Reflections on a campaign entering the home stretch

[MrFahrenheit]

Hi all,

So maybe about a year or so ago, I posted reflections on an ongoing campaign I was/am still running. The party was around level 8 when I posted it, and they all just got to 16 this past session, so I figured I'd share some further reflections:

1. I implemented a simple fix for the standard human: disallow the variant, but allow the standard to swap out any given ability +1 for a skill proficiency (EDIT: yes I know +1/+1/4 skills = vhuman with skilled feat. The house rule offers you more versatility than just that, and even if a player did that, they could still take the skilled feat later on). I also instituted a house rule that you have to have more levels in any one given class than you do number of classes, the latter of which is capped at six total. So you can't even MC until CL 4. Moving into my next campaign, I plan on keeping the former and nixing the latter.

2. Early on, a couple (or even solo) bad guys represent a good challenge for the party. Mid-game (say, levels 8-12), denying rests or throwing several minions alongside a boss keeps the challenge up (owed to bounded accuracy). The problem comes late in the game (13-16), when you need to do both in order to keep combat challenging and interesting. On the one hand, the party has become quite used to saving their long-rest-dependent powers and rationing as best as possible, but on the other hand, starting around CR 13, monsters begin reliably getting legendary actions and saves. "Oh you just hit the beholder? Eye ray. Nailed the dragon with an arrow? Tail slap vs the tank since you're too far. Marilith failed vs your banishment spell? Jk, she succeeded. Btw watch out for those vrocks she's with; they pack one helluva punch." Yet at the same time, the solos can often be an easy fight, even for an exhausted party, if alone. But as soon as you do the old trick of throwing in minions, then the scales suddenly shift in the complete opposite direction and a PC will almost certainly die, rest regardless. I was answered briefly in another thread, but to those who've gotten Volo's already, I ask (for greater detail): did WOTC make an attempt at adding more higher level monsters to address the current gap? High level mooks (read: no legendary actions/saves, but make up for it in other areas, e.g., sheer damage) would be much appreciated. I'll be getting my copy before next session; in the mean time, keeping my fingers crossed since I'm concerned what I'll find when the party levels up next and starts heading for the end game.

3. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the classes are all extremely well balanced if you understand and play to the role of the overall class (vs the subclass). Barbarians can dish out damage, and they're most certainly front liners...but they're more meat shield than tank. A trickery cleric isn't a rogue - he's a cleric. But he synergizes nicely with the party sneak, often acting as a kind of coach to the relevant PC. With that in mind, I'll admit I'm not sure what to make of the new ranger hubbub tbh, as I thought the ranger played fine before, regardless of subclass. So much of the hate toward it I feel was due to how the class was both portrayed in the phb, and misconceptions due to how it worked in earlier editions. The original ranger wasn't as easy to understand as the full plated rogue known as a paladin (think about it - the smite mechanic is similar to sneak attack's), nor was it as DPR focused as it was portrayed. Rather, if the paladin is a diet rogue, the ranger is a diet Druid: its primary role was always control, regardless of subclass. It could do a little more damage, or a little more support, but it wasn't built for a straight up DPR competition. WOTC just made it look that way. All this being said, even the slightest one level dip outside a single class can drastically change the way a character ought to be played.

Well that's about it for now. Hoping to wrap up the campaign before summer; will be the first one I've ever brought to a natural end.

[NecroDancer]

Just wait for a PC to cast forcecage on the BBEG. You will truly know rage.

[mgshamster]

Can you go into more elaborations and thoughts for high level challenges?

I'll be running my first high level campaign soon (DM'd plenty of games, but this will be my first above level 15).

[MrFahrenheit]

Just wait for a PC to cast forcecage on the BBEG. You will truly know rage.

Legendary saves vs single spell slots at higher tiers seem to present a problem unless the party consists of a ton of casters (which mine doesn't ATM).

[MrFahrenheit]

Can you go into more elaborations and thoughts for high level challenges?

I'll be running my first high level campaign soon (DM'd plenty of games, but this will be my first above level 15).

So the trick is to find the right mix of goons and high CR baddies per combat encounter, plus deny the PCs frequent rests. The problem is that this is very deadly once monsters get legendary actions each turn. But at the same time, a solo even three CRs higher than the average party CL is still no match as it can get ganged up on fast. So you need to tax the PCs' resources. Maybe if you're throwing in CR 1/2s and the like, which to me doesn't make much sense (why would the enemy general be surrounded solely by privates?), it's a death trap. I'm still struggling to find the right balance too.

EDIT: one thing I'd forgotten but that kind of works is to throw two or at most three boss monsters that are at or just above CR for an appropriate challenge. But if you as DM get fatigued, you'll start forgetting legendary actions, making the combat much easier. Additionally, a mates pair of dragons, or mummy triad doesn't always make sense in game. So by design this kind of encounter can only be used sparingly.

[MrStabby]

Legendary saves vs single spell slots at higher tiers seem to present a problem unless the party consists of a ton of casters (which mine doesn't ATM).

I wouldn't say it's a problem... but it does highlight how very, very differently encounters can play out depending on party composition. It also highlights how all/nothing some spells are.

I certainly agree about the high level stuff and needing support minions. My main guys are almost always homebrew but I am very liberal with handing out legendary saves (although with a 2 tier system. Mooks get nothing, senior henchmen get 1, major antagonists get 3.

Mobility gets more and more important. Where things can go south for either the party or the bad guys with one spell or a single round of combat from a nova build fighter keeping this from happening through range limitations, cover, walls, counterspells etc. is a really big deal.

[MrFahrenheit]

Mobility gets more and more important. Where things can go south for either the party or the bad guys with one spell or a single round of combat from a nova build fighter keeping this from happening through range limitations, cover, walls, counterspells etc. is a really big deal.

