Can two 12th-level wizards defend against an adult gold dragon? [Archive]

Eldariel

2016-11-07, 03:42 PM

Defense is pretty easy; the Dragon's attack options are something a level 12 Wizard can certainly ward against and we're talking characters with Contingency, Teleport, Polymorph, etc. available. It's probably reasonable to expect that the Wizards have Greater Spell Penetration in Core too which enables SoD bombardment; they aren't individually likely to work but if the Dragon can't hit you, you can overcome the odds through sheer numbers of castings. That's a crude approach though. More efficient, well, here we come to the level of power in use. Planar Binding? Yeah, a couple of Glabrezus can easily defeat an Adult Gold in conjunction with two Wizards ripping down its magic and preventing it from escaping with stuff like Solid Fog/Wall of Force/etc. (though it might have feats to prevent stalling, they'll still restrict its movement). The usual Shrunk Item/Explosive Runes bombs are of course rather efficient with preparation. Minor/Major Creation on a carrier for dousing it in poison would be another brute force option that has a chance at working. Other than that, getting hordes of underlings and Polymorphing them into something brutal might be workable. In Core, it doesn't have a good defense against Touch Attacks so it can be bombarded with stuff like Enervation, Ray of Exhaustion and company to severely debuff it and limit its options, but those are fairly short range and it can use its speed to good advantage. Wizards can match its speed with either Polymorphing into Dragon-forms or using Phantom Steeds, but both make defensive posturing much more difficult, and Phantom Steeds are like to go down in the first breath weapon.

Outside core, both get a good bunch of toys. A bogstandard Adult Gold Dragon only has 3rd level spells (Loredrake has 4ths); however, that's enough for Scintillating Scales, Mage Armor, Blood Wind, etc. which makes it much more dangerous at range and much harder to kill. However, its caster level is even at best around 11-13 and our Wizards can have very high Dispel-checks should they want to so the buffs are eminently nukeable, and outside Core there are many extremely powerful mid level combat spells like Celerity, Shivering Touch, etc. that make a Dragon victory with direct tactics from both sides highly unlikely. Out of Cores, the Wizards also get massive improvements to their Animate Dead in the option of Animating dead Dragons into Zombie Dragons which has many, many impressive implications.

Note, Wizards have the advantage in terms of knowledge and mobility; a Dragon can not match Teleport/Contact Other Plane/etc. Thus, the Dragon's best chance is in a quick, direct confrontation with as little preparation time as possible. If it's forced off once, I'd expect the casters are extremely likely to win.

Troacctid

2016-11-07, 04:51 PM

Hide from dragons makes you undetectable to dragons. So there's that.

Jon_Dahl

2016-11-08, 07:51 AM

Yeah, a couple of Glabrezus can easily defeat an Adult Gold in conjunction with two Wizards ripping down its magic and preventing it from escaping with stuff like Solid Fog/Wall of Force/etc. .

How do you use Glabrezus in a wizard's tower? Maybe we have a different idea of these towers.

Inevitability

2016-11-08, 08:00 AM

How do you use Glabrezus in a wizard's tower? Maybe we have a different idea of these towers.

Is anything preventing you from, say, going outside the tower?

Darrin

2016-11-08, 08:51 AM

Is anything preventing you from, say, going outside the tower?

Well, that pretty much ruins the whole idea of having a tower now, doesn't it?

I considered starting with acid fog + scroll of forcecage, but the dragon likely can cast dimension door. Three maximized orbs of cold might be simpler.

Eldariel

2016-11-08, 02:08 PM

How do you use Glabrezus in a wizard's tower? Maybe we have a different idea of these towers.

*shrug* If I were a Wizard with various types of huge servants within my ability (demons, golems, undead, you name it) I'd probably build my tower with pathways large enough to accommodate them. Plus, if the tower is magical, surely the walls/space can be morphic if needed? Either way, it doesn't really matter: If they don't fit, Bind 'em in a chamber they do fit and send them outside. They can Greater Teleport at will and they don't really have much use for the safety of the Tower in any case, so it's not like fitting is a huge deal one way or the other. There's no need to actually engage the Dragon at the Tower and indeed, to minimize damage I certainly expect the Wizards would prefer to fight elsewhere unless the Tower does some significant job of empowering their magic or something of the sort.

Same goes for the Dragon, frankly. I don't expect the Dragon to actually enter the tower; it's probably easier to just bring it down with magic/breath weapon and search the rubble. Though of course, if properly reinforced, actually bringing it down seems difficult, but certainly a better plan than waltzing in through the front door and eating up all the downsides of Poor maneuverability. For a creature whose greatest strengths are mobility and powerful ranged attacks, entering a corridor they have to squeeze through just seems dumb.

BaronDoctor

2016-11-08, 03:09 PM

Define cheese? ISV4's negation of breath weapons is just out of reach due to skill requirements (it requires 2 skills at 12 ranks, so even Primary Contact doesn't get you early entry) but between that, Dispel Magic, and any number of other tricks I'm sure you can make a wizard that could for that matter solo such a creature.

All right, let's look at it the other way: what are you defending against? A Huge creature that would slaughter them in any sort of melee. 10 Dex, 18/13/18 saves (+1 from the all day luck bonus), 23 HD, 200 foot fly speed (poor maneuverability), spells as a 7th level sorcerer, SR 23.

Clearly, the thing to target is those saves, ideally in an SR: No sort of fashion, but overwhelming power would also be acceptable.

A Globe of Invulnerability makes you immune to the dragon's spells and a Dispel Magic would eliminate the dragon's buffs.

Off the core list, a well-located Symbol of Persuasion could (50+% chance of breaching SR, more with higher CL; 20+% chance of dragon failing save, more with higher Int) get the creature agreeable temporarily, at which point you say they were interrupting and are being rude and should go home and visit another time. Not a bad trick for something to put on the tower on an off day.

A shadowcraft mage using the non-racist prerequisites would, reasonably, have illusions prepped and ready to roll because they're such a big collection of options.

A Mage of the Arcane Order could Spellpool a Shivering Touch and then stick Sudden Reach and/or Sudden Maximize on it, or come up with some other trickery.

Coidzor

2016-11-08, 03:36 PM

Two 12th level fullcasters can defeat a flying gish that only casts as a 7th level Sorcerer. Even if the dragon is a Spellhoarding Loredrake and has 9 levels of Wizard casting, two wizards outclass it.

Especially if the Wizard has time to prepare spells specifically for a dragon fight and has the advantage of being able to determine the field of battle.

Making Wizard 2 go into the fight with her pants down doesn't seem to be reflective of having a high enough intelligence to survive as a 12th level Wizard though, so I have to wonder what the hell is going on with Wizard 1.

Jon_Dahl

2016-11-08, 04:05 PM

Making Wizard 2 go into the fight with her pants down doesn't seem to be reflective of having a high enough intelligence to survive as a 12th level Wizard though, so I have to wonder what the hell is going on with Wizard 1.

Wizard 1 doesn't want to explain why the gold dragon (lawful good) is attacking him and his tower. He draws the wizard 2 into the fight and explains it all afterwards, and maybe the wizard 2 dies so no explanation will be needed. The wizard 2 will be very upset about killing a lawful good being, and will hate the wizard 1 for it for a few days, but they will eventually kiss and make up.

supersonic29

2016-11-08, 04:40 PM

Can two 12th-level wizards-

Almost surely. Level 12 is when wizards really start to leave the realm of things that are okay. I've seen plenty of solutions named already, starting with teleporting out and coming back with rudely specific spells like hide from dragons. Save or die things just about always work as long as your wizard is built well.

John Longarrow

2016-11-09, 09:58 PM

Step 1) Children... Innocent little children. Gold dragon would be hard pressed to get into a fight when its going to slaughter a bunch of kids.

