New Barbarian options through Unearthed Arcana

[DrDinocrusher]

http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_Barbarian.pdf

Overall they look pretty fun, particularly the storm herald. I love the image of a barbarian raging in the middle of a sandstorm, or lightning striking their enemies.

[Kane0]

Looks good, theres some solid stuff in there.
Shame theres no partial caster though, a Rage Mage or shamanistic caster would be nice

[Xethik]

Rage Beyond Death seems a little too... permissive for my taste. I don't like the idea of someone truly unkillable for any amount of time.

But overall, some cool (and powerful) stuff.

[Willie the Duck]

Rage Beyond Death seems a little too... permissive for my taste. I don't like the idea of someone truly unkillable for any amount of time.

I see they didn't learn their lesson from 3e's Frenzied Berserker.

[DrDinocrusher]

Rage Beyond Death seems a little too... permissive for my taste. I don't like the idea of someone truly unkillable for any amount of time.

But overall, some cool (and powerful) stuff.

They aren't though. Since they take death saves as normal, that means if anyone hits them while they're raging they automatically fail a death save. So three hits and they're Dead if they didn't fail any saves.

[ZX6Rob]

I see they didn't learn their lesson from 3e's Frenzied Berserker.

I don't think the Frenzied Berserker was reviled because it was unkillable. As I recall, the problem was the bit where you could end up forced to attack your teammates if you were in a frenzy, and they wouldn't be able to kill you out of it.

What most T.O. peeps recommended doing was taking the Frenzied Berserker class, and then, every morning, get up before everyone else, spend 5 minutes burning through every one of your frenzies for the day, and then go about your business enjoying that sweet, sweet three-for-one return on Power Attack without worrying about being driven into a red rage and decorating the inside of the dungeon with your wizard's guts.

* * *

In terms of this, I'm really liking the Storm path. It's seriously cool and thematic, and I don't think any of these abilities are really over or under the power curve for the Barbarian paths that already exist. Zealots are cool, and I love the deathless rage ability and the power to inspire your friends by the raw fury of your holy violence. Ancestors is the least exciting to me, but I like that it's sort of the Purple Dragon Knight for Barbarians, focused almost entirely on helping your team in some way.

I have a couple of players that will probably be real excited about these paths!

[Xethik]

They aren't though. Since they take death saves as normal, that means if anyone hits them while they're raging they automatically fail a death save. So three hits and they're Dead if they didn't fail any saves.

As Willie the Duck mentioned, I'm just having flashbacks to annoying Frenzied Berserkers from 3.5. Even a couple months ago, I ran into one as a PC and was frustrated beyond belief. It doesn't matter how much hacking and slashing you do, you just have to wait for the rage to end. On an Ex ability, it also strained my suspension of disbelief. At least with this one, there is divine magic involved...

Still, I'm not really a fan.


I don't think the Frenzied Berserker was reviled because it was unkillable. As I recall, the problem was the bit where you could end up forced to attack your teammates if you were in a frenzy, and they wouldn't be able to kill you out of it.

What most T.O. peeps recommended doing was taking the Frenzied Berserker class, and then, every morning, get up before everyone else, spend 5 minutes burning through every one of your frenzies for the day, and then go about your business enjoying that sweet, sweet three-for-one return on Power Attack without worrying about being driven into a red rage and decorating the inside of the dungeon with your wizard's guts.
Yeah, from a player perspective you often didn't want frenzy. But on the DMs side of the table, it could be super frustrating and annoying for the players, unless you had a Forcecage ready.

[Arkhios]

By the hairy balls of Kord, damn it!

Now I'm sad that I rolled so badly for my Paladin of Kord (Dex 9, so he must use heavy armor to be competitive), otherwise I would talk to my DM if he could allow at least Path of the Zealot in his campaign, that's just freaking awesome!

[Foxhound438]

My thoughts:

Ancestral Guardian: Man, this one really feels like Mearls came and saw the thread on classes and tanking abilities. Yes, the one that was an absolute s*** show.

Despite that, I do like it. First feature forces one thing to fight you or be punished steeply, at the cost of your bonus action. Looks like a featless SnB barbarian would excel here. Second ability allows you to forgo your resistance for a stint to give it to an ally, so more "team tanking". 10th level is nothing particularly great for a dedicated tank, but it is neat and potentially very good. Final feature is more punishment for things not fighting you, in the form of damage on your reaction.

Overall, it brings in all the benefits of sentinel without needing a feat for it. That basically means max str and con with a side order of resilient wis for me, but I think the best application is for featless games. Gets a major roll filled and does a great job of it.


Next is what I think will be the closest thing to a caster barbarian we are going to get. Similar to totem barb in that there's multiple options per level, but different that you're locked into one path. Honestly, that basically means you get 3 paths for the price of 1, so I'm game.

