Green flame balde and booming blade?

[clash]

Are greenflame blade and booming blade cantrips OP?

Looking at greenflame blade it does essentially 1d8 weapon + up to 5 ability modifier (say +2 at level 1) + 1d8 to a second character. At level 1 this is doing 2d8 + 2 dmg ~ 11 total dmg compared to the closest comparison of acid splash which does 2d6 ~ 7 dmg

Booming blade is okay at level 1 most likely only dealing 1d8 + 2 dmg to one character for 6.5 avg dmg. Compare to Poison sprays 1d12 dmg ~ 6.5. It has the caveat that if they move the dmg increases but that seems balanced by requiring the caster to be in melee. If you are say an EK though you wont care about being in melee and Poison Spray becomes a very quickly resisted damage type.

The big issues I see though are that now we can add things like sneak attack or smite.

A level 20 Arcane trickster is suddenly doing 11d6 + 5 + 3d8 + another 4d8 if they move nearly doubling his damage output every turn. And the sorc who dipped 2 levels of Paladin for smite can suddenly add that same 3d8 to every smite attack casting 4th level spells for an easy 10d8 + 10. They just seem too abusable. To the dms out there: do you typically allow them, or disallow them?

[beargryllz]

They're melee attacks, so they're probably fine

Contrast this with a warlock using eldritch blast from a comical distance or while flying overhead

In general, I feel melee attacks should be more devastating than ranged attacks. It holds true most of the time.

Rogues don't care, they can sneak attack with a knife as easily as with a dart or crossbow.

My question for you is how do you sneak attack with a spell? If you're shouting "GREEN FIYAH BLADUUUH!" or whatever the vocal component is, wouldn't your target know you're casting magic on them and deny you the possibility of an ambush? I'm gonna need another DM to help me rule on this one.

My gut instinct is that spells do not invoke sneak attack in 5e, even if they use a weapon as the material component. Agree or disagree?

Your action is casting the spell, not attacking. You merely must qualify a successful attack in order for the spell to succeed, right?

[DracoKnight]

They're melee attacks, so they're probably fine

Contrast this with a warlock using eldritch blast from a comical distance or while flying overhead

In general, I feel melee attacks should be more devastating than ranged attacks. It holds true most of the time.

Rogues don't care, they can sneak attack with a knife as easily as with a dart or crossbow.

My question for you is how do you sneak attack with a spell? If you're shouting "GREEN FIYAH BLADUUUH!" or whatever the vocal component is, wouldn't your target know you're casting magic on them and deny you the possibility of an ambush? I'm gonna need another DM to help me rule on this one.

My gut instinct is that spells do not invoke sneak attack in 5e, even if they use a weapon as the material component. Agree or disagree?

Your action is casting the spell, not attacking. You merely must qualify a successful attack in order for the spell to succeed, right?

Sneak attack doesn't require the attack action. It requires an attack made with a finesse weapon. As part of the SCAG cantrips you make a melee weapon attack. As long as your weapon is finesse, you get Sneak Attack, granted that you meet every other qualifier.

[shuangwucanada]

My question for you is how do you sneak attack with a spell? If you're shouting "GREEN FIYAH BLADUUUH!" or whatever the vocal component is, wouldn't your target know you're casting magic on them and deny you the possibility of an ambush? I'm gonna need another DM to help me rule on this one.



"Sneak attack" is just a name of an ability, probably a bad name. It's more like a "cheap shot" (quoting my DM). If you are sneaky, you will get that cheap shot, but there are also many other ways to get this cheap shot (e.g., an ally distracting the enemy, some one aids you, swashbuckler dueling, etc.)

[beargryllz]

Sneak attack doesn't require the attack action. It requires an attack made with a finesse weapon. As part of the SCAG cantrips you make a melee weapon attack. As long as your weapon is finesse, you get Sneak Attack, granted that you meet every other qualifier.

Good point

[Grod_The_Giant]

Are greenflame blade and booming blade cantrips OP?
They occupy kind of a weird position in the game balance wise, I think. They're clearly better than corresponding options like Shocking Grasp, and you can base entire builds around them... but they're actually quite well balanced with Extra Attack. They remain roughly equal for a large stretch of the game, with the spells being better if you trigger the riders and the attack action being better if you have auxiliary boosters (Rage, Flurry of Blows, Hex, feats... even TWF, really). The spells let you play an effective melee type for a relatively small investment, but are still generally out-powered by dedicated fighters*. Even better, it's a character level based offense, meaning you can sustain a multiclass build at mid to low levels where it would otherwise suffer. It's metagame-altering, but in ways that I think are ultimately healthy for the game as a whole. The main problem, that everyone just takes one of those two spells, can I think be easily solved by writing a few more. (And, possibly, boosting touch-range cantrips; they could use a bit of a boost compared to their ranged counterparts anyway) At one point I had a project to make one of each energy type...