Step 2) Make sure children can't just run away. Solid fog comes to mind...

Step 3) Make Dragon talk to you about what its doing and why. By 12th you should have a few neat toys around.

Depending on how your wizard is built downing a potion of Glibness, then explaining to it why its a bad idea to get into a fight when it should be talking rationally can be great fun.

Step 4) If needed, Gank. Host of ways have already been mentioned. Trick is to get the dragon to go where you are prepared and it isn't.

So why is a dragon attacking?

Echch

2016-11-09, 10:26 PM

Manyasone

2016-11-10, 12:58 AM

Vaz

2016-11-10, 02:08 AM

Manyasone; check the title, perhaps?

Available sources? The all-star dragonslaying spell Shivering Touch is the obvious first answer that comes to mind.

Suggests that a natively 20 Intelligence Dragon with Know (Arcane) and Know (History) is not aware of what Shivering Touch can do and hasn't adequately prepared against it. Scintillating Scales, staying out of reach (Dispel Magic) and Sheltered Vitality (if you use the Libris Mortis version, rather than Spell Compendium). Alternatively, an Amulet of Natural Attacks with Spellblades means it's just flat out immune to Shivering Touch, and Dispel Magic so that you can't one-two combo, without having them redirected at you.

Wingbind and Anticipate Teleportation are off the table, however (4th level), unless it's a Loredrake. Can also hope it's not a Spellhoarder.

As for things to watch out for, it's breath weapon, combined with a Ray of Enfeeblement can quickly knock out a wizard (Fort Save or take 6 Str Damage, and 1d6+3 (or 4, loredrake), no save) and make it helpless. With the Bloodwind Spell, it has an absolutely lethal array of natural attacks at short range. If a Loredrake, it might have Friendly Fire, which redirects any Ray attacks.

If you're fighting in its cave, its got Water breathing, and will probably use that to isolate individuals.

Assume you've never got surprise when attacking it in its "cave". It will have spend several resources over its lifespan (at least 100 years) to improve it, either in a mechanical fashion, as they have Alternate Form, so there is possibility of mundane traps to apply debilitating effects/drain resources.

Eldariel

2016-11-10, 02:36 AM

Suggests that a natively 20 Intelligence Dragon with Know (Arcane) and Know (History) is not aware of what Shivering Touch can do and hasn't adequately prepared against it. Scintillating Scales, staying out of reach (Dispel Magic) and Sheltered Vitality (if you use the Libris Mortis version, rather than Spell Compendium). Alternatively, an Amulet of Natural Attacks with Spellblades means it's just flat out immune to Shivering Touch, and Dispel Magic so that you can't one-two combo, without having them redirected at you.

There's a way around that in simply casting Dispel Magic at the Spellblade items to disable them long enough to kill the target. As an item cannot wield items, it's pretty much impossible to properly protect items against this.

The Glyphstone

2016-11-10, 02:57 AM

If it's just a matter of Int scores, of course the Int 20 Dragon will have prepared counters for the commonly used dragonslaying spells. The Int 21+ Wizards will have prepared counters for its counters, such as the Dispels suggested.

Crake

2016-11-10, 03:18 AM

The gist I'm getting from this thread is "It's possible, but not certain".

Ualaa

2016-11-10, 03:25 AM

Once we're dealing with INT scores that are higher than anyone of us, it is rather hard to say who will come up with what.

Chances are good, both sides are smart enough to come up with whatever this board could collectively envision.
If $25,000,000 were legitimately put up for the 'winner', with $25k for each good idea that was used by 'runners up', for either side of the optimization.
So we all spent our days puzzling it out...

With all sources on the table, I'd put my money on the wizards anyway.
The wizards can conceivably at least escape.
And then no matter what the dragon has, it's resources are finite.
While the pair of wizards can prepare a variety of counters, and are smart enough to have more than one option so the Dragon cannot simply predict what it should do.

Calthropstu

2016-11-10, 03:37 AM

1 hour prep time eh?

Gold Dragon.

2x wizards.

Depending how much gold is available:

Teleport to the market.

Buy scrolls.

Teleport back.

Get immunity to fire cast on both of you. Add a few other spell buffs shortly before the hour is up. (improved invisibility etc.)

Start your ambush with a scroll of Summon Monster 9, getting a fiendish Roc or elder air elemental.

While your summons tangles with the dragon (should only be 2 or 3 rounds) your partner uses Dimensional Anchor. Now blast the dragon with spells to lower its fortitude or will saves.

Then finish it off with either an instant kill or a long term domination.

Mr Adventurer

2016-11-10, 07:15 AM

If you're going to start slinging 9th level scroll around, I think we can do better than SMIX.

Like Summon Elemental Monolith. That might be the only spell you need.

Inevitability

2016-11-10, 08:28 AM

The gist I'm getting from this thread is "It's possible, but not certain".

Well, there's a lot of variables between two wizards and an adult gold dragon. It's hard to be certain about anything in this situation.

Gemini476

2016-11-10, 08:52 AM

One fun alternative here: Guards and Wards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/guardsAndWards.htm). Turns out adult gold dragons are susceptible to most of the effects!

Including the fog. Because blindsense doesn't stop total concealment. Or let you see anything except creatures.

Crake

2016-11-10, 08:56 AM

If you're going to start slinging 9th level scroll around, I think we can do better than SMIX.

Like Summon Elemental Monolith. That might be the only spell you need.

If you're slinging around 9th level scrolls, so is the dragon, so yeah, let's not, and instead focus on the merits available to each character themselves.

Vaz

2016-11-10, 08:57 AM

There's a way around that in simply casting Dispel Magic at the Spellblade items to disable them long enough to kill the target. As an item cannot wield items, it's pretty much impossible to properly protect items against this.

It is a dragon with his entire chest embedded with rocks and stones and gems, most likely; a; as a Dragon, and b; as a Gold one in particular, which is noted as having many, which it then blesses.

It doesn't need to be a particularly notable item. It can even be slotless, and a Mastercrafted item embedded in his chest like a luck stone is. Unless the Wizard specifically wants to identify one particular gem/embedded within his chest, especially if it's had Magic Aura cast on it. Area Dispel doesn't work against a Magic Item. So you've got no real way of pinging what it is which is draining your spells

If we're estimated to be average humans, and 10 int (or at 14 int, however many people equate us), facing a wizard, and we're coming up with theoretical counters to spells, then a Dragon is capable of theorising the counter to the counter to his counter (and ergo, we get to the issue of how do High Level Wizard's fight; they don't, they have cups of tea, and discuss theoretical counter-measures).

As a Dragon, it's going to be used to having things coming to kill it, and is going to be experienced, especially considering it has incredible wealth (Triple, it's a Dragon). As necklace of natural attacks doesn't need to have a +1, it can be 300+6K/spellblade (or 2.6K+6K), but that can be cheesy (making it available only to a Dragon not only reduces its cost, but making it limited to a class, alignment, and skill value (choose an obscure skill, like say Knowledge (Architecture), or Knowledge (Nobility)) that the party doesn't get access to until late in the game, when they need a DC30 Use Magic Device check to use it).

That said, if we're cheesing out items and picking up , why are we not purchasing Scrolls of Ice Assassin and Mind Rape? And in regards to Teleport, you have to know how close they are, and be able to know someone/somewhere you can pick up such scrolls from. You can't Plane Shift yet, so you need to be within 1200 miles of the Magic Mart (London to Skopje/Macedonia). You then need to teleport back. How well do you know that place? Assuming it's "Viewed once", you have a 25% chance of messing up, or worse, ending up in another, more dangerous dragon's lair (Mummy's?). Remember as well according to the DMG that no Metropolis can have access to 9th level Wizards or Sorcerer Spells (1d4+Community Modifier gives you max Wiz 16). Cleric and Druid spells are 18 max, so you'd have to hope that there are items you can find which are 9th level.