The abilities of desert and tundra are pretty close to mirrors of each other- weak AOE DOT, followed by a damage resistance, followed by a terrain gum-up ability. The one that stands out to me is coast, since its first ability is a single target, medium damage ability, allowing you to at least focus fire with yourself. Don't get me wrong, the AOE has potential for very high value, but with the only DM that runs for me anymore, it's a lot more common to have one big thing in a fight. Anyways, level 6 is another damage resistance, 10 is a sharing is caring feature, and 14 gets you the ability to knock things prone on a hit- think tripping attack, except always on. You wouldn't care as much, thanks to reckless attack, but your friends in melee will surely thank you.

Overall, it looks to me like a decent pure damage build option- the actionless damage boost works great for a build that already plans to go PAM+GWM, especially if they don't care much about the full-spectrum damage resistance of bear totem. The boost comes early, and since it's action-free to use, it stays good across all levels.


Finally, the zealot path- AKA Barbaladin, without the multiclassing.

The strangest thing about this one is that the first feature is pretty much a repeat of the storm barb's feature, but with less range and more damage- that hits your friends... At max level, its damage is about on par with the storm barb's single target lightning option, so nothing to scoff at. This path also gets the benefit of materials free revival at third level, so if you do go down, you won't owe anyone a 300GP diamond. 6th level gets you free success on a save, but ends rage. Very good against hard control, but very bad if you have a pile of mooks hitting you right after. I really like that feature, as it brings in some resource management that Barb normally doesn't have to deal with. 10th level gives you the ability to give your team advantage, but costs you your whole turn- meaning, if nothing hits you for that round, your rage ends- at least until 15th level. Finally, the 14th level feature gives you that good old fashioned dead man flailing we all know and love from pathfinder barbs. At a reduced cost, too, thanks to that ribbon from the start.

Overall, another solid pure damage build option, for the same reasons as the previous one. The defensive boosts of free save success combined with post-0 hp action probably put this one head-and-shoulders above the storm barb, unless your whole team likes to be in on the melee, since the damage boost here hits your friends.

Edit: so where do these sit compared to already published options? I'd say the first is a bit weaker than totem or battle rager on its own, but of course the team play potential puts it in a good place overall. The latter two on the other hand, give you free, nigh unconditional damage that other paths can't get, at the cost of defense compared to bear barb (which is the most popular, as far as I can see). Storm barb seems to be pretty well balanced, giving you a ton of value out the gate and tapering off in later levels, while zealot barb seems to give a ton of value at every turn, putting it as probably the best path, at least in a vacuum. Not as cool thematically as some others, but the mechanical features are, in totality, more value than any other path.

[Willie the Duck]

I don't think the Frenzied Berserker was reviled because it was unkillable. As I recall, the problem was the bit where you could end up forced to attack your teammates if you were in a frenzy, and they wouldn't be able to kill you out of it.

Killing your friends certainly was what made it unpopular. The unkillable part was, however, a really bad mechanic that had all sorts of really annoying downstream issues. This too I see as just being a mess. DrDinocrusher correctly points out that you can still kill them, but they still get to act until their rage ends and no amount of damage is going to change that.

[RickAllison]

The Zealot seems... Insane. I am taking it for an NPC group, however; I love the image of these unkillable warriors continually barreling toward the party. I look forward to describing how they decapitate him, yet he keeps on swinging...

I really like the Ancestral Barbarian archetype, it seems to add some useful features that complement the barb chassis well. I think the Storm Herald is quite cool, but it doesn't add much until level 14. Storms just seem to be adding in even less incentive for people to perpetuate the barbarian's Rage, which is a major problem of the chassis. Meanwhile the other two add abilities that make taking down the barbarian a far more reasonable choice.

[Kalashak]

They aren't though. Since they take death saves as normal, that means if anyone hits them while they're raging they automatically fail a death save. So three hits and they're Dead if they didn't fail any saves.
They don't die from death saves until their rage ends though

[Regitnui]

I like these. I can especially see the Fury (Eberron goddess) sponsoring the Fury (path) and the Lhazaar Prince Mika Rockface is certainly a Storm barbarian.

[CursedRhubarb]

The Zealot looks like a great class for a recurring enemy the PCs have to face. Fighting on after death looks very scary, especially with the lack of materials needed to return them to life. I foresee many a fight where the Zealot is at 3 failed death saves and still going, only to be hit with a CC effect and collapse. Oddly enough this could be fun to let the Zealot run in and smash away then have the party caster use True Polymorph, giving them new HP until they can get to a healer and then using Dispel Magic to turn them normal, in which they promptly fall over dead only to be revived momentarily. 😁

[DrDinocrusher]

They don't die from death saves until their rage ends though

This is true but I think it's a fair trade since once they fail their three saves they can't be healed. The real problem (if it is one, I think this is flavorful and quite cool personally - and hardly more broken compared to some of the other 14th level capstones such as Illusory Reality) is that they can get healing every turn or so to perpetually keep going via something like healing word.

