Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

[Castilonium]

Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p3Bga5DyWoLW054p55E7V0rBLZbshPpEHzTjLFFYUqI/edit?usp=sharing)

Welcome to my first guide! It covers the Zealot class made by Dreamscarred Press and released in Path of War: Expanded. The excellent guides (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?380631-All-the-Path-of-War-Guides-in-One-Place!) by Path of War designer Elricaltovilla are unfortunately out of date and were written when PoW:E was in beta and undergoing revisions, so the Zealot is quite different from how it was back then.

I don't claim to know all the possible tricks a Zealot can pull, but I feel this guide is complete enough to spark discussion on the class. There's even a section that offers advice on how to keep track of the many resources a Zealot needs to handle. Hopefully the community will be able to offer new ideas, correct my embarrassing mistakes, and help in creating an awesome guide for an awesome class!

There are two WIP sections: The maneuvers & disciplines section, and the sample builds section. I'll add to them eventually. In the meantime, take a look at this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495623-Path-of-War-Expanded-Archetype-Discipline-Guide) by Shawshank for info on disciplines and maneuvers. It focuses on advice for non-initiator archetypes, and it only goes up to 6th level maneuvers, but it’s the most recent and complete guide for PoW:Expanded disciplines. Elricaltovilla has also written guides for all of the disciplines from the original Path of War book, linked above.

[VoxRationis]

Aww, why does it say that TWF is suboptimal? Everyone knows zealots fight with two brilliant energy katars...

[upho]

Finally a new PoW guide, and AFAICT a very solid one already at this early stage at that. Your initiative is greatly appreciated, so here's an e-cookie from me to you, Castilonium!

Posting from my phone, so I'll only ask the one more general question I'd like to know more about before I get into any related specifics once I'm back in front of a proper keyboard:

Seems you've so far looked at Paizo material found on d20pfsrd and most stuff from DSP's psionic and PoW series, but not at other Paizo options or other DSP releases (such as Akashic Mysteries, Bloodforge, Steelforge, Lords of the Night etc). Was this some kind of an intentional limitation or merely because you haven't had the time to look into the material yet?

I think especially some of the options found in a few of the omitted DSP releases (and some of the soon to be published stuff currently found in play test docs) can have a potentially huge impact on many zealot build types.

[digiman619]

Minor but important note: By linking the archetypes to their d20PFSRD entry, we can't see the color coding, so including the number of stars would probably be a good thing.

[Castilonium]

@VoxRationis, never fear! I have a delicious build planned for the builds section that will involve TWF, taking advantage of Golden Lion Command for insane temporary hitpoints! And life for Aiur!

@upho, thank you for the e-cookie :smallsmile:

I do have Akashic Mysteries, and I looked through it to see if anything particularly popped out as beneficial for Zealots. There are some veils that might be worth the cost of taking the Shape Veil feat, but not many. The Willful Throw feat could be nice for Cha-SAD throwing builds, but it requires an essence pool of 5, which is out of reach for most Zealots. Powerful Throw is (yet another) nice feat from Dreamscarred Press that helps throwing builds, but throwing builds are still too flawed and require too much investment to be good compared to other fighting styles. I'm not sure that even a 3 level dip of Daevic (Desire) would be worth it. Essence Focus doesn't seem to be any better than Psionic Meditation for Zealots. Of the races, Sobeks look particularly interesting with their stat array and Sweeping Tail, but they lack the good FCB. If you see something especially good, please let me know!

I don't have other DSP releases like Bloodforge, Steelforge, or Lords of the Night. If I buy them in the future, I'll add material from them to the guide, but from what I've heard about them, I don't anticipate that they'll contain a great deal of material of specific interest to Zealots. However, I'm keeping a close eye on the Fool's Errand playtest, which looks amazingly fun and useful!

@digiman619, good idea, I'll add stars to the archetypes. But you can find their overall rating at the bottom of the archetype labeled Final Ruling.

[EldritchWeaver]

Where can I find sobeks? They aren't in Bloodforge at least.

[Castilonium]

Where can I find sobeks? They aren't in Bloodforge at least.

From Akashic Mysteries. Here's the playtest doc (https://www.dropbox.com/s/tfwab1frbgm7ocj/Akashic%20Races.pdf) for the races, and it seems to be the same as what's in the full release.

[stack]

I had worked out a build once that used essence focus and psjonic meditation to trigger deep impact and augment a sleeping goddess strike or psionic weapon every round.

[Dromuthra]

Huge fan of this guide, especially for the large number of tricks included, be it synergies between feats/styles or dips and archetypes. Thanks for writing it!

[upho]

I do have Akashic Mysteries, and I looked through it to see if anything particularly popped out as beneficial for Zealots. There are some veils that might be worth the cost of taking the Shape Veil feat, but not many.Being far from an expert on the zealot, the things which I think are worth mentioning in the guide from other Paizo and DSP sources aren't zealot specific per se, but rather specific for certain combat roles which the zealot can excel in. In particular, I believe there are a few very strong melee control/debuff options for tank/defender builds worth mentioning:

1. Gamla race from Akashic Mysteries - an aasimar, skinwalker or tiefling with gamla heritage starts as Large size and is able to wield Large weapons (unlike those with other heritages or the regular gamla). Having a great Str, size and reach (plus CMB) is of course a huge boon for all types of Str based melee builds, and typically vital for an effective melee defender, so anything boosting these factors typically has a very high value. This is especially true for size and reach, primarily since there are few options readily available to martials which provide substantial increases to these factors, while they often exponentially improve action economy and especially the return on investments in AoO control combos (and thus greatly improve tank/defender effectiveness). If being Large seems to be problematic (it may sometimes be during earlier levels), buy your friendly caster a wand of reduce person (unless you're an outsider) or similar. Or better, get the Magnitude Shift feat pronto (see #3 below).

2. Mighty Frame feat from Bloodforge - grants powerful build, as the half-giant racial trait. Great (pun intended) for tanking because of the same reasons the gamla heritage is great for tanking. This feat also increases the number of suitable races for all those tank builds which are intended to be good but not exactly highly optimized, making the half-giant a much less superior choice, while it further increases the potential of the gamla heritage races mentioned above. Requires +4 bab, and dwarf, giant, or orc subtype (any of which can be gained, along with a minor bonus, through the Mixed Blood feat also found in Bloodforge - I'd recommend the orc subtype for the stacking +1 racial bonus to attack and damage).

3. Shifting Feats (preferably five or more) from Lords of the Wild (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479603-Dreamscarred-Press-Introduces-Lords-of-the-Wild-The-Playtest!) - all of these grant benefits which increase depending on the number of shifting feats taken (especially with the 3rd and 5th feat), and while pretty much all of them are good for most melee builds, some stand out as absolutely awesome for tanks. Most notably, as per the current play test RAW, the Magnitude Shift feat can turn the mentioned aasimar/skinwalker/tiefling zealot with gamla heritage anywhere from Small to Gargantuan (gaining benefits as if Colossal with Mighty Frame), while granting up to a +6 size bonus to Str (and -4 Dex), typically during at least every round of every more challenging fight. All possible before 10th level! So no more need for using size-increasing stances, powers (augmented expansion, metamorphosis) or very expensive items (Skin of Proteus) in order to consistently trip and bull rush rune giants and high CR dragons. Other zealot tank goodies include for example Abomination Shift (crit/SA denial chance, all-around vision and bonuses to CMB/D and to saves against mind-affecting, disease, poison), Beasthide Shift (increases NA and adds NA to touch AC), Sensory Shift (blindsense, Uncanny Dodge and bonus to Perception) and Strongclaw Shift (great burrow and climb speeds, a pair of claw attacks, huge bonuses to Climb (perfect with Fool's Errand) and up to a +13(!) inherent bonus to Str). All require the shapechanger subtype which is granted by being a skinwalker (or a LotW werewolf) or knowing at least one Chimera Soul maneuver, and they can be added to any list of bonus feats (such as those provided by the fighter, monk, ranger, bloodlines and several initiators, including the zealot).

4. Formless Master PrC also from Lords of the Wild - the first four (of five) levels grant +3 bab, a minor change shape disguise ability, two bonus shifting feats, +5 ft. reach and a +4 untyped bonus to any physical stat, plus the features granted by three additional levels in a chosen previous class (à la evangelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/evangelist)). One zealot level progression delay, -4 hp, -1 bab and typically +1 Ref and -1 Will amounts to a very low price to pay for the benefits IMO, unless maybe if you're planning to take only one single shifting feat for some weird reason. Requires +4 bab and three shifting feats.

5. Dueling (PSFG) (http://archivesofnethys.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20(PSFG) ) +1 magic weapon ability from Pathfinder Society Field Guide (note that this is different from the 14k weapon ability which was given the same name for some idiotic reason) - grants twice the enhancement as a luck bonus to combat maneuvers performed using the weapon, meaning the weapon provides a total bonus to CMB equal to three times its enhancement bonus. This can really ramp up CMB for a relatively low cost, to the point where a zealot tank can be built to auto-succeed with the affected maneuvers even if lacking maneuver-specific investments (like Improved/Greater feats or Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver). While the move action maneuver recovery means zealot tanks are less likely to benefit from replacing standard action strikes with full attacks than say warders, I think a large part of a zealot build's defender effectiveness is still determined by the number and debilitating power of its AoOs, so especially more substantial CMB boosts not limited to a single maneuver (such as this) are typically very worthwhile.

6. Grendle (="half-troll") race with the Imperious Bearing ART from Bloodforge - offers fitting stats (+Con and Cha, -Int) and some perks suitable for a tank (+2 NA and saves vs. fear and despair, faster healing, limb regen and darkvision), along with a very powerful mass-demoralize ART, perfect for zealots looking to scare the pants off their enemies. A grendle with Imperious Bearing may target all enemies within 30 ft. when making any demoralize attempt, vastly increasing the usefulness and value of related stuff (like several Eternal Guardian and Black Seraph maneuvers, Cornugon Smash, Intimidating Prowess, Soulless Gaze, Black Seraph Style feats etc). Makes an already very powerful and highly reliable debuffing method crazy good, especially for the zealot, being Cha-based and having relatively easy access to both related disciplines. And this gets even better if also combined with a great size and reach along with abilities to keep frightened/panicked enemies from fleeing and to consistently make several accurate demoralizing attacks per round (for example by having many sure-fire AoO triggers, such as Stance of the Thunderbrand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/piercing-thunder-maneuvers#TOC-Stance-of-the-Thunderbrand), Golden Lion Style, Broken Wing Gambit, Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp, Phase Locking weapon, Wolf Trip etc). The grendle doesn't yet have a zealot FCB and I suspect there won't be one in the near future either, unfortunately.


It's of course perfectly possible to combine many of these options for near broken levels of melee control/debuff power, as many of them are significantly stronger than any Paizo or DSP alternatives for martial tank/defender builds and also have great synergy. And while LotW haven't yet been released, I don't suspect the finalized versions of the extremely powerful shifting feats and the related Formless Master PrC will differ much from the current play test versions. In effect, I believe these will become the new black for more optimized martial melee builds in general, and for builds having a tank/defender combat role in particular. Regardless, I think the already released options mentioned above (point 1, 2, 5, 6) are at the very least in the top five percent of those currently available to a zealot tank in a Paizo+DSP game.


Powerful Throw is (yet another) nice feat from Dreamscarred Press that helps throwing builds, but throwing builds are still too flawed and require too much investment to be good compared to other fighting styles. I'm not sure that even a 3 level dip of Daevic (Desire) would be worth it. Essence Focus doesn't seem to be any better than Psionic Meditation for Zealots.Yeah, I think Powerful Throw is primarily of interest to shield switch-hitting builds (typically with 7+ levels of Shield Champion brawler), as those can bypass many of the flaws which make throwing builds sub-par, and may increase the synergy effects between their thrown and melee related options. I think especially the more control/debuff and/or support inclined variants of these otherwise highly specific builds can of course benefit from zealot levels, but IME they cannot afford to make those levels a priority before high levels and I believe they also often gain more from warder levels. So far, besides the gamla heritage thing I mentioned, I can't think of any options from AM which are of any particular interest to zealots, although I suspect there might be a few yet to be discovered combos with potential for corner case builds, of course.


Of the races, Sobeks look particularly interesting with their stat array and Sweeping Tail, but they lack the good FCB.I don't think I'd rate the sobek above green (and maybe not even consider it worth mentioning). And I think the nameer alternate sobek is less interesting since for most of the typical zealot combat roles, Dex based builds have a rather significant disadvantage in comparison to Str based ones (melee control/debuff doesn't jam well with being Dex based, which also eats up quite a bit of resources merely for basic combat functionality).


I don't have other DSP releases like Bloodforge, Steelforge, or Lords of the Night. If I buy them in the future, I'll add material from them to the guide, but from what I've heard about them, I don't anticipate that they'll contain a great deal of material of specific interest to Zealots.There are a few potentially interesting options, but aside from those I've already mentioned, I also don't think any of them are really worth mentioning in the guide.


However, I'm keeping a close eye on the Fool's Errand playtest, which looks amazingly fun and useful!I've tested much of the Fool's Errand stuff pretty thoroughly now, and it definitely is amazingly fun and useful IMO! Thankfully I think they'll release it very soon.

Sorry for the wall o' text, I'll stop here and put my questions/comments on some of your evaluations in a later post.

[Castilonium]

@stack, Innnnnnnteresting observation. I'll take another look through PoW:E and see if there are any other neat combos that expend psionic focus with the same action. Thanks for the tip! :smallsmile:

@Dromuthra, Awww, thank you for the compliments :smallbiggrin: You're welcome, and thanks for reading it!

@upho, Holy macaroni :eek:

I had no idea that there were so many size-stacking options with other DSP material! And until this moment, for some reason I thought that aasimar, tieflings, and skinwalkers could only be medium or small. But you're right, they can be large too now because Gamlas are large humanoids! I'll definitely put that in my guide, as well as that other Dueling property, so thank you for telling me about those. But I don't think I'll be putting the Bloodforge or Lords of the Wild things you mentioned in it, for a few reasons. I want to be able to look at all the material myself; those things are for the size-stacking defender combat role rather than Zealots in particular; I think only a smaller percentage of PoW players will have those products, like myself; in combination, they seem kind of ludicrously bonkers and could make the game un-fun. Kind of like the little notes I put in my guide for Greater Dirty Trick and Signature Skill (Intimidate). I want to get people interested in Zealots, but I don't want them to take all the over-the-top stuff and then terrify their GM into banning Dreamscarred Press or Path of War material.

Thanks for the huge wall of text :smallwink: It melted my brain and made me realize there's more to this DSP rabbit hole than I thought. The Formless Master PrC and the shifting feats are especially interesting, and I think I'll investigate them further!

[Powerdork]

I don't have other DSP releases like Bloodforge, Steelforge, or Lords of the Night. If I buy them in the future, I'll add material from them to the guide, but from what I've heard about them, I don't anticipate that they'll contain a great deal of material of specific interest to Zealots.

Mixed Blood [Heritage]
You come from a family with diverse heritage.
Benefits: Choose one: aberration, air, chaotic, cold, dragon, dwarf, earth, elf, evil, fey, fire, giant, gnome, goblinoid, good, halfling, lawful, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, orc, ooze, outsider, plant, reptilian, undead, or water. Gain the benefits associated with your chosen type or subtype from table 4-1 on the next page. You may choose a subtype that is not appropriate for your creature type (such as a monstrous humanoid gaining the dwarf subtype through this feat). Do not recalculate your base attack bonus, saving throws, skill points, or Hit Dice.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time, you choose a different type and/or subtype from the above list. You may not select a type or subtype you already possess or gain both the cold and fire subtypes through this feat. Unlike other creatures with the air subtype, a creature who gains the air subtype with this feat does not gain or improve a fly speed.
https://i.gyazo.com/ff8093197cc37ddd8de322edf1105c5f.png
(TL;DR you gain a chosen subtype or a subtype that lets you emulate a chosen type)

Vestigial Wings [Heritage]
You were either born with or developed a pair of weak wings.
Prerequisites: Dragon, fey, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or outsider type and/or air subtype.
Benefits: You have developed small wings; when you fall you can slow your descent by making a DC 15 Fly check to fall safely without taking falling damage, albeit at a rate of 20 feet a round. When falling safely, you can make another DC 15 Fly check to glide, moving 5 feet laterally every round. Additionally, you may take ranks in the Fly skill. Fly becomes a class skill for you.

Aerial Wings [Heritage]
Your wings have strengthened to the point of allowing flight.
Prerequisites: Vestigial Wings, 7th level or higher.
Benefits: Your wings strengthen; you gain a fly speed equal to double your base land speed with good maneuverability.

Improved Spark of Divinity [Heritage]
You hone your divine connection further, gaining additional capabilities.
Prerequisites: Spark of Divinity, 7th level or higher.
Benefits: Choose hold person, magic circle against alignment or resist energy. You may use the chosen spell as a spell-like ability once per day, at a caster level equal to your character level. At 10th level, and every 5 levels thereafter, you gain an additional use per day of the chosen spell.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. Each time, you choose a different spell from the above list.

Greater Sanguine Sorcery [Heritage]
You have honed the magic of your heritage to its peak.
Prerequisites: Improved Sanguine Sorcery, 13th level or higher.
Benefits: Choose confusion, dimension door, or shadow conjuration. You may use the chosen spell as a spell-like ability once per day, at a caster level equal to your character level. At 15th level, and every 5 levels thereafter, you gain an additional use per day of the chosen spell.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. Each time, you choose a different spell from the above list.

Mighty Frame [Heritage]
You are extraordinarily strong for your size.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +4, and dwarf, giant, or orc subtype and/or dragon, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid type.
Benefits: You gain the powerful build special quality, which lets you function in many ways as if you were one size category larger.
Whenever you are subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for a Combat Maneuver Bonus or Combat Maneuver Defense (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), you are treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to you.
You are also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as grab or swallow whole) can affect you.
You may use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, your space and reach remain those of a creature your actual size. The benefits of this ability stack with the effects of abilities, powers, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

Fang and Fury [Combat]
You combine savagery and martial training.
Prerequisites: base attack bonus +6, able to initiate 3rd level or higher maneuvers, bite natural attack
Benefit: Once per round you may make a bite attack as an additional part of initiating a strike. This bite attack must be made against one of the targets of your strike. It does not gain any of the benefits of the strike (though it might benefit from other effects, such as boosts or stances).

Grave’s Embrace [Heritage]
You enhance your deathly nature, granting you some measure of control.
Prerequisites: Mixed Blood (undead) and/or graveblood subtype
Benefit: You may choose to count as undead only if it would be advantageous to you when resolving the effects of spells and abilities (you still do not gain undead immunities unless you are actually undead). Once per day you may drain your own life force to gain power; as a swift action you suffer a -4 penalty to your Constitution and gain a +4 untyped bonus to another ability score of your choice. Both bonus and penalty last for up to 1 minute.
Normal: Graveblood creatures count as undead for the purpose of resolving spells and abilities (they still do not gain undead immunities unless they are actually undead).

Mixed Blood (undead) [Heritage]
You come from a family with diverse heritage.
Benefit: You gain the graveblood subtype, and you gain negative energy resistance 5. ["Graveblood creatures are related to undead and have bony, pale, or gaunt bodies. They count as undead in addition to their other types and subtypes for effects and prerequisites relating to type. They do not gain any other qualities of the type unless another source grants it, and are still healed by positive energy and harmed by negative energy."]
(Altered from a full reprint of the Mixed Blood feat from Bloodforge, above.)

Material of specific interest to zealots? No, probably not. Do zealots still appreciate these books? Yeah probably.

[upho]

Holy macaroni :eek:Heh, that's a pretty accurate summary! Another would be that BSFs ("Big Smart Fighters" in the case of warders) now have the tools to climb to the top of the BFC hill, where they can share a pipe of "Blended OPTM" or "Best BrokenTM" with the indigenous population (mostly eccentric bearded old dudes in pointy hats and bathrobes) and join in their favorite recreational activity (giving patronizing unsolicited advice and assistance to the less fortunate adventurers struggling on the slopes of mediocrity below). :smallbiggrin:

IOW, I believe highly optimized melee control martials can now trivialize combat to an extent comparable to that of control focused casters, being able to easily and consistently take several opponents of a CR way above level out of a fight each round, while simultaneously protecting allies.


I had no idea that there were so many size-stacking options with other DSP material!Well, AFAIK the maximum actual size a PC can have in a DSP game is basically the same as in one limited to only Paizo options. Beast shape and similar Paizo spells are limited to Huge, just as DSP's expansion, metamorphosis and the not yet released Magnitude Shift are in a very large majority of cases. And actually, certain Paizo options which allow for Gargantuan size have existed for years (such as an enlarged synth with the Huge evo) and have only very recently (and I guess unintentionally) been matched by DSP options through the much less intuitive gamla heritage thing.

I think the most important difference between the Paizo and DSP options is what seems to be the intended users. The Paizo options allowing you to grow larger than Large were clearly intended for casters only, as martials generally have both less to gain from them and no way to use them in practice. In contrast, the DSP counterparts were seemingly intended for a much larger and more diverse group of users, as in comparison to the Paizo options, these provide greater benefits for martials while also being more easily accessible by builds largely based on martial classes. Compare DSP's (expensive) Skin of Proteus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/universal-items#TOC-Psychoactive-Skins) to say Paizo's even more expensive Greater Mask of Giants (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/mask-of-giants) for a telling example of this difference.

And then there's of course also the unique related powerful build which is also accessible to anyone. But it should be noted that before AM this only meant DSP size boosts could "almost" match the existing Paizo boosts.


And until this moment, for some reason I thought that aasimar, tieflings, and skinwalkers could only be medium or small. But you're right, they can be large too now because Gamlas are large humanoids! I'll definitely put that in my guide, as well as that other Dueling property, so thank you for telling me about those.You're welcome! I suspect Ssalarn (the author of AM) and the play testers more involved than me never saw the gamla heritage thing coming, and so far I haven't seen anyone else mentioning the combo or including it in a build here or on the Paizo boards, so at least for now it appears to be a very novel possibility very few people are aware of. (I guess I discovered it only because of my obsession with truly effective martial builds able to defy expectations and basically ignore their single-target DPR, having me vacuum play tests and new releases especially for new possibilities to increase size and reach.)


But I don't think I'll be putting the Bloodforge or Lords of the Wild things you mentioned in it, for a few reasons. I want to be able to look at all the material myself; those things are for the size-stacking defender combat role rather than Zealots in particular; I think only a smaller percentage of PoW players will have those products, like myself; in combination, they seem kind of ludicrously bonkers and could make the game un-fun. Kind of like the little notes I put in my guide for Greater Dirty Trick and Signature Skill (Intimidate). I want to get people interested in Zealots, but I don't want them to take all the over-the-top stuff and then terrify their GM into banning Dreamscarred Press or Path of War material.All good reasons IMO, though I do think you should add these options once you have the books (and LotW has been released), but also note that they should be handled with care. (And none of these options are actually that bad in comparison to many PC options by Paizo IMO.)


Thanks for the huge wall of text :smallwink: It melted my brain and made me realize there's more to this DSP rabbit hole than I thought. The Formless Master PrC and the shifting feats are especially interesting, and I think I'll investigate them further!Yeah, I think DSP options can indeed ramp up the power of especially martial builds. But IME it's usually people used to Paizo only games (where martials generally have the weakest options), not to mention those used to the PFS house rules, who will instinctively see many of these options as OP or broken, even though they typically cannot be called more than "strong" when compared to the total of Paizo options and not only taking martial options into account. The reactions on especially the Paizo forum to silly high single-target melee DPR numbers from high level martial builds are often a good example of this, despite the fact that this kind of DPR is irrelevant after a certain point and that these builds tend to have a rapidly decreasing relative combat effectiveness the further up the levels you go in a real game.

And do check out LotW! I think it includes quite a lot of refreshingly different and interesting stuff besides the few potentially OP options.

[MilleniaAntares]

I am not sure if someone mentioned this, but boosts do not lock out counters, like much of your guide's language implies.

Counters lock out boosts. If you use an immediate action, the next round's swift becomes unavailable.

[VoxRationis]

God, Pathfinder classes are so complex. There's a million different classes, each with a million different features and alternate versions of those features. What does the Zealot even use its power points for? It looks like a maneuver-based class.

[digiman619]

God, Pathfinder classes are so complex. There's a million different classes, each with a million different features and alternate versions of those features. What does the Zealot even use its power points for? It looks like a maneuver-based class.

Augmentation. The class' signature discipline, Sleeping Goddess, has maneuvers that can be augmented like psionic powers.

[stack]

Also class features. It can negate incoming damage to creatures in the collective with them.