* Note; regarding the above, this is obviously DM's discretion, of course, and many don't go by those tables, because they're arbitrary and not tailored to specific settings, but they are the ones that we have rules for, hence using them.

John Longarrow

2016-11-10, 12:10 PM

...I'm confused.
Why does the reason the dragon attacks matter?
Maybe they cut up it's children for components? Maybe it got a string of bad hands during poker night and needs to vent it's frustration?

I don't really understand the big difference there...

Depending on WHY this paragon of good and law is attacking should give a host of counters. If the dragon is coming to rescue the fair damsel, using her as a human shield should stop MOST of what the dragon is going to do.

If the dragon wants to kill you because of your evil acts, use polymorph to make someone else look like you so it kills THEM while you prepare to get rid of it.

If the dragon just wants your tower, use the hardest to access spot inside so it needs to assume human form. Much easier to take on when it can't use all of its natural attacks.

They why dictates much of what the dragon should be doing. Knowing how it is planning to attack and what its goals are make it much easier to defeat.

Vaz

2016-11-10, 02:09 PM

BoED; "Good characters aren't necessarily stupid." So you've got to get it to come out and attack you. How? By picking up some random girl?

1. Why does the events of a short lived sentient race have any compulsion behind the dragon to come out?
2. The Dragon is intelligent. It knows enough that someone drawing it out is going to draw it out for a reason.
3. If it's being drawn out for a reason, the Dragon has got to be aware of the possibility something is strong enough to beat it.
4. It's functionally immortal. It can do so much more than save one humans life. Can it not send some of its other capable allies (in its Alternate Form) to help save the damsel? It's only a damsel in distress.

As a person willing to piss off a Gold Dragon, and then turn someone else into yourself, that's pretty evil. If you leave it any longer, and it's able to get to CL12 (Sorcerer 3+Loredrake); it gets Antimagic Field (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html).

That's not to mention its short duration (12mins) is more than long enough for said person to look like you to no longer look like you, should the dragon do its lawful good thing and use its Cone of Weakness. A Dragon isn't stupid. It's not going to attack a Wizard Tower until it's thoroughly aware of the target. Be interested to know what your Wizard Tower's hardest to reach spot is, that cannot be reached by a Huge Dragon capable of shoulder charging a building into rubble.

You're making many assumptions on the dragon's behalf, particularly on "Lawful Stupid".

Fouredged Sword

2016-11-10, 04:09 PM

If you get down to it you start playing chess matches. Both side can win. The dragon can make smart moves and win and the wizards can make smart moves and win. Does the dragon alter self into a human and just ride up to the tower in a wagon pulled by an ox and ask to trade? Do the wizards use divination to learn about the dragon attack beforehand? Do the wizards have a large army of undead controled through magic? Is it full of PAO'd great wyrm zombie dragons?

Both sides of this are smart. The dragon is going to need to avoid a straight up fight and the wizards need to avoid getting caught with their pants down.

At the end of the day the wizards are going to want to scy and die the dragon because in the end an attacker can probe your defenses endlessly unless you actually go and kill them first.

Eldariel

2016-11-10, 04:44 PM

It is a dragon with his entire chest embedded with rocks and stones and gems, most likely; a; as a Dragon, and b; as a Gold one in particular, which is noted as having many, which it then blesses.

Arcane Sight makes locating it trivial and should be Permanencied on Wizards by this level. Either you locate the Illusion aura from Magic Aura or Abjuration (Spellblade or other countermagic implement). Plus, Dispel Magic should generally be Chained; this allows you to hit CL-1 items + target each casting. Rod or oldfashioned, either is fine.

And in regards to Teleport, you have to know how close they are, and be able to know someone/somewhere you can pick up such scrolls from. You can't Plane Shift yet, so you need to be within 1200 miles of the Magic Mart (London to Skopje/Macedonia).

Well, you can always prepare multiple Teleports each day. Lesser Planar Binding can get Nightmare which can provide you with Astral Projection if desired for planar travel.

If we're estimated to be average humans, and 10 int (or at 14 int, however many people equate us), facing a wizard, and we're coming up with theoretical counters to spells, then a Dragon is capable of theorising the counter to the counter to his counter (and ergo, we get to the issue of how do High Level Wizard's fight; they don't, they have cups of tea, and discuss theoretical counter-measures).

Except this Dragon lacks the power of a high level Wizard. High level Wizards drinking tea or obliterating multiverses only works when both are actually high level wizards. Level 3 spells are nothing to write home about, while level 6 is a whole different story, 1 level after the true revolution in spell power. The Dragon has nothing to play that game with. It doesn't teleport, it doesn't scry, it doesn't COP, it doesn't do anything worth noting unless it's at least a Spellhoarding Loredrake. Thus, it needs to plan about 200000 times better than the Wizards since it's essentially fighting against a modern army with sticks and stones.

Echch

2016-11-10, 07:57 PM

Depending on WHY this paragon of good and law is attacking should give a host of counters. If the dragon is coming to rescue the fair damsel, using her as a human shield should stop MOST of what the dragon is going to do.

If the dragon wants to kill you because of your evil acts, use polymorph to make someone else look like you so it kills THEM while you prepare to get rid of it.

If the dragon just wants your tower, use the hardest to access spot inside so it needs to assume human form. Much easier to take on when it can't use all of its natural attacks.

They why dictates much of what the dragon should be doing. Knowing how it is planning to attack and what its goals are make it much easier to defeat.

Hmm... Good point. I'm not sure why it makes the strategy of Hide from Dragons, Fly, Assay Resistance and Maximized Shivering Touch invalid though.

I mean, once it's down, you should be able to drop an AMF and then CDG it.
And then you can... I dunno, behead it, skin it, fill it up with your favorite filling, cook it and eat it or whatever else you do with dragons.

John Longarrow

2016-11-10, 09:27 PM

Hmm... Good point. I'm not sure why it makes the strategy of Hide from Dragons, Fly, Assay Resistance and Maximized Shivering Touch invalid though.

I mean, once it's down, you should be able to drop an AMF and then CDG it.
And then you can... I dunno, behead it, skin it, fill it up with your favorite filling, cook it and eat it or whatever else you do with dragons.

They WHY should dictate how its going to behave and what its initial goals and objectives are. Shivering touch won't do much it it keeps to range and uses its breath to slowly melt your tower. Same is true if it keeps going off to get really big rocks to drop.

If its after something then keeping that something away from it may be worth more than the tower. Likewise if it wants to do something else (say fly around singing a song about how your a poopie head to ruin your rep) what you need to do changes.

The trick is to not fight until after you've already won.

Coidzor

2016-11-10, 09:32 PM

Vaz

2016-11-10, 10:31 PM

Arcane Sight makes locating it trivial and should be Permanencied on Wizards by this level. Either you locate the Illusion aura from Magic Aura or Abjuration (Spellblade or other countermagic implement). Plus, Dispel Magic should generally be Chained; this allows you to hit CL-1 items + target each casting. Rod or oldfashioned, either is fine.
Arcane Sight can't determine which is the real one if there's multiple Magic Aura's (it would only be illusion in that instance). There are several. Unless both Wizards have prepared multiple dispels. Also seems pretty meta that a Wizard will know that the faint low level illusion stones on a Dragons hide are in actuality Spellblade's. Now, you could accuse that of essentially being "precautious", or wave it as being the wizards higher than conceptualized intelligence being manifest, so we'll let it wave.

Well, you can always prepare multiple Teleports each day. Lesser Planar Binding can get Nightmare which can provide you with Astral Projection if desired for planar travel.Anything the Wizards can do with WBL, the Dragon can do also. If you want to take that rabbit hole, anyway.