*I mean, you can build more heavily for the spells, playing with things like Mobile/Spell Sniper/Rogue+Booming Blade, or Draconic Sorcerer+Green Flame Blade, but... again, that's sort of the point; if you put in that sort of effort you should be good at your thing.

[famousringo]

For straight casters it's a damage boost that they get as a reward for risking their meager hit points in melee.

For smitey paladin types, it's probably not worth doing. Extra attack alone is usually better, never mind the prospect of a dual wielder smiting three times in one turn compared to once with a booming blade. I guess if you Twin BB and smite that's pretty nice, but it means you aren't focusing your damage and you're burning even more long rest resources.

For Eldritch Knights it's a small damage boost at some levels, especially nice because it makes the class feel more magical and multiclass well with casters, but it doesn't really send EKs to new heights.

For rogues, it's less of a damage boost than it seems, because it means no offhand attack to ensure you get a sneak attack on your turn, but BB sure does play nice with Cunning Action.

Edit: Oh yeah, for warlocks it brings Shillelagh tomelocks a little closer to bladelocks, but they're still no match for Extra Attack with a magical greatsword and GWM or the venerable Hex + Agonizing blast combo.

On the whole, I'd say weapon cantrips are mostly a DPR boost for pure casters, who aren't exactly DPR kings to begin with. For other classes, they open up interesting options, BB in particular being a nice control ability, but they aren't much of a power boost.

[Giant2005]

Those Cantrips do more damage than the other Cantrips even without the secondary damage. Take the secondary damage away and they are a lot more balanced.

[Zaydos]

Those Cantrips do more damage than the other Cantrips even without the secondary damage. Take the secondary damage away and they are a lot more balanced.

Lower accuracy unless you go MAD which is a massive resource cost, and even Shocking Grasp has a rider effect. Remove the secondary damage and they're just flat worse than every other cantrip in the game. Without it they deal (at 20th) 3d8 + 1d4 + Dex (15.5 + Dex) vs 4d10 from a range (21). If you get better finesse weapons than a dagger (say you're an elf) it's +1 damage, if you get rapier by being a bladesinger (you get extra attack which is better than them most of the time) or multiclassing (you lose a level of caster) you deal 4d8 + Dex (max 22.5), if you go Strength you are paying out the nose in opportunity costs.

[Toadkiller]

I have a wizard (ok she's a cleric 1 wizard 10). She's been carrying a sword all along, just cause she's an elf and "knows how to use it". At this point with a 20 int and a 16 dex there is really no reason for her to ever use it. It's just a prop. But, since none of the feats really interest me she's going to boost dex to 18 when the time comes and take booming blade as her next cantrip. It will make it just viable enough for her to use that rather than just run away if she lands in melee, which does seem to happen at least once a session. Our adversaries do tend to notice the spell caster at this point.

I figure she swings, maybe hits and then misty steps away if it comes after her there is an extra boom. Fun! Shocking grasp is probably "better" in this scenario. But this is more fun. She stands a chance to do more damage than shocking grasp, but that's pretty secondary to the fun imagery of a wizard putting down some whoop-ass. Or at least trying.

[Gastronomie]

Normal warriors need not use them.

Normal Casters suffer from low AC and HP, so again, not the best option.

And for a gish caster to use them effectively, you need good stats in at least "your weapon attacking stat", "your casting stat", and "CON" (for HP), for maximum effectiveness.

They also take up two Cantrip slots, which is actually pretty taxing. A lot of non-combat utility is lost as a result of this.

I don't see the SCAG cantrips as anything overpowered. I see them as a really well-designed pair of spells that promote versatility among characters and allow various interesting builds.

The fact anyone can get them with just a 1-level dip and/or being a High Elf also keeps certain classes from being too strong compared to the others.

[Giant2005]

Lower accuracy unless you go MAD which is a massive resource cost, and even Shocking Grasp has a rider effect. Remove the secondary damage and they're just flat worse than every other cantrip in the game. Without it they deal (at 20th) 3d8 + 1d4 + Dex (15.5 + Dex) vs 4d10 from a range (21). If you get better finesse weapons than a dagger (say you're an elf) it's +1 damage, if you get rapier by being a bladesinger (you get extra attack which is better than them most of the time) or multiclassing (you lose a level of caster) you deal 4d8 + Dex (max 22.5), if you go Strength you are paying out the nose in opportunity costs.

