and jokes in general) so much.

That is not possible. The author himself has stated that he does not do rules jokes any more. Readers should not have to understand D&D rules to follow the strip. OOTS is telling a story, not making inside jokes about a game system to a bunch of nerds.

[8BitNinja]

That is not possible. The author himself has stated that he does not do rules jokes any more. Readers should not have to understand D&D rules to follow the strip. OOTS is telling a story, not making inside jokes about a game system to a bunch of nerds.

It may be just me, but I miss rule jokes

[georgie_leech]

It may be just me, but I miss rule jokes

He still does them, they're just never the main point of the strip. Usually. I mean, Haley becoming Pointy Death Incarnate really only makes sense with how Rogue Sneak Attacks work, you just don't need to know that you get Xd6 damage out of it.

[alchamitepez]

And herein we see a new type of speech balloon; the frostbite balloon? Can't be too careful.

Anyhow, V for the win with his/her concentration.

[Kareasint]

Munchkin is not synonymous with effective, nor optimal. A munchkin specifically refers to somebody who attempts to stretch the rules in order to gain additional benefits for their character (for example, taking some sort of meaningless penalty that wont affect the game in order to justify an additional feat or ability that will actually be relevant.)

I would agree with Keltest here. The feat choice by V makes a lot of sense considering that he fought with Xykon once already and noticed that X uses a lot of Evocation and Necromancy spells. V cannot do anything about the Necromancy spells but he can stop a lot of lower level Evocation spells. He also has a partial list of what spells Xykon can cast which was given to Roy. Stopping X from casting a spell allows the other members of the party to move in.

[TuringTest]

Counterspell, the most boring yet effective kind of magic for spellcasting duels. :smallbiggrin:

[kaoskonfety]

Counterspell, the most boring yet effective kind of magic for spellcasting duels. :smallbiggrin:

As someone who has built and played a wizard as a dedicated magical duelist with improved counterspell and the raft of related tricks - like chess, it is very interesting, but it is not a spectator sport. I much preferred when the opposition agreed to settle the dispute with Wands of Wonder at 30 paces.

I cheated of course, but it was still more interesting.

[Themrys]

Vaarsuvius gets some character growth!

It must have been very hard for her to not explain it all in a wordy a way as possible to Blackwing. Giving short answers, while seemingly rude, was actually the wisest course of action in a situation where concentration is required. Not even V can monologue endlessly without it requiring some part of her considerable mental energy.

Now Blackwing has to learn to trust V.

[IDrankWHAT]

That was before he got his vest of resistance +3 and amulet of protection against evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html). Things might go differently this time around.

To be fair, this particular cleric isn't a 300 year old lizardfolk vampire either, so it could very well go differently!

[zimmerwald1915]

Now Blackwing has to learn to trust V.
*canned laughter*

[Rinazina]

I'm craving so much to see if the IFCC timeout V right now ..

[Killer Angel]

Vaarsuvius gets some character growth!


Yeah, it was some smart thinking. Liked it! :smallsmile:

[JumboWheat01]

Gotta keep up on those Spellcraft checks for counterspelling. Well played, V.

[arrowed]

As someone who has built and played a wizard as a dedicated magical duelist with improved counterspell and the raft of related tricks - like chess, it is very interesting, but it is not a spectator sport. I much preferred when the opposition agreed to settle the dispute with Wands of Wonder at 30 paces.

I cheated of course, but it was still more interesting.

This sounds like a brilliant story, and I love the idea of wizards settling disputes via formal duels with intensely unstable magical items. :smallbiggrin:

[Quibblicious]

It may be just me, but I miss rule jokes

Well... I consider many rules to be a joke.

Does that count?

Q

[8BitNinja]

Well... I consider many rules to be a joke.

Does that count?

Q

Bards and their not lawful alignments. Always able to make a joke about rules in words and lifestyle.

[StreamOfTheSky]

How many people have used counter spell in 3.5? Damn can it be useful.
It's useful when you have more spellcasters than the enemy. Or occasionally when your goal is to prevent the enemy from getting a spell off at any cost, rather than just defeating them (such as protecting an air ship...). It is useful, rarely. That said...


Man V has grown. Time was, she'd have been nuking for all he was worth.