[Powerdork]

And further than just Sleeping Goddess, a zealot gains a Mission that gives them augments that can be applied to maneuvers from any discipline. Further, power points make the class a psionic class. This is a subtle yet important classification. (Yes, if the class didn't need a power point progression, it could just give Wild Talent/Psionic Talent, but that's not the point.)

[Castilonium]

Guide update notes:
Eternal Guardian and Sleeping Goddess are complete!
Fixed mistake in Equipment and weapons section and updated recommendations. Flails are not a discipline weapon for Eternal Guardian. The estoc is the best finesse weapon.
Added a note about size-stacking in the Ability Scores and Fighting Style section.
Added a note about Gamlas in the race section under Aasimar, Tiefling, and Skinwalker.
Added Skin of Proteus and Dueling (PSFG) to Equipment section.
Made the headings in the outline look nicer.
Tidied up some language regarding swift and immediate actions.

It turns out that working through those disciplines takes several hours each, and I still have 18 left to go! I'll get to em eventually, don't worry!

@Metool, thanks for the rules text from those books! It's making it very tempting for me to buy them. Fang and Fury could be a nice addition for the gamla-heritage ragebred skinwalker full attacker Zealot build with Golden Lion Command I've been working on. And Mixed Blood (orc) is clearly better than and stacks with Weapon Focus!

@MilleniaAntares, thanks for pointing that out. I've fixed up the language where I saw there could be potential problems.

@upho, you're awesome :smallcool: Yup, I'm well aware of how full casters in pure Paizo games can break the game. I suppose it's nice that martials can do similar feats of ludicrous battlefield control with DSP material, but I'd personally rather not see the game broken in the first place. That's a personal preference which should have no bearing on how I write my guide, of course, since some players and GMs enjoy stretching the system to its limits. It's a different but valid playstyle just like Combat as Sport vs Combat as War (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?317715-Very-Long-Combat-as-Sport-vs-Combat-as-War-a-Key-Difference-in-D-amp-D-Play-Styles). So I'll do my best to showcase the best that a Zealot can do with necessary little warnings here and there for people who care, and I just might add more stuff from other DSP products as I get more familiar with them.

Thanks for your huge amount of insight, and I hope to see your questions/comments on my evaluations later :smallsmile:

[Lord_Gareth]

It should be noted that Bloodforge will very shortly be the subject of some rather comprehensive errata. I would suggest holding off on its purchase (or getting too deep into working it into your guide) until then.

[Mithril Leaf]

I love this guide, thanks for making it! One thing to consider if you're dipping Soulknife is that War Soul lets you take nearly any weapon as your Mind Blade, such as a gun with Solar Wind.


It should be noted that Bloodforge will very shortly be the subject of some rather comprehensive errata. I would suggest holding off on its purchase (or getting too deep into working it into your guide) until then.

Now is this is very shortly in real time or Upcoming Bloodforge Errata time? Because the second one tends to make me think another few months my friend.

[Lord_Gareth]

Now is this is very shortly in real time or Upcoming Bloodforge Errata time? Because the second one tends to make me think another few months my friend.

Look, a distraction! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvUU8joBb1Q)

[upho]

Finally:

Considering my relative inexperience with zealots, it's probably wise to take the following with a grain of salt.

Ability Scores, and Picking your Fighting Style Zealots are poor at full attacking compared to other classes because they lack class features that give static bonus damage on each hit... ...Full attacking also denies you the ability to use a move action for Aid Another, and encourages you to forego using a counter to protect your party so that you can use your swift action on an offensive boost.
I wouldn't say the lack of damage bonus features is the primary reason zealots are less suited for making full attacks - compare to the warder which may gain tremendously from focusing on full attacks, despite also lacking such features as well as a need for them in most cases. Instead, I think the primary reason is the stiff competition from their awesome move action maneuver recovery. Full attacks aren't necessarily only of interest to damage builds, and may sometimes actually be of greater value for melee control builds.

This of course means zealots typically gain less from investing in such on-hit effects which increase in value with each additional attack that can be made - and/or each additional enemy that can be hit - in a round (such as most damage feats, 1-round boosts, combat maneuvers, demoralization etc). But it doesn't necessarily mean such options aren't worthwhile, and I believe much of their lost value can be regained with supporting options increasing the number and accuracy of the attacks possible during a standard action (through combos allowing a single hit to trigger multiple AoOs, standard action multi-attack strikes etc).

And besides, what about the destruction mission (rated blue) or Golden Lion Command (potentially purple)?


Sword & Board This style is for maximum tankiness and party support... /snip/ ....the main purpose of your Strikes as a Zealot is to inflict secondary effects, AKA riders.
Depending on your definition of "tankiness", I believe the first statement is highly debatable. Classic sword & board (= one-handed (non-reach) weapon and a shield) will certainly give you maximum tankiness if your definition of a tank is basically a meat-shield à la your typical vanilla pally, ie someone with high durability mainly through passive defenses and personal damage mitigation (lots of hp, high AC and saves, self-healing etc).

But judging from your second statement, as well as your final rating of "best weapon style" and advice on the Pikeman's Training and Seize the Opportunity feats, I feel your definition of a tank (just as my own) is closer to that of the 4e defender. Which is someone able to put the mostly passive meat-shield qualities to great use with various active control and debuff tools, vastly improving not just personal durability, but also that of the entire party. (I'm of course referring to stuff that can direct enemy aggression (like armiger's mark, martyrdom and certain counters), nerf enemy actions in general (like zeal and many counters, combat maneuvers and strike debuff riders) and/or serious action denial (like powerful strike riders and optimized dirty tricking, grappling and demoralization)). And according to this definition, classic sword & board definitely won't give a zealot maximum tankiness IMO.

And like you write later in the guide, simply by taking Pikeman’s Training or for example a 1-level dip into fiendbound marauder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/fiendbound-marauder-warder-archetype) warder, a zealot can maximize tankiness according to both definitions, effectively combining the passive advantages of the sword & board style with the active advantages of the Two Handed AoO style.

TL/DR: I'd say the "pole & board" style gives a zealot maximum tankiness and probably deserves a purple rating ('cause mixing two blue things makes for a purple result, right?). I recommend you specifically mention this style and maybe also define "tanking" a bit more clearly in this section.


Finesse Melee Might be a good idea to mention that replacing Weapon Finesse with Polearm Dancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats) (or perhaps mentioned fiendbound marauder warder dip with Weapon Finesse) allows for Dex builds to get in on the pole & board style. Nice for zealots wishing to emphasize their passive tanking qualities and skills rather than their active defender abilities.

Personally, I'd also be a bit hesitant to rate Dex melee styles quite as high as the Str based equivalents. Mostly because of the additional investments required for Dex baseline functionality, and because size increases are so valuable (especially for tanks) and have such great synergy with Str builds, while they're pretty disastrous for Dex builds. IME, Dex builds are primarily good for TWF damage builds and perhaps switch-hitting (Deadly Agility works with thrown), but even those tend to get blown out of the water by larger Str based equivalents in higher levels. But I haven't seen a zealot in play nearly enough to really judge whether the higher AC and perhaps focusing on certain class features independent of melee reach can compensate for these shortcomings (and the less easily accessible, less numerous and less substantial attack stat boosts).


Unarmed You can dip 3 levels of Steelfist Commando Warlord to make this fighting style work, though.
Not that any of this makes IUS that much more attractive IMO, but why not dip one or a couple of levels of brawler, a more armor-friendly monk archetype (most notably MoMS), or basically up to four levels of any primarily martial class with an archetype granting IUS along with other useful stuff? Here's two examples granting rage and plenty of other nifty things:

Primal disciple (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/dreamscarred-press---barbarian-archetypes/primal-disciple-barbarian-archetype) barb 2 - grants 1st level maneuvers, a free good PoW/E feat, one rage power (brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/brawler) for IUS) plus access to the Extra Rage Power feat along with rage (rounds can be increased by feats and/or cheap magic items).
Bloody-knuckled rowdy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/bloody-knuckled-rowdy-bloodrager-archetype) bloodrager 1/2/3/4 - grants free IUS, rage and a bloodline power or a bloodline familiar at 1st; a free style feat at 2nd; US damage as a monk -2 at 3rd; and finally a second bloodline power or two rage powers (with the primalist archetype), free Eschew Materials and minor Cha-based spellcasting at 4th.
(Also, a monk's robe (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/robe-monk-s) for 13k gives 1d8 US Medium base damage.)


Path of War and Expanded Feats I think you should add the mentioned Polearm Dancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats) feat.


Signature Skill (Intimidate) This feat lets you frighten or panic enemies instead of merely make them shaken. /snip/ (Like with Dirty Trick Master, I don’t actually recommend doing this in a game. Hardcore lockdown every combat makes the game boring.)
Signature Skill for Intimidate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/intimidate) consists of increasingly demanding and debilitating variants of (my emphasis):

If you exceed the DC to demoralize a target by at least 10, it is frightened for 1 round and shaken thereafter.* A Will save (DC = 10 + your number of ranks in Intimidate) negates the frightened condition, but the target is still shaken, even if it has the stalwart ability.

So while what you're saying in the first paragraph is true, it fails to mention the granted low DC (max 10 + level) save against the worse condition. This means you not only need to significantly exceed the DC of the Intimidate check, but the target must also fail the save for the feat to have any effect, meaning the actual probabilities of this being valuable when fighting enemies that really matter are usually slim. Notably since tons and tons of monsters (and their mothers) have - and many cheap items, low level spells and class features grant - substantial bonuses to saves against fear or mind-affecting (whereas bonuses to demoralization DC are virtually non-existent).

Even a higher level Str based zealot with max ranks, Intimidating Prowess and Black Seraph Annihilation will often have trouble getting a worse effect to stick on anything of a CR above level, especially if the target is also immune to mind-affecting (such as undead). So IMO this isn't nearly powerful enough to deserve a purple rating (orange, or maybe green in a game with a lot of mooks?), much less the warning on potentially making the game boring by being OP (and I wouldn't call demoralization lock-down, I think it's closer to the opposite).

Now there actually is a truly powerful option for a zealot looking to reliably increase demoralization fear effects: Soulless Gaze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/soulless-gaze-damnation) plus another damnation feat - Fiendskin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/fiendskin-damnation)is likely the best choice for zealots. The greater power of this option is also reflected in the more demanding prereqs, larger costs and significant trade-offs, though it still very much deserves a mention and a purple rating IMO.

Besides a note about how this allows for (costly) combos that may be OP in many games, I also think it would be a good idea to say something about the flavor and consequences of damnation feats making them less compatible with many PCs and campaigns. And that a player interested in grabbing them in the future should therefore discuss - and potentially alter - them with their DM first.

Finally, I think many players often believe fear conditions beyond shaken to be more powerful than they actually are in practice. Since creatures frightened into anything except shaken or cowering will try to flee, in a real game scared enemies typically run away with any treasure they have, often alerting more powerful allies, and potentially regrouping to launch surprise attacks on the party later on. So without solid supporting combos and tactics preventing scared enemies from fleeing (AoO optimization, Wolf Trip, phase locking weapon, dirty tricks etc), the ability to stack demoralization may actually cause at least as much trouble as it prevents in many situations.


Dipping and Multiclassing: Master of Many Styles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) Monk 1-2 is a potentially awesome dip, enabling style feat based combos otherwise impossible while also offering several bonus feats and a healthy boost to saves. Note that this bypasses the stance prerequisite of any initial discipline style feat, opening the up the entire chain regardless of disciplines known. Besides getting easy access to the many Paizo style feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/style-feats), you can for example combine Cursed Razor Massacre with Eternal Guardian Style, Seize the Opportunity and combat maneuver feats (privateer dip?). Or Golden Lion Command with Piercing Thunder Style. Or enjoy Riven Hourglass Eternity, Steel Serpent Style or Veiled Moon Shunt without requiring a martial tradition or a trait. The possibilities are enormous and ever growing.



And I must say I like this guide even more now that I've had the chance to read it more thoroughly. I'm finding out about nifty stuff I hadn't thought of while interesting ideas and character concepts keep popping up in my head. Really great work so far!

Though honestly, I don't think it's humanly possible not to like a guide which naturally and effortlessly includes words like "poofaport". (Seriously, that still makes me giggle, and it's simply beyond any competition from my previous favorite "telepop".) :smalltongue:


@upho, you're awesome :smallcool: Oh wow! Thanks! You're making me blush... :smallredface:


Yup, I'm well aware of how full casters in pure Paizo games can break the game. I suppose it's nice that martials can do similar feats of ludicrous battlefield control with DSP material, but I'd personally rather not see the game broken in the first place.For what it's worth, I completely agree. While I believe it can be a fun and enlightening TO exercise to put together such silly melee builds, I really would've much preferred they weren't possible to begin with, and that especially higher level spells and full casters were brought down a notch or two instead. Although I think DSP deserves cred for not making it even remotely close to as likely to accidentally end up with an OP melee build as it is to end up with an OP full caster build. And I think it's good to keep in mind these melee "super-controllers" can compete with BFC casters only in the area of pure combat effectiveness, not in any of all the other areas in which such casters can render the abilities of other party members utterly redundant and easily trivialize challenges.


That's a personal preference which should have no bearing on how I write my guide, of course, since some players and GMs enjoy stretching the system to its limits. It's a different but valid playstyle just like Combat as Sport vs Combat as War (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?317715-Very-Long-Combat-as-Sport-vs-Combat-as-War-a-Key-Difference-in-D-amp-D-Play-Styles). So I'll do my best to showcase the best that a Zealot can do with necessary little warnings here and there for people who care, and I just might add more stuff from other DSP products as I get more familiar with them.So true. And I think you're dealing with this in the right way in your guide.


Thanks for your huge amount of insight, and I hope to see your questions/comments on my evaluations later :smallsmile:You're welcome! But now I'm worried my above ramblings on the guide stuff won't live up to the same standard... :smallfrown:

[Castilonium]

Guide update notes:
Piercing Thunder is complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Added a preface explaining why things are rated the way they are. I felt like this would be needed, since... I put quiiiite a lot of red and orange ratings in Piercing Thunder.
(Ability Scores & Fighting Style) Added the Reach & Shield style, and changed "maximum tankiness" in the Sword & Board entry to "maximum durability."
(Ability Scores & Fighting Style) Expanded on the options for the Unarmed fighting style.
(Ability Scores & Fighting Style) Expanded on the TL;DR summary.
(Feats) Added Polearm Dancer.
(Feats) Replaced Signature Skill (Intimidate) with Soulless Gaze.
(Dipping) Added a note about Discipline Blade Skills in the Soulknife dip.
(Dipping) Added Bushi Warlord.
(Dipping) Added Fiendbound Marauder Warder.
(Dipping) Added Primal Disciple Barbarian.
(Dipping) Added Master of Many Styles Monk.
(Equipment) Updated recommendations for Finesse Melee.
(Equipment) Abbreviated Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone as COWPIS. Tee hee hee =P

Now I have completed the 3 disciplines new to PoW:E that Zealots have native access to. Next, I'll do the other two, Golden Lion and Solar Wind! After that, I'll do the rest of the PoW:E disciplines, and finally I'll do the original PoW disciplines. Hopefully they won't be as depressing to evaluate for Zealots as Piercing Thunder was!

@Mithral Leaf, Thanks for the compliments, I'm glad you like the guide! :smallbiggrin: And thank you for the tip about Soulknife (War Soul) being able to form firearms and whatever other weapons they fancy with Discipline Blade Skills!

@upho, You have provided SO much useful and mindblowing material for my guide! Most especially, the MoMS monk, the Fiendbound Marauder Warder, Soulless Gaze, and the Reach & Shield fighting style! Thank you for all of your advice and input, and worry not, your helpful ramblings live up to the best standards! :thog:

You're correct that my idea of a good tank is like a 4e defender, as much a controller that prevents enemies from attacking their teammates as they are a meatshield to mitigate damage. I know that a lot of people say "dead enemies do no damage" to advocate maximizing DPR and full-attacking everything until there are no enemies left to attack your team, but I figure that there are other classes better suited to doing that, just like Zealots are the best suited to their awesome unique move-action-maneuver-refreshment playstyle. Once I make a sample build that uses standard full attack maneuvers and Golden Lion Command, I'm sure we'll get to see just how bonkers full attacks can be in the hands of a Zealot.

In my experience (and I know anecdotal evidence isn't the best for drawing conclusions), inflicting the Frightened and Panicked conditions work out quite well for the people inflicting them. If the enemy is in even a slightly disadvantageous position, like having been hit with a slow, entangle, nauseate, prone, or simply being in the threatened area of someone with reach, they're gonna have a bad time attempting to run away. I GMed all of Way of the Wicked and gave all of the players Signature Skill for free at level 5. The antipaladin (who I allowed to use Eternal Guardian and Black Seraph at the same progression as a warder) took Intimidate, and proceeded to fear-lock almost everything she hit. Luckily, my players are wonderful and cooperative, and worked with me to modify things and make it less of a cake walk. In dungeon environments with multiple encounters in close proximity, it's more likely that the next group of enemies is going to hear the sound of battle with perception rather than be alerted by a fleeing, frightened mook. Because the mook will get murdered by AoOs and status effects before it can get too far.

By the way, they happily took Damnation feats for roleplay regardless of the consequences, and got to have fun making up their own! :smallwink:

[Elricaltovilla]

Finally somebody else is working on this ****. :smallwink:

Maybe now you can tell people why its taking me so long to update SEVEN of these things. It's a lot of work!

I've been keeping an eye on this and I'm impressed with the quality. Props to you.

[upho]

Piercing Thunder is complete!Yay!


(Dipping) Added Fiendbound Marauder Warder.I think you should mention that this combines well with the Ordained Defender (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/ordained-defender-warder-archetype) archetype as well. Most importantly, this gives Combat Reflexes based on Wis instead of Int, potentially allowing primarily Str/size/reach based zealots to gain enough AoOs without Impulsive Reactions. In addition, grab allows you to add effects augmenting the initial attack to the grab attempt (if applicable), such as weapon enhancement bonuses and Weapon Focus.

Also, since you're mentioning Steel Coils, you should probably also add the Anaconda’s Coils Belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-anaconda-s-coils). You could perhaps also mention that grab and constrict with Cornugon Smash and Soulless Gaze is an awesome combo: since Power Attack affects both the initial attack and the free grab it triggers, constrict can allow a single attack (such as an AoO or a strike) to generate two free demoralize attempts. In addition, grappling prevents most frightened or panicked enemies from getting away, making panicked enemies cower.



(Dipping) Added Master of Many Styles Monk.The vast majority of the mid and upper level Paizo style feats say you get their benefits “while using X style”. The PoW:E style feats do not. A MoMS Monk gets a free style feat at levels 1 and 2, and ignores all of their prerequisites. You don’t even need the base level style feat to get one the others in the chain! Now you can easily grab both Cursed Razor Massacre and Eternal Guardian Style at the same time, or simply mix and match the best upper level style feats to your heart’s content, like Riven Hourglass Eternity or Veiled Moon Shunt.
Oh, none of this is quite true, and I'm sorry if my previous ramblings on the MoMS dip lead you to these conclusions.

1. Every style feat chain starts with a (Combat, Style) feat and is followed by two or more (Combat) feats. This is true for all Paizo's (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/style-feats) as well as DSP's (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats/black-seraph-style) style feat chains (with the exception of the Wolf Style chain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/wolf-trip-wolf-style) since it wasn't affected by the UC update like the other early Paizo chains, and therefore still consists entirely of (Combat, Style) feats).

2. MoMS (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) 2 gives you two bonus style feats (my emphasis): "...a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat..." /snip/ "He does not need to meet the prerequisites of that feat..." So a MoMS 2 dip gives you the initial (Combat, Style) feat of two different style feat chains without having to meet prerequisites, but not any of the following (Combat) feats higher up the chains (again with the exception of feats in the Wolf Style chain).

3. Unlike Paizo's second and later (Combat) feats in the chains, the DSP equivalents doesn't include all the prerequisites of the initial (Combat, Style) feat. Specifically, they all lose the "one [Discipline Name] stance known" prereq, meaning a MoMS dip allows you to first take the initial (Combat, Style) feat without meeting any prereqs, and then take the subsequent (Combat) feats in the same chain without having access to the related discipline. Again, you still need to meet all the prerequisites of these subsequent feats, MoMS 2 dip or not (and yeah, not for Wolf Style).

4. The absence of any “while using X style” or similar in the DSP style feat chains is irrelevant and has no mechanical impact whatsoever, as the style feat general RAW (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/style-feats) say "You can use a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite only while in the stance of the associated style."

Note also that you don't need to dip more than 1 level of MoMS to gain the most unique and powerful mechanical benefits: bonus initial (Combat, Style) feat with prereq bypass, dual style feat stance, +2 to all saves and plenty of other stuff. A second level "only" gives you a second bonus initial (Combat, Style) feat with prereq bypass, evasion and +1 to bab and saves. While this is nice - and potentially great or even vital for a few corner case builds (like Wolf Style AoO reach/switch hitting trippers) - I think most zealots will probably have better options as they won't really need the second level in order to bypass the prereqs of both initial (Combat, Style) feats in the two discipline style chains they want to use simultaneously.

Btw, I forgot to mention in my previous post you should probably add the related Combat Style Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-style-master-combat) feat to the Paizo feats list (and/or the MoMS dip description). The first round of combat is nearly always the far most important, so being able to get into a style feat stance (or two in the case of a MoMS 1+) as a free action can be great. And depending on your style feat chains, the free action style stance switching can allow you to forego, or build upon, a MoMS dip and still receive most or all benefits of two or more style chains in the same round.



(Equipment) Abbreviated Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone as COWPIS. Tee hee hee =P:smallbiggrin: Great for infiltrating minotaur lairs, I suppose!



In my experience (and I know anecdotal evidence isn't the best for drawing conclusions), inflicting the Frightened and Panicked conditions work out quite well for the people inflicting them. If the enemy is in even a slightly disadvantageous position, like having been hit with a slow, entangle, nauseate, prone, or simply being in the threatened area of someone with reach, they're gonna have a bad time attempting to run away. I GMed all of Way of the Wicked and gave all of the players Signature Skill for free at level 5. The antipaladin (who I allowed to use Eternal Guardian and Black Seraph at the same progression as a warder) took Intimidate, and proceeded to fear-lock almost everything she hit. Luckily, my players are wonderful and cooperative, and worked with me to modify things and make it less of a cake walk. In dungeon environments with multiple encounters in close proximity, it's more likely that the next group of enemies is going to hear the sound of battle with perception rather than be alerted by a fleeing, frightened mook. Because the mook will get murdered by AoOs and status effects before it can get too far.Yeah, with players using the proper tactics and having some supporting abilities to prevent enemies from fleeing, demoralization can indeed be insanely powerful also IME. My previous comment was mostly because I've seen quite a few posts where people are disappointed with increasing fear conditions beyond shaken, simply because of fleeing enemies creating problems.



By the way, they happily took Damnation feats for roleplay regardless of the consequences, and got to have fun making up their own! :smallwink:Sounds great, and very suitable for Way of the Wicked.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Golden Lion complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Solar Wind complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Tempest Gale complete!
(PoW & E feats) Fuse Styles fell in rating because of Combat Style Master.
(Style Feats) Added Combat Style Master at the top.
(Style Feats) Added the Wolf Style chain.
(Paizo Feats) Added Divine Protection.
(Traits) Added Deadeye Bowman.
(Traits) Added Blade of Mercy.
(Traits) Added Defensive Strategist.
(Dipping) Mentioned that Ordained Defender can be used with Fiendbound Marauder Warder.
(Dipping) Added Savage Technologist and Superstition as options for Primal Disciple Barbarian.
(Dipping) Noted that tentacles are awesome for Aberrant Aegis.
(Dipping) Corrected some flagrantly atrocious errors and recommendations in Master of Many Styles Monk.
(Equipment) Added Anaconda's Coils Belt.
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Added Final Rulings to the end of each discipline.


Finally somebody else is working on this ****.

Maybe now you can tell people why its taking me so long to update SEVEN of these things. It's a lot of work!

I've been keeping an eye on this and I'm impressed with the quality. Props to you.
GASP! It's the man himself! Thanks for being a fan of my work, I'm a big fan of yours too :smallsmile:


Earth-shatteringly incredible advice and tips and smartness from upho!
WOW! I had no idea I had the MoMS monk so incredibly wrong. But luckily, it's still a purple dip! Thanks for not only fixing my embarrassing mistakes, but also giving me loads more info and suggestions!

Maybe I'll have another gander at the Paizo style feats and see if any of them are worth nabbing with a MoMS dip and putting in the guide.

