Vaz
2016-11-08, 12:51 AM
Just had a look at another thread, which dealt with killing Asmodeus, and it gave me flashbacks in how badly we got bent over, but we were woefully underlevelled (ECL19). Anyone able to come up with a theory craft party able to give him a decent run for his money PreEpic, bonus points for not running straight to stuff like Chaingating Solar's, Arbitrary Wish Loops, Epic Spellcasting Prior to ECL20 (so no Epic Spellcasting by Gating in a Great Wyrm Dragon etc) Pseudo-Infinite Stats , Diplomancing a Deity, or Pun-Pun, please. Essentially, things that are likely to get accepted at a capable and aware of CharOp trick DM's table, and don't involve everything else doing your heavy lifting for you (within reason, Summons, even Gating is allowed, of course).
Technically, those are all legal, but this is more to try and show that things can be possible without going to easy mode cheese. Please feel free to use what variants you feel comfortable with, and obviously, 3.5 is intended, and I'm not so aware of Pathfinder. Rather than clogging up the question over what's legal or not, I'd prefer it if the idea was posted and then discussed afterwards.
The assumption is made that the Aspect is aware of your intentions (unless you have a specific way to ensure that he cannot use his abilities to learn of that) due to his Scrying, Intelligence, Knowledge, and that you're a High powered group of individuals, alongside high knowledge checks, but his Hubris will not allow him to specifically prepare for your arrival, and is used entirely as listed within the FC2 for stats and spells, and that you must go to Hell to fight him. He may or may not have prepared the ground beforehand by calling in his Hellish Horde and/or Summon Baatezu beforehand. It's up to you.
I had a little write up in the other thread, copy pasted here (and so includes some notes appropriate to that), but as my game is now starting, I'm going to have to come back to it later.
This is written with the assumption that you're fighting Asmodeus in Hell, and he knows about you (Int 28, Knowledge Arcana, Religion, and Planes +44 minimum, Greater Scrying), and your backstory).
So, first things first. Melee wise. 32HD, with an Attack Bonus of +51, dealing 49 damage MINIMUM per hit (again, assuming you're all good). As a Large creature, he has 10ft reach. With an AC of 50, you're literally looking at a full BAB character with 34 Str (18 base, +6 item, +5 level, +5 book) and a +5 Weapon hitting only 45% of their attacks. Should you make any sort of headway against his 432HP, he has Regeneration 13. I'm going to assume that since you're attacking Asmodeus, and preparing to do so (and that in his hubris, he lets you prepare), you'll have Good aligned weapons, but even then, after over half of your attacks miss unless hitting his Touch AC (Wand of Wraithstrike?), he's healing back 13HP a turn, and he has Heal, Mass Heal, Cure Critical Wounds, Two Cure Moderate Wounds prepared AND Restoration, so he has around 400 points of healing in addition to his Regen, if he wishes to do so.
Before even including the Reverie of Nessus from the Rod; 1/day Immediate Action, for 3 rounds, he becomes encased in a wall of force, surrounded by an Anti Magic Sphere (not including Asmodeus); although this gives you time to prepare, it not only instantly Heals him back to full and instantly regrows all of his severed limbs, but it gets rid of unwanted non-determinate spells, effects, diseases, and physical maladies, AND gives him back all of his abilities as if he's rested a day, and it's triggered instantly without need for activation if he gets affected by an unwanted enchantment spell. Going by the assumption that the Rod is not included within "his abilities", and he cannot then re-tailor his spells to be more damaging, this guy is looking at having around 1200-1400 HP. Throw in that when you attempt to attack Asmodeus (with the assumption that attack also means including him within a spells' area of effect even if it's not centred on him), you must pass a DC32 Will Save, or turn helpless for a round (and it's not Mind Affecting, either!), opening you up to CDG.
So, he's gone through all of that, and you're going to kill him next turn, what does he do? Word of Recall's.
Then you've got to look at getting there. He can fly 120ft, and his maneuverability is Perfect. If he doesn't want to be engaged, he won't be engaged, and his turning circle is essentially BETTER THAN YOU. Essentially, unless you also have some way of getting Perfect Maneuverability, or can force him to stay in one place, he's always be out of your Arc. Combined with Invisibility Purge, and a Spot check of +46, if you move while Invisible, he'll be able to pinpoint your location (DC40 to pinpoint an active moving invisible creature), so he can always place himself (Int 32 with Foxes Cunning up) in a place where a typical flying creature cannot get to him during their combination of Turning/Diving/Climbing rates. Only another creature with 60ft or better Perfect movement has a chance of getting there. That's provided that you've got through the 200ft Radius aura of Repulsion of course.