Except this Dragon lacks the power of a high level Wizard. High level Wizards drinking tea or obliterating multiverses only works when both are actually high level wizards. Level 3 spells are nothing to write home about, while level 6 is a whole different story, 1 level after the true revolution in spell power. The Dragon has nothing to play that game with. It doesn't teleport, it doesn't scry, it doesn't COP, it doesn't do anything worth noting unless it's at least a Spellhoarding Loredrake. Thus, it needs to plan about 200000 times better than the Wizards since it's essentially fighting against a modern army with sticks and stones.
Then why is it that a Dragon with 3rd level spells has counters to what the wizards are doing with their 6th level slots? What are your at most 6 6th level spell slots from the 2 wizards?

Every answer you can provide, the Dragon will have been able to prepare for also. It has lived 100-200 years, likely of people coming to hunt him down, so can realisitically have experienced and succeeded against certain tactics, and learned of particular tactics to counter another. But for what purpose do a pair of wizards want to go pissing off an adult dragon, especially a Gold One? There seems to be little gain in it. There are much easier XP and wealth bags knocking about, and would serve more to keep it onside as an ally.

Coidzor

2016-11-10, 10:41 PM

But for what purpose do a pair of wizards want to go pissing off an adult dragon, especially a Gold One? There seems to be little gain in it. There are much easier XP and wealth bags knocking about, and would serve more to keep it onside as an ally.

Obviously it's a terrible neighbour and the local homeowner's association decided that trial by combat to the death is the only way to resolve the issue of the begonias.

Echch

2016-11-10, 11:01 PM

Then why is it that a Dragon with 3rd level spells has counters to what the wizards are doing with their 6th level slots? What are your at most 6 6th level spell slots from the 2 wizards?

Every answer you can provide, the Dragon will have been able to prepare for also. It has lived 100-200 years, likely of people coming to hunt him down, so can realisitically have experienced and succeeded against certain tactics, and learned of particular tactics to counter another. But for what purpose do a pair of wizards want to go pissing off an adult dragon, especially a Gold One? There seems to be little gain in it. There are much easier XP and wealth bags knocking about, and would serve more to keep it onside as an ally.

Actually, that is unlikely. Even if it had lived for a few hundred years, it doesn't have the spell slots to prepare for every single possible choice arriving from 6 level 6 spell slots. There are over 200 of 6th level spells alone, you know? He may have survived a few tactics, but that doesn't mean he has to be a genius beyond any deity. The fact that he, as you pointed out, survived, is more likely to indicate that the strategies he managed to counter are lackluster at best, which means that if he prepares based on his old encounters, he is already preparing the wrong loadout. His Int doesn't suggest him outsmarting them either: At level 12, a Wizard will probably have 20 Int too (more likely 22), so it is more likely he'll get outsmarted than the other way around, since they are at least as smart and there are two of them.

And a Gold Dragon is LG. The L part suggests he's trustworthy, but the G part means trouble if you are doing morally questionable things. Other than that, killing a dragon comes with Wealth and XP (even if it's easier to get it elsewhere, it's still there) and a soul, if you use a Thinuan weapon, which might be worth something, given that it is the soul of a CR 16/Level 23 LG character.
While it is clearly less risky than beating up 48 Dire Lions while giving the same XP, if you are confident you can beat the nearby biggest XP-bag, why wouldn't you go for it? It got XP, gold and is probably tasty too!

John Longarrow

2016-11-10, 11:24 PM

Obviously it's a terrible neighbour and the local homeowner's association decided that trial by combat to the death is the only way to resolve the issue of the begonias.

OK, having been in a homeowners association I can totally relate to this!!! Bravo!! Fantastic!

Vaz

2016-11-10, 11:50 PM

Actually, that is unlikely. Even if it had lived for a few hundred years, it doesn't have the spell slots to prepare for every single possible choice arriving from 6 level 6 spell slots. There are over 200 of 6th level spells alone, you know? He may have survived a few tactics, but that doesn't mean he has to be a genius beyond any deity. The fact that he, as you pointed out, survived, is more likely to indicate that the strategies he managed to counter are lackluster at best, which means that if he prepares based on his old encounters, he is already preparing the wrong loadout. His Int doesn't suggest him outsmarting them either: At level 12, a Wizard will probably have 20 Int too (more likely 22), so it is more likely he'll get outsmarted than the other way around, since they are at least as smart and there are two of them.
If a Wizard can be 12th level in the lifetime of a human, then they'll have faced enough to be able to theorize what can kill a dragon at least. Put that in the mind of a Dragon which has lived around 6 times as long as a non-middle Aged Wizard, with equal intelligence. It must equally have been applicable in return. Draconomicon says that a Gold Dragon spends much of its time in an assumed form, usually a non-descript human, in order to travel and observe the world without attracting undue attention. It's realistic that they'll use this time to find out how to kill a Dragon, especially a gold dragon. As a Sorcerer 7, they're capable casters (if not for their challenge rating), and can learn spells like Shivering Touch. Going to a Magic Guild or library in order to track down information regarding "Dragon Killing" is within their theoretical skill ability. It stands to reason that they'll be learning of how to counter it, or developing counters to it.

A Dragon has 20 Int, and enough wealth to realistically have a +6 Int Item, so they're at 26. A Wizard with 18 Int at ECL1 should have around 25 with a +4 item, 27 with a +6 item.

And a Gold Dragon is LG. The L part suggests he's trustworthy, but the G part means trouble if you are doing morally questionable things. Other than that, killing a dragon comes with Wealth and XP (even if it's easier to get it elsewhere, it's still there) and a soul, if you use a Thinuan weapon, which might be worth something, given that it is the soul of a CR 16/Level 23 LG character.
While it is clearly less risky than beating up 48 Dire Lions while giving the same XP, if you are confident you can beat the nearby biggest XP-bag, why wouldn't you go for it? It got XP, gold and is probably tasty too!
Because Wizards are highly intelligent and exposing themselves to risk isn't an intelligent thing to do. Tell players that they can choose to get XP, but roll a D20, and on an 11+, they die, or get XP, and not die, and see what they choose.

Nearby is completely irrelevant, you're an ECL12 wizard. We've already determined that.

Echch

2016-11-11, 12:36 AM

Because Wizards are highly intelligent and exposing themselves to risk isn't an intelligent thing to do. Tell players that they can choose to get XP, but roll a D20, and on an 11+, they die, or get XP, and not die, and see what they choose.
So basically, the dragon will have had intelligent encounters to beat, as you've said before... without anyone intelligent ever having had any reason to attack it or any dragon of it's kind? That... doesn't seem to make much sense.

Put that in the mind of a Dragon which has lived around 6 times as long as a non-middle Aged Wizard, with equal intelligence. I'm fairly sure that beyond age boni, aging doesn't do too much. But sure, for the sake of this argument, let's say the Wizards are Elan that have been taken along for the ride of a Teleport Through Time spell. Would they now know everything on the basis of having lived a few thousand years? If yes, then well, we are at the beginning again.

It must equally have been applicable in return. Draconomicon says that a Gold Dragon spends much of its time in an assumed form, usually a non-descript human, in order to travel and observe the world without attracting undue attention. It's realistic that they'll use this time to find out how to kill a Dragon, especially a gold dragon. As a Sorcerer 7, they're capable casters (if not for their challenge rating), and can learn spells like Shivering Touch. Going to a Magic Guild or library in order to track down information regarding "Dragon Killing" is within their theoretical skill ability. It stands to reason that they'll be learning of how to counter it, or developing counters to it.
I think if a DM has gone to the point of letting any creature develop spells that are capable of countering every possible spell of twice the spells level, we are talking about a scenario that is rather far removed from regular D&D. Also, we are walking in cirlces: If every dragon knows how to not be beaten by spells that beat dragons, said spells don't beat dragons, and thus there is no book about dragon-killing spells.