[Mithril Leaf]

Do you have any interest in including Spheres of Power material in your guide? Because I'm currently working on an Armorist and it only takes under 3 levels to get tons of benefit. Arguably 5 is optimal, but 3 and a level of Fiendbound Marauder gets you some pretty radical Arms and Armor.

[Castilonium]

Do you have any interest in including Spheres of Power material in your guide? Because I'm currently working on an Armorist and it only takes under 3 levels to get tons of benefit. Arguably 5 is optimal, but 3 and a level of Fiendbound Marauder gets you some pretty radical Arms and Armor.

I'm nowhere near experienced enough with Spheres of Power to give advice about it. I've read the wiki (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/) and played in one level 1 session with it, that's all. But looking at the Armorist, (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/armorist) it doesn't really look like they get very much at all. A 3 level dip of Armorist would provide 3 magic talents, CL 1, maybe 4-5 spell points total, a +1 bound weapon, the ability to summon a +1 weapon for 3 minutes as a move action for a spell point, 1 arsenal trick which is just a feat, and armor training. The low caster level, few talents, and few spell points make it hard to pick anything particularly amazing from the spheres. So I'm sorry, I don't understand how Armorist is good at all for a Zealot dip, but that could be because of my inexperience. If there's something flagrantly obvious I'm missing, could you please explain it?

[Mithril Leaf]

I'm nowhere near experienced enough with Spheres of Power to give advice about it. I've read the wiki (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/) and played in one level 1 session with it, that's all. But looking at the Armorist, (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/armorist) it doesn't really look like they get very much at all. A 3 level dip of Armorist would provide 3 magic talents, CL 1, maybe 4-5 spell points total, a +1 bound weapon, the ability to summon a +1 weapon for 3 minutes as a move action for a spell point, 1 arsenal trick which is just a feat, and armor training. The low caster level, few talents, and few spell points make it hard to pick anything particularly amazing from the spheres. So I'm sorry, I don't understand how Armorist is good at all for a Zealot dip, but that could be because of my inexperience. If there's something flagrantly obvious I'm missing, could you please explain it?

Ah my friend, you see there are two core components. The Whitesmith Archetype, and Casting Tradition Boons. Whitesmith means that Enhancements placed on your equipment doesn't require concentration. If you basically take all of the Drawbacks so that casting only works out of combat, you can have potentially a +10 bonus on spells cast out of combat from Boons. You can also take a trait for another +2 when out of Spell Points. This means that 3 levels give you a nice 15 Caster levels, plus a +1 bonus from the class itself. So you have a +5 weapon and armor and shield at level 3 which is nice.

The second part is that if you take the Wild Magic feat which gives you the ability to pick up a single talent from a sphere you possess. You can now provide your +5 weapon with weightlessness, corrosive, flaming, frost, or shock properties which each have +7 additional damage, another +1 bonus, and keen. The Arsenal Trick is nice for picking up any movement mode you need via Movement, or whatever you like.

Plus later on you can pick up a +5 staff and provide another +1 bonus along with your Energy damage improving to 1d6+10. It's some really good stuff.

[Lord_Gareth]

I'm not really sure that crossing 3pp like that is a great idea for a guide, Leaf. The two products were not even remotely made with each other in mind.

[Mithril Leaf]

I'm not really sure that crossing 3pp like that is a great idea for a guide, Leaf. The two products were not even remotely made with each other in mind.

I mean fair enough Gareth, it may not fit the guide. Consider though the fact that Steelforge literally has several items designed for crossing pieces of 3pp from these two publishers.

So if one is running Spheres of Power and also Path of War, two products that cover very different design spaces and have a net effect of bringing both martials and casters closer to tier 3, it might be worth mentioning. Maybe not though, not my guide.

[Castilonium]

Ah my friend, you see there are two core components. The Whitesmith Archetype, and Casting Tradition Boons. Whitesmith means that Enhancements placed on your equipment doesn't require concentration. If you basically take all of the Drawbacks so that casting only works out of combat, you can have potentially a +10 bonus on spells cast out of combat from Boons. You can also take a trait for another +2 when out of Spell Points. This means that 3 levels give you a nice 15 Caster levels, plus a +1 bonus from the class itself. So you have a +5 weapon and armor and shield at level 3 which is nice.

The second part is that if you take the Wild Magic feat which gives you the ability to pick up a single talent from a sphere you possess. You can now provide your +5 weapon with weightlessness, corrosive, flaming, frost, or shock properties which each have +7 additional damage, another +1 bonus, and keen. The Arsenal Trick is nice for picking up any movement mode you need via Movement, or whatever you like.

Plus later on you can pick up a +5 staff and provide another +1 bonus along with your Energy damage improving to 1d6+10. It's some really good stuff.

Let me see if I can follow you.

Whitesmith Armorist 3: CL 3 with enhancement
Deathful Magic: +2 CL when at 1/4th HP
Draw Magic: +2 CL when with 30 feet of 6 creatures under the effects of your sphere abilities
Empowered Abilities: +2 CL when you have 0 spell points
Overcharge: +2 CL for one spell and you become fatigued
Mystic Training trait: +2 CL when you have 0 spell points
That's a CL of 13 total. Metamagic Expert doesn't work, because there are no +0 level increase metamagic feats that can be used with Enhance Item, unless you can use Merciful Spell because it doesn't exclude any spells in its description from being made Merciful, even non-damaging ones. And I don't think the +1 CL from Armorist 2 stacks with a Whitesmith using their class level as their CL for enhancement on objects. I think it means that a Whitesmith has high caster progression for enhancement on objects instead of low caster progression. If you allow Merciful Spell, that's a CL of 14.

You need 8 (or 10) general drawbacks. That would have to be Emotional Casting, Focus Casting, Magical Signs, Material Casting, Painful Magic, Prepared Caster, Rigorous Concentration, Verbal Casting. Maybe Extended Casting (2). And Material Casting has a designer's note informing GMs not to allow players to take it if it will be easily countered.

You have the Enhancement sphere for free, and 3 talents. You need a way to activate the bonus of Draw Magic, so you need 6+ friends and a spell which costs no spell points and remains on them without concentration. So one of your talents needs to be the Light sphere to make your friends Glow. One would be Greater Enhancement, and the last would be Energy Weapon. I don't think Lighten or Keen are worth spending a feat on for a Zealot.

Then the enhancement bonus of your gear will be as follows:
Enhance Equipment spell CL 14: +3
Personal Refinement from Whitesmith 3: +1
Greater Enhancement talent: +1
+5 total. It would be +6 if you could get your CL up to 15.

All together, you spend 3 levels, 1 trait, and possibly 1 feat. And in return, you gain +3/1/1 saves, +3 BAB, +3d10 HD, 0 usable spell points, 0 usable spells during the rest of the day other than Glow, 1 arsenal trick, a +5 flaming weapon, +5 armor, and a +5 shield (total value 122000 gp).

Well, that's a pretty cool trick, I suppose. But it seems like more of a trick for low level martial characters in general, and has no real bearing on Zealots at all. Even though it makes for a big chunk of attack bonus and AC in early levels, I think that other dips already listed in my guide are genuinely better than this trick for a Zealot. It loses all of its value at higher levels, too. It also has huge potential for the GM to screw with you, but that's neither here nor there. The point of dips is to add unique and useful functionality that you can't get from pure Zealot levels or wealth.

Sorry, I don't think I'll be putting Spheres of Power Stuff in my guide, at least not until I finish all of the other disciplines. People say that SoP is high quality 3pp much like DSP, so I'm not completely opposed to the idea. If I do put SoP stuff in, it'll have a big disclaimer and whatnot. This trick just doesn't fit in a Zealot guide, is all. But thank you for showing it to me :smallsmile:

[digiman619]

I'm not really sure that crossing 3pp like that is a great idea for a guide, Leaf. The two products were not even remotely made with each other in mind.

Yeah, who'd (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493133-Legacy-of-Fire-PoW-SoP-Edition!-(IC-Thread)) make a game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21266375&postcount=9) that focused (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?506281-Has-anyone-run-played-Rise-of-the-Drow-(AAW)&highlight=path+of+war+spheres+of+power) on both? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502191-Klatu-Barbada-Nik-I-Know-Your-Damn-Words!-PF-Gestalt-INVITATION-ONLY&highlight=path+of+war+spheres+of+power) That'd be ridiculous! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?506554-Pathfinder-Skybourne-Spheres-of-Power-Wizard-s-Academy)

[Mithril Leaf]

Stuff

Ah, seems like you're missing a few bit (although it's not specifically a Zealot trick indeed, just a nice martial bonus).

First is Sphere Specific Drawbacks, so dump some of those on Enhancement for additional free talents and also Everglow on your Light Sphere. That gets you some nice permanently available bonuses.
Second is the Wild Magic handbook, which included a boon for another +2, as well as the following Feat:

Inspired Surge (Wild Magic)
Prerequisites: casting class feature
Benefit: When casting a sphere effect, you may increase the wild magic chance by 100% to add a single talent that you do not possess from one of the effect’s base spheres to the effect. For every 5 wild magic feats you possess, increase the number of talents gained this way by +1.

That means (as you don't have to concentrate for any Enhancement talent) that you can access every single Enhancement talent on your own gear. So now we're back up to a +6 bonus and every possible object enhancement.
Third is that there's nothing stopping you from adding Flaming and Frost and Corrosive and Shock on the same weapon, thus giving you 4d6+28 damage, although most of the time it'll be lower. Plus Keen. Plus Dispel resistance. Plus Bleed. And you can get tricky with some Bestow Intelligence things, but I'm not sure how that actually would work out.
Fourth is that money has value and also that 80% of games don't go past 12 or so. This means for the full total of game time, you will have far better Arms and Armor than the rest of the party and also the monster you'd fight. It's worth at least a few points of additional Attack and far more than that of addition Damage.

All that being said, it's way better for E6 games and not Zealot specific. If you do decide to have a footnote for SoP, consider including it. It's generally a pretty good time.

[Lord_Gareth]

Yeah, who'd (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493133-Legacy-of-Fire-PoW-SoP-Edition!-(IC-Thread)) make a game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21266375&postcount=9) that focused (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?506281-Has-anyone-run-played-Rise-of-the-Drow-(AAW)&highlight=path+of+war+spheres+of+power) on both? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502191-Klatu-Barbada-Nik-I-Know-Your-Damn-Words!-PF-Gestalt-INVITATION-ONLY&highlight=path+of+war+spheres+of+power) That'd be ridiculous! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?506554-Pathfinder-Skybourne-Spheres-of-Power-Wizard-s-Academy)

And that's on those GMs, not the products. People unfamiliar with these will read guides, like this one, to gain a better understanding of the material. Crossing the streams, especially to use exploits or dips only possible through the combination, warps the perception of both products without it actually being the fault of either.

The two being used together commonly is not the same as the two being made with each other in mind.

[digiman619]

And that's on those GMs, not the products. People unfamiliar with these will read guides, like this one, to gain a better understanding of the material. Crossing the streams, especially to use exploits or dips only possible through the combination, warps the perception of both products without it actually being the fault of either.

The two being used together commonly is not the same as the two being made with each other in mind.

Tell that to the War Shifter (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/warshifter), a SoP archetype that grants PoW maneuvers.

[Lord_Gareth]

Tell that to the War Shifter (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/warshifter), a SoP archetype that grants PoW maneuvers.

Which is Drop Dead Studios' affair and none of ours; it's certainly not an argument to include SoP dips in a Zealot guide, a class notably absent of any crossover support.

[digiman619]

Which is Drop Dead Studios' affair and none of ours; it's certainly not an argument to include SoP dips in a Zealot guide, a class notably absent of any crossover support.

I suppose so. Still, we can dream, no?

[Mithril Leaf]

Which is Drop Dead Studios' affair and none of ours; it's certainly not an argument to include SoP dips in a Zealot guide, a class notably absent of any crossover support.

Once again Gareth, you guys very much have items in Steelforge that are specifically intended to interact with Spheres of Power. You are welcome to continue believing that it doesn't have a place in this Zealot handbook. However, pretending that you guys aren't aware of each other is intellectually dishonest. Although I suppose it could be of the CYA variety, from a legal perspective.

[Forrestfire]

Once again Gareth, you guys very much have items in Steelforge that are specifically intended to interact with Spheres of Power. You are welcome to continue believing that it doesn't have a place in this Zealot handbook. However, pretending that you guys aren't aware of each other is intellectually dishonest. Although I suppose it could be of the CYA variety, from a legal perspective.

I think that's a very different situation. Steelforge does have some minor items that, if I recall correctly, were some very minor things written in collaboration with DDS, but it's not mixing entire subsystems, just encouraging people to take a look at two different publishers' products. One thing, though, doesn't mean that the companies are suddenly partnered up, nor that we're in active communication or collaboration with each other.

DSP's stuff, and Path of War in particular, is written to be balanced against itself and Paizo's products. Accounting for Spheres of Power and similar things have never come up the in balance and design discussions we have, because we believe that it's not just dishonest, but dangerous, to mix different 3pps' stuff without heavy collaboration. Spheres of Power is not balanced around Path of War (though it does have some things that interact with it, they were not written by DSP or in collaboration with us beyond a heads-up that they were being written at all). Likewise, Path of War is not balanced against (and, in my opinion, balanced properly with the inclusion of) Spheres of Power.

Because of this, I think that mixing them and suggesting mixing them without being very careful of what's being mixed (particularly when recommending power-increasing multiclasses) should be done with a fairly large and clear disclaimer that the group out to vet this first. They're products that were not written with the intention of using them together, and as such, many things break or create unpredictable results when this happens.

One similar thing to note that might help shed some perspective on this: I've started my own 3pp company on the side, and while I do go to my friends at DSP for assistance with design decisions, my work with the Spellburst Savant and Avowed are certainly not being accounted for in DSP's own materials. I would never expect nor encourage that, unless it was being brought under the DSP umbrella (which the Avowed is not; some later projects might, and those would be written around). Likewise, the Avowed class' options, math, and balance does not account for the intricacies of Path of War, because Path of War being in play creates a different sort of game that in some cases makes designing around it difficult. Do they work together? With care. Would I use them together in a game? Definitely. Would I say that every option in my outside-company work is balanced with every option that DSP has produced? Certainly not.

While the rules are, ultimately, the final arbiter for how things work on the page, I think that in this case, intent matters significantly. Including sections in the guide on the assumption that the 3pps will be mixed muddles the value of the guide (because the Zealot in an environment without Spheres of Power is very different from one with it), and potentially hurts both companies producing the material, if things interact in overly powerful ways and turn players and GMs off of the system.

It's not that the subsystems don't have an equal place. It's not that the companies aren't aware of each other (we are). It's that when a handbook is labeled "Path of War," that's a statement about the expectations and material allowed. If it's actually "Path of War, Spheres of Power, and how to mix them with maximum efficiency" (which would be a neat guide to see, if it had disclaimers about the above), that'd be a very different story.

[upho]

All that being said, it's way better for E6 games and not Zealot specific. If you do decide to have a footnote for SoP, consider including it. It's generally a pretty good time.I haven't had a chance to test out SoP yet, but this is my impression as well. But perhaps you could write a SoP addendum for the guide which Castilonium could link to?

Personally I'd be very wary of including any non-DSP 3PP material in a guide for a DSP class. In the specific case of SoP, I suspect not primarily because of what Gareth said, but rather because of the many options to rate and the huge number of additional possibilities and combos to consider. Considering how much work it takes just to get the 1PP stuff down and keep it updated, without sharing some of the load I'd feel overwhelmed if I also had to include stuff from a second 3PP. Especially since both DSP and DDS, not to mention Paizo, are pretty active publishers.



WOW! I had no idea I had the MoMS monk so incredibly wrong. But luckily, it's still a purple dip! Thanks for not only fixing my embarrassing mistakes, but also giving me loads more info and suggestions!

Maybe I'll have another gander at the Paizo style feats and see if any of them are worth nabbing with a MoMS dip and putting in the guide.You might wanna check out Ascetic Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ascetic-style-combat-style) (the "effects that augment" part makes this ripe for shenanigans) and perhaps Dragon Ferocity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-ferocity-combat) (for US zealots) and Grabbing Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/grabbing-style-combat-style) (for fiendbound marauder dippers).

And while I'm at it...

Weapons, One hander: If you’re a Maenad, you’re proficient with all flails, so pick a scorpion whip for a one-handed reach weapon!
While you can attack foes both adjacent and up to 15' away with a scorpion whip (as a Maenad), without feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/whip-mastery-combat) you provoke when using it as a whip (when attacking beyond adjacent). Most importantly, without additional feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-whip-mastery-combat), the whip doesn't give you threatening reach (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/whip) (my emphasis): "The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack." And RAW, even if you have these feats, regardless of your size or that of your whip it won't ever threaten beyond your natural reach +5', unlike "proper" reach weapons which scale their threatening reach to size (up to your natural reach +30'). All things considered, I don't think any version of whip is a good weapon even for a maenad.


Weapons, Two hander: So you'd basically want a "flail-on-a-pole" for both EG and SG maneuvers? OK, simply dump the "-on-a-" part, and voila: flailpole (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/flailpole)! :smallbiggrin:
2-handed 1d8/x2 with reach and trip, and demands you're a maenad or taking a COWPIS. *giggles*

(And yeah, the flailpole hasn't yet been sorted into fighter weapon groups. So in the unlikely event someone's GM doesn't see how the name makes the sorting kinda self-explanatory, said GM may consider searching the description - "This is simply a heavy flail mounted on the end of a long polearm." - and perhaps this pic of a RL flailpole (http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww71/chalklands/khanda/Pata/Katar/Polearms/flail/FlailPR.jpg) for hints... :smallwink:)


Magic Weapon Enhancements: Dueling (PFSG): Every +1 bonus on your weapon now gives you a total of +3 to a specific combat maneuver.
It's even better (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-weapons#TOC-Dueling): "When a dueling weapon is used to perform a combat maneuver that utilizes the weapon only (see below), it grants..." /snip/ "These combat maneuvers include disarm and trip..." /snip/ "..also includes any dirty trick maneuvers that utilize the weapon, as well as reposition..." So it doesn't just affect one specific combat maneuver, it boosts all dirty trick, disarm, reposition and trip attempts performed with the weapon (and all corresponding CMD values).

Speaking of, this gets really hilarious when combined with Leveraging (´http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/leveraging) and used to trip (or reposition). Yes, RAW they stack, effectively granting from +6 (+1 weapon) up to +30 (+5 weapon) on the CMB check... And for raging zealots adding Furious (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/furious) this trip bonus becomes absolutely insane; from +18 to +42! Talk about power trip... :smalleek:


Dipping and Multiclassing Are you gonna add PrCs to the guide as well? If so, a rage surge wilder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/wilder) 1 (or more) makes for pretty great dip to go with awakened blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/awakened-blade). Besides Cha-based rage, tons of extra PP and easier access to stuff like minor metamorphosis, this combo gives some darn tasty goodies in higher levels, such as free psionic focus regain with maneuver recovery, immediate-to-standard action shenanigans, access to metamorphosis (go Huge or Gargantuan!), and last but not least, (eventually constant) insight bonuses to attack, damage, AC and saves equal to 1/3 of IL.

(I've actually put together a demoralizing test build with the above combo and a few other dips. Turned out to be very strong although it sacrifices some early level power for high level greatness, but this is mostly a good thing for front-loaded martials IME).

[Mithril Leaf]

Stuff
Yes that's all well and good. Hence why I specifically asked if Castilonium was interested in including Spheres of Power material. At every step I have said that it is entirely reasonable for it not to go in the guide, only posting it in case Castilonium did decide to include it.

My problem was the way Gareth, in my eyes at least, seemed to imply that mixing third party material was badwrongfun, and that one shouldn't play with both Spheres of Power and Path of War. I found it somewhat rude, as he was totally fine with the inclusion of other third party material specifically by Dreamscarred Press in the form of Akashic Mysteries. Thus it came off to me as a somewhat egotistical statement, although it's entirely likely that wasn't the intention. In any case, I still have the utmost respect for DSP as a whole and all the members of it's crew. Also we've probably taken up far too much space going back and forth about this. So I shall assume that for now at least Castilonium is not going to specifically include SoP material, as mentioned earlier. If someone should wish for my opinion on how to mix that material with most martials for maximum benefit though, I shall offer my knowledge.

Back on topic, refinement charms for increasing collective members are dirt cheap and potentially useful. Having 20+ members in your collective can be quite nice. Especially very small ones with flying, if you can persuade some birds or pixies to help.

[upho]

My problem was the way Gareth, in my eyes at least, seemed to imply that mixing third party material was badwrongfun, and that one shouldn't play with both Spheres of Power and Path of War. I found it somewhat rude, as he was totally fine with the inclusion of other third party material specifically by Dreamscarred Press in the form of Akashic Mysteries.FWIW, I didn't feel like there was any badwrongfun attitude in Gareth's posts, only a concern about giving guide readers the wrong perception of stuff from either publisher. Which is a concern I can certainly understand. And of course there's little need to worry about AM or other DSP stuff in this regard, since DSP material is designed to jam well with other/previous DSP material.

Regardless, I think there may be quite a few people who would appreciate an addendum specifically for SoP options. And again, provided Castilonium is interested, I really do think you seem to be a great candidate for writing it, Leaf!


Back on topic, refinement charms for increasing collective members are dirt cheap and potentially useful. Having 20+ members in your collective can be quite nice. Especially very small ones with flying, if you can persuade some birds or pixies to help.That's a pretty nifty spying/assassination trick. But I think it's going to have to wait, and for a good reason IMO:
I don't have other DSP releases like Bloodforge, Steelforge, or Lords of the Night. If I buy them in the future, I'll add material from them to the guide...

[PsionMage]

boosts do not lock out counters, like much of your guide's language implies.

Counters lock out boosts. If you use an immediate action, the next round's swift becomes unavailable.

I think this makes Minute Hand purple. You have language that says that a counter is better, but if you don't use a counter, your swift will be worthless if you don't use it for a boost. I would think that since you can recover your maneuvers (almost) every round, you should always want at least (and maybe at most) 1 boost readied to maximize your action economy for the cases that you didn't use a counter. A great example: you get attacked by 2 mooks but decide not to use your counter in anticipation of being attacked by the BBEG, but he ends up not attacking you. Boosts save the day in that case by not "wasting" your swift action.

As for why Minute Hand should be purple: at low levels this doubles your attacks for a round (not counting AoO) which is pretty big. It gets slightly less effective at higher levels, but until another boost's damage potential is more beneficial for a round than another attack, this one wins for damage potential. Even if you don't agree, please at least change the text for Minute Hand so it says something more along the lines of "when you haven't used a counter, this is one of the best things you can do" (no bias in there at all... :smallbiggrin:)

[khadgar567]

okay time to stir some nitroglycerin and hope we have potion of eternal life last time I checked dream scared press and drop dead studios has setting called skybourne aka they already working together on some projects and on pathfinder forum guys at drop dead studios asked what kind a next product you want and guess what major part of the treat asked martial expansion on sphere system ( you gonna ask do you have any proof. and yes around January i asked is there and new sphere brewing like blood question on creator of spheres ask me any thing threat and on paizo fofums they said they are developing blood sphere) so i can with good concussion say that we gonna get martial add on / fusion with path of war so lets wait until we have the book shall we

[Forrestfire]

okay time to stir some nitroglycerin and hope we have potion of eternal life last time I checked dream scared press and drop dead studios has setting called skybourne aka they already working together on some projects and on pathfinder forum guys at drop dead studios asked what kind a next product you want and guess what major part of the treat asked martial expansion on sphere system ( you gonna ask do you have any proof. and yes around January i asked is there and new sphere brewing like blood question on creator of spheres ask me any thing threat and on paizo fofums they said they are developing blood sphere) so i can with good concussion say that we gonna get martial add on / fusion with path of war so lets wait until we have the book shall we

Well... Skybourne is Drop Dead Studios' campaign setting, but Dreamscarred Press is completely uninvolved with it. As I noted above (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505647-Unity-and-Determination-Castilonium%92s-guide-to-the-Path-of-War-Zealot&p=21440329&viewfull=1#post21440329), while DSP and DDS have worked together on some small things, most of the stuff that crosses over the subsystems is not collaborated on except for giving the other company a heads up. It's entirely possible that DSP freelancers have worked with DDS freelancers (I've had the good fortune of being able to discuss my own freelance projects with some Spheres people, for example).