Should you get close to him, you have to resist a DC36 Aura, or submit to his will (Suggestion) for a day. Hopefully, you'll have some way of immunity to Mind Affecting (get your Wizard to craft some scrolls of it in the run up to the fight). In addition to which, he has a 30ft Slow Gaze (again, DC36), which then forces a -2 penalty, including your saving throws which is most scary. Not only that, he can force Fear and Weakness on you; that's a 6-11 penalty to your strength, and panics (as in, drop everything you hold, and run the opposite way, as well as taking additional penalties to saves). If you still have any chance of getting close to him, he has access to Imprisonment; DC30, or in the case of you, his bloodline, DC34 effectively, to take you out of the fight, a CL20 Energy Drain (No Save, -2d4 levels), followed by CL20 Blasphemy. Assuming you're 20HD, he's Dazed and Weakened you (Daze for 1 round, so no action, and then -2d6 strength (combined with his Enfeeble Gaze? -8 to -23 strength) at the least, or potentially Paralyzed you for a few minutes, leaving you helpless, again, ripe for CDG'ing - these are all no save effects, by the way. Because it's Blasphemy, and you're in Hell, it would also force a Save or be banished back to your homeplane; but he can choose to Dimensional Anchor one of your party, leaving them ripe for the picking, before using Soul Bind to keep a dead party member dead. if Blasphemy doesn't work, there's also Dismissal and Dictum if they're not Lawful.
There is Greater Command also, although Mind Affecting, which can split a party up; making one approach, one flee, one fall, and another Drop (which then has their stuff stolen).
As to fighting him, it's unlikely you'll ever have a chance to do so alone, unless once more, his hubris lets you fight your way through a horde of devils beforehand. Literally. Gate, Hellish Horde (again, presuming he knows you're coming, has let you prepare, and has cast this prior), Summon Monster III and IV, and Summon Baatezu 3/day.
That's not even the least of it though; even though Summons do not allow nested Summons, they can bring other "adds" to a fight themselves; a Pit Fiend (Summon Baatezu) has Create Undead at will, inside Desecrate (Asmodeus' Spell), which may have you facing other former challengers, but tacked onto the mummy chassis or Bone/Corpse/Curst Creatures. Or further nesting with Necroplasm to create spawn, and Deathshead's can Dominate opponents they're grappling. Aspect of Dispater has Polymorph for random Lemure's, Aspects of Belial can Geas/Quest or Dominate Monster for the party, while Fierna is limited to Dominate Person. Aspects of Levistus has Amnesia Touch to mess with the party to turn them to one side. Glasya also has Polymorph for random noob Devil's, Dominate Person, AND Dominate Monster. Baalzebul and Mephistopheles has Geas/Quest, while Aspect of Kurtulkmak can CALL in a 12HD Dragon as a spell (there are plenty of handbooks on how a Dragon can be optimized, especially without LA to worry about), although is otherwise much lower OP than the other aspects. Of course, you've also got Gate which can bring in anything you want, including Chain Gating.
You've got all of this to deal with, and I'm running out of time. However, I've barely scratch his other damage potential. Good luck. I'll look forward to raising your corpse.
I know that CR27 vs ECL20 is a bit of a stretch, but it's doable, and you're a group of 20th level characters. This is simply a thought exercise, no prizes, except maybe the undying adoration of something from somewhere at a time to be later determined.
Technically, those are all legal, but this is more to try and show that things can be possible without going to easy mode cheese. Please feel free to use what variants you feel comfortable with, and obviously, 3.5 is intended, and I'm not so aware of Pathfinder. Rather than clogging up the question over what's legal or not, I'd prefer it if the idea was posted and then discussed afterwards.
The assumption is made that the Aspect is aware of your intentions (unless you have a specific way to ensure that he cannot use his abilities to learn of that) due to his Scrying, Intelligence, Knowledge, and that you're a High powered group of individuals, alongside high knowledge checks, but his Hubris will not allow him to specifically prepare for your arrival, and is used entirely as listed within the FC2 for stats and spells, and that you must go to Hell to fight him. He may or may not have prepared the ground beforehand by calling in his Hellish Horde and/or Summon Baatezu beforehand. It's up to you.
I had a little write up in the other thread, copy pasted here (and so includes some notes appropriate to that), but as my game is now starting, I'm going to have to come back to it later.
This is written with the assumption that you're fighting Asmodeus in Hell, and he knows about you (Int 28, Knowledge Arcana, Religion, and Planes +44 minimum, Greater Scrying), and your backstory).
So, first things first. Melee wise. 32HD, with an Attack Bonus of +51, dealing 49 damage MINIMUM per hit (again, assuming you're all good). As a Large creature, he has 10ft reach. With an AC of 50, you're literally looking at a full BAB character with 34 Str (18 base, +6 item, +5 level, +5 book) and a +5 Weapon hitting only 45% of their attacks. Should you make any sort of headway against his 432HP, he has Regeneration 13. I'm going to assume that since you're attacking Asmodeus, and preparing to do so (and that in his hubris, he lets you prepare), you'll have Good aligned weapons, but even then, after over half of your attacks miss unless hitting his Touch AC (Wand of Wraithstrike?), he's healing back 13HP a turn, and he has Heal, Mass Heal, Cure Critical Wounds, Two Cure Moderate Wounds prepared AND Restoration, so he has around 400 points of healing in addition to his Regen, if he wishes to do so.