I would add initiative too. If it was important before, it's super critical now.

That being said, I am VERY pleased with the fact that high level full casters are not the be-all/end-all of their party, as had been the case in earlier editions.

[NecroDancer]

Legendary saves vs single spell slots at higher tiers seem to present a problem unless the party consists of a ton of casters (which mine doesn't ATM).

Forcecage dosent get a save, if the enemy can't teleport out then they are stuck in it.

[TrinculoLives]

I'm curious as to whether the added mobility of high-level characters has made it more difficult for you to anticipate their next move. A group of 5th-level characters can only go so far in a day. But when the spellcasters get up there and they start zooming around from one region of the continent to another does this pose a problem in terms of prep?

Not to mention, of course, when planar travel becomes possible.

[MrFahrenheit]

I'm curious as to whether the added mobility of high-level characters has made it more difficult for you to anticipate their next move. A group of 5th-level characters can only go so far in a day. But when the spellcasters get up there and they start zooming around from one region of the continent to another does this pose a problem in terms of prep?

Not to mention, of course, when planar travel becomes possible.

This hasn't been an issue for me, not so much because it isn't an option available to the party, so much as there's no caster with the relevant spells. In any event, I'm afb, so does the highest level teleportation spell not still require having been to or at least seen the location?

[MrStabby]

I'm curious as to whether the added mobility of high-level characters has made it more difficult for you to anticipate their next move. A group of 5th-level characters can only go so far in a day. But when the spellcasters get up there and they start zooming around from one region of the continent to another does this pose a problem in terms of prep?

Not to mention, of course, when planar travel becomes possible.

For some things yes, this can pose a preparation problem but I found that if you have the antagonists be proficient in divination it helps, so they can track the PCs. This means the antagonists can go after them. So yes, the PCs can teleport to a new city, yes you need to build the encounters there but the first encounter can still be the agents of the bad guy after them. If you prepare that kind of encounter then you can pull out that ambush almost anywhere and use it to buy time to tie in the other features of the location.

The big issue I have is gate. Going to a hostile plane with appropriate protection and gating in someone you don't like into a room full of traps and readied actions is very powerful. There are some ways round it but it feels a bit contrived sometimes.

The teleportation thing doesn't imbalance the game but it does limit the types of challenges you can put in front of your players. No more can you have long quests to get somewhere and defeat and avoid the enemies along the way. You more from path /are based adventures to point based adventures.

High level casters are not the be all and end all of encounters you do - not by the long way however they ARE the be all and end all of the encounters the players chose to do and often how they do them.

[MrFahrenheit]

High level casters are not the be all and end all of encounters you do - not by the long way however they ARE the be all and end all of the encounters the players chose to do and often how they do them.

You mean because of the teleportation spells?

On another note, monsters at high CRs are almost all intelligent to some decree. The problem this entails as a DM is that they begin to think more like players than like earlier-on monsters. Meaning they'll pick on the party's casters, just as much as smart PCs tend to go after enemy casters. For the casters' players who take the game too seriously and/or are relatively new to d&d (at this point in my game, it means this is their first campaign), they will get aggravated at the fact that they are now consistently target #1 for each team of bad guys, who try to out-maneuver the supposedly "obvious" choice of tanks in an attempt to bring them down.

[MrStabby]

You mean because of the teleportation spells?



Well not just teleportation spells.

At the low end there are spells available at low levels that use up the highest level spell slot, but those resources become less significant at high levels. Things like caster making the whole party fly. At low levels it leaves you depleted at your destination at higher levels you blew a few low level spell slots to avoid whatever encounters there may have been on the way.


The other encounter avoiding spells are divination. Solve the mystery type quests are now much harder for the DM without invoking special rules. Here again, just the expendability of lower level slots changes the game. No longer are the ranger or rogue needed for scouting - burn a spell slot on arcane eye and you don't ever need to encounter some enemies or discover certain traps.

High level adventures are fun, and they can be balanced and fun for everyone but they need a bit of care. You want to allow PCs to get practical benefits from all the abilities they have invested in during the course of the campaign. Your barbarian with great climbing skills should be able to use them in a game where Fly can almost be cast at will - so climb becomes not about climbing encounters and scaling mountains but about climbing on top of monsters and encounters that need people to get to certain places during an encounter whilst concentrating on other things. Those abilities that make characters good scouts should have a purpose in a campaign after low cost divination spells come online and after invisibility competes with a good stealth skill.

Liberal use of lowish level caster mooks capable of counterspell and dispel magic work well-mundane ways of doing the same thing maintain value then.

[MrFahrenheit]

Liberal use of lowish level caster mooks capable of counterspell and dispel magic work well-mundane ways of doing the same thing maintain value then.

This...is genius. I can remember a time when four party members had counter spell at the same time (three eventually died, and one retrained; likely two of the three dead ones will be rezzed though). Enemy casters were all made chumps by this unholy triad.

Definitely picking up some lower level mooks again moving forward, only this time I'll need to be sure they can cast third level spells...and retraining one of said spells into counter spell.

I also instituted a rule for determining how your character decides whether or not he wants to be resurrected: player rolls a d20. If the spell is cast from a ninth level slot, the character's soul says no on a roll of 1. If cast from an 8th level, it's a roll of 2 or less. Etc. etc. That base line is impacted though: +1 if the character had any levels in cleric, monk, paladin or warlock (wanting to be with deity/selling soul). + another 1 if the character died on a different plane of existence than he was born, -1 (though can't go below base) for every four levels spent with the party. There are a few other rules there, but this definitely makes the players still sweat deaths, even at high levels.