A Dragon has 20 Int, and enough wealth to realistically have a +6 Int Item, so they're at 26. A Wizard with 18 Int at ECL1 should have around 25 with a +4 item, 27 with a +6 item.
I suppose that's fair. I still don't think that makes dragons impossible to beat no matter what, but then again, how you run a dragons is DM-dependant.

Vaz

2016-11-11, 01:49 AM

Not being an intelligent thing to do doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't happen. And I mentioned going to a Mage's Guild to theorise. It also doesn't need to have all been learned at once.

Also, of course there are books about killing dragons. Except the Gold Dragons are powerful, as having easier access to spellcasting, higher HD, and Intelligence more than what others can offer, and as a result can prepare against it. Are you telling me than at Adult age, a Large 18HD White Dragon with Intelligence 10 and 1st level spells, without Alternate Form is equal to that of a 23HD Huge one with 20 Intelligence, Alternate Form, and 3rd level spells? Said Gold Dragon can understand the nested links in how spells operate (Spellcraft checks in mid 20's if it's got some ranks in it) and how to interpret how they work, as well as having a much better possibility of being able to protect against them.

Meanwhile, a White Dragon has to make do with the average intelligence of a quasi medieval-grade human. Even with presumption that it has max cross class ranks in Spellcasting, it has scores that barely allow it to hit 20 on average to learn how spells work, and even if it did, with the spellcasting of a Sorcerer 1, and no alternate form, and being a naturally evil creature, it is in a bit of a pickle in how to achieve what a Gold Dragon is more able to do so.

No. It's just that these individuals in particular, being level 12 are at the same level as a Dragon.

When you're looking at the list of suggested items for your characters to buy, you're looking at trying to protect yourself against weaknesses in your abilities. Why should an NPC do anything less?

JeminiZero

2016-11-11, 08:46 AM

If a Wizard can be 12th level in the lifetime of a human, then they'll have faced enough to be able to theorize what can kill a dragon at least. Put that in the mind of a Dragon which has lived around 6 times as long as a non-middle Aged Wizard, with equal intelligence. It must equally have been applicable in return. Draconomicon says that a Gold Dragon spends much of its time in an assumed form, usually a non-descript human, in order to travel and observe the world without attracting undue attention. It's realistic that they'll use this time to find out how to kill a Dragon, especially a gold dragon. As a Sorcerer 7, they're capable casters (if not for their challenge rating), and can learn spells like Shivering Touch. Going to a Magic Guild or library in order to track down information regarding "Dragon Killing" is within their theoretical skill ability. It stands to reason that they'll be learning of how to counter it, or developing counters to it.

I would like to point out that while this is theoretically possible, it is also a very narrow view.

Why JUST the wizard guild? He should also take a walk down to the local Barbarian Guild and study up on how Pouncing Leap Attack Shock Troopers can kill him in a single charge. So he needs to prepare against that as well. Then he walks over to the Clerics's guild, where he learns how a DMM Persisted Consumptive Field boosted Blasphemy can kill him in one round. He has to prepare for THAT as well. Then he goes down the street to the rogue's guild, the psion's guild, the Binder's guild etc Why, he has to prepare for all THOSE guys as well.

And in fact, while he is going from Guild to Guild, he learns about all the OTHER horrible monsters that Adventurer's face on a regular basis: unspeakable Aberrations, mighty Giants, powerful Constructs, mischievous Fey, rotting Undead, Demons & Devils of all kinds, and of course, enemy Chromatic Dragons of all colors. Why, he might encounter ANY of these monsters on his travels. He has to prepare against THEM as well.

The challenge isn't making a Dragon that can kill a pair of level 12 wizards. The challenge is to make a Dragon that is versatile enough to handle any possible CR16 enemy that might come his way, and then sending this Dragon to go kill a pair of level 12 wizards.

Eldariel

2016-11-11, 09:23 AM

Arcane Sight can't determine which is the real one if there's multiple Magic Aura's (it would only be illusion in that instance). There are several. Unless both Wizards have prepared multiple dispels. Also seems pretty meta that a Wizard will know that the faint low level illusion stones on a Dragons hide are in actuality Spellblade's. Now, you could accuse that of essentially being "precautious", or wave it as being the wizards higher than conceptualized intelligence being manifest, so we'll let it wave.

It's always a good idea to take out opponent's magic items before deleting them if you attack them directly, particularly if you detect a bunch of Faint Illusion Auras ('cause there's exactly one Faint Illusion used on items with long duration). A single Chained Dispel can hit 12-20 items with a Dispel check of "Yes".

Anything the Wizards can do with WBL, the Dragon can do also. If you want to take that rabbit hole, anyway.

No they can't. A Dragon can't cast 6th level spells themselves so a Dragon can't use metamagic rods on them. If you really want to go down that rabbit hole, Wizards have infinite wealth on this level since they can cast certain Wall-spells (Salt, Iron, etc.) and thus produce infinite amounts of sellable goods. No matter the level you bring into this, Wizards win by default. But fighting directly is foolish when you have spells like Planar Binding at your disposal.

Vaz

2016-11-11, 11:50 AM

Partially charged wands of wall of salt. Back to square 1.

Calthropstu

2016-11-11, 11:59 AM

It's always a good idea to take out opponent's magic items before deleting them if you attack them directly, particularly if you detect a bunch of Faint Illusion Auras ('cause there's exactly one Faint Illusion used on items with long duration). A single Chained Dispel can hit 12-20 items with a Dispel check of "Yes".

No they can't. A Dragon can't cast 6th level spells themselves so a Dragon can't use metamagic rods on them. If you really want to go down that rabbit hole, Wizards have infinite wealth on this level since they can cast certain Wall-spells (Salt, Iron, etc.) and thus produce infinite amounts of sellable goods. No matter the level you bring into this, Wizards win by default. But fighting directly is foolish when you have spells like Planar Binding at your disposal.

Planar binding generally gets my players killed.

Very very quickly.

"What? There's a wizard summoning 20 of my angels a week for 2 weeks service time each? And not paying them? Ok. Send a planetar down there, and teach him a lesson." *planetar goes down.*

Usually that's enough to trounce the would be mass summoner at 12th level. And he is left with a warning. After that, planar binding gets used much much less frequently.

Inevitability

2016-11-11, 12:13 PM

Planar binding generally gets my players killed.

Very very quickly.

"What? There's a wizard summoning 20 of my angels a week for 2 weeks service time each? And not paying them? Ok. Send a planetar down there, and teach him a lesson." *planetar goes down.*

Usually that's enough to trounce the would be mass summoner at 12th level. And he is left with a warning. After that, planar binding gets used much much less frequently.

Who was saying anything about the angels not getting paid?

Manyasone

2016-11-11, 12:18 PM

Who was saying anything about the angels not getting paid?

Well, most binding shenanigans on this board assume that you don't pay anything because 'I are a powahfull wizzzard, phear meh, yarrrr...'

Eldariel

2016-11-11, 12:27 PM

Well, most binding shenanigans on this board assume that you don't pay anything because 'I are a powahfull wizzzard, phear meh, yarrrr...'

It's mostly because there are ways to buff the Charisma-check to the point that it's a foregone conclusion and the bound party doesn't have access to the same buffs. It's all because of the mechanics of the spell.

Manyasone

2016-11-11, 12:46 PM

It's mostly because there are ways to buff the Charisma-check to the point that it's a foregone conclusion and the bound party doesn't have access to the same buffs. It's all because of the mechanics of the spell.