Those Cantrips only use a single stat too - it is a different stat, but not multiple stats. They aren't any more MAD than any other caster.
Shocking Grasp might have a rider effect, but it also does less damage (it amounts to weapon damage + ability mod vs 1d8. The former easily wins).
Even with the secondary effect gone, they still gain the potential for a rider effect of sorts. Whether that rider effect is Sneak Attack, Divine Strike, Divine Smite, a Magical Weapon, or whatever.
Firebolt does good damage (21 like you said) and at range, but GFB/BB is still superior (23 damage with a 1d8 weapon and +5 ability mod). As for compensation for being melee and not range, you have the fact that the damage is multiple damage types and any/all class/weapon effects (some of which were mentioned above).
If you take those secondary effects away, GFB/BB offer an alternate option compared to Shocking Grasp and Firebolt - each of which have their own pros and cons. They are not necessarily the superior choice but still hold their niche. That is what balance is.

[BW022]

Are greenflame blade and booming blade cantrips OP?




Looking at greenflame blade it does essentially 1d8 weapon + up to 5 ability modifier (say +2 at level 1) + 1d8 to a second character. At level 1 this is doing 2d8 + 2 dmg ~ 11 total dmg compared to the closest comparison of acid splash which does 2d6 ~ 7 dmg


I think you need to reread the spell (http://engl393-dnd5th.wikia.com/wiki/Green-Flame_Blade). It does normal weapon damage + the flame leaps to another target and does your ability modifier in damage. You need to be 5th-level because it does +1d8 damage to the target and secondary creature.

It is hard to find any sorcerer, wizard, or warlock able to use a d8 weapon. Proficiency and lack of strength typically mean d4 or d6 baring extremely specific races or bladelock 3+.

Then you need to willingly stand in melee with two or more targets. There is almost no CR creatures which a sorcerer, wizard, or warlock could realistically stand in front of two creatures. At 1st, standing in front of two gnolls. At 3rd, two bugbears, at 4th, two ogres. The caster is barely 50% likely to hit, almost impossible to drop one (8 and 3 damage vs. any of these is no likely to harm them) and their is a high chance that the caster won't survive the next round.

Even at 5th+, these damage totals are pointless. 2d8+3 (str) (primary) + 1d8+3 (chr) (secondary) is still suicide even against two ogres (CR 2, 58hp, +6, 2d8+4). Even with a 70% hit chance, it is still going to take you 7+ rounds to drop the ogre and two of them will dish out an average of 18hp of damage per round (vs. AC 16). Even with help from allies you won't last 3 rounds. And in reality, you could be fighting two hill giants (CR 5, 150hp, multi-attack, +8, 3d8+5). You are doing maybe 12 (assuming 70% hit), they are dishing out 50 a round (assuming a 70%), and they each have 4x your hit points).

Any wizard, sorcerer, or warlock would be better standing back and blasting. They simply can't take the hits -- baring blowing all these spells on defensive spells (shield, mirror imagine, etc.) which would still be better spending their spells on magic missiles and scorching rays. Most casters if forced into melee are immediately going to try to get the heck out of there -- disengage, invisibility, fight defensively, etc.

Even of EK... standing in front of those creatures won't be fun. In reality, attacking twice is probably a better deal -- more chance of hitting, get magic damage, do not need to split your damage, can focus on one attribute, etc. At least the EK has the armor, hit points, etc.




A level 20 Arcane trickster is suddenly doing 11d6 + 5 + 3d8 + another 4d8 if they move nearly doubling his damage output every turn. And the sorc who dipped 2 levels of Paladin for smite can suddenly add that same 3d8 to every smite attack casting 4th level spells for an easy 10d8 + 10. They just seem too abusable. To the dms out there: do you typically allow them, or disallow them?

Why is this abusive? Do you have any idea what CR 20 opponents are likely to be?

This is 57 damage to one (if you hit), plus 18 to another. Great. The two ancient red dragons (256hp each, multi-attack, +14, and average 51hp damage each per round). It would still take you 5 rounds to kill one (ignoring their frightful presence, lair actions, flying, not being within 5' of each other, etc.). Even with help from your party members, you are likely either dead the next round or close to it. And these are only CR 17 creatures.

[clash]

Thanks for all the good replies.



Why is this abusive? Do you have any idea what CR 20 opponents are likely to be?

This is 57 damage to one (if you hit), plus 18 to another. Great. The two ancient red dragons (256hp each, multi-attack, +14, and average 51hp damage each per round). It would still take you 5 rounds to kill one (ignoring their frightful presence, lair actions, flying, not being within 5' of each other, etc.). Even with help from your party members, you are likely either dead the next round or close to it. And these are only CR 17 creatures.

The main problem isnt comparing it to what you are doing to creatures at that level as what you can do with it compared to what you can do without it and for an AT using his bonus action to hide anyways it seems like BB is a significant damage boost. Almost a necessary one once you start allowing it.