[Theodoxus]

Sea seems OP to me compared to Desert or Arctic... Not just the single target damage that way outstrips 2+(level)/4) (max 7 points - scary!) AoE, but the waterbreathing? For friends within 10' at 10th? That's better than ignoring hot or cold environments for a minute...

I still far prefer the Iron Juggernaut presented on these very boards over anything offered up in the UA.

[RickAllison]

Sea seems OP to me compared to Desert or Arctic... Not just the single target damage that way outstrips 2+(level)/4) (max 7 points - scary!) AoE, but the waterbreathing? For friends within 10' at 10th? That's better than ignoring hot or cold environments for a minute...

I still far prefer the Iron Juggernaut presented on these very boards over anything offered up in the UA.

Indeed, but this is the first time they have tackled barbarian for the UA. This could well be a casting of the nets where they are seeing where the fish are biting. I mean what the player base wants out of barbarians.

I want to go fishing...

[mephnick]

How many groups even track effects from hot and cold environments? I've never played in a group that didn't handwave having a jacket.

[JumboWheat01]

I like the Ancestor option, it gives me the idea and opinion of an honorable barbarian, fighting for his tribe, WITH his tribe, in a way.

I also love the IDEA of the Zealot option, but it comes off as a little too dangerous and powerful.

[MrStabby]

Personally I don't like that they are so rage focused. I would prefer a couple more abilities that worked whilst not in a rage.

Also the auras look a bit annoying. Lots of tracking of small amounts of damage that might, but probably won't make a difference in a lot of fights.

On the plus side they have some great themes to go away and do a better job on.

[pwykersotz]

I like a lot of this, but I am utterly confounded by the water breathing/environment adaptability that lasts during rage only and at a short distance. How is that helpful in the slightest? I mean, sure, if the party is catching hypothermia in the mountains because of an errant teleport and is attacked by a horde of yeti, the cold weather protection during combat is a bit useful. But that is an incredibly niche situation.

I'd rather have it be a once to thrice a rest thing where the Barbarian channels the spirits and gives it for Concentration up to 10 minutes or something, and make it sustainable during rage, not dependent upon rage.

Also, I just remembered that resistance to the damage type already provides the environmental adaptability. So the second effect on tundra and desert is meaningless.

[Tanarii]

Way to kill a raging zealot is to wait until he's down below 0, hit him a few times so he's failed three death saves, then hit him with something that means he won't be able to attack. No more rage, dead zealot. Of course if he fails the save he can always end the rage prematurely ... uh, suicidally I mean. :smallamused:


Ancestral Guardian: Man, this one really feels like Mearls came and saw the thread on classes and tanking abilities. Yes, the one that was an absolute s*** show.
as someone who participated (and sadly, therefor almost certainly encouraged) said **** show, that was my first thought too. :smallbiggrin:

[Osrogue]

Way to kill a raging zealot is to wait until he's down below 0, hit him a few times so he's failed three death saves, then hit him with something that means he won't be able to attack. No more rage, dead zealot. Of course if he fails the save he can always end the rage prematurely ... uh, suicidally I mean. :smallamused:

as someone who participated (and sadly, therefor almost certainly encouraged) said **** show, that was my first thought too. :smallbiggrin:

Except next level he gets persostent rage, I think.

[Draco4472]

A Storm Herald/Tempest Domian Cleric looks like an awesome build.

[Belac93]

Path of the Ancestral Guardian
Fluff: Overlaps a bit with the totem warrior, but I quite enjoy the new option.
Ancestral Protectors: Very nice ability for any tank. Gives you a use for your bonus action as well. Right off the bat shows that this subclass is very focused on defence.
Ancestral Shield: A cool ability, allowing you to give up your defence in exchange for protecting an ally. I could see this being very useful if you go directly after the attacking opponent.
Consult the Spirits: An ok ability, but lackluster for a level 10. It gets a pass though, because it lets barbarians actually be useful in situations which require knowledge.
Vengeful Ancestors: A decent source of damage, which is also unblockable, and pretty much nothing will resist it. A note that this overlaps with Ancestral Shield, using your reaction.

Path of the Storm Herald
Fluff: I loved this subclass in 4e. I also really like how they differentiated between the different types of storms (I'm looking at you, Tempest Domain!). Also, three subclasses in 1! An interesting this about this is that unlike totem warrior, you cannot mix and match the benefits.
Storm of Fury: An aura is cool. Desert is probably weaker than Tundra, as fire is more commonly resisted than ice. Sea is different, dealing an average of twice as much damage (and half damage on a miss), but it is only single target. Sea is the right choice if you expect to be fighting a lot of bosses, but I would go for the other two against large groups of minions.
Storm Soul: Gives resistance to your chosen damage type, and the ability to survive in your chosen environment. Sea is the right choice in a game with lots of water, but fire and cold are probably more common damage types.
Shield of the Storm: Quite good, but the water breathing and resistance to elements only during rage is weird.
Raging Storm: Desert makes you unbelievably sticky against anything with low strength. As a barbarian, you are probably going to be annoyed by skirmishers, so this is perfect. Sea gives an great bonus. It is similar to the wolf, but does not take your bonus action or have a size restriction. It does have the penalty of allowing them a strength check, however. Tundra makes it harder for your enemies to move, effectively reducing everything to half speed while within 10 feet of you. Very nice, and it would be perfect if you need to block off a 15 foot wide hallway.