Some DM's like to roleplay the negotiations in case of calling and some DM's like to hold grudges with the bound creatures because 'puny mortals' abusing the spell. For instance after the sixth bound efreeti for wish shenanigans don't be surprised to wake up in an inferno caused by pissed of efreet

Inevitability

2016-11-11, 03:28 PM

If a wizard can cast Planar Binding, they can also cast Mount, Water to Acid, Create Lantern Archon, Wall of Salt or Wall of Iron. Generating enough money to pay the bound outsiders isn't a problem.

Calthropstu

2016-11-11, 04:16 PM

If a wizard can cast Planar Binding, they can also cast Mount, Water to Acid, Create Lantern Archon, Wall of Salt or Wall of Iron. Generating enough money to pay the bound outsiders isn't a problem.

Those don't actually generate much money, and in my world you flood the market place and so get diminishing returns. Anything you can generate, other wizards can also generate. A wall of iron might get you maybe... 35 gold pieces in my world. You'll make 100 times that dungeon delving.

Calthropstu

2016-11-11, 04:18 PM

Some DM's like to roleplay the negotiations in case of calling and some DM's like to hold grudges with the bound creatures because 'puny mortals' abusing the spell. For instance after the sixth bound efreeti for wish shenanigans don't be surprised to wake up in an inferno caused by pissed of efreet

Heh, my group... anyone trying wish shenanigans are screwed. "I wish for a ring of protection +1"

"Ok, you are now a ring of protection +1."

And that's not even me who does that.

Inevitability

2016-11-11, 04:25 PM

Those don't actually generate much money, and in my world you flood the market place and so get diminishing returns. Anything you can generate, other wizards can also generate. A wall of iron might get you maybe... 35 gold pieces in my world. You'll make 100 times that dungeon delving.

Heh, my group... anyone trying wish shenanigans are screwed. "I wish for a ring of protection +1"

"Ok, you are now a ring of protection +1."

And that's not even me who does that.

This isn't about your group. It doesn't matter if a wizard in your game makes 35 GP per Wall of Iron, the rules say a single wall should be netting more like 3500.

Coidzor

2016-11-11, 04:27 PM

Those don't actually generate much money, and in my world you flood the market place and so get diminishing returns. Anything you can generate, other wizards can also generate. A wall of iron might get you maybe... 35 gold pieces in my world. You'll make 100 times that dungeon delving.

I'm going to level with you here, the majority of us don't really care about how things play out at your table.

At the end of the day, moderate use of planar binding should be affordable whether by using WBL breaking techniques or for an adventurer who gets loot from dungeon crawls, especially for a special occasion. That's all that matters and going on and on about it interminably is just boring.

Mr Adventurer

2016-11-11, 04:27 PM

Heh, my group... anyone trying wish shenanigans are screwed. "I wish for a ring of protection +1"

"Ok, you are now a ring of protection +1."

And that's not even me who does that.

That is not shenanigans.

The Glyphstone

2016-11-11, 05:03 PM

A 12-level wizard also has access to infinite markets to sell their Walls of Iron at, thanks to Planeshifting to the Plane of Shadow with its links/portals to alternate Material Planes. So there's no risk of inflation.

Vaz

2016-11-11, 07:45 PM

So does a Dragon through being able to purchase Scrolls of Planar Binding. It's not unique to the Wizard.

Aharon

2016-11-12, 07:39 AM

So does a Dragon through being able to purchase Scrolls of Planar Binding. It's not unique to the Wizard.

I think this depends very, very strongly on how the dragon uses its hoard. Option one: he only uses magical items he already owns. Several random treasure results (magic items only, coins and art aren't relevant for that):

Arcane Scroll (Fear (700 gp)) (total 700 gp)
Lyre of Building (13000 gp)
Ring of Counterspells (4000 gp) (design provides clue to function)
Rod of the Viper (19000 gp)
Staff of Swarming Insects (32 of 50 charges) (inscription provides clue to function) (15840 gp)
Wand of Summon Monster III (41 of 50 charges) (9225 gp)

Ioun Stone (pearly white spindle) (20000 gp) (design provides clue to function)
Ring of Force Shield (8500 gp) (inscription provides clue to function)
Rod of Enlarge Metamagic (11000 gp)

Arcane Scroll (Solid Fog (700 gp)) (total 700 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Spectral Hand (150 gp), Tiny Hut (375 gp), Wall of Force (1125 gp)) (total 1650 gp)
Arcane Scroll (Dispel Magic (375 gp), Phantom Steed (375 gp), Minor Creation (700 gp), Cone of Cold (1125 gp)) (total 2575 gp)
Cloak of Resistance (+3) (9000 gp)
Rod of Enlarge Metamagic (11000 gp)
Rod of the Python (13000 gp)

Arcane Scroll (Rage (375 gp), Speak with Animals (525 gp), Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (700 gp), Minor Creation (700 gp)) (total 2300 gp)
Rod of Metal and Mineral Detection (10500 gp) (inscription provides clue to function)
Wand of Dispel Magic (29 of 50 charges) (design provides clue to function) (6525 gp)

Arcane Scroll (Keen Edge (375 gp)) (total 375 gp)
Arcane Scroll (2 x Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (375 gp), Wall of Stone (1125 gp)) (total 1500 gp)
Light Wooden Shield (Small) (+1 shield) (1153 gp)
Ring of Protection (+3) (Lawful Good, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 10, Ego 4, Empathy, Vision (60 ft.) and hearing, Deathwatch continuous, Spot 10 ranks) (27700 gp)
Staff of Abjuration (38 of 50 charges) (inscription provides clue to function) (49400 gp)

So, random treasure obviously doesn't cut it - nothing specifically helpful for the proposed encounter. If we assume the dragon actually was able to part from parts of its hoard to buy items that are better suited for its needs, we have a budget of between 20.000 and 90.000 gp.
With permanent magic items, this is still not a huge contribution to its threat-level (though at the upper end, already equivalent to the WBL of our 12th-level wizards).
If the dragon is really desperate and blows this amount of money on single-use items and staves, he is a proportionally greater threat.

So, OP, to get a better idea what threat the dragon poses, please chose

a) random items only
b) x-thousand GP, permanent items only (your choice of x)
c) x-thousand GP, burn on single-use items allowed.

Jon_Dahl

2016-11-12, 10:38 AM

So, OP, to get a better idea what threat the dragon poses, please choose

a) random items only
b) x-thousand GP, permanent items only (your choice of x)
c) x-thousand GP, burn on single-use items allowed.

Highlighted.

Aharon

2016-11-12, 03:44 PM

Highlighted.

In that case, chances are slim. Of the five random allocations above, the first would probably be strongest. Use Ring of Counterspells for Shivering Touch. Destroy part of the tower/a window with the breath weapon to create line of sight and line of effect, use up wand of summon monster III first to make the caster waste spells (either Dretches for spamming stinking cloud and hoping for the eventual 1 on the save, or bisons for brute force), then do the same with the wand of swarming insects.

This is a very basic tactic that doesn't work on a high-op paranoid wizard, though. But for medium-op guys, this will be annoying, given the parameters of the fight. Of course, the best option would be to just ignore the summoned monsters, but given their number, they might still be able to deal at least some damage.

Against really optimized guys, the dragon won't cut it without optimized equipment.

Maybe I'll stat up a dragon and try to come up with a better tactic given the random equipment this week-end.

Echch

2016-11-12, 04:26 PM

Not being an intelligent thing to do doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't happen. And I mentioned going to a Mage's Guild to theorise. It also doesn't need to have all been learned at once.

So... the gold dragon, despite never having been attacked by a Wizard, because it would be stupid to do that and Wizards, according to you, wouldn't do something stupid with Int as their primary stat... Studies up on the one class that, according to you, would never attack it? In favor of every other possible class?