And any caster with one level in fighter can mitigate most of the problems with being in melee and get a weapon doing 1d12 with the cantrip if they want. But even with that, Valor Bard, Warlock or Draconic Sorcerer can get up to 18 ac without much commitment if fighting with a finesse weapon. And Bard and Warlock both get the weapon proficiencies.

[CaptainSarathai]

The cantrips can be very powerful, but require a degree of optimization. Notably, you need to go Sorc3+ and burn a resource (spell points). Twin BB or Quicken BB/GFB can hit much harder than any 2 attack Martial. Yes, Rogue SA damage and Smite both stack. Yes, a Critical will double the extra D8s. Yes, you can use GWM's -5/+10 feature on it.
The other advantage which has been overlooked, is that they add typed damage. This can be used to trigger Draconic Sorc's or ULLock's +Cha to Fire.

I ran a build focused on squeezing as much from GFB as posaible. In the end, a 20th level build was throwing over 200 damage on an average usage roll*
*Assuming you hit.

For comparative purposes, that's a BM Fighter with 4a and Action Surge. The Fighter wins with slightly higher damage, but only by a small margin.

[MrStabby]

So it probably depends what you compare them to.

If you compare them to other cantrips then they are absurdly powerful. This is now to the point where in any game involving SCAG I have never, ever seen a character that could take one of these that didn't.

Comparing them to isolated abilities of other classes... is fairly counterproductive. What do you hope to achieve? If they do less damage then so what? The at will damage of casting classes being less than that of martial characters is what compensates martial characters for not getting the same spellcasting ability. It's like looking at the barbarian's ability to cast ritual spells and concluding that the class isn't overpowered 'cos wizards cast spells better.

These cantrips are not good because they are a way of doing a lot of damage, they are good because they are a way of doing moderate damage on classes that have a massive amount of non at will damage utility.



I love the concept of these spells, and they can be fun to use - they are not by themselves badly designed but they are just too easy to get for characters that are not short on utility.

[CaptainSarathai]

I love the concept of these spells, and they can be fun to use - they are not by themselves badly designed but they are just too easy to get for characters that are not short on utility.

Yeah. The whole point was to give Arcane Gish types, a shot at actually doing something.
The problem is that they handed it out to every Arcane list. That was their mistake. These should have been limited to stuff like Singer, BladeLock, EK, etc.

[Toadkiller]

I don't think it is actually that bad. It only works if you hit. If you *really* want to hit you're going to go for one of the classes with multiple attacks and use that. Or if you're primarily a caster you're going to want to cast a real spell.

It has its place, it can be awesome in that place. But there are plenty of other awesome options to pick from as well.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah. The whole point was to give Arcane Gish types, a shot at actually doing something.
The problem is that they handed it out to every Arcane list. That was their mistake. These should have been limited to stuff like Singer, BladeLock, EK, etc.
Meh, if you want to use them and not die you need to build yourself into a bit of a gish anyway (say, Fighter 1/Abjurer with a high Con and/or Tough)

[Ashrym]

I don't think it is actually that bad. It only works if you hit. If you *really* want to hit you're going to go for one of the classes with multiple attacks and use that. Or if you're primarily a caster you're going to want to cast a real spell.

Multiple attacks doesn't work with those cantrips. The cantrips require the cast a spell action and multiple attacks requires the attack action.

[RickAllison]

Multiple attacks doesn't work with those cantrips. The cantrips require the cast a spell action and multiple attacks requires the attack action.

I think the poster meant someone with multiple attacks would use those if they really wanted to hit, not about combing the two.

[CaptainSarathai]

I don't think it is actually that bad. It only works if you hit. If you *really* want to hit you're going to go for one of the classes with multiple attacks and use that. Or if you're primarily a caster you're going to want to cast a real spell.

Not really. You can easily use a Finesse Weapon, or even get your hands on Shillelagh as a cantrip using either Wis or Dex, depending on route taken.


Meh, if you want to use them and not die you need to build yourself into a bit of a gish anyway (say, Fighter 1/Abjurer with a high Con and/or Tough)
This I agree on, but you don't necessarily need armor. The build I made focused mostly on Sorcerer, and used Green Flame Blade. I added levels of Warlock and Paladin, neither of which is strictly necessary, but Warlock does make it much more robust.

6 levels of Draconic Sorcerer gives you +Cha to damage, and Quicken. You also have Ac13+Dex and 5+Con HP/level.

That's really all you need. Half Elves are awesome at this, woth the SCAG variant for Weapon Training, you can start with Dex, Con, Cha all at 16.

For me, though, I added 3-4 levels of Warlock. If UA is allowed, you go Undying Light for an additional +Cha to Fire. Otherwise, go Fiend for TempHP on kills.
This nets you Armor of Agathys, Hex, and Shillelagh, which makes Cha your Attack/Damage stat.