As one of the creative directors at Dreamscarred Press, I can confirm that there are no current plans for any large crossovers between DDS and DSP, particularly involving Path of War. We do know that Drop Dead Studios has been planning their own martial supplement (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ttyv?Drop-Dead-Studios-What-do-you-Want#20), but even if it involves interactions with Path of War, we at DSP are not involved in it. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing how it's done, though, as someone whose group uses DDS content often (and yes, alongside DSP stuff, though we often need to be careful what mixes and how because of accidental balance issues from mixing two unrelated companies' products). :smallsmile:

[khadgar567]

Well... Skybourne is Drop Dead Studios' campaign setting, but Dreamscarred Press is completely uninvolved with it. As I noted above (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505647-Unity-and-Determination-Castilonium%92s-guide-to-the-Path-of-War-Zealot&p=21440329&viewfull=1#post21440329), while DSP and DDS have worked together on some small things, most of the stuff that crosses over the subsystems is not collaborated on except for giving the other company a heads up. It's entirely possible that DSP freelancers have worked with DDS freelancers (I've had the good fortune of being able to discuss my own freelance projects with some Spheres people, for example).

As one of the creative directors at Dreamscarred Press, I can confirm that there are no current plans for any large crossovers between DDS and DSP, particularly involving Path of War. We do know that Drop Dead Studios has been planning their own martial supplement (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ttyv?Drop-Dead-Studios-What-do-you-Want#20), but even if it involves interactions with Path of War, we at DSP are not involved in it. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing how it's done, though, as someone whose group uses DDS content often (and yes, alongside DSP stuff, though we often need to be careful what mixes and how because of accidental balance issues from mixing two unrelated companies' products). :smallsmile:
well here it is folks from the nearest first party person its official they are working on martial of power book series thanks you forrest for verify my little prediction

[Forrestfire]

well here it is folks from the nearest first party person its official they are working on martial of power book series thanks you forrest for verify my little prediction

I just said that we are not working on anything together with DDS right now. DDS has stated that they're working on a martial book of their own, but their project is unrelated to any of ours. :smallconfused:

[khadgar567]

I just said that we are not working on anything together with DDS right now. DDS has stated that they're working on a martial book of their own, but their project is unrelated to any of ours. :smallconfused:
they may not working together but you just confirm drop dead studios guys are making their own sphere based martial supplement until know we only have theories and bunch of request.

[Forrestfire]

they may not working together but you just confirm drop dead studios guys are making their own sphere based martial supplement until know we only have theories and bunch of request.

I didn't confirm that, Adam Meyers did, in the post by him that I linked.

[khadgar567]

I didn't confirm that, Adam Meyers did, in the post by him that I linked.
that'S much better looks like Christmas came 30 days early.

[exelsisxax]

they may not working together but you just confirm drop dead studios guys are making their own sphere based martial supplement until know we only have theories and bunch of request.

He didn't say anything about it being sphere based. I don't know how you turned "we're doing some martial stuff" into "DSP and DDS are working together on SoP initiating"

[khadgar567]

He didn't say anything about it being sphere based. I don't know how you turned "we're doing some martial stuff" into "DSP and DDS are working together on SoP initiating"
wild guess but ladies and gentleman one of the after mentioned companies employees. so before we even more rail road the treat I am gonna shut up for a while .

[stack]

The DDS martial project is still in early stages. I can say that making it play nice with PoW is desired and that there are people on the project that are fans of PoW.

Any issues with the SoP crossover shifter archetype are totally on me, though I haven't heard any issues. Some DSP people have some helpful notes, but it is very explicitly not supported by DSP.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Riven Hourglass is complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Mithral Current is complete!
(Style Feats) Added Grabbing Style.
(Equipment) Added flailpole and tri-point double-edged sword, and clarified things about the scorpion whip.
(Equipment) Added Furious and Leveraging to weapon enhancements.
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Minute Hand rating changed to purple.

@Mithral Leaf, Thanks for further expounding on that armorist trick. I made some of my friend's craniums asplode by showing it to them :smalltongue:. If you decide to write a guide that combines tricks and synergies between SoP and PoW stuff, I'd be happy to add a link to it!

@PsionMage, Good point, there aren't many good counters for 1st level that you can use on allies reliably. Minute Hand is definitely purple for levels 1 and 2 of your career. But once you get Fear the Reaper, wellllll...

@upho, Thanks for the equipment suggestions, I've tossed them in! And yes, I will eventually add prestige classes that are particularly useful for Zealots. If you have more recommendations, I'd love to hear them! It's nice that DSP prestige classes are so much better than Paizo prestige classes and are actually worth taking a glance at. Is there any better way to qualify for Awakened Blade than Wilder 2, or Wilder 1 + Expanded Knowledge?

The thing about Dragon Ferocity is that it only adds more damage. Sure, potentially a ludicrous amount of damage if you size-stack with lots of strength. But anybody can do damage, and like you said earlier, there's a point when more damage is excessive and pointless. You can only use one (or two) style feat chains at the same time, and Zealots don't have any features that interact with damage-stacking feats, so why not just play any of the other innumerable martial classes that do instead if you want to use Dragon Ferocity?

Ascetic Style looks potentially interesting. You could use a tri-point double-edged sword (a monk group reach weapon with 1d10 damage) and combine it with Dragon Ferocity for oodles of damage, but what else could you do with it that isn't strictly related to damage? I'm hoping there are some nice rider effects you can plop onto unarmed strikes to then use with Ascetic Style.

[upho]

And yes, I will eventually add prestige classes that are particularly useful for Zealots. If you have more recommendations, I'd love to hear them!Unfortunately I think no other PrC fits particularly well with the zealot specifically, since only the Awakened Blade improves the psionic side as well as the initiator side. Well, aside from the 5-level Animus Adept combined with Awakened Animus, which might be rather OK despite the rather annoying Animus Healing requirement, I guess. But for more niche build types, I think there are a few other interesting options, like the casting/initiation merging PrCs Battle Templar (unfortunately move action dependent) and Bladecaster for primarily oracle or sorcerer MC zealots, and Landsknecht 4 could be pretty good for AoO builds and jams well with Pikeman's Training and Haft Strike (which btw is probably often best gained through a Reverents of the Lance membership).

I can't think of any of the other psionic PrCs as worth mentioning, except maybe for some weird build which combines say five levels in a more combat oriented such a psionic PrC with one zealot level, four levels of a psionic class and ten levels of Awakened Blade. But I don't really have the fu to give advice about psionic stuff in general, so it's likely I've missed something here.

And speaking of Martial Traditions, nitpick:
Path of War and Expanded Feats: Mirror of the Moon "You’d need to both join a martial tradition and take the Unorthodox Method trait."
Actually, nothing stops you from joining more than one tradition, provided any alignments requirements match. And naturally it's also preferable if the organizations' oaths, general goals and methods are somewhat compatible, unless you (or your GM) intentionally seek the drama likely to occur when the organizations' opposing demands on you finally clash (at which time you're likely to be kicked out of at least one of them). And for example joining both the Stained Glass Champions and The Wayward Path for both SM and VM plus other minor goodies seems to be highly doable without causing any tension. Though such an option is still very dependent on GM fiat, setting and such of course, so YMMV.



Is there any better way to qualify for Awakened Blade than Wilder 2, or Wilder 1 + Expanded Knowledge?Not AFAIK, but see above regarding my psionics-fu. Though depending on your goals, I guess going psychic warrior could also be good despite being Wis based, notably since AB advances the psychic warrior's path abilities and you can grab the Pathwalker initiating archetype. The Cha based dread might also work for a scary zealot build with a twist, at least with the Nightmare initiating archetype, though I don't see how your terrors can be made to work on anything but very low CR mooks. However, I think it's important to note both these classes require two levels plus all ten levels of AB before their "Max Power Level" reaches 4th and Expanded Knowledge can be taken for metamorphosis (which can be done two levels earlier with a wilder 1/AB 9 build).

Speaking of, if you're willing to trade out some Wis for Int, an egoist psion is of course the quickest and easiest way to gain metamorphosis, being the only class which has native access to it and grants already at psion 1/AB 5. But at least for Str based zealots, I think the wilder is preferable, as no other psionic class grants as much from a single level, mostly because of how useful barbarian rage can be.



The thing about Dragon Ferocity is that it only adds more damage. Sure, potentially a ludicrous amount of damage if you size-stack with lots of strength. But anybody can do damage, and like you said earlier, there's a point when more damage is excessive and pointless. You can only use one (or two) style feat chains at the same time, and Zealots don't have any features that interact with damage-stacking feats, so why not just play any of the other innumerable martial classes that do instead if you want to use Dragon Ferocity?Finally someone speaking my language! :smallbiggrin:

Needless to say, I agree. But if you're not as fantastically creative and progressive as you and I :smallwink:, you may very well still believe in the old "martials must do single-target damage"-doctrine, and go for, say, a destruction damage build. And in that case, US with Dragon Ferocity and TWF might just beat every other damage option, especially if combined with a few Thrashing Dragon standard action multi-attack strikes and natural attacks from race and/or items.



Ascetic Style looks potentially interesting. You could use a tri-point double-edged sword (a monk group reach weapon with 1d10 damage) and combine it with Dragon Ferocity for oodles of damage, but what else could you do with it that isn't strictly related to damage? I'm hoping there are some nice rider effects you can plop onto unarmed strikes to then use with Ascetic Style.There are. Demoralization with Enforcer is great, since you don't take any penalties to deal nonlethal with IUS. The Giant Fist Gauntlets (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gauntlets-giant-fist) with Stance of the Thunderbrand are amazing, giving you up to as many AoOs as your Combat Reflexes allows you to make, all triggered off of one single initial melee attack! And yes, that initial melee attack may come from a strike! Add dirty trick and bull rush feats, Seize the Opportunity, Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp, Wolf Trip and (again) demoralization to really get the control/debuff AoO party going like there's no tomorrow. Who needs full attacks?

When it comes to suitable monk weapons, I like to think of Ascetic Style as a "budget fiend's grip" for those not interested in a warder dip. So yeah, monk reach weapons will be your good friends. But your best friends will be those that also are double, and you're bound to fall on your knees, presenting a COWPIS in a wayfinder, and ask the Kusarigama to marry you for life! And once the wedding's over and you're starting to settle down, you and your loved one will want to start having little kids, specifically cute little things like Minute Hand and standard action multi-attack Thrashing Dragon strikes (as mentioned above), and/or perhaps a couple of Thrashing Dragon style feats... :smalltongue:

[Mithril Leaf]

Now you didn't hear it from me, but technically Aasimar can take racial heritage with the scion of humanity alternate trait. Even if they're nonhuman descendants.

[VoxRationis]

Is there a good, simple way to increase the duration of the mind blades from Sleeping Goddess?

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Elemental Flux complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Shattered Mirror complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Added martial traditions.

@upho, Well! I didn't know that you could take more than one martial tradition. And for free! I wonder how many people have gotten away with cheesing taking as many as they possibly could just for the extra class skills and often times powerful allegiance benefits. Good thing the rules say that the GM has to allow them first.

Along with Awakened Blade, I was definitely looking at Animus Adept. Applying buffs and debuffs as a free action is exactly what Zealots love! I'm not too convinced about Landsknecht 4, though. Stopping at level 2 seems better. Taking another 2 levels only gives you +5 reach and a 1/day ability, and there are plenty of ways of getting reach. But can't argue with the power of uncanny dodge, never outnumbered, and strength of arms!

As for the beloved kusarigama, I think that Golden Lion Command would want to get in on some of that action!

@VoxRationis, there's Riven Hourglass Eternity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats/riven-hourglass-style), but once you can get that, the weapons last 7 rounds. That should be plenty of time to finish a typical combat.

[Lord_Gareth]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Elemental Flux complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Shattered Mirror complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Added martial traditions.

@upho, Well! I didn't know that you could take more than one martial tradition. And for free! I wonder how many people have gotten away with cheesing taking as many as they possibly could just for the extra class skills and often times powerful allegiance benefits. Good thing the rules say that the GM has to allow them first.

Along with Awakened Blade, I was definitely looking at Animus Adept. Applying buffs and debuffs as a free action is exactly what Zealots love! I'm not too convinced about Landsknecht 4, though. Stopping at level 2 seems better. Taking another 2 levels only gives you +5 reach and a 1/day ability, and there are plenty of ways of getting reach. But can't argue with the power of uncanny dodge, never outnumbered, and strength of arms!

As for the beloved kusarigama, I think that Golden Lion Command would want to get in on some of that action!

@VoxRationis, there's Riven Hourglass Eternity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats/riven-hourglass-style), but once you can get that, the weapons last 7 rounds. That should be plenty of time to finish a typical combat.

We left that particular bit of RAW open because I didn't want to make fluff statements about your world or game, or how that world or game potentially treats divided loyalties. However, as you note, allegiance benefits are strictly optional for that reason as well.

[Mithril Leaf]

Wow, how did I forget to mention one of the very best purchases for a Zealot?

Reach into your local copy of Seventh Path, and page on over to page 39, then head down to the bottom. You see that power, Scales of Damnation? A nice 4th level spell, it provides some pretty sweet insight bonuses. Then head to the top of the next page and look at the augments. The first one allows you to gain twice your charisma modifier in temporary Power Points as a standard action, which lasts until you give energy. You can increase the spell's duration through taking hit point damage and healing. A Power Stone of this power augmented with 6 PP costs about 1,300 GP. The Zealot is very limited in PP per day and also has a high charisma and access to healing. I'm sure you can do the math.

In case you don't have the book, the playtest is fundamentally unchanged. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_DKnAARY4I9Q16jCacwm2X-KVmnKObs6J_FBIgZrOc8/mobilebasic)

And if there is errata, someone please freaking link me to where I can find DSP errata. I'm pretty sure it's a myth.

[TiaC]

This looks like a great guide!

A few little tricks I've found:

Improved Quick Draw allows you to threaten with whips by this text "You are considered to be threatening all squares within reach of your weapon even if it is sheathed".

If Starknives being light weapons is a problem (Maybe you want to use Cornugon Smash), you can use an oversized starknife and have a one-handed weapon for a -2 penalty to attack.

The new Psicrystals Augmented has some great options. The Implanted Psicristal gives you a big initiative boost, a version of see in darkness, telepathy, doubles the personality's benefit and can allow you to shrug off a mind-effecting effect. The psicrystal weapon lets you regain focus whenever you drop an enemy to 0, and Psicrystal Reservoir allows your psicrystal to refocus itself.

If you have a way to hit as a touch attack, an Amulet of the Blooded (Aberrant) will increase your reach. This can easily be gained through veilshaping.

[upho]

Wow, how did I forget to mention one of the very best purchases for a Zealot?

Reach into your local copy of Seventh Path, and page on over to page 39, then head down to the bottom. You see that power, Scales of Damnation? A nice 4th level spell, it provides some pretty sweet insight bonuses. Then head to the top of the next page and look at the augments. The first one allows you to gain twice your charisma modifier in temporary Power Points as a standard action, which lasts until you give energy. You can increase the spell's duration through taking hit point damage and healing. A Power Stone of this power augmented with 6 PP costs about 1,300 GP. The Zealot is very limited in PP per day and also has a high charisma and access to healing. I'm sure you can do the math.Whoa, sweet! And it seems it's actually even better: "These power points disappear when the power ends", so the TPP don't disappear when you sacrifice hp (like the insight bonuses do). The hp loss is so insignificant you could probably easily keep this going practically forever outside of combat in higher levels. Too bad the TPP "refueling" costs a standard and the other bonuses are insight and thus kinda (or totally) redundant with AB.

Speaking of, how do you bypass the ML 13 gifted blade/conduit/psy-war/tactician requirement (or the DC 33 UMD check)?

[Mithril Leaf]

Whoa, sweet! And it seems it's actually even better: "These power points disappear when the power ends", so the TPP don't disappear when you sacrifice hp (like the insight bonuses do). The hp loss is so insignificant you could probably easily keep this going practically forever outside of combat in higher levels. Too bad the TPP "refueling" costs a standard and the other bonuses are insight and thus kinda (or totally) redundant with AB.

Speaking of, how do you bypass the ML 13 gifted blade/conduit/psy-war/tactician requirement (or the DC 33 UMD check)?

Creation with Psionic Meditation gives you 4*(your level) in healing per round, as basically a move action. So at say, level 4 you can gain 32 HP per two rounds. Alternate giving and taking. You net 7 round for every round you spend, and thus must spend 4 hours or so a day charging your batteries. Buy a horse or something.

As far as I can tell there's not too easy a way to hit that DC 33 UMD check. However it's not too implausible. A masterwork tool, Dangerously Curious, +3 from Charisma and max ranks gets you to +13 at level 4, which means taking twenty makes it doable. Have a few days of downtime in case you roll some 1s. Note that this is all somewhat costly, but it's not a bad investment in general, as UMD is a good skill to have. Just don't active blindly.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Shattered Mirror complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Veiled Moon complete!
(Path of War & Expanded Feats) Added Improved Quick Draw
(Psionic Feats) Added Psicrystal Reservoir
(Equipment) Added Amulet of the Blooded (Aberrant)

TiaC found me in the google chat room while I was working on the guide, and had a lovely chat with me full of useful advice! Thanks, TiaC <3

Still, I'm not completely sure that Improved Quick Draw lets you threaten with whips. I think the "You are considered to be threatening all squares within reach of your weapon even if it is sheathed" text overrides the general rule that sheathed weapons don't threaten, not the specific rule that whips don't threaten. I don't want to mislead people or sprinkle a bunch of "Ask your GM" notes in the guide, but I put it in this time.

@Mithral Leaf, that's quite an impressive trick! Too bad it really only works with Creation Mission Zealots. I hadn't heard of Seventh Page before, just like I hadn't heard of Psicrystals Augmented until TiaC told me, so thanks for the tip! Who knows, maybe if I put things like this in my guide, it might mean an extra sale or two for DSP. Or it might make some GMs spontaneously combust in horror and forbid PoW or psionics material. I'll think about adding it.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Broken Blade complete!
(Equipment) Added a Discipline Weapon Group Cheat Sheet™.

♪♫ Tis the season to be busy, fa la la la la, la la, la, la~ ♪♫

[Mithril Leaf]

So it might not be specific to the Zealot, but you are wielding both a shield and something else in most cases so consider using greater transforming, training arrows for your weaponry. Both of those are from Inner Sea Intrigue. Page 52. Much of JaronK's Shuriken guide applies.

[AlienFromBeyond]

I don't understand this "gamla-heritage" thing that lets you be Large-sized with Aasimar/Skinwalker/Tiefling races, it's not explained anywhere. Is this using Racial Heritage feat somehow, or some kind of Alter Self effect?

[Elricaltovilla]

I don't understand this "gamla-heritage" thing that lets you be Large-sized with Aasimar/Skinwalker/Tiefling races, it's not explained anywhere. Is this using Racial Heritage feat somehow, or some kind of Alter Self effect?

It comes from this:




Not all aasimar are descended from humans. Aasimars can be born of any intelligent race, though human aasimars are the most common. Aasimars of other races usually exemplify the ideals of beauty and skill as seen by their base race. For example, halfling aasimars are small, beautifully proportioned, and display exceptional grace. Half-orc aasimars are slightly larger and stronger than ordinary orcs, with tough skin and metallic claws and tusks—they are likely to be neutral rather than evil, but still display aggression and incredible combat prowess. Less common humanoids, such as lizardfolk, catfolk, tengus, and others, can also produce aasimars, though given these races’ exotic appearance, members of the more common races may have trouble telling such aasimars apart from their kin.

It should be noted that while any creature that breeds with a celestial may give birth to half-celestial offspring, only humanoids can give birth to aasimars. Thus, while it’s possible to encounter a half-celestial dragon, unicorn, or griffon, any children of such creatures would be either half-celestials or normal members of their race. (And just as often, these less conventional half-celestials are sterile.) When discussing half-celestials and aasimars, it’s important to distinguish them from both true celestials (angels, azatas, agathions, etc.) and simple celestial creatures (creatures with the celestial template, which are themselves denizens of the good-aligned Outer Planes but similar in many ways to their Material Plane counterparts). Most aasimars also have a difficult time getting people to grasp distinctions between celestial types, with common folk erroneously grouping all such beings together as “angels.”

Non-human aasimars have the same statistics as human aasimars with the exception of size. Thus a halfling aasimar is Small but otherwise possesses the same statistics and abilities as a human aasimar—the difference is purely cosmetic. Non-human aasimars do not possess any of the racial abilities of their base race. However, they are usually raised in the same cultural context as other members of their base race, and thus generally adopt the same fighting style as their peers, use the same types of weapons and armor, and study the same skills.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Black Seraph complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Silver Crane complete!
(Paizo Feats) Added Pageant of the Peacock.

@Mithral Leaf, I don't understand how that works. Greater Transformative can't become ammunition, so why would you be able to enchant arrows with it? And you have to enchant 50 arrows with the same thing, so you wouldn't be able to enchant each individual arrow with a different feat for Training, would you? I don't think you can simply craft a single arrow, you have to craft them in batches of 50. Am I mistaken? And could you please link the guide you mentioned?

[upho]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Black Seraph complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Silver Crane complete!
(Paizo Feats) Added Pageant of the Peacock.Wohoo! Looks nice. A couple of things:

Black Seraph "Note All Black Seraph maneuvers have the [evil] descriptor." "Final Ruling ...but the fact that you have to be Evil to use Black Seraph puts it out of reach of many."
Actually, far from all of the maneuvers have the [evil] tag (like Black Seraph's Glare (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/black-seraph-maneuvers/black-seraph-s-glare-1)), and you don't need to be Evil in order to use any of them. You may eventually become Evil if you use those with the tag too often of course, but that's a rather different issue, since by doing Good deeds you may compensate for using those Evil maneuvers and keep your non-Evil alignment. It's also perfectly fine for a Good zealot to get into Black Seraph (though they cannot do so by joining the Black Thorn Knights).

Paizo Feats I think you should add Dirty Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-fighting-combat) to the list. Often considerably better than the alternatives, allowing you to finally get rid of that pesky Int 13 prereq which will otherwise typically keep you from a huge pile of potentially great combat maneuver feats during many levels.

Keep up the great work!

[Powerdork]

And you have to enchant 50 arrows with the same thing, so you wouldn't be able to enchant each individual arrow with a different feat for Training, would you? I don't think you can simply craft a single arrow, you have to craft them in batches of 50. Am I mistaken?

The only mentions of 50-pieces-of-ammunition rules state the base price for a given grade of weapon: "For ammunition, this price is for 50 arrows, bolts, or bullets," then state that "A character can activate the special abilities of 50 pieces of ammunition at the same time, assuming each piece has identical abilities." They do not specify that these items are created separately or in lots of 50, or that they all need to be from the same batch, merely that they must have identical abilities to be activated simultaneously.
So, for instance, a +1 flaming arrow created on the first of the month by the wizard Merasmus is "+1 flaming" for the purposes of activation, not "a +1 flaming arrow created on the first of the month by the wizard Merasmus". The only ambiguity is whether or not a +1 flaming burst arrow crafted on the last day of the last month of the last year is "+1 flaming" given flaming burst functions as flaming. Regardless, you can take a standard action to issue a command word activating up to 50 +1 flaming arrows/bolts/bullets/shuriken, or up to 50 +1 flaming merciful arrows/bolts/bullets/shuriken (or other ammunition types or other item quality sets).

Rules that do not make any claim about how many projectiles you can or must enhance at once: the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat text, the rules for masterwork weapons and projectiles, the rules on CRB 467-468 for what magic weapons are, the rules for magic item creation on CRB 548-549, the rules for creating magic weapons on CRB 551.

In fact, one might argue that though the price given is for 50 magic arrows, the arrows still need to be crafted individually (as that is the rule for crafting magic weapons, and no exception is made), taking a day each per 1000 gp in the arrow's base price (for most lesser magic arrows, 1 day).

[upho]

Nitpicking:

Irongrip Gauntlets "You can wield a bigger weapon and reduce the penalty by 2, minimum 0. A half-giant holding a huge-sized lucerne hammer and manifesting minor metamorphosis with these gloves now deals 6d6 raw weapon damage per swing."
Note that the Irongrip Gauntlets simply reduces the penalty you take for wielding oversized weapons, they don't let you ignore the "handedness-by-size" rules in any way. A Medium sized human still cannot wield a two-handed weapon intended for a creature larger than Medium while wearing these gauntlets, and likewise, a Medium sized half-giant wearing them still cannot wield a two-handed weapon intended for a creature larger than Large. So regardless of these gauntlets, a lucerne hammer in a Large size half-giant's hands still wouldn't be larger than Huge, having a 4d6 damage die. The same enlarged half-giant wearing Irongrip Gauntlets could on the other hand (see what I did there?) wield for example a longsword intended for a Gargantuan creature without taking the normal -2 penalty, but would still need to use both hands in order to do so.