Also, of course there are books about killing dragons. Except the Gold Dragons are powerful, as having easier access to spellcasting, higher HD, and Intelligence more than what others can offer, and as a result can prepare against it. Are you telling me than at Adult age, a Large 18HD White Dragon with Intelligence 10 and 1st level spells, without Alternate Form is equal to that of a 23HD Huge one with 20 Intelligence, Alternate Form, and 3rd level spells? Said Gold Dragon can understand the nested links in how spells operate (Spellcraft checks in mid 20's if it's got some ranks in it) and how to interpret how they work, as well as having a much better possibility of being able to protect against them.

The gold dragon reads up on how to kill white dragons then? You know, the one with the Cold-Subtype? The one immune to what these boards consider the ultimate dragonslayer spell? I mean, we are already discounting the fact that an adventurer (and your dragon) would normally understand that dragons work differently depending on color and thus probably look up a guide on that type, but why would it choose a white dragon-guide out of all books available? I'd understand a red dragon, but a white one?

Meanwhile, a White Dragon has to make do with the average intelligence of a quasi medieval-grade human. Even with presumption that it has max cross class ranks in Spellcasting, it has scores that barely allow it to hit 20 on average to learn how spells work, and even if it did, with the spellcasting of a Sorcerer 1, and no alternate form, and being a naturally evil creature, it is in a bit of a pickle in how to achieve what a Gold Dragon is more able to do so.

Yes, because evil creatures must, by default, be more incompetent than good creatures. You know that BoED's "good doesn't mean stupid" doesn't equate to "evil means stupid", right? In addition to that, a white dragon is not the equal to a gold one. A single look at the CR rating tells us this and everyone who actually knows about dragons would be able to put that together. Heck, white dragons even utilize different strategies as gold dragons as they use their burrow speed to lay traps and use the weather of their environment to wear the unprepared targets down while gold dragons tend to open combat directly with spellcasting. A gold dragon would thus want to look up a gold dragon guide... which, according to you, no Wizard would bother to write anyway.

No. It's just that these individuals in particular, being level 12 are at the same level as a Dragon.

Well, they cast spells of twice it's level at a higher caster level and have two sets of actions. If it has set up a protection, greater dispel magic has a fair chance of taking care of that.

When you're looking at the list of suggested items for your characters to buy, you're looking at trying to protect yourself against weaknesses in your abilities. Why should an NPC do anything less?

Well, because apparently, no Wizard would ever attack a gold dragon and therefore isn't a weakness to protect yourself against, right? See, your strategy of "it just buys everything" only works as long as we view it as a 23 HD NPC. In which case, most attempts at a white adult dragon at an appropriate CR would also be pretty heavy, as that would entitle it to some serious equipment too.

Endarire

2016-11-12, 10:05 PM

Assuming we aren't talking super theoretical material ("But I have safeguards for my safeguards for my...!"), consider this very likely, very simple scenario. We're assuming standard wealth by level for the Wizards. (Seemingly no PrCs and no loops either.)

For the Dragon, what can we assume? What's in his hoard? Who are his allies? Until we know this, we're stuck in a theoretical situation. But back to a plausible situation!

Both Wizards have contingency. Both have celerity as their contingent spell. Both have a trigger of "when I want the contingent spell to activate." It's reasonable to assume that these Wizards have this setup. This means, on a whim, that winning initiative is helpful but not entirely necessary to beat this thing. If Wiz 1 and Wiz 2 use celerity often, I'm also assuming they're immune to Daze.

What preparations have these Wizards made in general? By level 12, each could have used planar binding on an arbitrary number of Efreet for wishes. Even getting a single 3-pack of wishes each is a notable advantage. Planar binding works on other things too, like Aasimar Sorcerers and Tiefling Wizards.

There's also the matter of hitting the Dragon with a tricked-out, Arcane Thesised orb of X (like orb of fire and Searing Spell to deal half damage to Fire immune foes with 1 round Daze as a rider effect). (Cindy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14084622&postcount=50) is the build's name.)

The Dragon has no such luxury. He may have celerity but we can't assume level 4 spells. He may have Daze immunity, but that's also a question.

Even a single Wizard12 could likely take out the Dragon given the information provided. The Dragon is probably just better off letting the girl die then having a high-level friend use true resurrection to get her back.

And this is before we talk about super high caster levels for things like dispel magic, or using Circle Magic (via Hathran) to likely "just win" the fight.

Vaz

2016-11-12, 11:33 PM

@Aharon; why does the dragon have to keep those items? Can he not sell them on and use that stuff to get more appropriate gear? What does a Gold Dragon need with more than a couple of magic weapons for its humanoid form?

So... the gold dragon, despite never having been attacked by a Wizard, because it would be stupid to do that and Wizards, according to you, wouldn't do something stupid with Int as their primary stat... Studies up on the one class that, according to you, would never attack it? In favor of every other possible class?
Because a Wizard is the only spellcaster. Do you need it spoonfeeding to you? A "wizard" doesn't exist. A "wizard" is a bag of mechanics. A "wizard" casts prepared spells from a spellbook, using the intelligence. A "Sorcerer" knows the spell, and casts from their charisma. A Sorcerer doesn't have to be perfectly intelligent. A Cleric doesn't have to be perfectly intelligent. A person trying to kill a dragon doesn't have to be perfectly intelligent. A wizard 12 fighting an adult dragon would struggle. They're intelligent enough to know this. A Sorcerer might not. A Rogue might not.

The gold dragon reads up on how to kill white dragons then? You know, the one with the Cold-Subtype? The one immune to what these boards consider the ultimate dragonslayer spell? I mean, we are already discounting the fact that an adventurer (and your dragon) would normally understand that dragons work differently depending on color and thus probably look up a guide on that type, but why would it choose a white dragon-guide out of all books available? I'd understand a red dragon, but a white one?
I'm gonna let you read up on what Immunity to Cold does, and let you work out the difference between Dexterity Damage and Cold Damage. You a sorcerer bud, because you're certainly no wizard.

Yes, because evil creatures must, by default, be more incompetent than good creatures. You know that BoED's "good doesn't mean stupid" doesn't equate to "evil means stupid", right? In addition to that, a white dragon is not the equal to a gold one. A single look at the CR rating tells us this and everyone who actually knows about dragons would be able to put that together. Heck, white dragons even utilize different strategies as gold dragons as they use their burrow speed to lay traps and use the weather of their environment to wear the unprepared targets down while gold dragons tend to open combat directly with spellcasting. A gold dragon would thus want to look up a gold dragon guide... which, according to you, no Wizard would bother to write anyway.
Challenge Ratings are meta-knowledge. A Tarrasque seems like a threat. But then the Intelligent Wizard can use Summon Undead for an Allip, and it's no longer a challenge. A Sorcerer without a high Knowledge Arcana check might instead just cast Ray of Stupidity. It's got a check high enough to learn it's a Magical Animal and unintelligent, but not enough until they're having the spell nullified/reflected back at them.

Well, they cast spells of twice it's level at a higher caster level and have two sets of actions. If it has set up a protection, greater dispel magic has a fair chance of taking care of that.
Such as? If I'm able to come up with a counter tactic, and a Wizard is able to come up with nested contingencies, trust me, a 200 year old Dragon with an intelligence of 26 is equally likely to have done so. There are maybe 150 6th level spells for a Wizard to use. Some aren't useful for a fight (Analyze Dweomer), some are downtime spells (like Animate Dread Warrior, for example), while others clearly are less useful; A Dragon with

Well, because apparently, no Wizard would ever attack a gold dragon and therefore isn't a weakness to protect yourself against, right? See, your strategy of "it just buys everything" only works as long as we view it as a 23 HD NPC. In which case, most attempts at a white adult dragon at an appropriate CR would also be pretty heavy, as that would entitle it to some serious equipment too.
That only works as you equate "it buys everything it can use to counter opponents" when it lacks the intelligence of anything more than a pesudo-medieval intelligence basic human, the same basic human who acts as a barman, the same basic human who acts as a farmer, or a soldier. The same basic human who become a Sorcerer. A Gold Dragon has the intelligence of a Wizard. Sure, they don't cast as a Wizard, but that doesn't mean that they cannot think like one.