For icing the cake, 2+ in Paladin gets you into Medium Armor and Shield, a Fighting Style, and Smite.
The advantage with Medium Armor is that you just sink a feat into MAM and can get Ac18 without boosting Dex any higher. Shield for 20. Defense style or Duellist. Duellist puts your D8 Rapier or Shillelagh on par with a D12 weapon for damage (even more disgusting if you squeeze in Extra Attack and PAM for mundane shots)

For my build, I went Sorc8/TomeLock8/Pal4 at 20th. For max damage though, go BladeLock12/Sorc6/Pal2 and VuMan w/ GWM. Strength and Plate for AC. GWF style. At 20th you'd be pushing:

GFB: 2d6+3d8 +5(Str) +15(3xCha) +1d8(Curse) +5d8(Smite3) +10(GWM)
Quicken GFB: 2d6+9d8+30
Haste: 2d6+6d8+20

Total damage, average: 213.5 + secondary

The thing is, you give up 7th-9th spell slots, Con proficiency OR 1AC (or use a Dex weapon an Unarmored), and although you have 3 regenerating 5th level slots, you only have actual slots of a 1/3 caster. You're doing this with (as VuMan) a total of 142hp.

Also you're looking at -5 To Hit without any real bonuses, and Fire is one of the most common Resistances.
Easily overcome by taking Elemental Adept instead of GWM.

You only do that Once/Short rest (and only had Bestow Curse 1/day) but the scary thing is that you can do it every short rest for the duration of an average adventuring day. Most of the build is also online at ~10th level, after which you're just waiting for extra sources of +Cha and ASIs.

I'm working on another build that has similar "fun" with Booming Blade, by going completely MAD and swapping those Lock levels for Tempest Cleric and Storm Sorc, then focusing on Booming Blade.
However, it does this less often and for less damage.

[Willie the Duck]

The main problem isnt comparing it to what you are doing to creatures at that level as what you can do with it compared to what you can do without it and for an AT using his bonus action to hide anyways it seems like BB is a significant damage boost. Almost a necessary one once you start allowing it.

Ah, you see, that's a different question! You asked if they were OP, not whether they were better than the pre-SCAG options. Let me say it: Yes, BB and GFB are strictly better options (to perform a very specific task) than was available before SCAG was published. That is not the same as being overpowered. The role that can effectively utilize these two cantrips the best (melee gish) was rather hard to do before, and now is pretty easy. However, the only build that I can think of that makes it seem OP (sorcadin in a long-rest-friendly party) was already considered pretty high-powered.


And any caster with one level in fighter can mitigate most of the problems with being in melee and get a weapon doing 1d12 with the cantrip if they want. But even with that, Valor Bard, Warlock or Draconic Sorcerer can get up to 18 ac without much commitment if fighting with a finesse weapon. And Bard and Warlock both get the weapon proficiencies.

They are still going to be low HP combatants entering the fray on the frontlines, subjecting the concentration spells to failure, likely requiring feat investment (such as war caster), being MAD, and running into enemies who are immune or less vulnerable to their special tricks (such as an enemy that doesn't need to move to be effective vs. BB) in ways that a fighter or barbarian might not. In other words, the gishes that do this are spellcasters sacrificing investment in ASIs, spells chosen (in the case of valor bard, a really expensive one), or non-spellcasting level dips to get to do something approaching what a full-time warrior does, but a little flimsier... that's kinda what the gish is supposed to be.

[Toadkiller]

Yep. I think they balance pretty well. I'm sure that they can be broken, but so can most things if you try hard enough.

[Talionis]

Yep. I think they balance pretty well. I'm sure that they can be broken, but so can most things if you try hard enough.

It's hard to break things in fifth edition and when you do the increment isn't very much better than non broken. So broken is so relative.

The big problem was the melee cantrips in Fifth edition were underpowered compared to the ranged counter parts. Fifth edition as a whole seems loath to reward melee attacking.

The problem with the SCAG melee cantrips is they make the older melee cantrips look worse, but they are in line with ranged attacks and so they really are a fix to original Fifth Edition. I wish they would print a lot more of them because Gishes are fun to play, resource tight, and generally less powerful/impactful than ranged counterparts. You give up a lot to be a Gish and generally fighter and rogue are just better than Gishes, which is actually fine. Those classes have to be rewarding to play too.

[Davemeddlehed]

Those Cantrips do more damage than the other Cantrips even without the secondary damage. Take the secondary damage away and they are a lot more balanced.

However the secondary damage is highly conditional. How often do you run into two enemies standing side by side in combat? Booming Blade requires them to try and move(however they can still just attack you, or you provoke an opportunity attack from them when you try to get away after hitting them). Neither of these secondary damages are guaranteed at all.