Path of the Zealot
Fluff: Quite awesome. I really like the idea of a raging holy warrior. Steps on the paladins toes a little, however.
Divine Fury: If you can surround yourself in low-CR opponents, this is great. You have the possibility to take out a couple of goblins without even attacking them. Not a ton of damage, but at high levels, an unblockable 1d6+8 damage to everything within 5 feet of you isn't bad.
Warrior of the Gods: Jeez. Most of the time, this is a cash saver. However, this means that with a dedicated cleric, you could be revivified as many times as they have spell slots. Combine with Aura of Vitality, it's even better. Quite a good ability
Zealous Focus: Succeed on a saving throw, but end your rage. You won't use this much, but you will be happy to have it when you do. Makes level 20 barbarians almost immune to traps.
Zealous Presence: Quite a good ability. However, since you cannot attack on the turn you use it, it will probably never be used while raging. And it requires a long rest before it can be used again. A very niche ability in an otherwise strong subclass.
Rage Beyond Death: Very, very, very powerful. At level 20, you have unlimited rages that do not end unless you want them to. So, you will be immune to dying until you have to sleep. As a tough barbarian, that could be a long time.


Nice unearthed arcana, it's nice to see barbarians getting some love.

[Addaran]

Fluff wise, they are all pretty fun.

For the herald of the storm, only half the powers mention it works while raging. Most probably an oversight (raging storm being always available doesn't make sense). But Storm Soul would be nice to have always on, even when you aren't raging. It's just one damage type, and not even the s/l/b so it shouldn't cause too much problems and it would give a use for the environmental immunities (not sure it make sense for underwater breathing though...) The barbarian take can just stay all day long under the sun in the desert without protection or the barbarian that can endure the snow storm without much clothes give a nice feel.

Zealot Presence doesn't mention Raging. Seems it would be a good opening move and on your second turn you then rage. Would also help you not lose rage if you can't reach the enemy on the first turn.

[Tanarii]

Except next level he gets persostent rage, I think.
/facepalm he sure does.
Guess you have to just keep him locked down as best you can for a minute.

[Addaran]

I don't think persistent rage would work for Zealous Focus. It's an even more specific rule then an ability all the barbarians get. The intent seems to be that you don't stop raging for lack of attack or because the 1 minute is up.

[Tanarii]

I don't think persistent rage would work for Zealous Focus. It's an even more specific rule then an ability all the barbarians get. The intent seems to be that you don't stop raging for lack of attack or because the 1 minute is up.That was in reference to the Rage Beyond Death ability they get at level 14.

[NecroDancer]

When I saw rage beyond death I instantly thought of the barbarian's ghost coming back to punch the person who ho killed it.

[Occasional Sage]

Note that Rage Beyond Death does not stop instant death from massive damage.

[MasterMercury]

Where are you getting that these abilities only happen during a rage?
"your link to the power of the storm grants you additional abilities based on the environment you chose at 3rd level"
I would rule that you always have "your link to the power", and those these abilities are always on. I could be wrong, but it seems that way. Makes the second part more useful. Extreme temps/water breathing for a minute is not helpful. Always on is awesome, and definitely not OP

Edit: mixed up storm soul and shield. Yeah, it is weird.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Can a Zealot 14 / Cleric 6 Revivify themselves?

[MasterMercury]

Can a Zealot 14 / Cleric 6 Revivify themselves?

Can't cast spell while raging. Great idea though.
Bandit: "You're dead"
Zealot: "No I'm not"

Also, does anyone else feel like the desert and tundra options are pretty much the same?

[Vaz]

Where are you getting that these abilities only happen during a rage?
"your link to the power of the storm grants you additional abilities based on the environment you chose at 3rd level"
I would rule that you always have "your link to the power", and those these abilities are always on. I could be wrong, but it seems that way. Makes the second part more useful. Extreme temps/water breathing for a minute is not helpful. Always on is awesome, and definitely not OP

Storm of Fury; "While Raging, you emanate an aura..."
Storm Soul; No contention, always on
Shield of the Storm; "While you are raging, allies within your aura..."
Raging Storm; "Any enemy that attempts to move... within your aura"/"Any creature within your aura"/"The area within your aura"

Pretty obvious here. And TIL that "half" is 3/4.