The thing is...V could've just used the "Evoker's counterspell." That is, ready like you do for counterspell, but instead of doing a counterspell...you just disrupt the casting by hitting the enemy caster as hard as you can w/ a blasty spell, forcing an impossible concentration check. Accomplishes the same goal, also hurts the enemy, doesn't cost any feat or other investment, and...it just plain feels more satisfying. :smallwink:

[Kamunami]

This sounds like a brilliant story, and I love the idea of wizards settling disputes via formal duels with intensely unstable magical items. :smallbiggrin:

I was going to try and come up with a wacky and humorous example, but then my brain went straight to "Monster-summoning children's card game" and I can't make up something better than that!

[Kish]

That is not possible. The author himself has stated that he does not do rules jokes any more. Readers should not have to understand D&D rules to follow the strip. OOTS is telling a story, not making inside jokes about a game system to a bunch of nerds.
I have to wonder what you're trying to accomplish with these posts.

[8BitNinja]

This sounds like a brilliant story, and I love the idea of wizards settling disputes via formal duels with intensely unstable magical items. :smallbiggrin:

Sounds like the annual TNT duels. Sign up today, spots are limited.

[a1chemi]

He already tried that once. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0869.html)

This cleric is not a vampire, and almost certainly lower level than White Snake. Belkar would also have the backup of a rogue and wizard, and the benefit of his improved equipment.


I doubt we would suddenly join a fight-in-progress, there.

We don't have to. Rich could cut to events occurring elsewhere but simultaneous to these strips. It wouldn't be unprecedented in storytelling.

[Quibblicious]

Sounds like the annual TNT duels. Sign up today, spots are limited.

I don't think I want to duel with TriNitroToluene.

It's pretty easy to push around but one wrong move and its explosive personality goes off...

Q
Guess who made a Bardic knowledge check :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

This cleric is not a vampire, and almost certainly lower level than White Snake. Belkar would also have the backup of a rogue and wizard, and the benefit of his improved equipment.


We don't have to. Rich could cut to events occurring elsewhere but simultaneous to these strips. It wouldn't be unprecedented in storytelling.

You know there's a multi-quote button beside the main quote button, so you can have everything in one post.

[ackmondual]

So the best offense is a good defense? Here, the bigger concern are the frost giant cleric's spells against the airship, which is why she's only defending against those? I take it he'll be too well prepared against V's attack spells anyways?


Frost Giant skulls probably fit a LOT of salsa in them..... :belkar:
LOL

[Rogar Demonblud]

Frost Giant skulls probably fit a LOT of salsa in them..... :belkar:

Given the weather, wouldn't chili be a better idea?

[F.Harr]

When did Vaarsuvius become awesome?

Vaasuvius is awesome!

[F.Harr]

Given the weather, wouldn't chili be a better idea?

Kirk, my old friend. Don't you know the old Mexican proverb? Chili is a dish best served. . . hot.

Gazpacho, though.

[zimmerwald1915]

When did Vaarsuvius become awesome?
When did you become so easily swayed?

[JumboWheat01]

When did Vaarsuvius become awesome?

Vaasuvius is awesome!

V has always been awesome. This moment in particular, however, shows an Awesome level of Character Growth.

[8BitNinja]

I don't think I want to duel with TriNitroToluene.

It's pretty easy to push around but one wrong move and its explosive personality goes off...

Q
Guess who made a Bardic knowledge check :smallbiggrin:

You don't duel against it. You get a cigarette lighter and a few sticks and just chuck them, It's kind of like a literal rocket tag.

(Checks Rules)

Never mind, you actually duel an anthropomorphic stick of nitro.

Uhh...

Sign up today!

[Goblin_Priest]

Wouldn't it have been more worthwhile to dispel the invisibility purge? YES, I know, there's not much time left on Haley's invisibility... but there still is some. Feels to me like V using other spells while Haley readies sneak attacks against the caster would be a far more deadly combo than counterspelling. 1) Haley would deal way much damage per turn. 2) Haley would take way much damage per turn. 3) V could move further back and still be in range for most of the spells. 4) concentration checks due to large sneak attack damage seems more reliable to me than counterspelling, though maybe that's just because I'm not familiar with counterspelling rules (and to think of it, I don't remember a counterspell ever failing in this comic).

[Keltest]

Wouldn't it have been more worthwhile to dispel the invisibility purge? YES, I know, there's not much time left on Haley's invisibility... but there still is some. Feels to me like V using other spells while Haley readies sneak attacks against the caster would be a far more deadly combo than counterspelling. 1) Haley would deal way much damage per turn. 2) Haley would take way much damage per turn. 3) V could move further back and still be in range for most of the spells. 4) concentration checks due to large sneak attack damage seems more reliable to me than counterspelling, though maybe that's just because I'm not familiar with counterspelling rules (and to think of it, I don't remember a counterspell ever failing in this comic).