So for a large majority of zealots, these gauntlets are probably a waste of gold. However, a build with a fiendbound marauder dip will absolutely love these, because a fiend's grip is a light reach weapon. Meaning for example aforementioned enlarged half-giant could wield a fiend's grip intended for a Gargantuan creature as a one-handed weapon without penalties, giving him a threatening reach of no less than 30 ft. (10 ft. Large size natural reach + 20 ft. additional reach of Gargantuan sized reach weapon). (Similarly, an enlarged aasimar/tiefling/skinwalker of gamla heritage would net a threatening reach of 35 ft.)

[exelsisxax]

Nitpicking:

Irongrip Gauntlets "You can wield a bigger weapon and reduce the penalty by 2, minimum 0. A half-giant holding a huge-sized lucerne hammer and manifesting minor metamorphosis with these gloves now deals 6d6 raw weapon damage per swing."
Note that the Irongrip Gauntlets simply reduces the penalty you take for wielding oversized weapons, they don't let you ignore the "handedness-by-size" rules in any way. A Medium sized human still cannot wield a two-handed weapon intended for a creature larger than Medium while wearing these gauntlets, and likewise, a Medium sized half-giant wearing them still cannot wield a two-handed weapon intended for a creature larger than Large. So regardless of these gauntlets, a lucerne hammer in a Large size half-giant's hands still wouldn't be larger than Huge, having a 4d6 damage die. The same enlarged half-giant wearing Irongrip Gauntlets could on the other hand (see what I did there?) wield for example a longsword intended for a Gargantuan creature without taking the normal -2 penalty, but would still need to use both hands in order to do so.

So for a large majority of zealots, these gauntlets are probably a waste of gold. However, a build with a fiendbound marauder dip will absolutely love these, because a fiend's grip is a light reach weapon. Meaning for example aforementioned enlarged half-giant could wield a fiend's grip intended for a Gargantuan creature as a one-handed weapon without penalties, giving him a threatening reach of no less than 30 ft. (10 ft. Large size natural reach + 20 ft. additional reach of Gargantuan sized reach weapon). (Similarly, an enlarged aasimar/tiefling/skinwalker of gamla heritage would net a threatening reach of 35 ft.)

How would it benefit a fiendbound marauder at all, seeing as how fiend's grips are manifested at your size only, and deal damage based only on that size? You can't make a 1-handed fiend's grip. Unless you manifest it while gargantuan and you think you can keep it at that size and damage dice even after you downgrade to huge....?

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Iron Tortoise complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Scarlet Throne complete!
(Table of Contents) Moved the How to Keep Track of Everything section up so that it wouldn't be drowned under the huge Disciplines & Maneuvers section.
(Path of War & Expanded Feats) Added Powerful Throw
(Paizo Feats) Added Dirty Fighting
(Paizo Feats) Added Shield Brace
(Paizo Feats) Added Unhindering Shield
(Equipment) Added Greater Transformative and Training weapon enhancements
(Equipment) Added Tempest Shield and Maelstrom Shield
(Equipment) Removed Irongrip Gauntlets. They didn't do what I thought they did.
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Corrected alignment details of Black Seraph.

@upho, thanks for the corrections! But exelsisxax has a point, I don't think you can make a one-handed fiend's grip.

@Metool, I feel dirty.

[upho]

How would it benefit a fiendbound marauder at all, seeing as how fiend's grips are manifested at your size only, and deal damage based only on that size? You can't make a 1-handed fiend's grip. Unless you manifest it while gargantuan and you think you can keep it at that size and damage dice even after you downgrade to huge....?
@upho, thanks for the corrections! But exelsisxax has a point, I don't think you can make a one-handed fiend's grip.Short version of my interpretation:

Q: Does wearing a pair of Irongrip Gauntlets affect which size of spiked gauntlets I'm capable of wielding without penalties?
A: Yes.

Q: Does anything affecting the spiked gauntlets I'm wearing not affect my fiend's grips?
A: No (not unless explicitly saying so).

Longer version RAW (my emphasis):

A fiend’s grip is treated as a spiked gauntlet for the purposes Weapon Focus, being discipline weapon for a discipline, and similar feats and abilities. A fiendbound marauder is always proficient in her fiend’s grip.

A fiend’s grip is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. It is also considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, affecting incorporeal creatures, and similar effects.

When attacking with her fiend’s grip, the fiendbound marauder may apply any magical properties and enhancement bonus of the gauntlet or spiked gauntlet that fiend’s grip used as a focus to her attacks. She can also treat a fiend’s grip as being made of the special material of the gauntlet or spiked gauntlet used as a focus. For example, a fiendbound marauder wearing a +1 flaming gauntlet and a +2 adamantine defending gauntlet would grow a +1 flaming fiend’s grip and a +2 adamantine defending fiend’s grip.The first bold sentence is pretty darn all-encompassing IMO. And considering the fiend's grip even gains the special material properties of the gauntlet acting as a focus, I think it's pretty safe to say it also gains the size of said gauntlet.

Or do you think a half-giant's powerful build trait is effectively useless with fiend's grip?

That said, I can see there's a small room for another interpretation. Perhaps it's time to ask the author?

[exelsisxax]

None of that supports the idea that you can acquire larger fiend's grips. You also didn't quote the actual important part.


A fiend’s grip is a light weapon that deals 1d8 points of bludgeoning or slashing damage (for a Medium-sized wielder).

Fiend's grips are light weapons. Doesn't matter what gauntlets you have, because fiend's grips don't gain the size or damage of gauntlets. They're light weapons that deal damage based on the wielder's size. So yes, powerful build is useless for fiend's grip.

[upho]

None of that supports the idea that you can acquire larger fiend's grips. You also didn't quote the actual important part.But the part you emphasized is just as (ir)relevant as it would be if discussing any light weapon. The actually relevant part that may support your interpretation is limited to one single word in parenthesis (my emphasis):
A fiend’s grip is a light weapon that deals 1d8 points of bludgeoning or slashing damage (for a Medium-sized wielder).Change that single word to "weapon" or "fiend's grip" or "gauntlet used as focus" and whatever tiny support there was is gone. And when considering the parenthesis is most likely only there to clarify the damage die size (as normal), that the primary purpose of the sentence is likely to state the basic standard weapon properties of a fiend's grip, including no special rules applying to fiend's grips only (such as limiting the handedness more than the general weapon size rules do), and the fact that treating that single word in parenthesis as a slight error would make the mechanics explained by this sentence jam much better with the rest of the RAW, I didn't find this part to be of much help at all.

If you doubt me or don't understand what I'm trying to say here, let me illustrate by applying the very same sentence to the subject of a spiked gauntlet:

"A spiked gauntlet is a light weapon that deals 1d4 points of piercing damage (for a Medium-sized wielder)."

Now can you please point out to me exactly what in that sentence makes you believe a spiked gauntlet is always treated as a light weapon? And while you're at it, please also show me why this spiked gauntlet can never be wielded by a creature of a size different from that which the gauntlet was intended for, unlike other weapons?

However, regardless of your answers, I think the fact that the RAW lacks anything which conclusively and explicitly states exactly what dictates a fiend's grip size makes the mentioned one single word more interesting when trying to decipher the RAI. Which is why I included this sentence in my post asking about this issue in the Dreamscarred Press FAQ thread (which I hope and believe was phrased in a neutral manner).


Fiend's grips are light weapons. Doesn't matter what gauntlets you have, because fiend's grips don't gain the size or damage of gauntlets.Fiend's grips are light weapons just as much as for example spiked gauntlets, daggers, short swords or claws are light weapons. That is, they are light weapons and treated as such when wielded by a creature of the size the weapons where intended for. But if any "effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons" would make a fiend's grip being treated as something other than a light weapon by a particular wielder, then said fiend's grip certainly is treated as something other than a light weapon when said effects are applied.

The effects of a Medium sized creature wearing Irongrip Gauntlets or having powerful build enabling the wielding of a Large light weapon without penalties are examples of such "effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons". Likewise, the effects of an Amulet of Mighty Fists, a Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes and a (spiked) gauntlet all apply to a fiend's grip, and this may for example include all the special properties a monk of the silver fist may apply to gauntlets (increased damage, treated as buckler and adding enhancement to shield bonus etc).

This is an example of what I meant by "all-encompassing" in my previous post, which, to clarify, was specifically referring to the "effects that enhance or improve" part of the RAW also quoted above.

(As an aside, this wording is in all respects relevant to this discussion the same as that of Ascetic Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ascetic-style-combat-style) and that of the original Feral Combat Training. The author of the former (Alexander Augunas) has named it "the BIGGEST MISTAKE EVER" and the latter was seriously nerfed, in both cases specifically because of the all-encompassing nature of the wording "effects that augment". Which for example has been confirmed in an old FAQ entry to make the monk's unarmed strike damage progression apply to natural attacks with the original FCT, and now has those effects apply to weapons with Ascetic Style. This hopefully illustrates just how all-encompassing the wording is, and though the mechanical impact of the wording currently isn't as major in the case of the fiend's grip as in the mentioned US related cases AFAICT, the same principle is true: if anything makes things in category X, Y or Z better it also makes specific thing A better.)


They're light weapons that deal damage based on the wielder's size.So any properties outside of damage which are normally affected by size would still change as per the normal rules for changing a weapon's size? And ALL fiend's grips EVER are light weapons, regardless of the size of the wielder or that of his/her gauntlets used as foci? If so, then I fully agree with everything besides perhaps the damage die size, but that's frankly such a minor thing it's barely worth the time to discuss IMO.


So yes, powerful build is useless for fiend's grip.Why? You just said the fiend's grip damage was only affected by the wielder's size, which has nothing to do with any other properties affected by weapon size (such as the additional weight, hp, cost and added reach of a larger gauntlet/fiend's grip). And fiend's grips being light weapons always, regardless of their size, doesn't change the fact a certain creature may treat a certain fiend's grip as something other than a light weapon for some intents and purposes.

Besides provoking snark (which is perfectly fine by me :smalltongue: and hopefully you too) and applying some kind of special snowflake rule regarding size and handedness that isn't supported by the RAW, I think your interpretation has some pretty weird effects. While a Medium sized wielder using a Large mundane spiked gauntlet as a focus would still manifest a Medium fiend's grip, this suddenly wouldn't necessarily be true if the gauntlet's size happened to be the result of magic, since "the fiendbound marauder may apply any magical properties of the gauntlet that fiend’s grip used as a focus". For example, if the same Medium sized wielder used an initially Medium gauntlet made Large via a (permanent) resize item (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Resize%20Item) spell as a focus, the manifested fiend's grip would also be Large, because...? Magic?

Likewise, powerful build wouldn't apply but strong jaw would, because...? Magic?

And in the case of Large Irongrip Gauntlets worn by a Medium wielder, the RAW clearly states both the effects that enhance manufactured/natural weapons and the magic properties of the Irongrip Gauntlets are applied to/inherited by the fiend's grip(s), but according to your interpretation, the effects that were enhancing the gauntlets would disappear and the magic properties inherited would become useless in this particular case.

In short, I think your interpretation seems to have little support in the current RAW, and it's implementation appears to cause needlessly convoluted and complicated effects which deviate from the general rules and further increase the gap between magic and mundane, for no specific reasons or gains in terms of reflecting the flavor or improving any aspect of the mechanics (fun, playability, balance, whatever). But I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

....

Out of curiosity, if a fiendbound marauder uses say a pair of adamantine Giant Fist Gauntlets (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gauntlets-giant-fist) as a focus for her fiend's grips, does activating the gauntlets' magic to "expand her hands to twice normal size and harden to the consistency of hardwood", which applies effects to "hits with an unarmed strike or natural attack using her enlarged hands" affect her hits with her fiend's grips in any way according to you? If so, how and why? (This is a serious question I'm not absolutely certain how to answer myself, and I'm genuinely interested in hearing your take on this.)

[Powerdork]

@Metool, I feel dirty.

Yeah, this is how core Pathfinder makes me feel, too.

[exelsisxax]

Upho, a ton of that has no real relevance to fiend's grips. The RAW is clear: fiend's grips are light weapons appropriate for your size. They don't inherit size or damage from gauntlets in any way. They do inherit magical properties, enhancement bonus, and special materials from the gauntlet, and nothing else. Since the size of the gauntlet is none of those, the size of the gauntlet makes no difference whatsoever to the fiend's grip.

Assuming medium wielder:
Large gauntlets do nothing.
A large gauntlet of Impact causes the fiend's grip to deal damage as if it were large, because of impact.
A medium gauntlet with resize item does nothing, because resize item isn't a magical weapon property.
Enlarge person causes the fiend's grip to deal damage as a large fiend's grip, because it is large.
Strong jaw causes fiend's grips to deal damage as if it were two sizes larger, because fiend's grips are treated like nat weapons and strong jaw effects the entire creature.

The RAW is clear and nothing you've come up with so far actually appears to have any inconsistency.

[upho]

Upho, a ton of that has no real relevance to fiend's grips. The RAW is clear: fiend's grips are light weapons appropriate for your size.Ok, I'm gonna try taking it from the very beginning and as clearly as I can. Please follow these steps:

1. Forget all about the size of a wielded gauntlet affecting the size of a fiend's grip for now. That is a separate issue which has little bearing on why I find your interpretation problematic.
2. Show me the RAW which states fiend's grips are manifested as "weapons appropriate for your size". Again, the bold part is what I need help with; I can already see the RAW clearly states a fiend's grip is a light weapon.
3. Show me the RAW which states #2 is true regardless of other circumstances (like, say, whether the FM in question actually would prefer to manifest fiend's grips of another size).


Personally, I can't find anything in the fiend's grip RAW which deals with points #2 or #3. In fact, I can't even find anything in the fiend's grip RAW which regulates the size of a manifested fiend's grip in any way! :smallredface:

Once you've helped me out, we may hopefully continue on our little quest for enlightenment.

[exelsisxax]

Ok, I'm gonna try taking it from the very beginning and as clearly as I can. Please follow these steps:

1. Forget all about the size of a wielded gauntlet affecting the size of a fiend's grip for now. That is a separate issue which has little bearing on why I find your interpretation problematic.
2. Show me the RAW which states fiend's grips are manifested as "weapons appropriate for your size". Again, the bold part is what I need help with; I can already see the RAW clearly states a fiend's grip is a light weapon.
3. Show me the RAW which states #2 is true regardless of other circumstances (like, say, whether the FM in question actually would prefer to manifest fiend's grips of another size).


Personally, a can't find anything in the fiend's grip RAW which deals with points #2 or #3. In fact, I can't even find anything in the fiend's grip RAW which regulates the size of a manifested fiend's grip in any way! :smallredface:

Once you've helped me out, we may hopefully continue on our little quest for enlightenment.

I'll make this more precise then.

Fiend's grips don't have real sizes. Like a bite attack or a lightning bolt, it does not have a size. You can't manifest an oversized fiend's grip because there is no such thing. Like natural attacks, it deals damage based on your size. Like natural attacks and manufactured weapons, it can deal damage as if its size were larger, but like natural weapons, that effective size is purely for damage purposes and does not exist as a quality of the weapon or attack.

"RAW doesn't say you can't" isn't a good argument. RAW says what you can do with a fiend's grip, and what you suggest isn't in it.

[upho]

I'll make this more precise then.

Fiend's grips don't have real sizes. Like a bite attack or a lightning bolt, it does not have a size. You can't manifest an oversized fiend's grip because there is no such thing. Like natural attacks, it deals damage based on your size. Like natural attacks and manufactured weapons, it can deal damage as if its size were larger, but like natural weapons, that effective size is purely for damage purposes and does not exist as a quality of the weapon or attack.Seems absolutely clear to me. And I would've agreed 100% with you if not for the fact that literally nothing you've written here is actually supported by the RAW. In detail:

1. "Fiend's grips don't have real sizes."
Where is the RAW to support this notion? Seems to me the RAW is silent on this subject. (Although the rules undoubtedly include a number of more or less fuzzy "hints" regarding the RAI.)


2. "Like a bite attack or a lightning bolt, it does not have a size."
See #1 above. And judging from what the RAW does say, it appears to me a fiend's grip is actually more similar to a manufactured weapon than to a natural attack. For example, they have weapon material properties (which natural attacks don't have), they aren't a part of your body (which natural attacks are), they are used with TWF rules (which natural weapons aren't), they gain iteratives (which natural weapons don't), and the RAW spell out all properties - such as reach, crit range and crit multiplier - just like other rules for manufactured weapons normally do (which rules for natural attacks normally don't as they typically only include any exceptions to the general rules for natural attacks).

More specifically, it might be worth noting one of the properties listed is the light weapon "effort/handedness" designation you've frequently mentioned, another is the mentioned 20 crit range, and yet another is the x2 crit multiplier. All these are properties shared by all standard natural attacks, and are therefore details for which there is no reason to repeat in the RAW (and most likely wouldn't have been included) if a fiend's grip actually was a natural attack. So why exactly are you so certain a fiend's grip has "no size" and is more similar to a lightning bolt or a bite attack, when almost nothing seems to agree with that claim and a lot disagrees with it.

Anyway, while my views on this may be accurate extrapolations of what actually is found in the RAW, the sad fact remains that there are other possibilities and that the RAW offer no truly conclusive information on the matter.


3. "You can't manifest an oversized fiend's grip because there is no such thing."
Again, I find nothing in the RAW which supports your claim, and again nothing which conclusively excludes it (at best potentially accurate extrapolations of what is found in the RAW). I'm starting to wonder whether you have a different and considerably more detailed version of the MF than what can be found in my copy of PoW:E or on d20pfsrd.com... Please help me out and show me the RAW I obviously keep missing!


4. "Like natural attacks, it deals damage based on your size."
Yep, you guessed it, I would indeed like to see the RAW which gave you this idea. The only thing which could possibly suggest this is true in the MF rules I can find is the aforementioned "wielder" in parenthesis, and again the very same rules unfortunately include plenty of suggestions to the contrary.


5. "Like natural attacks and manufactured weapons, it can deal damage as if its size were larger, but like natural weapons, that effective size is purely for damage purposes and does not exist as a quality of the weapon or attack."
I'm not gonna repeat myself again. But if what you're saying here is true, then why don't the RAW simply say something like "a fiend's grip functions as a natural attack but with the exceptions detailed here"? Also, if you're correct in everything you've said, then why are the RAW full of seemingly contradictory or needlessly complicated details and aren't adhering to the standards PoW:E and other DSP publications otherwise follow? Don't you honestly find it even the slightest suspicious that there are so many little things which simply don't read the way they ought to if you were correct?

And this is of course on top of what really should make for an ear-piercing alarm telling you something is very wrong, namely that the RAW simply don't say anything to suggest your claims are true.

Hence, I'm afraid your statements will remain nothing but your opinions/wishes/fantasies/guesses until you start posting actual RAW quotes supporting your claims.



"RAW doesn't say you can't" isn't a good argument. RAW says what you can do with a fiend's grip, and what you suggest isn't in it.Funny how I'd say you are the one claiming all sorts of things which the RAW simply don't... :smallwink:


But perhaps we can agree the RAW don't say anything conclusively on the matter of possible fiend's grip sizes?

[soulsabre345]

So, read through the guide, and It's quite helpful indeed. And showed a few things that I didn't quite realize I could do, which is always good XD.

So, my question, is I'm playing a bit of an odd zealot, so would you have any suggestions for interesting ways to improve a natural attacking zealot? Currently playing a 3pp dragon race, (Taninim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/rite-publishing/dragon-taninim)) that gets scaling size increases every 5 levels or so, including a bite / gore natural attack with 5' more reach. (For anyone with the book, using the Draconic hero racial archtype, modified to work on a zealot.)

Also, I'm also in the camp of what exactly is gamla-blooded? Yes, I understand it for assimars, which just persists the size of the base race, but how does that transfer to the galma?

[Castilonium]

So, read through the guide, and It's quite helpful indeed. And showed a few things that I didn't quite realize I could do, which is always good XD.

So, my question, is I'm playing a bit of an odd zealot, so would you have any suggestions for interesting ways to improve a natural attacking zealot? Currently playing a 3pp dragon race, (Taninim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/rite-publishing/dragon-taninim)) that gets scaling size increases every 5 levels or so, including a bite / gore natural attack with 5' more reach. (For anyone with the book, using the Draconic hero racial archtype, modified to work on a zealot.)

Also, I'm also in the camp of what exactly is gamla-blooded? Yes, I understand it for assimars, which just persists the size of the base race, but how does that transfer to the galma?

I'm glad you find the guide helpful :smallsmile:

Natural attack builds are best with full attacks, which I discourage a lot in my guide, because other classes are better suited for it, and refreshing your maneuvers is a move action with a powerful bonus. However, once I finish writing the ratings for Primal Fury, I'll have a foundation to base natural attack analysis on, since Primal Fury has some strikes that let you make full attacks as a standard action. You can focus on using those, add on a boost, refresh them every round, and do a good job of obliterating everything you meet. I'll start making sample builds at the end of the guide once I'm done with all of the disciplines.

Gamla-blooded or gamla-heritage means that you're playing an aasimar, tiefling, or skinwalker who has one gamla parent and one angel/fiend/lycanthrope parent. Or two gamla parents and celestial/fiendish/lycanthropic ancestry somewhere in the family tree. You are an aasimar/tiefling/skinwalker in every way with all of the associated racial features and stats and whatnot. The only difference is that you look like a gamla and are large instead of medium. I'll make that part in the race section of my guide more clear.

[soulsabre345]

Well, the full attack route isn't as important to me because I'm mostly using a single attack atm for most things, the bite that has extended reach. So, i'm more looking for ways to achieve boosting a single natural attack than the group as a whole. The DM has already okayed that you can get items that boost a single natural attack the same way you can boost a manufactured weapon. Which, admitted, isn't optimal, but it's also a way for me to get 1.5x str on a reach weapon and use a shield XD.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Primal Fury complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Steel Serpent complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Thrashing Dragon complete!

All 20 disciplines ARE COMPLETE! Next on the chopping block is the sample builds, and I plan to take a look at Unquiet Grave from Lords of the Night, and Chimera Soul from Lords of the Wild.

@soulsabre345, Take a peek at Scarlet Throne. It has very good boosts for single attacks like Regal Blade and Noble Blade. It also has some ludicrously high damage strikes like Rising Zenith Strike and Ruby Zenith Strike. Use power attack to make them more crazy.

[upho]

All 20 disciplines ARE COMPLETE!Hurray!


Next on the chopping block is the sample builds, and I plan to take a look at Unquiet Grave from Lords of the Night, and Chimera Soul from Lords of the Wild.And maybe PrCs?

Here's a potential contribution to the sample builds from me: "Nelly Nephilim" (she's an aasimar who "falls"), an awakened blade build using several of the top options/combos mentioned in your guide, and a few additional ones stolen from a warder BBEG NPC I made for my current home game. I believe Nelly has extremely effective defender/support mechanics in especially the latter half of her career, but I suspect many of them are unfortunately also everything but simple to decipher from build summaries and level progression outlines. So if you're interested in putting her in your guide, I should probably write a section explaining how everything comes together and all the various shenanigans she's capable of pulling off in combat.

(And if anyone wonders about the latest level combos/options, yes, I deliberately delayed those very powerful ones (like metamorphosis, Soulless Gaze and Dirty Trick Master) until the very highest levels. My idea was this might turn them into sort of capstones (replacing those Nelly misses by being everything but single-classed), instead of simply making Nelly OP during lower levels.)

The following details Nelly while she is raging, in the stances of Black Seraph Style and Stance of the Inner Eye, and affected by Time Skitter and enlarge person (cast from her wand by party member).