[MasterMercury]

Storm of Fury; "While Raging, you emanate an aura..."
Storm Soul; No contention, always on
Shield of the Storm; "While you are raging, allies within your aura..."
Raging Storm; "Any enemy that attempts to move... within your aura"/"Any creature within your aura"/"The area within your aura"

Pretty obvious here. And TIL that "half" is 3/4.

Yeah, I mixed up Soul and Shield. My bad

[Sigreid]

I like a lot of this, but I am utterly confounded by the water breathing/environment adaptability that lasts during rage only and at a short distance. How is that helpful in the slightest? I mean, sure, if the party is catching hypothermia in the mountains because of an errant teleport and is attacked by a horde of yeti, the cold weather protection during combat is a bit useful. But that is an incredibly niche situation.

I'd rather have it be a once to thrice a rest thing where the Barbarian channels the spirits and gives it for Concentration up to 10 minutes or something, and make it sustainable during rage, not dependent upon rage.

Also, I just remembered that resistance to the damage type already provides the environmental adaptability. So the second effect on tundra and desert is meaningless.

From reading it the abilities and resistance you are talking about are always on. Similar to the bear totem's increased carrying capacity.

[MasterMercury]

From reading it the abilities and resistance you are talking about are always on. Similar to the bear totem's increased carrying capacity.

It's always on for you, but at 10th level you can share it while raging. Which is not all that useful.

The fact the resistance to cold/fire automatically makes you immune to extreme temperatures, thus making storm even more of a better choice, is also annoying.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Can't cast spell while raging. Great idea though.
Bandit: "You're dead"
Zealot: "No I'm not"

Heh, never wanted to spellcast as a barb before, never noticed that. What about non-magical self-healing? Can a Barb 14 / Paly 1 lay on hands in the last round of combat to heal himself 1hp and reset his death saving throw count?

I think the answer should be no, but I can't see it clearly in the rules.


Also, does anyone else feel like the desert and tundra options are pretty much the same?

Not at all. Desert is way worse - it's fire damage! (/jk)

[Tanarii]

Not at all. Desert is way worse - it's fire damage! (/jk)
Yeah but it's also fire resistance.

[Kadzar]

Heh, never wanted to spellcast as a barb before, never noticed that. What about non-magical self-healing? Can a Barb 14 / Paly 1 lay on hands in the last round of combat to heal himself 1hp and reset his death saving throw count?

I think the answer should be no, but I can't see it clearly in the rules. Nothing in the rulebook says a raging paladin can't Lay on Hands himself. Also, technically, a character with the Healer feat could use an action to stabilize himself at 1 hit point, or really anyone can use a healer's kit to stabilize themselves at 0 (so, unconscious, but not dying). Keep in mind that none of these will work on a character that has failed all their death saving throws.

[mephnick]

My only problem with the Zealot and Ancestor stuff is that they're a bit rage dependent. The two PHB paths and Storm have half their abilities dependent on rage, while Zealot and Ancestor have 3/4 of their path abilities dependent on rage. Doesn't seem like a big deal, but I don't like most of my path abilities being non-options for half the day.

Edit: My bad, Zealot is actually 3/5 because they have an extra level 3 ability.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Nothing in the rulebook says a raging paladin can't Lay on Hands himself. Also, technically, a character with the Healer feat could use an action to stabilize himself at 1 hit point, or really anyone can use a healer's kit to stabilize themselves at 0 (so, unconscious, but not dying). Keep in mind that none of these will work on a character that has failed all their death saving throws.

Are you sure? The only thing failing all three saving throws does is it kills you. But this says you don't die until the rage ends. Meanwhile, the three failed saves seem to be doing nothing, and you still have 0hp the can be raised to 1hp, with healing, clearing away the three failures. Unless I'm missing something on that page in the PHB.

I agree with you on RAI, but since this is just UA, I think it's worth really trying to see if there's that gap in the RAW to patch before any eventual final printing.

Regardless, it's a very cool kit.

[Foxhound438]

since this is just UA, I think it's worth really trying to see if there's that gap in the RAW to patch before any eventual final printing.

Agreed. And honestly, I think the "stay alive while raging despite failing 3 death saves" bit should just be thrown out- it's above and beyond the nominal power level of 5e to be immortal for a full minute. Not to say that power creep won't, or even shouldn't happen, but this is an escalation of force from firecrackers to howitzers.

[Zalabim]

Except next level he gets persostent rage, I think.


/facepalm he sure does.
Guess you have to just keep him locked down as best you can for a minute.
Linking these two together, maybe use the Sleep spell?

I agree with you on RAI, but since this is just UA, I think it's worth really trying to see if there's that gap in the RAW to patch before any eventual final printing.
It definitely needs clearer wording to make it clear exactly how it's supposed to work, if they keep the ability at all. I do like that it's combined with the GP-free raise ability earlier though.

[Arkhios]

Linking these two together, maybe use the Sleep spell?