Perhaps, but unless they killed the giant in one round, which is not a sure thing, he could still have gotten off a spell and torn the Mechane to shreds. Their goal isn't "kill the giants", its "distract the giants."

And counterspell, if available, cannot fail. The only check is a spellcraft check to identify the spell being cast, which V can easily pass.

[littlebum2002]

Wouldn't it have been more worthwhile to dispel the invisibility purge? YES, I know, there's not much time left on Haley's invisibility... but there still is some. Feels to me like V using other spells while Haley readies sneak attacks against the caster would be a far more deadly combo than counterspelling. 1) Haley would deal way much damage per turn. 2) Haley would take way much damage per turn. 3) V could move further back and still be in range for most of the spells. 4) concentration checks due to large sneak attack damage seems more reliable to me than counterspelling, though maybe that's just because I'm not familiar with counterspelling rules (and to think of it, I don't remember a counterspell ever failing in this comic).

Unless they killed the Cleric in one round, though, the Mechane would be sailing through a Blade Barrier right now.

EDIT: Ninja'd by....20 minutes? How long did I have this open? Yeesh.

[Quibblicious]

You don't duel against it. You get a cigarette lighter and a few sticks and just chuck them, It's kind of like a literal rocket tag.

(Checks Rules)

Never mind, you actually duel an anthropomorphic stick of nitro.

Uhh...

Sign up today!


SUNDAY!! SUNDAY!! SUNDAY!!
Explosive Action!

etc...

Q

[Goblin_Priest]

Perhaps, but unless they killed the giant in one round, which is not a sure thing, he could still have gotten off a spell and torn the Mechane to shreds. Their goal isn't "kill the giants", its "distract the giants."

And counterspell, if available, cannot fail. The only check is a spellcraft check to identify the spell being cast, which V can easily pass.

Blade barrier is a level 6 evocation spell. The spellcraft DC is 21, and V can counter it with an evocation spell of lvl 6 or greater. If the spellcraft succeeds, then the counterspell automatically works.

On second though... okay, yea. Since a nat 1 isn't an auto-fail with skills, as far as I remember, this is indeed a more reliable course of action.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Wouldn't it have been more worthwhile to dispel the invisibility purge?

Depends. Is the invisibility purge centered on the caster, or on an object, or does it come from a magic item? And once you determine if its case A, B or C, you need to figure out which caster, object or magic item is the target.

Or you use an area dispel, which might not work, and may catch Haley and remove her enchantments (including the flight).

Counterspelling skips most of these steps.

[Jasdoif]

Wouldn't it have been more worthwhile to dispel the invisibility purge? YES, I know, there's not much time left on Haley's invisibility... but there still is some. Feels to me like V using other spells while Haley readies sneak attacks against the caster would be a far more deadly combo than counterspelling. 1) Haley would deal way much damage per turn. 2) Haley would take way much damage per turn. 3) V could move further back and still be in range for most of the spells. 4) concentration checks due to large sneak attack damage seems more reliable to me than counterspelling, though maybe that's just because I'm not familiar with counterspelling rules (and to think of it, I don't remember a counterspell ever failing in this comic).Counterspell was probably the right call. Even overlooking the general "don't let our allies get killed" thing; from a purely strategic perspective the Mechane is a vulnerable method of overland travel, without which it's going to be more time-consuming/difficult to get to their destination of Firmament.

Even if Vaarsuvius had something like Reactive Counterspell to be able to cast without losing the opportunity to counterspell, it'd still be more effective to cast something on the cleric directly than to try dispelling the invisibility purge so Haley could try to do something to the cleric.

[Kish]

Depends. Is the invisibility purge centered on the caster, or on an object, or does it come from a magic item? And once you determine if its case A, B or C, you need to figure out which caster, object or magic item is the target.

Or you use an area dispel, which might not work, and may catch Haley and remove her enchantments (including the flight).

Counterspelling skips most of these steps.
Also, Vaarsuvius has only gotten two actions (Mass Suggestion and Counterspell). Goblin Priest's proposal, to not include simply writing off the Mechane and everyone on it, presumes Vaarsuvius had at least one more action, and seems to give Haley an arbitrary number of actions as well.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually, I think GP was thinking of dispel instead of counterspell, then letting Haley go to town next round. I.E., after the giant shredded the Mechane.