Angel-Blooded Aasimar Monk (Monk of the Silver Fist) 1/Wilder 1/Warder (Fiendbound Marauder Ordained Defender) 1/Warlord (Privateer) 1/Zealot 4/Awakened Blade 2
NG Huge female humanoid outsider (human, native, psionic)

Initiative +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft., Perception +5
Aura as 1st level Neutral Good cleric


DEFENSE
AC 27, touch 11, flat-footed 23; +3 profane vs scared*; +1 dodge vs traps (11 armor, 1 natural, 4 shield, 1 deflection, 3 insight, 1 dodge, -2 size, -2 rage)
HP 107 (8+1d12+7d10+1d8 hit dice, 40 Con, 6 Psionic Body, 4 favored class)
Fort +20, Ref +10, Will +20; +3 profane vs scared*; +1 dodge to Reflex vs traps
Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
Defensive Abilities Black Seraph Style, living bastion, Lurker in Darkness, situational awareness
*scared = shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy


OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee nephilim's grip +23/+23/+18 and solstice's grip +23 (3d6+17 nonlethal, +1d6 precision, plus demoralize and grab)
or unarmed strikes +21/+21/+21/+16 (1d8+16 nonlethal, +1d6 precision, plus demoralize)
Space 15 ft., Reach 20 ft., 35 ft. with fiend's grips (30 ft., 45 ft. while using defensive focus)
Special Attacks Enforcer (Intimidate +22), grab (CMB +34)

Special Abilities
Attacks of Opportunity 3/round, attack +25 (hit effects as nephilim's grip), or combat maneuver
Collective Nelly and 5 allies, 140' range, members can communicate telepathically
Dastardly Gambit swift, +6 luck to dirty trick attempt; on success allies in 30' recover 1 and gain +4 morale to damage vs target for 1 round
Dazzling Gambit when successfully performing a Dastardly Gambit, Nelly may make a demoralize attempt vs all enemies within 30' as a free action
Echoes of Steel when initiating maneuver of max 4th level: Nelly can spend 1 PP/maneuver level to grant ally in collective maneuver for 1 min.
Martyrdom 1/round when ally in collective takes damage: Nelly may transfer up to 20 damage and reduce by -3/PP spent, up to -12 (not below 1)
Zeal on strike hit or using Aid Another to recover maneuvers, allies in collective gain +1 morale to attack for 1 round

Wilder Surge and Powers 34 PP/day, ML 4 (5 using wild surge)
Raging Surge barbarian rage 13 rounds/day, wild surge +1 (psychic enervation 15%, -3 hp)
1st defensive precognition, offensive precognition

Awakened Blade and Zealot Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 10, Charisma
Stances Iron Pikeman’s AttitudePT3, Riven Hourglass StanceRH3, Stance of the Inner Eyeactive
Boosts Time SkitterRH3 active, 3 rounds remaining
Counters Relativity BurstRH5, Temporal Body AdjustmentRH4
Strikes zeal on hit: Thrashing Dragon TwistTD5
Recovery move: recovers 4 maneuvers with Aid Another for +4 to attack, or +5 to AC or skill check, zeal activated
Known Grasp of the Goddess, Piercing Strike, Reactive Reversion, Thunderous Fall

Monk Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 5, Wisdom
Stances Lesson II: ControlFE1
Boosts Minute HandRH1
Counters Iron ShellIT1
Strikes zeal on hit: One-Two PunchFE1
Recovery full-round: recovers 5 maneuvers, moves up to speed, grants adjacent ally +5 insight to AC and saves for 1 round

Warder Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 5, Wisdom
Stances Black Seraph's GlareBS1
Counters ClockwatcherRH1, Spilled SaltCR1
Strikes zeal on hit: Flurry StrikeBB1
Recovery full-round: recovers 5 maneuvers, defensive focus for +15' reach, CMD 72 vs Acrobatics checks to avoid AoO
Known Guard’s Oath, Terrifying Blow

Warlord Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 5, Charisma
Stances Inner Sphere StanceTD1
Boosts Encouraging RoarGL1, Leaping DragonTD1
Strikes zeal on hit: Hunting PartyGL1, Swift ClawsTD1
Recovery full-round: recovers 6 maneuvers, demoralize vs all enemies in 30'
Known Tactical Strike, Whirlwind Sweep

STATISTICS
Str 30, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 18 (20-point buy)
Bab +9; CMB +26 (using fiend's grip +30, dirty trick and grapple +34); CMD 35 (dirty trick 37)

Feats Additional Traits (Blade of Mercy, Psionic Knack), Black Seraph Style, Combat ReflexesB, Deep FocusB, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms)B, Greater Dirty TrickB, Improved Dirty TrickB, Improved Shield BashB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Intimidating Prowess, Lurker in DarknessB, Prodigious Two-Weapon FightingB, Psionic BodyB, Psionic Meditation, Seize the OpportunityB, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (spiked gauntlet)B

Skills Acrobatics +8, Autohypnosis +9, Intimidate +22, Knowledge (martial, psionics) +4

Alternate Racial Traits Gamla Heritage (Large size), Scion of Humanity, Variant Ability (+2 Wisdom)
Traits Adopted (Helpful), Blade of Mercy, Practiced Initiator (zealot), Psionic Knack (wilder)
Martial Tradition Lords of the Wheel (Riven Hourglass)

Gear nephilim's grip (+1 training (Enforcer) spiked gauntlet), solstice's grip (+1 training (Seize the Opportunity) spiked gauntlet), furious amulet of mighty fists, +2 plate of +1 natural armor and protection1, pauldrons of resistance +21, belt (+4 Str, +2 Con)1, mask (+2 Cha)1, bracelet of charms2, 5 charms of anger2, cracked dusty rose prism, wand of enlarge person, 1,250 gp (remainder of 62,000 gp standard WBL)
1 Uses variant item rules from Steelforge (no stacking costs of "big six" or skill competence bonuses to (any) slotted item).
2 Item from Steelforge.


ABILITY SCORES 20-point buy
Str 30 16 base, 2 race, 2 level, 4 enhancement belt, 2 size enlarge person, 4 rage
Dex 10 12 base, -2 size enlarge person
Con 18 14 base, 4 rage
Int 7 7 base
Wis 14 12 base, 2 race
Cha 18 14 base, 2 race, 2 enhancement mask


DEFENSE VALUES
AC 27, touch 11, flat-footed 25 (10 + 11 armor (+2 plate), 1 natural enhancement (armor), 1 shield (shielding fist), 3 shield enhancement (fiend's grips enhancement, shielding fist), 1 deflection (+1 armor of protection), 3 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 dodge haste (Time Skitter), -2 size (Large race, enlarge person), -2 rage)
Fort +20 (4 Con, 1 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 warder, 2 warlord, 4 zealot, 2 resistance (pauldrons), 3 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye))
Ref +10 (1 awakened blade, 2 monk, 1 zealot, 2 resistance (pauldrons), 3 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 dodge haste (Time Skitter))
Will +20 (2 Wis, 1 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 warder, 2 wilder, 4 zealot, 2 resistance (pauldrons), 3 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 2 morale (rage))

CMD
Base CMD 35 (10 + 9 bab, 10 Str, 1 Dex, 1 deflection (+1 armor of protection), 3 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 dodge haste (Time Skitter), 2 size (Large race, enlarge person), -2 rage)
Dirty Trick 37 (35 base CMD, 2 Improved Dirty Trick)


OFFENSE VALUES
Reach 20 ft. / 35 ft. with fiend's grips (15 Huge size (Large race, enlarge person), 5 living bastion / 15 Huge reach weapon)

Attack and Damage
Fiend's Grips Attack Bonus +25 (9 bab, 10 Str, 1 Weapon Focus, 3 enhancement (+1 furious weapon), 3 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 haste (Time Skitter), -2 size (Large race, enlarge person))
Unarmed Strike Attack Bonus +23 (25 as fiend's grips above except: -1 no Weapon Focus, -1 enhancement (only furious weapon))
Fiend's Grips Damage Bonus +17; +1d6 precision (10 Str, 3 enhancement, 3 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 Blade of Mercy; 1d6 Stance of the Inner Eye)
Unarmed Strike Damage Bonus 16; +1d6 precision (as fiend's grips above except 2 enhancement)
Fiend's Grip Damage Die 3d6 (1d8 Medium size -> 2d6 Large size (race size) -> 3d6 Huge size (enlarge person))

CMB
Base CMB +26 (9 bab, 10 Str, 3 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 haste (Time Skitter), 2 size (Large race, enlarge person))
Using Fiend's Grips +30 (26 base CMB, 1 Weapon Focus, 3 enhancement (+1 furious weapon))
Dirty Trick +34 (30 as fiend's grips, 4 Improved and Greater Dirty Trick)
Grapple +34 (30 as fiend's grips, 4 grab)


MISCELLANEOUS VALUES
Initiative +2 (1 insight (situational awareness), 1 competence (cracked dusty rose prism))

Manifesting and Rage
Wilder ML 4 2 powers known of max 1st level (1 wilder, 1 awakened blade, 2 trait)
Power Points 34/day (17 wilder/awakened blade (11 level, 6 Cha), 13 zealot (5 level, 8 Cha), 4 Sleeping Goddess (3 highest level, 1 other known))
Rage 13 rounds/day for +4 morale to Str and Con (3 + 1 wilder, 4 Cha, 5 charms of anger; +4 Str/+4 Con rage)

Skills
Total Skill Ranks 20 (10 levels x (4 class, -2 Int))
Acrobatics +8 (5 ranks, 3 class skill)
Autohypnosis +9 (4 ranks, 3 class skill, 2 Wis)
Intimidate +22 (5 ranks, 3 class skill, 4 Cha, 10 Str (Intimidating Prowess))
Knowledge (martial, psionics) +4 (3 ranks, 3 class skill, -2 Int)

Magic Weapon Costs and Abilities
Nephilim's Grip 8,000 gp (+1 enhancement, training (Enforcer) (+1 cost))
Solstice's Grip 8,000 gp (+1 enhancement, training (Seize the Opportunity) (+1 cost))
Amulet of Mighty Fists 4,000 gp (furious (+1 cost))




The following details Nelly while she is raging, in the stances of Black Seraph Style and Lesson VI: Supremacy with Stance of Thunderbrand, and affected by banshee’s hearing, heartbinding, metamorphosis, Time Skitter and applicable spells from her wands (listed in the Gear section below).

Angel-Blooded Aasimar Monk (Monk of the Silver Fist) 1/Wilder 1/Warder (Fiendbound Marauder Ordained Defender) 1/Warlord (Privateer) 1/Zealot 6/Awakened Blade 10
N Gargantuan female humanoid outsider (human, native, psionic)

Initiative +16; Senses blindsight 60 ft. (not vs creatures w/o heartbeat), darkvision 60 ft., Perception +33
Aura Black Seraph Annihilation 30 ft. (enemies lose immunity to fear, those immune to mind-affecting gain +5 vs fear), and as 1st level Neutral cleric


DEFENSE
AC 52, touch 22, flat-footed 39; +5 profane vs scared*; +5 dodge vs traps (14 armor, 8 natural, 8 shield, 2 Dex, 5 deflection, 6 insight, 5 dodge, -4 size, -2 rage)
HP 290; staggered at -1 to -31 hp (8+1d12+17d10+1d8 hit dice, 160 Con, 12 Psionic Body, 6 favored class; 6 zealot levels, 26 Con)
Fort +34, Ref +22, Will +35; +5 profane vs scared*; +5 dodge to Reflex vs traps
Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, fire 15
Defensive Abilities Black Seraph Style, defiance, Diehard, heartbinding, living bastion, Lurker in Darkness, situational awareness, uncanny dodge & improved uncanny dodge
Weakness damned (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats) (unaffected by breath of life and raise dead, non-evil caster must make DC 30 caster level check to bring Nelly back from death)
*scared = shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy


OFFENSE
Speed 70 ft., fly 90 ft.
Melee nephilim's grip +45/+45/+40/+35/+30 and solstice's grip +45 (8d6+30 nonlethal, +2d6 precision, plus bull rush, cruel, demoralize, lock, grab and constrict)
Space 20 ft., Reach 35 ft., 55 ft. with fiend's grips (50 ft., 70 ft. while using defensive focus)
Special Attacks bull rush (CMB +64 best of 2 rolls), constrict (2d6+30 nonlethal, +2d6 precision plus demoralize), cruel weapon 4/round (scared* sickened on hit, 5 THP if target knocked unconscious or killed), Enforcer (Intimidate +59), grab (CMB +62), lock (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWw7bVMARxrXfRuOW20NlRqXEnS_XGLPT6LHTbz2qME/edit#heading=h.i8k533te3o3q) on hit 1/round and on any AoO hit (Reflex DC 38, adjacent enemy only)
*scared = shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy

Special Abilities
Attacks of Opportunity 6/round, triggered by any movement from threatened space, +47 attack (hit effects as nephilim's grip), or combat maneuver
Clairsentient Counter immediate when Nelly risks being affected by attack/spell/power/ability: may expend a maneuver and psionic focus to gain a standard or move action
Collective Nelly and 8 allies, 160' range, members can communicate telepathically, Nelly can use personal range power on member by expending psionic focus and +4 PP
Dastardly Gambit swift, +6 luck to dirty trick attempt; on success Nelly regains psionic focus, allies in 30' recover 1 maneuver and gain +6 morale to damage vs target for 1 round
Dazzling Gambit free when successfully performing a Dastardly Gambit, Nelly may make a demoralize attempt vs. all enemies within 30'
Demoralization enemies in 30' of Nelly lose immunity to fear, foe she demoralizes more than once suffers more severe fear condition instead of +1 round duration
Echoes of Steel when Nelly initiates maneuver of max 8th level, she can spend 1 PP/maneuver level to allow ally in collective initiate maneuver before she recovers it
Gauntlet Slam when Nelly hits with a fiend's grip she can make a bull rush as a free action, and she replaces unarmed strikes granted by maneuvers with fiend's grip attacks
Heartbinding (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_DKnAARY4I9Q16jCacwm2X-KVmnKObs6J_FBIgZrOc8/mobilebasic) ally in collective gains +1 deflect to AC, +1 resist on saves, Nelly and ally both gain morale bonuses granted to either, and either may save for both vs emotion
Lock free when Nelly hits adjacent enemy with melee 1/round or whenever she hits adjacent with AoO, Reflex DC 38; can drag locked enemies w/o penalties
Martyrdom 1/round when ally in collective takes damage: Nelly may transfer up to 30 damage and reduce it by -3/PP spent, up to -18 (not below 1)
Precognitive Defenses Nelly may expend psionic focus as free action at any time to initiate readied counter (w/o using immediate action)
Zeal when Nelly hits with a strike or uses Aid Another to recover maneuvers, allies in collective gain +2 morale to attack for 2 rounds

Wilder Surge and Powers 173 PP/day (163 remaining), ML 11 (12 using wild surge)
Raging Surge barbarian rage 22 rounds/day (20 remaining), wild surge +1 (psychic enervation 15%, -11 hp)
4th fold space
3rd banshee’s hearing augment 4 active, 12 h, metamorphosis augment 2 active, 11 min. (+2 size, +3 NA, +10' base land speed, Improved Trip)
2nd heartbinding active, 12 h
1st defensive precognition, offensive precognition

Awakened Blade and Zealot Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 20, Charisma
Stances God of the Hourglass StanceRH8, Iron Pikeman’s AttitudePT3, Lesson VI: SupremacyFE8 active, Riven Hourglass StanceRH3, Stance of the Inner Eye active , Stance of the ThunderbrandPT5 active
Boosts Lord of the PridelandsGL9, Overpowering OptimismSG6, Time SkitterRH3 active, 5 rounds remaining
Counters Break the HourglassRH9, Oath of EternityEG9, Temporal Body AdjustmentRH4
Strikes zeal on hit: Hammer of the ImmortalEG8, Thrashing Dragon TwistTD5
Recovery move: recovers 6 maneuvers and regains psionic focus; Aid Another for +11 to attack or AC, or +6 to skill check, zeal activated
Known Beat the Clock, Grasp of the Goddess, Grim Guard’s Laughter, Orichalcum Swipe, Sands of Time Hurricane

Monk Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 10, Wisdom
Stances Lesson II: ControlFE1
Boosts Minute HandRH1
Counters Iron ShellIT1
Strikes zeal on hit: One-Two PunchFE1
Recovery full-round: recovers 5 maneuvers and regains psionic focus, moves up to speed, grants adjacent ally +5 insight to AC and saves for one round

Warder Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 10, Wisdom
Stances Black Seraph's GlareBS1
Counters Guard’s OathEG1, Spilled SaltCR1
Strikes zeal on hit: Flurry StrikeBB1
Recovery full-round: recovers 5 maneuvers and regains psionic focus, defensive focus for +15 ft. reach, CMD 72 vs Acrobatics to avoid AoO
Known Clockwatcher, Terrifying Blow

Warlord Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 10, Charisma
Stances Inner Sphere StanceTD1
Boosts Encouraging RoarGL1, Leaping DragonTD1
Strikes zeal on hit: Swift ClawsTD1, Whirlwind SweepFE1
Recovery full-round: recovers 6 maneuvers and regains psionic focus, demoralize vs enemies in 30 ft.
Known Hunting Party, Tactical Strike

STATISTICS
Str 42, Dex 14, Con 26, Int 13, Wis 20, Cha 22 (20-point buy); Bab +19
CMB +47 (bull rush +64 best of 2 rolls, dirty trick +75, disarm +73, drag +62, grapple +62, reposition +90, steal +49, trip +92)
CMD 65 (bull rush 74, dirty trick 81, disarm 90, drag 72, grapple 67, reposition 100, steal 67, trip 102)



PP Reserve
Enhancement
Grips Atk/Dmg/Shld
B. Rush B/D
D. Trick B/D
Disarm B/D
Drag B/D
Grapple B/D
Repos. B/D
Trip B/D


130-173
+7
+47/+30/+8
+64/74
+73/81
+73/90
+62/72
+62/67
+90/100
+92/102


80-129
+6
+46/+29/+7
+62/73
+70/79
+70/87
+60/71
+61/67
+84/95
+86/97


30-79
+5
+45/+28/+6
+60/72
+67/77
+67/84
+58/70
+60/67
+78/90
+80/92


5-29
+4
+44/+27/+5
+58/71
+64/75
+64/81
+56/69
+59/67
+72/85
+74/87


4-0
+3
+43/+26/+4
+56/70
+61/73
+61/78
+54/68
+58/67
+66/80
+68/82


Feats Additional Traits (Blade of Mercy, Psionic Knack), Black Seraph AnnihilationB, Black Seraph Style, Black Seraph's Malevolence, Buckler Bash, Combat ReflexesB, Deep FocusB, DiehardB, Dirty Trick MasterB, EnforcerB, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms)B, Expanded Knowledge (metamorphosis), Fiendskin (fire), Greater Dirty TrickB, Improved Dirty TrickB, Improved InitiativeB, Improved MetamorphosisB, Improved Shield BashB, Improved TripB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Intimidating Prowess, Lurker in DarknessB, Psionic BodyB, Psionic Meditation, Seize the OpportunityB, Shared PowerB, Shield SlamB, Soulless Gaze, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (spiked gauntlet)B

Skills Acrobatics +10, Autohypnosis +17, Bluff +12, Climb +24, Diplomacy +28, Fly +7 (+14 using wand/+15 using armor), Intimidate +59, Knowledge (martial, psionics) +7, Perception +33, Sense Motive +35, Stealth +4 (+7 while Large), Use Magic Device +19

Alternate Racial Traits Gamla Heritage (Large size), Scion of Humanity, Variant Ability (+2 Wisdom)
Traits Adopted (Helpful), Blade of Mercy, Practiced Initiator (zealot), Psionic Knack (wilder)
Martial Tradition Lords of the Wheel (Riven Hourglass)

Gear nephilim's grip (+1 angered1 benevolent training (Enforcer) deep crystal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-special-materials) spiked gauntlet), solstice's grip (+1 training (Black Seraph Annihilation, Seize the Opportunity, Shield Slam) deep crystal spiked gauntlet), dueling (PSFG) leveraging furious amulet of dueling psychic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-weapons#TOC-Psychic) mighty fists, +1 cruel training (Improved Initiative) body wrap of mighty strikes, +5 benevolent mithral celestial plate of natural armor and protection2, pauldrons of the splendid resisting bull (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/pauldrons-of-the-bull) +5 (+5 to Diplomacy)2, twisting vines (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gauntlets-of-twisting-vines) gauntlets of the skilled bull rush (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gauntlets-of-the-skilled-maneuver) and manipulation (+5 to UMD)2, anaconda’s coils belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-anaconda-s-coils) of physical perfection +62, menacing observant mask of mental superiority +6 (+10 & max ranks in Sense Motive, Intimidate, Perception)2, feathered boots of the battle herald (+5 & +2 circumstance to Fly)2, bracelet and necklace of charms3 with 12 charms of anger3 and a power charm of intensity3, cognizance crystal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/cognizance-crystals) (7 pp) x2, manual of gainful exercise +3 (used), cracked dusty rose prism, cracked pale green prism x2, mwk device instruction manual (+2 circumstance to UMD), wands of contingent action (CL 5), fly (CL 6), long arm (CL 5) and strong jaw (CL 7), 11,650 gp (remainder of 880,000 gp standard WBL)
1 Item from Bloodforge.
2 Uses variant item rules from Steelforge (no stacking costs of "big six" or skill competence bonuses to (any) slotted item). All skill bonuses are competence bonuses unless otherwise noted.
3 Item from Steelforge.


ABILITY SCORES 20-point buy
Str 42 16 base, 2 race, 5 level, 3 inherent manual, 6 enhancement belt, 4 rage, 2 angered weapon, 4 size metamorphosis
Dex 14 12 base, 6 enhancement belt, -4 size metamorphosis
Con 26 14 base, 6 enhancement belt, 4 rage, 2 angered weapon
Int 13 7 base, 6 enhancement mask
Wis 20 12 base, 2 race, 6 enhancement mask
Cha 22 14 base, 2 race, 6 enhancement mask


DEFENSE VALUES
AC min 48, max 52, touch 22, flat-footed min 35, max 39 (10 + 14 armor (+5 plate), 3 natural (metamorphosis), 5 natural enhancement (+5 armor), 1 shield (shielding fist), 3-7 shield enhancement (fiend's grips enhancement, shielding fist), 2 Dex, 5 deflection (+5 armor of protection), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 4 dodge (Stance of the Thunderbrand), 1 dodge haste (Time Skitter), -4 size (Large race, metamorphosis), -2 rage)
Fort +34 (8 Con, 3 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 warder, 2 warlord, 5 zealot, 5 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye))
Ref +22 (2 Dex, 3 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 zealot, 5 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 dodge haste (Time Skitter))
Will +35 (5 Wis, 5 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 warder, 2 wilder, 5 zealot, 5 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 2 morale (rage))

CMD
Base CMD 65 (10 + 19 bab, 16 Str, 2 Dex, 5 deflection (+5 armor of protection), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 4 dodge (Stance of the Thunderbrand), 1 dodge haste (Time Skitter), 4 size, -2 rage)
Bull Rush min 70, max 74 (65 base CMD, 3-7 enhancement (+1 furious psychic leveraging weapon), 2 gauntlets)
Dirty Trick min 73, max 81 (65 base CMD, 6-14 luck (+1 furious psychic dueling (PSFG) weapon), 2 Improved Dirty Trick)
Disarm min 78, max 90 (65 base CMD, 3-7 enhancement, 6-14 luck (+1 furious psychic dueling (PSFG) weapon), 2 dueling weapon, 2 circumstance (gauntlets))
Drag min 68, max 72 (65 base CMD, 3-7 enhancement (+1 furious psychic leveraging weapon))
Grapple 67 (65 base CMD, 2 circumstance (gauntlets))
Reposition min 80, max 100 (65 base CMD, 3-7 enhancement (+1 furious psychic leveraging weapon), 12-28 luck (+6-14 dueling (PSFG) weapon))
Steal 67 (65 base CMD, 2 circumstance (gauntlets))
Trip min 82, max 102 (80-100 as reposition, 2 Improved Trip)


OFFENSE VALUES
Reach 35 ft. / 55 ft. with fiend's grip (20 Gargantuan size, 5 living bastion, 5 Stance of the Thunderbrand, 5 long arm / 20 Gargantuan reach weapon)

Fiend's Grips Attack and Damage
Attack Bonus min +43, max +47 (19 bab, 16 Str, 1 Weapon Focus, 3-7 enhancement (+1 furious psychic weapon), 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 haste (Time Skitter), -4 size)
Damage Bonus min +26, max +30; +2d6 precision (16 Str, 3-7 enhancement, 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 Blade of Mercy; 2d6 Stance of the Inner Eye)
Damage Die 8d6 (1d8 Medium size -> 2d6 Large size (race size) -> 4d6 Gargantuan size (metamorphosis) -> 8d6 strong jaw)