Problem with sleep against barbarian is that sleep affects creatures depending on their remaining hit points, and barbarians have "a-plenty" to begin with :D

[Zalabim]

Problem with sleep against barbarian is that sleep affects creatures depending on their remaining hit points, and barbarians have "a-plenty" to begin with :D

Normally that is a problem, but when the question is how to contain a raging Zealot that's already dead, the number of HP they have must be 0. That makes the question more like "How many Zealots have you killed with the Sleep spell today?"

[Arkhios]

Normally that is a problem, but when the question is how to contain a raging Zealot that's already dead, the number of HP they have must be 0. That makes the question more like "How many Zealots have you killed with the Sleep spell today?"

Ah, good point.

[Ralanr]

First off: freaking finally we get some Barbarian stuff.

I only really like the primal magic one since I'm a sucker for battle auras. But sadly none of these seem to beat the level 3 powerspike of bear totem.

[Shining Wrath]

Regarding Zealots - A class feature where you don't drop when you reach 0 HP, in a front-line melee class, almost guarantees that you'll get hit several times after reaching 0 HP, fail all those Death saves, and die the moment your rage ends. If your party doesn't have access to Revivify yet - or your party doesn't have anyone who can cast it at all (Cleric, Paladin) - this means you are going to be rolling a new character pretty quickly, or not use your main class feature very often. It's a worse trade-off than Frenzy barbarian, which says something. Not being able to rage when there's a chance you'll be reduced to 0 HP cripples rage....

As was pointed out upstream, these guys are excellent NPC fodder. Charge into battle and keep coming as they are hacked apart - even a critical hit doesn't stop them.

[Willie the Duck]

Are you sure? The only thing failing all three saving throws does is it kills you. But this says you don't die until the rage ends. Meanwhile, the three failed saves seem to be doing nothing, and you still have 0hp the can be raised to 1hp, with healing, clearing away the three failures. Unless I'm missing something on that page in the PHB.

Well, the PHB doesn't account for what happens if you get healed back to 1 pt. if it occurs after 3 failures,* because previously that would have been casting cures on a corpse.

*Even if it does have a sweeping statement about wiping away "all failures" or something, that was written before this potential situation came up. So I would definitely call it a rule gap.

[MinotaurWarrior]

If your party doesn't have access to Revivify yet - or your party doesn't have anyone who can cast it at all (Cleric, Paladin) - this means you are going to be rolling a new character pretty quickly, or not use your main class feature very often.

What party doesn't have revivify at 14?

Anyway, on the topic of cheese. A group of three Zealot-14s can deal (10.5*3*10=)315 damage just by standing next to a guy for the duration of their rage. Per the DMG, that's the upper limit of a CR 16 monster. So, with a single cleric added, they can take on 5 CR 16 monsters per day with pretty much no risk, without even using weapon attacks.

I want the idea of these guys to work, but I don't think it does, currently.


Well, the PHB doesn't account for what happens if you get healed back to 1 pt. if it occurs after 3 failures,* because previously that would have been casting cures on a corpse.

*Even if it does have a sweeping statement about wiping away "all failures" or something, that was written before this potential situation came up. So I would definitely call it a rule gap.

Yeah, I just think that if they republish an improved version of the zealot, they should definitively close that gap in the rule block that introduces it. (assuming that the gap really exists, and I'm not just bad at reading).

[Satsujinki]

A thing that I'm kinda not convinced... the +2 rage damage remains and adds to all eventual+ of these paths, right?

[MinotaurWarrior]

A thing that I'm kinda not convinced... the +2 rage damage remains and adds to all eventual+ of these paths, right?

Nope. Well, except for Raging Storm: Sea, which is itself just a boost to strength based weapon attacks.


When you make a melee weapon attack using Strength, you gain a bonus to the damage roll ...

[Temperjoke]

Interesting thought on the Ancestral Guardian, if your current barbarian had your previous characters as ancestors, they could be summoned as amusing flavor for the spell, especially if your current character is traveling with a longer-lived elf who might have known the other characters.

[Cl0001]

I like them. But the last one didn't seem great to me. The 6th level bonus of making a St and ending a rage seems like a bad tradeoff. Especially when you can't rage again because of it. The final ability of that also seems too powerful.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I like them. But the last one didn't seem great to me. The 6th level bonus of making a St and ending a rage seems like a bad tradeoff. Especially when you can't rage again because of it. The final ability of that also seems too powerful.

It's not going to come up all the time, but I like it. If you're going 15-14-15-8-8-10 then sometimes you're going to get hit by a Save-or-Suck effect that would otherwise take you out of the fight, like an illithid. Losing rage is bad, but it's better than being taken out of a fight.

Also, it's interesting to note that all of the level 6 options here are much more combat oriented than the PHB variants. The only real exploration option I see here is Sea Storm Herald 6.

[Rysto]

Not being able to rage when there's a chance you'll be reduced to 0 HP cripples rage....

Worst case scenario, you drink a healing potion before three failed death saves. Your rage would end (until Persistent Rage at level 15), but you'll survive.