[Davemeddlehed]

The cantrips can be very powerful, but require a degree of optimization. Notably, you need to go Sorc3+ and burn a resource (spell points). Twin BB or Quicken BB/GFB can hit much harder than any 2 attack Martial. Yes, Rogue SA damage and Smite both stack. Yes, a Critical will double the extra D8s. Yes, you can use GWM's -5/+10 feature on it.
The other advantage which has been overlooked, is that they add typed damage. This can be used to trigger Draconic Sorc's or ULLock's +Cha to Fire.

I ran a build focused on squeezing as much from GFB as posaible. In the end, a 20th level build was throwing over 200 damage on an average usage roll*
*Assuming you hit.

For comparative purposes, that's a BM Fighter with 4a and Action Surge. The Fighter wins with slightly higher damage, but only by a small margin.

How were you getting 200 damage out of GFB?

[Zman]

Nope, not OP in the slightest. They are competitive with other forms of damage and scale well with the game. Check my spreadsheet in my signature, I've run a lot of the viable damage options in the game and put the Melee Cantrips in context with much of the other options.

Basically, they offer viable single attack options for melee styled casters. They do really put a damper on the Extra Attack Gishes like Valor Bard, Bladesinger, but not Hex Bladelock.

[RickAllison]

How were you getting 200 damage out of GFB?

I'm guessing we are talking about a Sorcerer using a Quicken combined with a regular Twinned GFB. If we are using a greatsword with 20 Str, that is 48.5 damage on average spread across three attacks. Best I can figure is the poster is thinking of Dragon Sorc with Undying Light Lock and the fire damage boost applying to both instances of damage. With that, I got it to 205.5 average. I am not sure whether applying it to both instances is legitimate or not, but that was the only way it worked for me.

[Davemeddlehed]

I'm guessing we are talking about a Sorcerer using a Quicken combined with a regular Twinned GFB. If we are using a greatsword with 20 Str, that is 48.5 damage on average spread across three attacks. Best I can figure is the poster is thinking of Dragon Sorc with Undying Light Lock and the fire damage boost applying to both instances of damage. With that, I got it to 205.5 average. I am not sure whether applying it to both instances is legitimate or not, but that was the only way it worked for me.

GFB can't be twinned, though. You can only twin spells that are incapable of targeting more than one creature at a time.

Not to mention you wouldn't be eligible for using the remaining melee attacks with the great sword, because casting GFB wouldn't be using the attack action, it's using the cast a spell action.

[RickAllison]

GFB can't be twinned, though. You can only twin spells that are incapable of targeting more than one creature at a time.

Not to mention you wouldn't be eligible for using the remaining melee attacks with the great sword, because casting GFB wouldn't be using the attack action, it's using the cast a spell action.

Like I said, that is the only way I could work out to get that much damage. And I never mentioned getting extra attacks. In fact, none of the parts of the build gave that ability.

[Arentak]

I like GFB on a high elf cleric with the +1d8 at 8th, and +2d8 at 14th domain feature.

That can result in a primary target hit of 1d6+3d8+5(dex) and secondary target hit 3d8+3(int) at 17th.

No feat needed. The only loss is a racial boost for wisdom. And if you go Tempest, Death or War, your 1d6 shortsword an be a 1d8 rapierinstead.

Its comparable damage to a melee(less then by a lot if you only have a single target). And you still have spells.

[CaptainSarathai]

How were you getting 200 damage out of GFB?

That's because of the build that I ran. It's not *all* from GFB. The build was UL Warlock, DracSorc, and Paladin.

5th level Bestow Curse (no con)
Con on Haste
GFB hits +Str +2*Cha +GWM +Smite
Quicken it again for the same
Haste attack (no GFB here) +Smite

That's what I mean - that was me breaking it as much as I could, and that's a Nova. You're burning up Sorcery Points, Spell Slots, 1/day Bestow Curse...
You can maintain it pretty well for a Nova, if you're good with resource management.
Compared to that, straight BatMaster Fighters can Nova for closer to 300 if they Action Surge and dump off Superiority Dice.

[famousringo]

That's because of the build that I ran. It's not *all* from GFB. The build was UL Warlock, DracSorc, and Paladin.

5th level Bestow Curse (no con)
Con on Haste
GFB hits +Str +2*Cha +GWM +Smite
Quicken it again for the same
Haste attack (no GFB here) +Smite

That's what I mean - that was me breaking it as much as I could, and that's a Nova. You're burning up Sorcery Points, Spell Slots, 1/day Bestow Curse...
You can maintain it pretty well for a Nova, if you're good with resource management.
Compared to that, straight BatMaster Fighters can Nova for closer to 300 if they Action Surge and dump off Superiority Dice.