I forgot to mention that an area dispel might also take out the Mass Suggestion spell.

Dispelling is rarely a good idea, IME.

[8BitNinja]

Actually, I think GP was thinking of dispel instead of counterspell, then letting Haley go to town next round. I.E., after the giant shredded the Mechane.

I forgot to mention that an area dispel might also take out the Mass Suggestion spell.

Dispelling is rarely a good idea, IME.

Suggestion is an enchantment, so if V cast permanency, it would stay.

[Kish]

You know, 8BitNinja, I'm often left with the impression that your very strong ideas about 3.5ed D&D are based on a very different rules system; I just don't know what rules system. Your most recent post is not an exception (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm).

[Arti]

Love the comic. I found it just last week and while I finished it in two days and nights, I didn't stop there. Been sharing it with my play group and friends, both D&D players and not players alike. I'm always excited to see updates!

[Ranzear]

And counterspell, if available, cannot fail. The only check is a spellcraft check to identify the spell being cast, which V can easily pass.

Especially when every caster shouts the name of the spell as they cast it :V

I'm sure this will be the gag next strip.

[Goblin_Priest]

My initial comment was done with lack of proper knowledge of counterspelling. I didn't think it through, and I don't know those rules off-hand because I don't think I've ever used them or seen them used in-game. I was assuming a greater risk of failure on the counterspeller's party, but checking up on the DCs, the higher level the caster is the sooner he reaches the "this can't fail anymore" level. At this point, for a lvl 6 spell, I assume V has a 100% success odd.

As for what my suggestion was, it was to dispell the invisibility purge instead of doing the mass suggestion spell. Since V cast that spell, we've seen Haley get up (usually a full round action), move and drink a potion (unless you can do both at the same time, I'm not sure, another full round action), and then shoot an arrow (after getting shot by a spell, suggesting it was again another turn).

Now sure combat is probably being done simultaneously for dramatic effect, and it's likely it wasn't intended to depict Haley getting 3 more rounds after V cast Mass Suggestion, but it was at least one more round, and likely two. I would assume that Haley should have been entitled to ready actions, specifically sneak attacks against the cleric, for whenever he casts a spell. Now I have no idea how much damage she does at this point, but I would assume 40 to not be expecting too much of her. 30, if you really want to be on the safe side (average sneak attack damage, alone, is higher than 30 at lvl 17). The cleric would have needed to do DC 40+ concentration checks.

The result?

The cleric would have gotten 80+ damage, both of his spells would have been foiled, Haley would have avoided much damage, V would have avoided damage, and V would have cast Mass Suggestion on the second turn.

Which is much better overall results than what was achieved. However, it also carries more risk. V was pretty much guaranteed to succeed on the counterspell. Sneak attacks on the other hand still require an attack roll, and spectacularly low damage dice would have meant a DC the cleric would have been able to beat.

[Runeclaw]

But without the Mass Suggestion, they'd be facing four hostile clerics instead of three. Haley couldn't interrupt all of their castings.

[Jasdoif]

As for what my suggestion was, it was to dispell the invisibility purge instead of doing the mass suggestion spell. Since V cast that spell, we've seen Haley get up (usually a full round action), move and drink a potion (unless you can do both at the same time, I'm not sure, another full round action), and then shoot an arrow (after getting shot by a spell, suggesting it was again another turn).

Now sure combat is probably being done simultaneously for dramatic effect, and it's likely it wasn't intended to depict Haley getting 3 more rounds after V cast Mass Suggestion, but it was at least one more round, and likely two. I would assume that Haley should have been entitled to ready actions, specifically sneak attacks against the cleric, for whenever he casts a spell. Now I have no idea how much damage she does at this point, but I would assume 40 to not be expecting too much of her. 30, if you really want to be on the safe side (average sneak attack damage, alone, is higher than 30 at lvl 17). The cleric would have needed to do DC 40+ concentration checks.

The result?

The cleric would have gotten 80+ damage, both of his spells would have been foiled, Haley would have avoided much damage, V would have avoided damage, and V would have cast Mass Suggestion on the second turn.You appear to be assuming the frost giants affected by mass suggestion aren't clerics themselves. If they are, we're talking up to three extra spells per round...and invisibility purge is only a 3rd-level spell, they could simply recast it and/or consume Haley's/Vaarsuvius' readied actions; leaving others free to cast. It's a great deal more risky.