[Tanarii]

Regarding Zealots - A class feature where you don't drop when you reach 0 HP, in a front-line melee class, almost guarantees that you'll get hit several times after reaching 0 HP, fail all those Death saves, and die the moment your rage ends. If your party doesn't have access to Revivify yet - or your party doesn't have anyone who can cast it at all (Cleric, Paladin) - this means you are going to be rolling a new character pretty quickly, or not use your main class feature very often. It's a worse trade-off than Frenzy barbarian, which says something. Not being able to rage when there's a chance you'll be reduced to 0 HP cripples rage...I guess no one in your campaign ever has access to a Cleric to cast a Raise Dead? Shouldn't be hard given it won't cost any material components.

[mephnick]

I guess no one in your campaign ever has access to a Cleric to cast a Raise Dead? Shouldn't be hard given it won't cost any material components.

Ugh. I mean, you're right, but treating death as a simple resource tax is the worst part of D&D.

[Tanarii]

Ugh. I mean, you're right, but treating death as a simple resource tax is the worst part of D&D.sure, it is if you don't want it to be that. If you're campaign doesn't allow access to these spells because you don't want that, then his analysis is fair.

[LordVonDerp]

This is true but I think it's a fair trade since once they fail their three saves they can't be healed.

Where does it say that?

[pwykersotz]

Where does it say that?

PHB 197. Being at 0hp can be healed. Being dead requires a life restoring spell. If you fail three death saves, you're dead. The Zealot path holds delays that death for your rage duration, but contains no provisions for healing hp to undo the death effect.

[LordVonDerp]

PHB 197. Being at 0hp can be healed. Being dead requires a life restoring spell. If you fail three death saves, you're dead. The Zealot path holds delays that death for your rage duration, but contains no provisions for healing hp to undo the death effect.
It says you don't die until your rage ends.

[Sneak Dog]

They're all fun pieces, but none address the part where all a player does each turn is the same: say "I hit X".
Well, one does by allowing you to transfer resistance. It's a neat little thing.

[eastmabl]

It says you don't die until your rage ends.

It also says that you suffer all the normal effects of taking damage while at 0 hp.

Ergo, if you fail three death saving throws (or are hit three times), you're dead and cannot be healed. Your body just hasn't realized until the raging ends.

I don't think that this is the intention of the designers, but it is the way they wrote it.

***

Anybody have a read on how the desert/tundra rage abilities are calculated?

Is it:

(2 + barbarian level)/4?
2 + (barbarian level/4)?


Maybe it's my close read, but it's unclear.

[MasterMercury]

***

Anybody have a read on how the desert/tundra rage abilities are calculated?

Is it:

(2 + barbarian level)/4?
2 + (barbarian level/4)?


Maybe it's my close read, but it's unclear.

I would assume the latter.

[Foxhound438]

First off: freaking finally we get some Barbarian stuff.

I only really like the primal magic one since I'm a sucker for battle auras. But sadly none of these seem to beat the level 3 powerspike of bear totem.

I'd say the free damage is at least as good as bear totem, especially in games where not everything is throwing assorted damage types at you. In any given fight, if it happens to just be a big guy and his friends who all have swords, bear totem is a dead feature, while the damage from the aura is useful in any situation that the enemy isn't immune to the damage.

[LordVonDerp]

It also says that you suffer all the normal effects of taking damage while at 0 hp.

Ergo, if you fail three death saving throws (or are hit three times), you're dead and cannot be healed. Your body just hasn't realized until the raging ends.

I don't think that this is the intention of the designers, but it is the way they wrote it.

Idk what the designers meant either, but if you're not dead yet then you're not dead.




Anybody have a read on how the desert/tundra rage abilities are calculated?

Is it:

(2 + barbarian level)/4?
2 + (barbarian level/4)?


Maybe it's my close read, but it's unclear.
2 + blvl / 4
The second one is how math works in the event it's unclear.

[Ralanr]

I'd say the free damage is at least as good as bear totem, especially in games where not everything is throwing assorted damage types at you. In any given fight, if it happens to just be a big guy and his friends who all have swords, bear totem is a dead feature, while the damage from the aura is useful in any situation that the enemy isn't immune to the damage.

You have a point. So they are both very generalized and thus useful.

[Grey Watcher]

I guess no one in your campaign ever has access to a Cleric to cast a Raise Dead? Shouldn't be hard given it won't cost any material components.


Ugh. I mean, you're right, but treating death as a simple resource tax is the worst part of D&D.


sure, it is if you don't want it to be that. If you're campaign doesn't allow access to these spells because you don't want that, then his analysis is fair.

To me, it feels like a throwback to 3E design ideas, which assumed you had a very specific party makeup (ie Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard) and any variation from that model was expected to be able to do everything that team could do.