And it's not really a nova if you've already spent two rounds casting Bestow Curse and Haste, is it?

[Waazraath]

I like GFB on a high elf cleric with the +1d8 at 8th, and +2d8 at 14th domain feature.

That can result in a primary target hit of 1d6+3d8+5(dex) and secondary target hit 3d8+3(int) at 17th.

No feat needed. The only loss is a racial boost for wisdom. And if you go Tempest, Death or War, your 1d6 shortsword an be a 1d8 rapierinstead.

Its comparable damage to a melee(less then by a lot if you only have a single target). And you still have spells.

This. You can use BB and GFB with the free cantrip you get with high elf, half elf variant (from SCAG) or variant human (magic initiate feat for a familiar, good enough by itself to consider the cantrip a 'bonus' imo). For the cost of nothing, a class that is semi-melee and focussed on 1 attack (cleric and rogue) you get FREE between 1d8-3d8 damage, and a situational 1d8-4d8 on top of that (or 1d8+int - 3d8+int for GFB). That's an enormous benefit for as good as zero cost.

[BillyBobShorton]

Mobile feat Wood Elf AT can use the BB w/o much worry of being hit.

[Davemeddlehed]

That's because of the build that I ran. It's not *all* from GFB. The build was UL Warlock, DracSorc, and Paladin.

5th level Bestow Curse (no con)
Con on Haste
GFB hits +Str +2*Cha +GWM +Smite
Quicken it again for the same
Haste attack (no GFB here) +Smite

That's what I mean - that was me breaking it as much as I could, and that's a Nova. You're burning up Sorcery Points, Spell Slots, 1/day Bestow Curse...
You can maintain it pretty well for a Nova, if you're good with resource management.
Compared to that, straight BatMaster Fighters can Nova for closer to 300 if they Action Surge and dump off Superiority Dice.

So in essence you weren't breaking GFB. You were just breaking an obscure build of sorts. GFB was just kind of an innocent bystander of sorts.

[CaptainSarathai]

And it's not really a nova if you've already spent two rounds casting Bestow Curse and Haste, is it?
I've never been under the impression that a Nova had to be the first round. You can still be doing things during those other rounds, it's not like your average damage suffers that much. Quicken Haste up first and you can still make 2 attacks that round and the next.


So in essence you weren't breaking GFB. You were just breaking an obscure build of sorts. GFB was just kind of an innocent bystander of sorts.
Kind of. The thing about GFB/BB is that they specifically include a melee attack. You can use that to trigger other effects.
I can't cast Eldritch Blast and attach GWM or a Smite to it.
Likewise, a basic melee attack doesn't count as a spell to trigger things like the +Cha to damage.
Finally, BB/GFB were designed with single-attack classes in mind, to help them keep up with the damage dealt by classes with Extra Attack. But by using Quicken or Twin, you can now do effectively double what seems to have been intended by the spell.
That build wouldn't have been possible without GFB. Sure, I could use Paladin's Smite spells to trigger +Cha, but those are 1st level and burn up resources, plus require concentration and only work on the first hit.
---

Also, if you want to make Booming Blade better, take some levels of Rogue, or take Mobile. Now you can hit them and move away safely.
If you're tanking, take Warcaster. It's more damage than you'd do with a regular weapon OA, and it's on par with Sentinel for making people stay put. If a boss is willing to take the damage he might move through, but I've killed more than a few enemies because they thought they could stomach the extra hit.

[famousringo]

I've never been under the impression that a Nova had to be the first round. You can still be doing things during those other rounds, it's not like your average damage suffers that much. Quicken Haste up first and you can still make 2 attacks that round and the next.

The Smiting and Quickening are nova, but buffing and debuffing are the opposite of nova. They're an investment in damage in the future, rather than damage right now.

Then again, maybe it's the nova I should be framing as an investment. Damage now tends to yield better returns than damage later, killing enemies before they can attack, debuff and outmaneuver you.

200 damage in round 1 is worth more than 200 damage in round 3. Will there even be adjacent enemies for GFB's cleave effect to hit in round 3? Is that guy you Cursed still standing, or did the rogue crit backstab him to oblivion and you basically spent a 5th level slot for 2d8 damage? Maybe you fail a WIS save in round 2 and now you're Charmed. Or failed your concentration check and you lose the whole round to the toxic Haste dump.

So yeah, I don't consider it a nova unless it's pretty much on-demand. Or at least, a battlemaster's nova is worth more because he can throw down all those attacks and superiority dice right at the start, dropping foes and establishing the momentum of the fight, rather than slowly building to a crescendo, as you seem to advocate.

[CaptainSarathai]

Well, on-demand for 146, just GFB+Smite, (and GWF+GWM) Quickened again. And that's single-target, not counting the secondary.
It's not the most blown-out numbers you'll ever get. It's less sustainable than Quickened Agonizing Blasts, and it does half the damage you'd see from a BattleMaster.