Meanwhile, if mass suggestion had managed to hit all four of the frost giants, Haley and Vaarsuvius would have already "won" and could just move on.

[Kish]

As for what my suggestion was, it was to dispell the invisibility purge instead of doing the mass suggestion spell.
Saying "I think Vaarsuvius should have done something else instead of the thing that proved ineffective at what they were trying to do" smacks of 20/20 hindsight. If Vaarsuvius hadn't flubbed the wording on the Suggestion and three of the giants were now actually out of the combat, leaving only the unambiguous-cleric who cast Blade Barrier, I find it hard to believe you'd still be kibitzing "should have dispelled the Invisibility Purge instead."

[Jasdoif]

Saying "I think Vaarsuvius should have done something else instead of the thing that proved ineffective at what they were trying to do" smacks of 20/20 hindsight.Yeah; Roy is the future psychic, not Vaarsuvius.

Actually, would future psychicry (Psychicness? Psychicology? Psylemetry? Pyschonnaissance?) even apply if Vaarsuvius never tried mass suggestion...?

[Goblin_Priest]

Saying "I think Vaarsuvius should have done something else instead of the thing that proved ineffective at what they were trying to do" smacks of 20/20 hindsight. If Vaarsuvius hadn't flubbed the wording on the Suggestion and three of the giants were now actually out of the combat, leaving only the unambiguous-cleric who cast Blade Barrier, I find it hard to believe you'd still be kibitzing "should have dispelled the Invisibility Purge instead."

Though as I've mentionned in my last posts, I've actually changed my mind since the initial comment, and V's actions now appear to me as the safer choice. ;)

But it also could be pointed out that V got lucky on the Mass Suggestion. Had it failed to work on just one more cleric, counterspelling wouldn't have even been an option.

[Kish]

As opposed to counting on succeeding on a dispel check (assuming Vaarsuvius guesses rightly about where the focus of the Invisibility Purge is and that there's only one Invisibility Purge active, as Rogar points out) and then Invisible Haley being able to take out all the giants in one round which she started prone?

[8BitNinja]

You know, 8BitNinja, I'm often left with the impression that your very strong ideas about 3.5ed D&D are based on a very different rules system; I just don't know what rules system. Your most recent post is not an exception (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm).

I thought that permanency could be used on any enchantment. In my games, permanency isn't used that much. Also, I play with people who like to use house rules, and use rules from older editions.

[Peelee]

I thought that permanency could be used on any enchantment. In my games, permanency isn't used that much. Also, I play with people who like to use house rules, and use rules from older editions.

House rules are a poor pillar to argue on for in-comic events, though.

[Kish]

I'm also somewhat thrown by "I proposed using a spell which would be wholly unhelpful in this situation for at least three separate reasons because in my games it isn't used that much."

[Manty5]

> You appear to be assuming the frost giants affected by mass suggestion aren't clerics themselves.

I'm pretty sure they aren't, but if they were, then using mass suggestion was a foolish first move.

Yeah, we know in hindsight that 3 of them got taken down, but relying on 3 out of 4 CLERICS to fail a WILL save in order to set up a situation where you can counterspell the remaining cleric is something someone as smart as V just wouldn't do. That's Elan-level strategy.

I think V's choice of mass suggestion proves the mooks are fighter-types... especially since she just got done explaining why fireballing them wouldn't have been likely to be effective, which proves that she's choosing her spells carefully.

[8BitNinja]

House rules are a poor pillar to argue on for in-comic events, though.

I know, welcome to my gaming life.

[Kish]

I think V's choice of mass suggestion proves the mooks are fighter-types...
How would Vaarsuvius know their classes?

I mean, if we're treating what Vaarsuvius says as authoritative for some reason, they clearly used the plural, "clerics," not "a cleric and three fighter-types." But it makes no sense to even get to that point. Vaarsuvius has no source of knowledge of their classes that we readers do not have and thus it makes no sense to treat Vaarsuvius as such a source of knowledge themself.

[zimmerwald1915]

I mean, if we're treating what Vaarsuvius says as authoritative for some reason
Wasn't Haley the one to blurt "giant clerics?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1056.html) Surely she's an authority, right?