One thing I really do like about 5E is that you don't feel beholden to that stock party anymore. A game is perfectly viable if everyone's a Wizard, or if there are no casting classes. Yes, you're going to approach problems differently than if you have the classic Well-Rounded Party, but there isn't the implicit assumption that you're doing D&D "wrong" if your group doesn't fit that mold.

This starts to tilt back towards that idea, since it's clearly built on the idea that there's gonna be someone who can raise the dead handy. I like the idea that your righteous fury enables you to ignore lethal wounds until it subsides, but it needs to be implemented such that it's not outright suicidal to use.


It also says that you suffer all the normal effects of taking damage while at 0 hp.

Ergo, if you fail three death saving throws (or are hit three times), you're dead and cannot be healed. Your body just hasn't realized until the raging ends.

I don't think that this is the intention of the designers, but it is the way they wrote it.

Really? It reads the other way to me:


However, if you would die due to failing death saving throws, you don’t die until your rage ends.

It explicitly says that if you would die (implying that you haven't yet, despite conditions that would normally lead to that), you do not until the correct condition is met (ie your rage ends). It really seems to be that a super-strict reading of this ability says that yes, you can in fact be healed normally before your rage ends, no matter how many death saves you've failed. (From a fluff perspective, I like your interpretation better, but it is harsher and therefore reinforces the "using this ability is suicide" problem.)


Anybody have a read on how the desert/tundra rage abilities are calculated?

Is it:

(2 + barbarian level)/4?
2 + (barbarian level/4)?


Maybe it's my close read, but it's unclear.


I would assume the latter.

Funny, my impression had been the former. Though the latter would be consistent with how these sorts of things are calculated: Proficiency is (Round Down((Level-1)/4)) + 2. Honestly, for simplicity's sake, I would've just said it equals your proficiency bonus and been done with it. If a Druid/Barbarian's cantrips scale with her overall level, not her Druid level, I don't see why her Storm Aura should take the other tack.

[GlenSmash!]

I would've just said it equals your proficiency bonus and been done with it. If a Druid/Barbarian's cantrips scale with her overall level, not her Druid level, I don't see why her Storm Aura should take the other tack.

Yeah, I think this was on purpose to prevent that type of multiclassing shenanigans. I dislike doing extra math so I would just make it equal to proficiency as well. Then again I and my players mostly play single classed characters so it's not much of an issue.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Yeah, I think this was on purpose to prevent that type of multiclassing shenanigans. I dislike doing extra math so I would just make it equal to proficiency as well. Then again I and my players mostly play single classed characters so it's not much of an issue.

While I think you're right that Barb is specified to deter dips, I also think that the number matters. 2 + (1/2lvl) is higher than a proficiency bonus

[Foxhound438]

2 + blvl / 4
The second one is how math works in the event it's unclear.

Indeed, standard order of operations

It would be a lot more clear if it said "2 plus one quarter of your barb level"

[Tanarii]

To me, it feels like a throwback to 3E design ideas, which assumed you had a very specific party makeup (ie Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard) and any variation from that model was expected to be able to do everything that team could do.

You don't need a cleric in the party. You just need to be able to get to one within 10 days. Effectivley an unlimited time if someone has the Gentle Repose ritual.

You won't be back in the immediate adventure but that's a given for any character death if you die without a Cleric or very high level Paladin with Revivify anyway.

Maybe it's because I run a high lethality campaign, but I see the lack of having Revivify in the party already meaning someone, or often multiple someones, out for the current session and need their body taken back to a Cleric regardless. /shrug

[Occasional Sage]

At 3rd level, your soul is marked for endless battle.
If a spell would have the sole effect of restoring
you to life (but not undeath), the caster does not
need material components to cast the spell on you.
Emphasis mine.

Does this mean that Raise Dead will require a material component if you were also poisoned, say?

[SharkForce]

At 3rd level, your soul is marked for endless battle.
If a spell would have the sole effect of restoring
you to life (but not undeath), the caster does not
need material components to cast the spell on you.
Emphasis mine.

Does this mean that Raise Dead will require a material component if you were also poisoned, say?

i'm not even certain raise dead can be used without a material component, it isn't particularly clear whether the other functions of the spell have to be used, or if they merely have to exist. it might be disqualified simply because the spell *can* do more than just revive you.

[Grey Watcher]

At 3rd level, your soul is marked for endless battle.
If a spell would have the sole effect of restoring
you to life (but not undeath), the caster does not
need material components to cast the spell on you.
Emphasis mine.

Does this mean that Raise Dead will require a material component if you were also poisoned, say?

I had always assumed that death ended other conditions, but now that you mention it. ...

[SillyPopeNachos]

Articles like these are why I write and re-write classes and archetypes for my campaigns. Extending damage resistance to allys is another patchwork class feature to excuse WOTC from bringing the Warlord into 5, much like Oath of the Crown, Battle Master, Mastermind, PDK, etc. Not dropping when falling to 0 is beyond the power scale of 5e, and did we really need another pseudo-caster barbarian?