Similar numbers can be reached by swapping the levels of Warlock out for Tempest Cleric with their Channel Divinity for maxxing out Thunder Damage. Quickened or Twinned booming blade, Smite, Divine Strike, style and feat would lay out 141.5 damage.

[Davemeddlehed]

Well, on-demand for 146, just GFB+Smite, (and GWF+GWM) Quickened again. And that's single-target, not counting the secondary.
It's not the most blown-out numbers you'll ever get. It's less sustainable than Quickened Agonizing Blasts, and it does half the damage you'd see from a BattleMaster.

Similar numbers can be reached by swapping the levels of Warlock out for Tempest Cleric with their Channel Divinity for maxxing out Thunder Damage. Quickened or Twinned booming blade, Smite, Divine Strike, style and feat would lay out 141.5 damage.

That's not especially impressive for a nova. BerzBarb5/DevPal3 with a greatsword and GWM will get you similar results for less effort.

Sacred Weapon on greatsword
Frenzy as a Bonus action

Those can be done pre-combat if you know combat is about to begin.

2d6+3(STR)+3(CHA)+2d8(DS)+10(GWM)+2(Rage)=36 average damage, 46 max
2d6+3(STR)+3(CHA)+2d8(DS)+10(GWM)+2(Rage)=36 average damage, 46 max
Action Surge
2d6+3(STR)+3(CHA)+2d8(DS)+10(GWM)+2(Rage)=36 average damage, 46 max
2d6+3(STR)+3(CHA)+10(GWM)+2(Rage)=26 average damage, 36 max
2d6+3(STR)+3(CHA)+10(GWM)+2(Rage)=26 average damage, 36 max

160 average, 210 max damage in a round.

[CaptainSarathai]

That's not especially impressive for a nova. BerzBarb5/DevPal3 with a greatsword and GWM will get you similar results for less effort.


Sacred Weapon on greatsword
Frenzy as a Bonus action

Those can be done pre-combat if you know combat is about to begin.

2d6+3(STR)+3(CHA)+2d8(DS)+10(GWM)+2(Rage)=36 average damage, 46 max
2d6+3(STR)+3(CHA)+2d8(DS)+10(GWM)+2(Rage)=36 average damage, 46 max
Action Surge
2d6+3(STR)+3(CHA)+2d8(DS)+10(GWM)+2(Rage)=36 average damage, 46 max
2d6+3(STR)+3(CHA)+10(GWM)+2(Rage)=26 average damage, 36 max
2d6+3(STR)+3(CHA)+10(GWM)+2(Rage)=26 average damage, 36 max

160 average, 210 max damage in a round.

And that's why I'm not saying that GFB/BB are broken.
Although, you're not adding the potential rider damage into the mix (+37 for GFB, +36 for BB)
The GFB/BB also has the option of spreading damage out, rather than just committing to the Nova, and also has the benefit of waiting for a Crit to determine if they want to sink resources (Smite/Channel Divinity)

It's not a better build, and it's certainly more complicated, plus using questionable UA stuff. It's not broken. The only eyebrow raiser is that you're doing that damage with a spell-caster, and it's keeping up with a martial. It's that extra utility that makes GFB/BB seem a bit skewed; suddenly we're back to a place where Casters can potentially out-swordfight the swordfighters.

[Davemeddlehed]

And that's why I'm not saying that GFB/BB are broken.
Although, you're not adding the potential rider damage into the mix (+37 for GFB, +36 for BB)
The GFB/BB also has the option of spreading damage out, rather than just committing to the Nova, and also has the benefit of waiting for a Crit to determine if they want to sink resources (Smite/Channel Divinity)

It's not a better build, and it's certainly more complicated, plus using questionable UA stuff. It's not broken. The only eyebrow raiser is that you're doing that damage with a spell-caster, and it's keeping up with a martial. It's that extra utility that makes GFB/BB seem a bit skewed; suddenly we're back to a place where Casters can potentially out-swordfight the swordfighters.

Which part of it was using questionable UA stuff? Both those subclasses are right out of the basic rules. The only thing I didn't remember to add was Fighter 2 in the mix(for the action surge), but in my defense, it was late.

My point was to illustrate that GFB/BB aren't broken at all. I feel that point is illustrated by the fact that a level 10 barbarian/paladin/fighter with nothing other than low level abilities can out-damage spell slots and sorcery points being burned up, for a turn or two before actually using either cantrip for a pseudo-nova type situation.

I didn't quote you originally because I feel the cantrips are overpowered(I don't). I quoted you because I couldn't think of a way for either of them to be pulling in 200 damage in a round. It just sort of spiraled out from there lol