CMB
Base CMB +47 (19 bab, 16 Str, 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 haste (Time Skitter), 4 size)
Bull Rush min +56, max +64; best of 2 rolls (47 base CMB, 1 Weapon Focus, 6-14 enhancement (+1 furious psychic leveraging weapon), 2 gauntlets; pauldrons)
Dirty Trick min +61, max +73 (47 base CMB, 1 Weapon Focus, 3-7 enhancement, 6-14 luck (+1 furious psychic dueling (PSFG) weapon), 4 Improved and Greater Dirty Trick)
Disarm min +61, max +73 (47 base CMB, 1 Weapon Focus, 3-7 enhancement, 6-14 luck (+1 furious psychic dueling (PSFG) weapon), 2 dueling weapon, 2 circumstance (gauntlets))
Drag min +54, max +62 (47 base CMB, 1 Weapon Focus, 6-14 enhancement (+3-7 leveraging weapon))
Grapple min +58, max +62 (47 base CMB, 1 Weapon Focus, 3-7 enhancement, 4 grab, 1 competence (2 belt), 2 circumstance (gauntlets))
Reposition min +66, max +90 (47 base CMB, 1 Weapon Focus, 6-14 enhancement (+1 furious psychic leveraging weapon), 12-28 luck (+6-14 dueling (PSFG) weapon))
Steal +49 (47 base CMB, 2 circumstance (gauntlets))
Trip min +68, max +92 (66-90 as reposition, 2 Improved Trip)


MISCELLANEOUS VALUES
Initiative +16 (2 Dex, 5 insight (situational awareness), 4 Improved Initiative, 4 enhancement (dueling weapon), 1 competence (cracked dusty rose prism))

Manifesting and Rage
Wilder ML 11 metamorphosis and 5 powers known of max 4th level (Expanded Knowledge, 1 wilder, 8 awakened blade, 2 trait)
Power Points 173/day (139 wilder/awakened blade (106 level, 33 Cha), 27 zealot (9 level, 18 Cha), 7 Sleeping Goddess (6 highest level, 1 other known))
Rage 22 rounds/day for +6 morale to Str and Con (3 + 1 wilder, 6 Cha, 12 charms of anger; +4 Str/+4 Con rage, +2/+2 angered weapon)

Skills
Total Skill Ranks 40 plus 20 ranks in Intimidate, Perception and Sense Motive (20 levels x (4 class, -2 Int), +6 Int mask)
Acrobatics +10 (5 ranks, 3 class skill, 2 Dex)
Autohypnosis +12 (4 ranks, 3 class skill, 5 Wis)
Bluff +17 (1 rank, 3 class skill, 6 Cha, 2 insight (Lords of the Wheel))
Climb +24 (5 ranks, 3 class skill, 16 Str)
Diplomacy +28 (14 ranks, 3 class skill, 6 Cha, 5 competence (armor))
Fly +14 using wand/+15 using armor (1 rank, 3 class skill, 2 Dex, 2 circumstance (boots), 5 competence (boots), 4 maneuverability, 3/4 CL wand/armor, -6 size)
Intimidate +59 (20 ranks (mask), 3 class skill, 6 Cha, 16 Str (Intimidating Prowess), 2 Soulless Gaze, 10 competence (mask), 2 circumstance (metamorphosis))
Knowledge (martial, psionics) +7 (3 ranks, 3 class skill, 1 Int)
Perception +38 (20 ranks (mask), 3 class skill, 5 Wis, 10 competence (mask))
Sense Motive +40 (20 ranks (mask), 3 class skill, 5 Wis, 2 insight (Lords of the Wheel), 10 competence (mask))
Stealth +4 (1 rank, 3 class skill, 2 Dex, 2 insight (Lords of the Wheel), -4 size)
Use Magic Device +19 (3 ranks, 3 class skill, 6 Cha, 5 competence (gauntlets), 2 circumstance (wand instruction manual))

Magic Weapon Costs and Abilities
Nephilim's Grip 51,000 gp (deep crystal spiked gauntlet (1,000 gp), +1 enhancement, angered (+2 cost), benevolent (+1 cost), training (Enforcer) (+1 cost))
Solstice's Grip 33,000 gp (deep crystal spiked gauntlet (1,000 gp), +1 enhancement, training (Black Seraph Annihilation, Seize the Opportunity, Shield Slam) (+3 cost))
Amulet of Mighty Fists 85,000 gp (dueling (PSFG) (+1 cost), furious (+1 cost), leveraging (+1 cost), dueling (14,000 gp), psychic (35,000 gp))
Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes 27,000 gp (+1 enhancement, cruel (+1 cost), training (Improved Initiative) (+1 cost))
Fiend's Grips Effective Enhancement Bonus +3 to +7 (1 gauntlets enhancement, 2 furious, 0-4 psychic)






Level
Class
Features
Feats retrained@ lvl
Maneuversdiscipline lvl Boost/Counter/Strike and Powers retrained@ lvl


1
Monk 1
Gauntlet Strike, shielding fist
Intimidating Prowess4, Improved Shield BashB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Weapon Focus (spiked gauntlet)B
Iron ShellIT1C, Lesson II: ControlFE1, Minute HandRH1B, One-Two PunchFE1S


2
Wilder 1
Wild surge +1, psychic enervation, surge blast, surge bond (rage)
-
defensive precognition


3
Warder 1
Defensive focus, fiend’s grip
Combat ReflexesB, Extra Power Known10, Lurker in DarknessB (Lords of the Wheel)
ClockwatcherRH1C, Flurry StrikeBB1, Guard’s OathEG1S, Spilled SaltCR1C, Terrifying BlowEG1S, Black Seraph's GlareBS1, offensive precognition


4
Warlord 1
Barking irons, daring gambit, dastardly gambit, dazzling gambit, salt in the wound, sea dog
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms)B, Greater Dirty TrickB, Improved Dirty TrickB, Two-Weapon Fighting
Encouraging RoarGL1B, Hunting PartyGL1S, Leaping DragonTD1B, Swift ClawsTD1S, Tactical StrikeGL1S, Whirlwind SweepFE1S, Inner Sphere StanceTD1


5
Zealot 1
Collective, compartmentalized aid, zeal +1
Seize the Opportunity9
Reactive ReversionSG2B-16, Grasp of the GoddessSG3B, Piercing StrikePT1S-8, The Best Weapon is TheirsFE3C-10, Thunderous FallPT2S-13, Iron Pikeman’s AttitudePT3


6
Zealot 2
Burning contemplation, conviction (psionic conviction), martyrdom 3
Psionic BodyB
Time SkitterRH3B, Riven Hourglass StanceRH3


7
Zealot 3
Commitment, telepathy
Psionic Meditation
Temporal Body AdjustmentRH4C


8
Zealot 4
Echoes of steel, protection mission focus (living bastion)
EnforcerB (training weapon)
Grim Guard’s LaughterEG4S


9
Awakened Blade 1
Situational awareness
Additional Traits (Blade of Mercy, Psionic Knack), Black Seraph Style, Deep FocusB, Seize the OpportunityB (training weapon)
-


10
Awakened Blade 2
Stance of the inner eye, 2nd level wilder manifesting
Intimidating Prowess
Thrashing Dragon TwistTD5S, Relativity BurstRH5C-20


11
Awakened Blade 3
Uncanny dodge, 3rd level wilder manifesting
Buckler Bash, Shield SlamB (training weapon)
Stance of the ThunderbrandPT5


12
Awakened Blade 4
4th level wilder manifesting
Improved MetamorphosisB
Overpowering OptimismSG6B, minor metamorphosis17


13
Awakened Blade 5
Precognitive defense, 5th level wilder manifesting
Fiendskin (fire)
Sands of Time HurricaneRH7S


14
Awakened Blade 6
Hypercognitive focus
-
Beat the ClockRH7C


15
Awakened Blade 7
Clairsentient counter, 6th level wilder manifesting
Black Seraph's Malevolence, Black Seraph AnnihilationB (training weapon)
banshee’s hearing


16
Awakened Blade 8
7th level wilder manifesting
Shared PowerB
Hammer of the ImmortalEG8S, Orichalcum SwipeGL8S, Lesson VI: SupremacyFE8


17
Awakened Blade 9
Improved uncanny dodge, 8th level wilder manifesting
Expanded Knowledge (metamorphosis)
fold space, heartbinding, metamorphosis


18
Awakened Blade 10
Pretercognitive mind, 9th level wilder manifesting
Improved InitiativeB (training weapon)
Oath of EternityEG9C


19
Zealot 5
Defiance, zeal +2
DiehardB, Soulless Gaze
Break the HourglassRH9C, God of the Hourglass StanceRH8,


20
Zealot 6
Conviction (combat conviction)
Dirty Trick MasterB
Lord of the PridelandsGL9?




Please ask away if something seems unclear! Improvement suggestions are of course also highly appreciated!

EDIT: Fixed the errors discovered by Castilonium and exelsisxax - thank you guys! - and a few other minor details that were off. /EDIT

[khadgar567]

Hurray!
snip
can I request more explanation for nephilim upho with preferably villainous competion format were you explain her moves as text like how she readies herself before fight, how she fights during combat and

[upho]

can I request more explanation for nephilim upho with preferably villainous competion format were you explain her moves as text like how she readies herself before fight, how she fights during combat andSure, but this may take a while (I'll edit this post once I'm done).

EDIT: I decided to grab the bull by the horns fallen half-camel, half-angel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim)/black seraph (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraph) by the wings and do this for 20th level, when Nelly's tricks are the most numerous and complex.

This section details Nelly's (practically) always active melee attack hit effects and the rather complex chains of actions these effects may grant, plus her typical pre-combat preparations and her typical tactics during combat.

Basic Melee Combos
A large portion of Nelly's build options are geared towards improving her melee attacks, regardless of the action taken which included the melee attack (strike, combat maneuver, AoO, charge, etc) or when she took it (during her own turn or outside of it), and - as far as possible - also regardless of the target's passive melee defenses (AC and CMD values, size, immunities etc). These options make up combinations which primarily provide free action demoralization and combat maneuvers which may stack increasingly severe penalties on the target, and grant Nelly additional control options and additional attacks against the target in the form of AoOs, potentially forming very long chains of actions with devastating total effects.


In the hopes of making this a bit easier to grasp, I've divided the main components of mentioned chains into three distinct combos.


Thunderbull Gauntlet Bashing Combo
This combo forms the basis of Nelly's action chains and requires plenty of build resources. Although virtually all components are likely to provide benefits (not necessarily listed below) during all levels, the combo isn't fully online until Nelly reaches 11th level when her zealot IL and Awakened Blade levels allow her to pick Stance of the Thunderbrand:



Level
Class
Key Components
Key Mechanics
Resulting Combo


1
Monk 1
Gauntlet strike, shielding fist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/dreamscarred-press---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-silver-fist-monk-archetype), Improved Shield Bash
Gauntlet strike and shielding fist makes (any) gauntlets count as bucklers in addition to their other effects/properties. Improved Shield Bash is a prerequisite for Shield Slam.
Nelly's (spiked) gauntlets are also treated as bucklers and she can make shield bashes without losing the shield bonus (but she must still use a light or heavy shield to bash).


3
Warder 1
Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder) based on Wis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/ordained-defender-warder-archetype), fiend’s grip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/fiendbound-marauder-warder-archetype)
Additional AoOs equal to Wis mod each round, and the ability to manifest fiend's grips which are treated as spiked gauntlets and natural attacks.
Nelly can make additional AoOs and the radius of the area she threatens with her fiend’s grips/gauntlets increases with a distance equal to her natural reach.


4
Warlord 1
Two-Weapon Fighting
The second feat in the classic shield fighting chain and also prerequisite for Shield Slam.
-


11
Awakened Blade 3
Buckler Bash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Buckler-Bash-Combat-), Shield Slam (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-slam-combat---final), Stance of the Thunderbrand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/piercing-thunder-maneuvers#TOC-Stance-of-the-Thunderbrand)
Buckler Bash allows making shield bashes with a buckler, Shield Slam grants a free action bull rush on a shield bash hit, and the stance means any movement in threatened area provokes an AoO.
Nelly can make a bull rush attempt as a free action on any hit with her fiend’s grip, and the movement caused by her bull rush provokes an AoO from her.



At 20th level, Nelly can effectively make up to 7 bull rushes, provoking and triggered by 6 AoOs (or 17 bull rushes and 16 AoOs with Oath of Eternity), all against a target she hits once with any kind of melee attack. Provided she keeps hitting and successfully bull rushing the target, of course.


Soulless Seraph of Sarenrae Combo
In order to demoralize a large majority of her opponents as far into uselessness as possible, Nelly uses a fairly standard combination of demoralization related feats, their mechanics enabled by a somewhat non-standard trait for an aasimar who "falls" from a Good alignment. This standard combo is in Nelly's case also enhanced with an item and some options from the Privateer template:



Level
Class
Key Components
Key Mechanics
Resulting Combo


3
Warder 1
Black Seraph's Glare, fiend's grip
The Black Seraph stance is a prerequisite for the Black Seraph Style feat and gives a free demoralize attempt vs hit enemy, and a fiend's grip is a slashing weapon.
Nelly can demoralize enemies she hits as a free action, and uses a slashing weapon (condition for gaining the benefits of the Blade of Mercy trait, see below).


4
Warlord 1
Daring gambit, dazzling gambit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/privateer-template)
Grants a warlord gambit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord#TOC-Warlord-s-Gambit-Ex-), and a free demoralize attempt vs enemies within 30' when successfully performing a warlord gambit.
Nelly can demoralize all enemies within 30' as a free action when she successfully performs her warlord gambit.


8
Zealot 4
Enforcer
Grants free demoralize attempt vs enemy damaged by nonlethal damage.
Nelly can demoralize enemies she damages with nonlethal damage as a free action, without having to be in the Black Seraph's Glare stance.


9
Awakened Blade 1
Additional Traits (Blade of Mercy), Black Seraph Style
Blade of Mercy allows dealing nonlethal damage with slashing weapons w/o penalties. Black Seraph Style grants a scaling bonus to saves and AC vs creatures suffering from fear conditions.
Nelly can use Enforcer with her fiend's grips w/o penalties for dealing nonlethal damage, and gains a scaling profane bonus to defenses against attacks/abilities of scared opponents.


10
Awakened Blade 2
Intimidating Prowess
Adds Str mod in addition to Cha mod to Intimidate skill checks.
Nelly gains a bonus to Intimidate equal to her Str mod, ensuring her demoralization attempts always succeeds against non-immune creatures.


13
Awakened Blade 5
Fiendskin
At least two damnation feats are required to gain the key benefit of Soulless Gaze (see below).
-


15
Awakened Blade 7
Black Seraph's Malevolence, Black Seraph Annihilation
Creatures within 30' lose immunity to fear effects (even if immune to mind-affecting).
Nelly's demoralization attempts ignores the immunities of targets within 30' of her.


19
Zealot 5
Soulless Gaze, Menacing Mask*
When demoralizing a target already demoralized, its fear condition may become more severe rather than have its duration extended. The Menacing Mask grants a +10 competence bonus to Intimidate.
Whenever Nelly demoralizes an opponent she has already demoralized, the fear condition increases (up to panicked/cowering from 3 successful attempts), and her Intimidate checks always succeeds.


*Approximate level when the item is gained.

In short, Nelly is one seriously scary cameraph (= camel-seraph, meaning an angel-blooded aasimar of gamla descent). Again, please note that Soulless Gaze was deliberately delayed until the next to final level, being an extremely powerful feat which would be much more likely to feel/be OP if gained earlier, especially by a competent melee combatant having plenty of highly synergizing mechanics (like Nelly).


Dirty Opportunism Combo
To really ramp up the power of her AoOs and her ability to chain multiple AoOs from a single trigger, Nelly's final distinctive melee combo consists of a warlord's gambit, dirty trick feats, Seize the Opportunity and a few boosting items (the most significant listed below). This dirty trick combo gives Nelly a good chance to debuff her enemies with sure-fire, long-lasting and serious penalties from 4th level and onward, and its Dirty Trick Master "capstone" (deliberately delayed until the final level), grants Nelly the ability to nauseate or daze an enemy, completely removing it from combat using no more than two AoOs (naturally chained through her Thunderbull Gauntlet Bashing combo detailed above).



Level
Class
Key Components
Key Mechanics
Resulting Combo


4
Warlord 1
Dastardly gambit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord#TOC-Warlord-s-Gambit-Ex-), salt in the wound (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/privateer-template) (Improved and Greater Dirty Trick)
Dastardly gambit grants Cha mod luck bonus to dirty trick attempt, and the two feats grants the usual combat maneuver feat benefits, extends the duration and changes the required action to remove a condition imposed by dirty trick from move to standard.
Nelly can make a dirty trick gambit, has a +4 to dirty trick CMB and can make dirty tricks without provoking. A condition applied by her dirty trick typically lasts longer than normal and the target must spend a standard action to remove it.


5
Zealot 1
Seize the Opportunity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats)
Allows making an attack action or standard action combat maneuver in place of the normal attack as an AoO.
Nelly can make a dirty trick attempt instead of a normal melee attack when making an AoO.


12*
Awakened Blade 4
Dueling (PSFG (http://archivesofnethys.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20(PSFG) )/psionic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-weapons#TOC-Dueling)) Amulet of Mighty Fists
Provides a luck bonus equal to twice the enhancement bonus to dirty trick performed with the weapon (in addition to the enhancement bonus).
Nelly gains up to a +14 luck bonus to her dirty trick attempts made with her fiend's grips (meaning virtually all her dirty trick attempts).


20
Zealot 6
Dirty Trick Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-trick-master-combat)
When successfully making a dirty trick against a target already suffering from a condition from previous dirty trick, the existing condition can be worsened in place of adding a different normal condition.
When Nelly succeeds on a dirty trick attempt against an enemy dazzled or sickened from a previous dirty trick, she can make the enemy dazed or nauseated so the enemy can not remove the condition.


*Approximate level when the item is gained.

In short, since two dirty trick AoOs can nauseate or daze an enemy for several rounds, Nelly can remove up to at least 3 enemies from combat each round with her 6 AoOs (or up to at least 8 enemies during a round when she uses Oath of Eternity). Besides the silly power of Dirty Trick Master, I personally think the most noteworthy aspect of this combo is how darn cheap it comes, primarily because of the amazing prereq bypassing freebies granted by the Privateer warlord dip. Apparently Nelly's a salty dame, and the soundtrack of her combat style (https://youtu.be/whQQpwwvSh4), as well as her fall from grace (https://youtu.be/gEPmA3USJdI?t=90), was obviously written by her old pirate crew of ancient rocker grognards from "down under"... :smalltongue:


Other Components
The "Big 3" combos above are also supported and complemented by several additional components, most notably:

Gargantuan Size and 55' Reach granted by her gamla heritage (gained at birth), (minor) metamorphosis (gained at 12th and 17th level), fiend's grip (at 4th), protection mission (at 8th), Stance of the Thunderbrand (at 11th) and wand of long arm (plus Use Magic Device ranks, at approx. 14th). These components multiply the value of all her other options which improve her melee attacks and vastly increase her capabilities as a defender, and grant large bonuses to CMB and allow her to ignore nearly all size difference caps on combat maneuvers.
Grab ability of the fiend's grip (gained at 4th), providing Nelly with a free grapple attempt on each melee hit.
Constrict ability of the Anaconda's Coils Belt (gained at approx. 13th), enabling Nelly to deal constrict damage - and therefore also to make additional free demoralize attempts - with each successful grapple attempt.
Fiend's Grips treated as both spiked gauntlets and natural attacks, allowing Nelly to simultaneously gain any magic abilities of her gauntlets as well as other items or spells (such as an Amulet of Mighty Fists or a strong jaw spell), granting her increased versatility and a considerable boost to wealth in especially higher levels.
Furious (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/furious), Leveraging (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/leveraging) and Psychic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-weapons#TOC-Psychic) Weapon and various minor items (the first gained at approx. 12th), providing very substantial bonuses (up to +42(!) to reposition and trip) for a relatively low cost to several of Nelly's CMB checks.
A bunch of maneuvers boosting combat maneuvers and/or granting multiple attacks.


Combined Result
When all the above is in place at 20th, a single successful melee attack, granted by any action at any time, can provide for example the following chain of actions (average damage, indentation means the listed action is dependent on the last previous action(s) with less indentation being successful):

1 Free - grapple attempt granted by grab (usually only made during Nelly's own turn in order to not prevent her from releasing the grapple and making further AoOs): target moved to adjacent to Nelly and both are grappled

2 None - constrict granted by grapple and Anaconda’s Coils Belt: 44 damage
3 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer and constrict damage: target is shaken and Nelly gains +5 profane to AC and saves vs the target's attacks/abilities
4 Free - Nelly ends grapple: target and Nelly are no longer grappled
5 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer and damage of initial attack (if any): target is sickened for 1 round (Cruel Weapon) and frightened
6 Free - bull rush attempt granted by Buckler Bash and Shield Slam: moving target at least 5' after:

7 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: target dazzled

8 Free - grapple attempt as 1 above

9 None - constrict as 2 above
10 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer and constrict damage: target is panicked, dropping anything it holds
11 Free - Nelly ends grapple as 4 above
12 Free - lock attempt granted by Lesson VI: Supremacy (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWw7bVMARxrXfRuOW20NlRqXEnS_XGLPT6LHTbz2qME/edit#heading=h.xx2gm1b9axxq): target is locked (must make Reflex save vs DC 38 to move)
13 Free - bull rush as 6 above

14 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: target dazed

15 Free - grapple attempt as 1 above

16 None - constrict as 2 above
17 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer and constrict damage: target is panicked for additional rounds
18 Free - Nelly ends grapple as 4 above
19 Free - bull rush as 6 above

(And so on, up to a total of 4 additional AoOs, each dealing 65 damage or imposing additional dirty trick conditions, and triggering subsequent grabs, bull rushes and demoralization attempts, increasing the number of rounds the target is panicked)
20 Automatic - target is pushed back the total distance (typically more than 15') caused by successful bull rushes (6, 13 and 19 above)

So in total, the target takes at least 132 damage and is locked, sickened for 1 round, dazed for typically more than 2 rounds, panicked (or cowering) for typically at the very least 6 rounds, and bull rushed at least 15' back and potentially knocked prone. This is in addition to any damage dealt and any other effects caused by the initial hit triggering the combo.


Basic Tactics

Before Combat
Nelly adopts Lesson VI: Supremacy (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWw7bVMARxrXfRuOW20NlRqXEnS_XGLPT6LHTbz2qME/edit#heading=h.xx2gm1b9axxq) with Stance of Thunderbrand and manifests banshee’s hearing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_DKnAARY4I9Q16jCacwm2X-KVmnKObs6J_FBIgZrOc8/edit) and heartbinding (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_DKnAARY4I9Q16jCacwm2X-KVmnKObs6J_FBIgZrOc8/edit) at the start of each day (both powers having a 12 hours duration), preferably targeting another Str based frontline combatant in her collective with heartbinding so Nelly and the target can share morale bonuses throughout the day. Yes, that means an ally of Nelly gains all the bonuses of her rage without any of the penalties; +6 to Str and Con, and +2 to Will saves.

When Nelly suspects she's likely to run into enemies within minutes, she starts cycling Time Skitter, manifests metamorphosis (11 min. duration, effects detailed in build summary) using her cognizance crystals before using her own PP reserve, and uses her wands of contingent action (5 min.), fly (6 min.), long arm (5 min.), and strong jaw (7 min.). At this high level, Nelly typically sets the contingent action to enter the Black Seraph Style stance, to be triggered when she rolls initiative, but if she believes she won't face any enemies immune to fear or mind-affecting, she may instead use the granted action to make an additional strike in the first round. These effects are included in the build summary. In addition, if Nelly believes the upcoming battle will be very challenging, she can also manifest metamorphosis on one or more of her allies through the Shared Power feat, and activate her Boots of the Battle Herald, sharing also those morale bonuses via heartbinding (these effects are not included in the build summary).

During Combat
Coming soonTM!



Credit to exelsisxax for general hole-poking!

In order to show Nelly's combat mechanics against truly dangerous opponents and hopefully provide at least a glimpse of her actual in-game combat effectiveness, without me having to write the equivalent of a PhD thesis on the subject, I'm going to describe an opening round in a somewhat simplified fight against Pazuzu (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-lords/demon-lord-pazuzu) (the CR 30 demon lord). Since Nelly is rather heavily optimized to be effective in a primary defender/controller (secondary leader) combat role, she should be capable of beating the opposition on her own while also protecting and supporting a few useless squishy allies, even if Pazuzu has brought along say three balor lords (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/balor/balor-lord) (CR 25 each, let's call them "Leftbal", "Midbal" and "Rightbal"). For simplicity's sake, I've assumed that Nelly and her useless allies encounter these monsters in some dark featureless place with plenty of room to move, starting about 60' from the enemies (when a combatant is first able to see and target an opponent):


http://res.cloudinary.com/upho/image/upload/q_100/v1484447431/Nelly_vs_Pazuzu_y0ptnj.png
LB = Leftbal, MB = Midbal, RB = Rightbal
P = Pazuzu (flying 20' above ground)
N = Nelly (flying 20' above ground)
A = Nelly's PC allies

I've also assumed that no combatant is surprised and all have some rudimentary knowledge of the opposition's strength gleaned from scouting, Knowledge skill checks, potential previous run-ins etc. (For Nelly, this would include say approximate minimum CR and maybe the most obvious creature/class type, meaning something along the lines of "one unique(ly) badass demon lord of a CR above 28, and three martially oriented balor-ish demons, each of a CR above 24".)