Before even including the Reverie of Nessus from the Rod; 1/day Immediate Action, for 3 rounds, he becomes encased in a wall of force, surrounded by an Anti Magic Sphere (not including Asmodeus); although this gives you time to prepare, it not only instantly Heals him back to full and instantly regrows all of his severed limbs, but it gets rid of unwanted non-determinate spells, effects, diseases, and physical maladies, AND gives him back all of his abilities as if he's rested a day, and it's triggered instantly without need for activation if he gets affected by an unwanted enchantment spell. Going by the assumption that the Rod is not included within "his abilities", and he cannot then re-tailor his spells to be more damaging, this guy is looking at having around 1200-1400 HP. Throw in that when you attempt to attack Asmodeus (with the assumption that attack also means including him within a spells' area of effect even if it's not centred on him), you must pass a DC32 Will Save, or turn helpless for a round (and it's not Mind Affecting, either!), opening you up to CDG.
So, he's gone through all of that, and you're going to kill him next turn, what does he do? Word of Recall's.
Then you've got to look at getting there. He can fly 120ft, and his maneuverability is Perfect. If he doesn't want to be engaged, he won't be engaged, and his turning circle is essentially BETTER THAN YOU. Essentially, unless you also have some way of getting Perfect Maneuverability, or can force him to stay in one place, he's always be out of your Arc. Combined with Invisibility Purge, and a Spot check of +46, if you move while Invisible, he'll be able to pinpoint your location (DC40 to pinpoint an active moving invisible creature), so he can always place himself (Int 32 with Foxes Cunning up) in a place where a typical flying creature cannot get to him during their combination of Turning/Diving/Climbing rates. Only another creature with 60ft or better Perfect movement has a chance of getting there. That's provided that you've got through the 200ft Radius aura of Repulsion of course.
Should you get close to him, you have to resist a DC36 Aura, or submit to his will (Suggestion) for a day. Hopefully, you'll have some way of immunity to Mind Affecting (get your Wizard to craft some scrolls of it in the run up to the fight). In addition to which, he has a 30ft Slow Gaze (again, DC36), which then forces a -2 penalty, including your saving throws which is most scary. Not only that, he can force Fear and Weakness on you; that's a 6-11 penalty to your strength, and panics (as in, drop everything you hold, and run the opposite way, as well as taking additional penalties to saves). If you still have any chance of getting close to him, he has access to Imprisonment; DC30, or in the case of you, his bloodline, DC34 effectively, to take you out of the fight, a CL20 Energy Drain (No Save, -2d4 levels), followed by CL20 Blasphemy. Assuming you're 20HD, he's Dazed and Weakened you (Daze for 1 round, so no action, and then -2d6 strength (combined with his Enfeeble Gaze? -8 to -23 strength) at the least, or potentially Paralyzed you for a few minutes, leaving you helpless, again, ripe for CDG'ing - these are all no save effects, by the way. Because it's Blasphemy, and you're in Hell, it would also force a Save or be banished back to your homeplane; but he can choose to Dimensional Anchor one of your party, leaving them ripe for the picking, before using Soul Bind to keep a dead party member dead. if Blasphemy doesn't work, there's also Dismissal and Dictum if they're not Lawful.
There is Greater Command also, although Mind Affecting, which can split a party up; making one approach, one flee, one fall, and another Drop (which then has their stuff stolen).
As to fighting him, it's unlikely you'll ever have a chance to do so alone, unless once more, his hubris lets you fight your way through a horde of devils beforehand. Literally. Gate, Hellish Horde (again, presuming he knows you're coming, has let you prepare, and has cast this prior), Summon Monster III and IV, and Summon Baatezu 3/day.
That's not even the least of it though; even though Summons do not allow nested Summons, they can bring other "adds" to a fight themselves; a Pit Fiend (Summon Baatezu) has Create Undead at will, inside Desecrate (Asmodeus' Spell), which may have you facing other former challengers, but tacked onto the mummy chassis or Bone/Corpse/Curst Creatures. Or further nesting with Necroplasm to create spawn, and Deathshead's can Dominate opponents they're grappling. Aspect of Dispater has Polymorph for random Lemure's, Aspects of Belial can Geas/Quest or Dominate Monster for the party, while Fierna is limited to Dominate Person. Aspects of Levistus has Amnesia Touch to mess with the party to turn them to one side. Glasya also has Polymorph for random noob Devil's, Dominate Person, AND Dominate Monster. Baalzebul and Mephistopheles has Geas/Quest, while Aspect of Kurtulkmak can CALL in a 12HD Dragon as a spell (there are plenty of handbooks on how a Dragon can be optimized, especially without LA to worry about), although is otherwise much lower OP than the other aspects. Of course, you've also got Gate which can bring in anything you want, including Chain Gating.
You've got all of this to deal with, and I'm running out of time. However, I've barely scratch his other damage potential. Good luck. I'll look forward to raising your corpse.
I know that CR27 vs ECL20 is a bit of a stretch, but it's doable, and you're a group of 20th level characters. This is simply a thought exercise, no prizes, except maybe the undying adoration of something from somewhere at a time to be later determined.