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, we know in hindsight that 3 of them got taken down, but relying on 3 out of 4 CLERICS to fail a WILL save in order to set up a situation where you can counterspell the remaining cleric is something someone as smart as V just wouldn't do. That's Elan-level strategy.You do realize frost giants have 14 racial hit dice; and Giant racial hit dice have good Fortitude, poor Reflex and poor Will saves, right? Targeting Fortitude would be ludicrous; and we already saw that standard frost giants have too many hit points to take out with a single damaging spell, so that takes most Reflex spells off the table if the idea was to neutralize them as soon as possible.

So what are you thinking Vaarsuvius should have cast instead?

[Gusion]

Yeah, really.

The Giant has stated things before to the effect that he chooses outcomes and then plans how to arrive at them in dramatic and interesting fashion, and I rather doubt he'd have put in something like Andi's behavior here without a specific plan for a plot point to result from it. I'm expecting Andi to continue misinterpreting things, whether intentionally or not, until it escalates all the way to a challenge for leadership with Bandana. And I'm expecting the Order to continue doing things that can (if you squint and stretch them a bit) be misinterpreted to fuel that.

I don't see much tension regarding Andi. Roy could probably stop it all with a diplomacy roll. If not, Elan could. If not, V would just dominate her and put an end to all of her nonsense.

Certainly Rich could explain away why none of those are an option, but there are a lot of options to shut Andi down if she truly impairs the mission.

[Kish]

Let's just say I'll be really surprised if the developing tension between Andi and Bandana never matters to the story.

[Gusion]

Let's just say I'll be really surprised if the developing tension between Andi and Bandana never matters to the story.

Yeah, I mean, that's not a terribly high bar and one would assume Rich is doing it for a reason. I admit I'm biased because I find the subplot to be a boring one.

[ericgrau]

I'm wondering why V is readying actions to deal damage to disrupt casting instead. He has a 5-10% chance of missing but it results in the eventual death of the cleric. Maybe he expects Haley or Belkar will eventually achieve that goal with less risk?

[Kish]

A chance of missing, a chance of the cleric making the Concentration check to cast anyway, a chance of picking an element the cleric is warded against, doing no damage, and seeing the Mechane shredded...

[8BitNinja]

I'm wondering why V is readying actions to deal damage to disrupt casting instead. He has a 5-10% chance of missing but it results in the eventual death of the cleric. Maybe he expects Haley or Belkar will eventually achieve that goal with less risk?

See kids, this is why communication is important.

[a1chemi]

Wasn't Haley the one to blurt "giant clerics?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1056.html) Surely she's an authority, right?

Haley did blurt it out, but V repeated it.

That said, we haven't seen them cast spells after several rounds, so it's a good chance they aren't, or they're too low level to cast anything that would significantly impact V or Haley.

I would also question the use of a greataxe and bow, which clerics would not normally have proficiency with. Do they automatically get greataxe proficiency as giants?

[danielxcutter]

Giant HD gives martial proficiency. To be fair, I just learned that yesterday.

[8BitNinja]

Giant HD gives martial proficiency. To be fair, I just learned that yesterday.

Are they also proficient in giant weapons?

[danielxcutter]

Are they also proficient in giant weapons?

Uh yeah... did I miss a pun somewhere?

Nah... I mean maybe a bard, but a paladin...:smallbiggrin:

[ti'esar]

Have we ever seen anyone with a holy symbol in OOTS who wasn't a cleric of some kind? (I include druids in the "of some kind").

[hroþila]

Have we ever seen anyone with a holy symbol in OOTS who wasn't a cleric of some kind? (I include druids in the "of some kind").
Well, probably not. But we have seen people other than divine spellcasters wearing pendants that look exactly like holy symbols - namely, the browncloaks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0706.html).

[Grand Arbiter]

Have we ever seen anyone with a holy symbol in OOTS who wasn't a cleric of some kind? (I include druids in the "of some kind").


Well, probably not. But we have seen people other than divine spellcasters wearing pendants that look exactly like holy symbols - namely, the browncloaks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0706.html).
I think a few of the Sapphire Guard's paladins had holy symbols. Niu seems to have something that looks like a holy symbol in the comic that was linked.

I'd guess that the giant with the axe is a blackguard (as listed for a jarl in the monster manual).

[a1chemi]

I think a few of the Sapphire Guard's paladins had holy symbols. Niu seems to have something that looks like a holy symbol in the comic that was linked.

I'd guess that the giant with the axe is a blackguard (as listed for a jarl in the monster manual).