I'm not saying that an Adult White Dragon doesn't have access to some neat-o gear, but my question is how would it be able to get the right gear? It would need to make some friends elsewhere. While a Gold Dragon can take humanoid form (of choice, depending on whom it needs to deal with), has 7th level casting, and the intelligence of a wizard, a White Dragon has no alternative form, no casting to speak of outside of a few level 1 spells, and the average intelligence of a human town guard. While a Gold Dragon can travel reasonably far and wide untroubled in its Alternative Form, and have better access to getting stuff that would be useful, as well as actually knowing what stuff would be useful, would a White Dragon be able to do so? No, it would attract the attention that a flying horse sized dragon, with a known reputation for being cruel and dim traversing the country, in an attempt to seek out some source of having the right gear to protect it, when it lacks the intelligence to actually understand what that is.

Echch

2016-11-12, 11:42 PM

I'm gonna let you read up on what Immunity to Cold does, and let you work out the difference between Dexterity Damage and Cold Damage. You a sorcerer bud, because you're certainly no wizard.

...
Creatures with the cold subtype are immune to the effects of shivering touch.

...I don't even. You know what, fine, you win. This isn't worth putting up with at this point. Congratulations, you are to dragons what LordDrako is to sorcerers.

Vaz

2016-11-13, 01:19 AM

Well that was embarrassing. My bad. Sorry for the insult.

It doesn't change the point that it applies elsewhere?

Aharon

2016-11-13, 04:51 AM

@Vaz
The OP stated that the dragon should use random treasure here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21389490&postcount=63).

@Jon:
In the main post, you wrote

Both human (no templates) wizards are generalists, but you are free to design them in any way you wish with no cheese. No cheese allowed, please!

So apparently, you expected the consensus would go in a different direction - but it actually seems to be that normally, the wizards would win against a standard gold dragon.
The question is rather not how optimized the wizards are, but how optimized the dragon is - are we allowed to select its feats? Is it allowed templates that don't change CR? etc.

How rational/enraged is the dragon? Does it have to rely on surprise? Because taking the fight outside (to the air or underwater) would probably be to its advantage. So reversing my above proposal, I think the dragon shouldn't attack the tower directly, but use aerial bombardment - let boulders fall on the tower from out of spell range to slowly destroy the tower. This will probably draw out the wizard to an open fight - if it doesn't and he flees, the dragon has hopefully at least destroyed a considerable part of his ressources. The result is the same the dragon would get by a lucky direct attack that ends with the wizard teleporting out.

The dragon can't really touch him without a way to prevent extra-dimensional travel, which treasure doesn't grant him and none of the spells he has access to confer. Best way would probably be dimensional anchor (it's in the portal domain as a 3rd level spell, questionable wether the gold dragon's access to other domain spells can be exchanged via a domain draught).

Other options:
A standard gold dragon won't be able to to this, but depending on which ruling you use on the stackability of Enlarge Breath, a slow burn approach would probably also be usable - enlarge so many times that you stay out of spell range, then blast the tower with your breath every few minutes or something.
Similarly, taking feats for added maneuverability might be useful - as Eldariel noted earlier, its maneuverability on ground is a weakness, so a higher maneuverability in the air is an asset. Could be done with spells, but those are higher level than available to the dragon, unfortunately.

Jon_Dahl

2016-11-13, 12:02 PM

@Jon:
In the main post, you wrote

So apparently, you expected the consensus would go in a different direction - but it actually seems to be that normally, the wizards would win against a standard gold dragon.
The question is rather not how optimized the wizards are, but how optimized the dragon is - are we allowed to select its feats? Is it allowed templates that don't change CR? etc.

How rational/enraged is the dragon? Does it have to rely on surprise? .

I was thinking that I could just leave you with the information provided in the OP and see what the consensus would be, but apparently more is asked/required.

The Wizard 1 has stolen the dragon's half-sister's Ring of Three Wishes. The gold dragon has sworn an oath on her half-sister's deathbed to recover the ring. The dragon has now, after a veeery long search, found out where the wizard lives. The dragon contacts the authorities, but they are useless. All the good guys in that area are useless. The dragon visits the wizard and says that he has exactly one hour to get that ring for him or otherwise compensate for the stolen ring. The dragon makes sure that the wizard fully understands just how powerful he is and that nothing can save him. The dragon hopes that the wizard would give him a casus belli (by ambushing him) or just compensate for the lost ring. The dragon believes wizard's explanation that the ring is used and gone, but the dragon isn't willing to give anything more than one hour to get his **** together and pay up. The dragon will use some of the gold to decorate his sister's tomb.

The Wizard 1 makes his preparations and ask his girlfriend (Wizard 2) to visit him. Their relationship is complicated so he can't tell her what is going on. To be honest, they are both ***** and they have a bad relationship, but the Wizard 2 will defend her boyfriend furiously against any and all assailants.

Manyasone

2016-11-13, 12:07 PM

Sounds to me that the gold dragon needs to make wizard 2 understand that wizard 1 is a horrible c*nt... And not worth the air he breathes. I'm rooting for the dragon here

Aharon

2016-11-14, 05:26 AM

I was thinking that I could just leave you with the information provided in the OP and see what the consensus would be, but apparently more is asked/required.

The Wizard 1 has stolen the dragon's half-sister's Ring of Three Wishes. The gold dragon has sworn an oath on her half-sister's deathbed to recover the ring. The dragon has now, after a veeery long search, found out where the wizard lives. The dragon contacts the authorities, but they are useless. All the good guys in that area are useless. The dragon visits the wizard and says that he has exactly one hour to get that ring for him or otherwise compensate for the stolen ring. The dragon makes sure that the wizard fully understands just how powerful he is and that nothing can save him. The dragon hopes that the wizard would give him a casus belli (by ambushing him) or just compensate for the lost ring. The dragon believes wizard's explanation that the ring is used and gone, but the dragon isn't willing to give anything more than one hour to get his **** together and pay up. The dragon will use some of the gold to decorate his sister's tomb.

The Wizard 1 makes his preparations and ask his girlfriend (Wizard 2) to visit him. Their relationship is complicated so he can't tell her what is going on. To be honest, they are both ***** and they have a bad relationship, but the Wizard 2 will defend her boyfriend furiously against any and all assailants.

Hm, a pity that has already happened this way. If I were the dragon, I would have asked to have the reparation delivered somewhere (place I know better and preferably have allies or safeguards at) within one hour. If it isn't delivered, I know the wizard won't compensate and have my casus belli. I then could actually prepare an assault that would hurt the wizard - like the above mentioned aerial bombardment. I could also use my wealth to actually prepare for the encounter (amount used depending on how close I was to my half-sister).

I don't want to intrude on your ideas, but I think you should keep in mind the immense life-span of dragons. You mentioned it was a veeery long search. But the dragon is already at least 100 years old (or it wouldn't be adult). It also knows it can expect to live another 1100 years or more, if it is careful. So it does have lots and lots of time to prepare this confrontation. If we go by its expected life span, preparing this battle for 12 years would be equivalent to a human with an expected life span of 100 years to prepare for a battle for 1 year. So even if it is very, very impatient, that would translate to a few days or weeks of preparation - not one hour. One hour would be the equivalent of a few minutes by the above 1:12 comparison.

(I know, I know, we don't experience time that linear - but it's still a useful approximation)