She didn't always wear it. That was for skeletons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0705.html). Nothing that happens in the last panel really counts.

As far as sapphire guard goes, it doesn't look like any of the non-spell casters wear one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html).

[8BitNinja]

Uh yeah... did I miss a pun somewhere?

Nah... I mean maybe a bard, but a paladin...:smallbiggrin:

I was just imitating my favorite military leader, Captain Obvious.

[dtilque]

I would also question the use of a greataxe and bow, which clerics would not normally have proficiency with. Do they automatically get greataxe proficiency as giants?

The one wielding the bow does not have a pendant, so is most likely just a bodyguard or something. Not a cleric, anyway.


Well, probably not. But we have seen people other than divine spellcasters wearing pendants that look exactly like holy symbols - namely, the browncloaks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0706.html).

What are those browncloaks, then? I always assumed they were low level clerics.

[ti'esar]

Pretty sure browncloaks are arcane casters.

[hamishspence]

What are those browncloaks, then? I always assumed they were low level clerics.

Low level wizards, sorcerers or bards?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dancingLights.htm

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0512.html


Haley says "wizard" at least.

[Kish]

Haley called this one a wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0512.html), and as hamishspence pointed out, Dancing Lights isn't a cleric spell (nor would any domain grant it, since domains don't have orisons).

[8BitNinja]

Low level wizards, sorcerers or bards?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dancingLights.htm

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0512.html


Haley says "wizard" at least.

What level spell is dancing knights?

[Aeson]

What level spell is dancing knights?
Zero, at least on the bard and sorcerer/wizard lists.

[Kish]

Same level as Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell.

[Peelee]

Same level as Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell.

Man, Dancing Knights sounds really underpowered. You'd think they'd at least get access to Dancing Wights.

[Shining Wrath]

Dancing Knights can only be cast if you have the Very Silly Domain granted to clerics of Monty Python.

https://youtu.be/q4tWBILtrSU

I am now considering homebrewing this for 5e.

[JumboWheat01]

Dancing Knights can only be cast if you have the Very Silly Domain granted to clerics of Monty Python.

https://youtu.be/q4tWBILtrSU

I am now considering homebrewing this for 5e.

My DM would totally let that slide. Cleric of Monty Python... oh, the fun we could have...

[zimmerwald1915]

My DM would totally let that slide. Cleric of Monty Python... oh, the fun we could have...
How fun is it, really, making Graham Chapman spin in his grave? I mean, you can't even watch!

[ackmondual]

Smart move on V's part in my book. Getting the ship through is the important part.

So he didn't have the time/actions to both attack and counter spell?

[Peelee]

So he didn't have the time/actions to both attack and counter spell?

An attack is an action. Casting a spell (or counterspell) is also an action. V only gets one action per round (and one move action which, as it sounds, can only be spent moving). The cleric giant also gets one action per round (and one move action). V is effectively neutralizing the cleric giant.

[Keltest]

So he didn't have the time/actions to both attack and counter spell?

Counterspelling was his action for that round. He could have spoken, conceivably, but besides the 'Talking is a free action" joke being done to death and back, V has been known to be so verbose as to break that rule.

[Jasdoif]

So he didn't have the time/actions to both attack and counter spell?To expand on what Peelee and Keltest already said, to counterspell you need to ready an action for when the enemy caster starts casts a spell, which takes your standard action for the turn (leaving you unable to attack on that same turn in most cases).

It's a big part of why counterspelling isn't effective in most situations: you're giving up your chance to attack to be able to prevent a spell from being cast. And since you could use an offensive spell of your own instead of counterspelling, which would probably mess up the spell anyway....

[8BitNinja]

Dancing Knights can only be cast if you have the Very Silly Domain granted to clerics of Monty Python.

https://youtu.be/q4tWBILtrSU

I am now considering homebrewing this for 5e.

This is why you should avoid Camelot.

[JumboWheat01]

This is why you should avoid Camelot.

I think you paladins are just embarrassed by your sillier past.

[Shining Wrath]

This is why you should avoid Camelot.

It is a very silly place.

[Quibblicious]

I was just imitating my favorite military leader, Captain Obvious.

I favor General Chaos.

Q

[Reboot]

Dancing Knights can only be cast if you have the Very Silly Domain granted to clerics of Monty Python.

https://youtu.be/q4tWBILtrSU

I am now considering homebrewing this for 5e.

Clerics of Monty Python (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asUyK6JWt9U), huh?