The following describes the combatants' likely actions and their effects, including average damage (adjusted for hit chance but not including crit damage, rounded to closest integer) and average/typical chances and results of other effects. As before, indentation means the listed action is dependent on the last previous action(s) with less indentation being successful. Note also that outside of the rules specifically for AoOs, there are AFAIK no general rules detailing the order in which to resolve multiple free and potentially interrupting actions triggered by one single event and/or its immediate effects, so in the cases when the rules are silent I've assumed the creature performing the actions in question decides the order. Naturally, I've tried to adhere strictly to RAW.

1 Initiative roll
Nelly has the highest initiative bonus so she is likely to act first.

2 Automatic by Nelly
Nelly's contingent action is triggered, and she enters Black Seraph Style stance.

3 Standard by Nelly
Nelly initiates Lord of the Pridelands: Nelly and her allies gain +10 morale to hit, damage, AC, and saves for 1 round (assuming her allies are 3 PCs and at least one of them has a familiar/AC/eidolon or similar).

4 Free by Nelly
Nelly uses Precognitive Defenses by expending her psionic focus to initiate Oath of Eternity: for 1 round, Nelly's AoOs deals +3d6 damage and curses target for 1 round, and she can make a total of 16 AoOs during round.

5 Move by Nelly
Nelly flies off to pick a fight, moving 55' straight north to within 10' of Pazuzu and 30' of the balor lords (of course taking the opportunity to call the demon lord "A chicken little chicken!" and cackle mockingly for emphasis). Nelly would have automatically succeeded on the save vs Pazuzu's Aura of Locusts (Fortitude +44 vs DC 43), but she does not need make the throw as Pazuzu is pushed back at least 20', after he takes 179 damage (mostly nonlethal) and becomes blinded for at least 2 rounds, cowering for 3 rounds, cursed and sickened for 1 round and dazed for 5 rounds:

5.1 Free - Precognitive Defenses by Nelly expending her Deep Focus, triggered by Nelly being exposed to Pazuzu's Aura of Locusts, allowing her to initiate Break the Hourglass
5.2 Move granted by Break the Hourglass - in this situation, Nelly unfortunately can't use this move for anything more constructive than going "Nye, nye, nye, nye, nye!" at Pazuzu and sticking out her tongue at him
5.3 Standard granted by Break the Hourglass - Hammer of the Immortal vs Pazuzu: 95% hit chance (+57 vs AC 48) for 98 damage, -4 AC and CMD, and Nelly and her allies gain +2 morale to attack for 2 rounds

5.4 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer: Pazuzu shaken for 3 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 57) and Nelly gains +5 profane to AC and saves vs his attacks
5.5 Swift - Dastardly Gambit: Nelly gains +6 luck to dirty trick (doesn't stack with the +14 luck already granted by Nelly's Dueling (PFSG) Amulet of Mighty Fists)
5.6 Free - dirty trick attempt granted by Hammer of the Immortal: 90% chance of Pazuzu being blinded for at least 2 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 88); Nelly recovers Hammer of the Immortal, allies recover 1 maneuver (and all gain +6 morale to damage which doesn't stack with the +10 already granted by Lord of the Pridelands)

5.7 Free - Hypercognitive Focus granted by Nelly recovering a maneuver: Nelly regains her Deep Focus
5.8 Free - Intimidate attempt vs enemies within 30' granted by Dazzling Gambit: Pazuzu frightened for 3 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 57), and the balor lords are shaken for 6 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 43), and Nelly gains +5 profane to AC and saves vs their attacks as well
5.9 Free - grapple attempt granted by grab: 0% success chance since Pazuzu is protected by constant freedom of movement (Though not listed, Nelly might make additional free grapple attempts on her following hits (5.11, 5.14 and 5.16 below) without realizing the futility of it.)
5.10 Free - bull rush attempt granted by Buckler Bash and Shield Slam: 99% success chance (bull rush CMB +74 best of two rolls vs CMD 77), moving Pazuzu at least 5' after:

5.11 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - 95% hit chance for 81 damage and Pazuzu is cursed and sickened for 1 round

5.12 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer: Pazuzu panicked for 3 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 57), dropping the Scepter Of Shibaxet
5.13 Free - bull rush as 5.10 above

5.14 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: Pazuzu dazzled for 5 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 77)

5.15 Free - bull rush attempt as 5.01 above

5.16 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: Pazuzu dazed for 5 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 77)

5.17 Free - bull rush attempt as 5.10 above
5.18 Automatic - Pazuzu is pushed back the total distance (typically at least 20') caused by successful bull rushes (5.10, 5.13, 5.15 and 5.17 above)

6 Standard by Leftbal
In their current positions, none of the balor lords are close enough to Nelly's allies to be able to see and target them, so the demons are therefore likely to decide to first concentrate on the most immediate threat, meaning Nelly. Especially since that threat just made their boss soil his feathers in fear before hitting him over the head so hard even the balors can see the obligatory imaginary little chattering quasits flying in circles around their leader, cartoon style. So unless Leftbal decides to simply flee instead of attacking (unlikely), it must try to either charge Nelly, move south towards where it probably has heard Nelly's allies, and/or cast a spell. Going by the tactics section in the bestiary entry for balor lords, Leftbal is most likely to try using a damaging SLA, like firestorm, targeting the whole space Nelly occupies. And if Leftbal does so, all three balor lords are most likely doomed, each one taking 98 damage (mostly nonlethal), being panicked for 12 rounds, dazed for 8 rounds and pushed back up to at least 30', while Leftbal's firestorm never occurs since Nelly's immediate response to the threat interrupts the balor's action to use the SLA:

6.1 Immediate - Clairsentient Counter by Nelly expending her Deep Focus and Hunting Party, triggered by Nelly potentially being affected by Leftbal's firestorm
6.2 Standard granted by Clairsentient Counter - Hammer of the Immortal vs Leftbal: 95% hit chance (+57 vs AC 33) for 98 damage, -4 AC and CMD, and Leftbal is sickened for 1 round (and Nelly and her allies gain +2 morale to attack for 2 rounds)

6.3 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer: Leftbal is frightened for 6 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 43)
6.4 Free - dirty trick attempt granted by Hammer of the Immortal: Leftbal is dazzled for 8 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 62)
6.5 Free - bull rush attempt granted by Buckler Bash and Shield Slam: 99% success chance (bull rush CMB +74 best of two rolls vs CMD 62), moving Leftbal up to at least 15' after:

6.6 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: Leftbal is cursed for 1 round and dazed for 8 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 62)

6.7 Free - bull rush as 6.5 above
6.8 Automatic - Leftbal is pushed back the total distance (typically up to at least 30') caused by successful bull rushes (6.5 and 6.7 above)
6.9 None - Hammer of the Immortal vs Midbal: as 6.2 - 6.8 above but against Midbal
6.10 None - Hammer of the Immortal vs Rightbal: as 6.2 - 6.8 above but against Rightbal

Resources Spent When the first round ends, Nelly has expended Hunting Party and all her readied zealot/awakened blade maneuvers except Temporal Body Adjustment, Thrashing Dragon Twist and Time Skitter, plus her psionic focus and Deep Focus. She has also used her Hypercognitive Focus for the round and made 6 AoOs (10 additional AoOs possible before the start of her next turn).

Clearly, Pazuzu and his balor lords lost this fight almost before it started. As they end up dazed and cowering or frightened for several rounds, Nelly and her allies have plenty of time to take care of the beaten demons in the way they prefer before Pazuzu is able to threaten anyone with so much as bad language.

Due to Pazuzu's +13 to Initiative and the inherently fluky nature of opposed d20 rolls, there's a considerable risk Pazuzu wins the initiative and may act before Nelly. But even if he can do so, he still doesn't stand much of chance against her in a straight up fight like this. None of his SLAs or (Su) abilities has a DC high enough to affect Nelly while she's affected by Lord of the Pridelands, and even should she not be, none of his SLAs will be effective and none of his (Su) abilities will have more than a 40% chance to succeed if Nelly makes a saving throw (the most powerful ones being avoided with a successful Fortitude or Will save vs DC 43). But most importantly, any effect he tries to expose Nelly to can be countered by her Clairsentient Counter or Break the Hourglass, meaning Pazuzu grants Nelly up to a standard and a move action to interrupt his triggering standard action each time he uses any such offensive SLA or (Su) ability. On top of that, Nelly's Precognitive Defenses, Deep Focus and Hypercognitive Focus ensures she may typically make two such interrupting counters per round at any time, in addition to her normally granted actions, while Pazuzu may only make the normal one standard action during his own turn, leaving him far behind Nelly in the action economy race.

Instead, if Pazuzu is lucky and gets to go first, to avoid further humiliation and likely being captured, his best chance is actually to just get the hell abyss out by using his greater teleport as his very first action. That can at least save his ruffled feathers long enough for him to start trying to deal with Nelly in some much less overt manner. But Pazuzu is highly unlikely to realize this without having very extensive and highly detailed knowledge of Nelly's combat abilities. And if he does have such knowledge, he probably would've used his considerable power to ensure he doesn't risk ending up anywhere remotely close to Nelly in the first place, much less in a fight he knows he's bound to lose. Instead, he'd probably try offering Nelly some kind of agreement to help her against common enemies, hoping to (further) corrupt her soul in the process so he may eventually turn her into his powerful servant once her life is at an end.

The next best thing Pazuzu can do if he wins initiative is probably to go for Nelly's magic items and buffs using a targeted greater dispel magic. This action has the problem of triggering Nelly's Clairsentient Counter or Break the Hourglass, and may very well put Pazuzu within range of Nelly's interrupting attacks since he must be within 60' in order to see and target her. But this option at least has a chance of causing Nelly some minor annoyance and may delay Pazuzu's downfall another round if he can get most of his allies between him and Nelly.


The short of it is that AFAICT virtually no monster (besides perhaps Cthulhu) published by Paizo is able to actually challenge Nelly in a straight up fight at this level, at least not without having considerable circumstantial advantages (such as the above fight taking place in Pazuzu's own layer in the Abyss and against several of his most powerful servants/allies). Some monsters may however still get to Nelly's allies, although they'll probably need a lot of luck and the perfect opportunity in order to succeed in doing so, and they likely won't be able to escape Nelly's immediate retaliation. But against for example enemies with strong Mythic powers, and/or more optimized high level initiators or full caster NPCs, Nelly isn't necessarily even remotely as superior.

EDIT 2: I hope all of the many and embarrassing errors in the example round above has been corrected now, the biggest of them found only thanks to exelsisxax's vigilant scrutiny! Thanks a ton! /EDIT 2

[khadgar567]

Sure, but this may take a while (I'll edit this post once I'm done).
thanks its little bit more easy to understand that way at least for newbie.

[the_archduke]

For recommended weapons, how about the nodachi? It counts as both a heavy blade and a polearm so it is a discipline weapon for Golden Lion, Piercing Thunder, Sleeping Goddess, and Eternal Guardian. (And Cursed Razor, Iron Tortoise, Mithral Current, Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, Shattered Mirror, and Black Seraph too)

1d10 (18-20 x2) Brace and is martial not exotic to boot

[Castilonium]

@the_archduke, good idea! I'll add that in to the equipment section.

@upho, WELL! Yet again you have bamboozled me again with your optimization-fu! But I have a few questions and hole-pokings.

How Nelly NG/N when she has a level of monk? I know aasimar can get a trait that lets them be NG monks, but she doesn't have it. If she becomes LN, she can't get Blade of Mercy, because she can't worship Sarenrae anymore.

Her level 10 build says she regains psionic focus every time she refreshes maneuvers, but I think she needs 6 levels of Awakened Blade to do that, right?

How are you applying the effects of an amulet of mighty fists and strong jaw wand to fiend's grip? They count as spiked gauntlets, which aren't unarmed strikes or natural attacks.

You forgot to add the +2 bonus to saves for a level 1 monk dip, and you have barbarian listed in there.

See if there's a way to get Woedrinker (Cursed Razor 7). It's a pretty ludicrously powerful number-stacking boost that lasts a long time.

You've made quite a well laid out and formatted build, which I appreciate a bunch! But I have noooooo idea how I'm going to fit it into my guide, if only due to the sheer ginormous size and complexity. It also has a lot of items from Bloodforge and Steelforge which I haven't included in my guide yet. Maybe I could write down the basic details, and add a link to your post. Thank you very much for sharing your build!

And don't worry, I will put prestige classes in the guide as well. Awakened Blade is an obvious choice, and Animus Mage is something I've been looking at thoroughly recently.

[exelsisxax]

Upho, in addition to my previous "fiend's grip's don't work like that", your level progression chart is breaking the highest maneuvers known rules in the early levels several times. At levels 3 and 4, your initiator will be 2 for both warder and warlord. You therefore cannot learn 2nd level maneuvers. But you learn 5 each level in that chart.

Any explanation for that? Or are you just retraining and i'm not getting it?

[digiman619]

Quick question: In your dipping guide, you suggest 3 levels of War Soul Soulknife. I get the Warsoul; a few maneuvers and a stance are worth more than a 1d8 psychic strike that occasionally works, but why 3 levels? 2 I get; you get a blade skill and can nab extra via feat. What does the third Soulknife level get you?

[phlidwsn]

Quick question: In your dipping guide, you suggest 3 levels of War Soul Soulknife. I get the Warsoul; a few maneuvers and a stance are worth more than a 1d8 psychic strike that occasionally works, but why 3 levels? 2 I get; you get a blade skill and can nab extra via feat. What does the third Soulknife level get you?

At 3rd Mind Blade gets its first +1 enhancement bonus via Enhanced Mind Blade +1. It is also far enough in to the class that you can now grab the feat Fighter's Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/fighter-s-blade) for Enhanced Mind Blade +3 at character level 7.

[digiman619]

At 3rd Mind Blade gets its first +1 enhancement bonus via Enhanced Mind Blade +1. It is also far enough in to the class that you can now grab the feat Fighter's Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/fighter-s-blade) for Enhanced Mind Blade +3 at character level 7.

Gotcha. I just saw "Zealot an Soulknife levels stack" and failed to realize you can't advance an ability you don't have yet.

[upho]

@upho, WELL! Yet again you have bamboozled me again with your optimization-fu! But I have a few questions and hole-pokings.

How Nelly NG/N when she has a level of monk? I know aasimar can get a trait that lets them be NG monks, but she doesn't have it. If she becomes LN, she can't get Blade of Mercy, because she can't worship Sarenrae anymore.

Her level 10 build says she regains psionic focus every time she refreshes maneuvers, but I think she needs 6 levels of Awakened Blade to do that, right?
You forgot to add the +2 bonus to saves for a level 1 monk dip, and you have barbarian listed in there.
Upho, in addition to my previous "fiend's grip's don't work like that", your level progression chart is breaking the highest maneuvers known rules in the early levels several times. At levels 3 and 4, your initiator will be 2 for both warder and warlord. You therefore cannot learn 2nd level maneuvers. But you learn 5 each level in that chart.

Any explanation for that? Or are you just retraining and i'm not getting it?Whoa, all of these are total copy-pasta errors by me. Sorry! The build originally had barb levels and another build order which I apparently missed fixing. And you're absolutely right about the monk levels, I've no idea why I forgot. Seems Nelly will have to start out as LG, or something... I'll edit.

Regarding the Giant Fist Gauntlets/fiend's grips, I just remembered that regardless of what size they are their reach remain the same, since RAW the added reach of all reach weapons (besides the whip) is dependent on the wielder's size, not the size of the weapon. (Yes, this is kinda weird and the reason I forgot - it's been house ruled in my games to not work like that for a long time.) So Nelly won't be using the Giant Fist Gauntlets anyways.


How are you applying the effects of an amulet of mighty fists and strong jaw wand to fiend's grip? They count as spiked gauntlets, which aren't unarmed strikes or natural attacks.Fiend's Grip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/fiendbound-marauder-warder-archetype): "A fiend’s grip is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

It's a fantastic WBL improver, especially in higher levels! Probably there because the poor fiend's grips would've been such bad weapons otherwise... :smallbiggrin:


See if there's a way to get Woedrinker (Cursed Razor 7). It's a pretty ludicrously powerful number-stacking boost that lasts a long time.That certainly would've been nice, but unfortunately I can't see how I'm supposed to pack even more disciplines into the build at higher levels. In addition, Woedrinker really should be supported by proper cursing, something which Nelly currently doesn't really do much at all.


You've made quite a well laid out and formatted build, which I appreciate a bunch! But I have noooooo idea how I'm going to fit it into my guide, if only due to the sheer ginormous size and complexity. It also has a lot of items from Bloodforge and Steelforge which I haven't included in my guide yet. Maybe I could write down the basic details, and add a link to your post. Thank you very much for sharing your build!Yeah, that is an issue with most higher level PoW builds. Linking sounds like a good idea though. I'll try to get the post properly sorted and get rid of the errors.


And don't worry, I will put prestige classes in the guide as well. Awakened Blade is an obvious choice, and Animus Mage is something I've been looking at thoroughly recently.Cool!

[shawshank]

I have really enjoyed your guide. I just found it myself! I was already playing a Warsoul/Zealot in one of the games I am playing now. My build is as such.

Level 9
Race: Half-Giant Traits: Practiced Initiator(Zealot)/Community-minded
Warsoul/Shielded Blade 1 - Pikeman's Training
Warsoul/Shielded Blade 2 - Improved Mind Shield
Warsoul/Shielded Blade 3 - Extra Bladeskill(Discipline Blade Shapes) - Lucerne Hammer FTW/Lurker in Darkness from Martial Tradition(largely wasted with zero investment into stealth)
Warsoul/Shielded Blade 4 - Martial Blade Recovery
Zealot 1--------------5 - Zealous Blade
Zealot 2--------------6 - Psicrystal Affinity(resolved)
Zealot 3--------------7 - Unlocked Talent - Minor Metamorphasis primarily to go large but the versatility is amazing.
Zealot 4--------------8 - Impulsive Reactions
Zealot 5--------------9 - Advanced Study

First 4 levels I went Warsoul/Shielded Blade archetypes with soulknife as they seem to stack perfectly. This allowed me to take Pikeman's Training at first level. The drawback is I had to purchase my weapon initially and use the created weapons until 3rd level when I got another extra bladeskill(discipline blade shapes) which made everything work. Thus far, I have saved nearly 40k in wealth and given up almost nothing. I took the 4th level in Soulknife so I could start off with access to 3rd level maneuvers/stances at my first zealot level. This allowed me a large jump in power at 5th level.

I mostly agree with you about the standard action uses. I personally use Encouraging Roar/Guard the Pride/Timeskitter as swifts in that order outside of combat and during as well. However, there are times when you can sneak in a full-attack action. This can be extremely potent when using a great utility stance such as elemental flux stance and timeskitter. Certainly not to the numbers of a dedicated damage class, but very solid regardless.

For this reason, I disagree with your consistent ratings of red/orange on everything that uses up a full round action etc. I would never recommend solely focusing on standard action strikes. I realize there are some extremely potent ones and I consistently nauseate lock enemies myself. But there are times when a full-attack is just better. Like a target has gotten lower in health and has a low AC. You know you will almost certainly hit with all 3 attacks from a full-attack action and with the incredible reach potential of a zealot, moving is hardly necessary to allow for this. This also allows for boosts to damage as well which can help you end an encounter for certain instead of just most likely with a lock-down build as saving throws are rarely guaranteed. Otherwise, I agree completely with your guide.

I have been meaning to edit my existing maneuver guide with some newer ratings on some of the strikes. When comparing apples to apples, you see that some there are stars at certain levels that leave others in the dust.

/Ramble off

[exelsisxax]

It's not that standard strikes are better than full-round, it's that a full attack is usually not worth it when standard strikes are always going to be at least good and zealots can move action aid another to buff the entire collective and activate their recovery mechanic.

[upho]

I mostly agree with you about the standard action uses. I personally use Encouraging Roar/Guard the Pride/Timeskitter as swifts in that order outside of combat and during as well. However, there are times when you can sneak in a full-attack action. This can be extremely potent when using a great utility stance such as elemental flux stance and timeskitter. Certainly not to the numbers of a dedicated damage class, but very solid regardless.

For this reason, I disagree with your consistent ratings of red/orange on everything that uses up a full round action etc. I would never recommend solely focusing on standard action strikes. I realize there are some extremely potent ones and I consistently nauseate lock enemies myself. But there are times when a full-attack is just better. Like a target has gotten lower in health and has a low AC. You know you will almost certainly hit with all 3 attacks from a full-attack action and with the incredible reach potential of a zealot, moving is hardly necessary to allow for this. This also allows for boosts to damage as well which can help you end an encounter for certain instead of just most likely with a lock-down build as saving throws are rarely guaranteed. Otherwise, I agree completely with your guide.
I agree with exelsisxax; there's generally just so much more to be gained by using your move to recover instead of full attacking. And while this isn't necessarily always and universally true for every build in every situation possible, of course, I certainly think it's enough so to motivate downgrading full round maneuvers in a zealot optimization guide. Note also that the guide doesn't say you should refrain from full attacking if the situation calls for it, it simply says that investing resources into improving full round actions specifically is very rarely worth the cost.

IME, the most notable exception to this are control/debuff builds with very strong rider effects on all their (melee) attacks, as their full attacks may be more powerful than any full round strike or any standard strike + recover in many situations, typically because a regular full attack allows for a greater freedom in choosing targets and/or a larger number of targets than maneuver alternatives. In other words, if these kinds of builds would make a full attack, it's almost never in order to deal single target damage, but almost always in order to do serious crowd control. And still, even these builds rarely benefit from full attacking more often than maybe once every second turn at the most, and are better off doing standard strikes + recover in other turns.

I think it's still fully possible to make a quite effective damage focused zealot, but such a build would probably be better off by investing into having tons of AoOs and AoO triggers than by improving full attacks specifically.

[shawshank]

I agree that a lot of the time you would be better off using strikes. However, if community-minded is allowed and you are using Golden Lion buffs + zeal can last 3 full rounds. So you do not have to keep refreshing every single round. That one trait could completely change a play-style, at least half the time. Now, instead of looking for the best standard action strikes only, you can open up your repertoire to include things like primal furies pounce boost which you immediately rated as red. It simply is not red. It will never be red for a zealot. You may not always use it, but it certainly has a place in a build if you wanted to fight that way and it would be fine in a zealot build.

I am not saying that the things you suggest are not good, because they are, I am arguing that you narrowed the focus down so much that it seems like the guide is railroading ideas. I made the same mistake, initially, with deadly agility. Because of that, I am far more sensitive towards anything that could be interpreted as railroading.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
Prestige Classes are now in the guide!
(Dipping) Added Mystic
(Dipping) Added Wilder
(Prestige Classes) Added Animus Adept
(Prestige Classes) Added Awakened Blade
(Equipment) Added nodachi to the Two Hander section

@upho
I see! Thanks for the explanations. That just makes Fiendbound Marauder even more purple than the purple rating I already gave it! :smallamused:

@shawshank
You sound like you're having a lot of fun with your Zealot build, and I'm glad that you enjoy my guide :smallsmile:. But I think that you could exchange your 4th level of Soulknife with something else for more benefit, like Bloodrager or Rubato Bard. Though I would understand if you don't want to lose a level of progression on your mind blade.

Sorry if it seems like I'm railroading. I'm trying to highlight the strengths and weaknesses of the Zealot and make sure people know them. Zealots have no class features that give self-only attack or damage bonuses, and use a move action to provide a huge bonus and refresh maneuvers, so I want to emphasis to readers that it's not a conventional full attacker class like literally every other full BAB class is (except maybe Warder). The goal of a Zealot is to protect and support teammates, because that is their strength compared to other classes. Yes, if using a full attack to kill a low-health enemy has a greater chance of preventing them from getting a turn instead of using Aid Another + a standard action strike, then full attacking is fine.

There is one way for a Zealot to be a better "full attacker" than other classes, and that's by using a few particular maneuvers that everyone knows are overtuned and in need of errata. A Zealot is the only class that can refresh multiple maneuvers every round, so they can combine the most powerful, overtuned strikes and boosts every round. So a Zealot can do the infamous Steel Flurry Strike + Bronze Knuckle + Pugilist Stance combo every round, and give themselves a big attack bonus with Aid Another and Harrying Partners for the round. It only gets more insane if you play a race with multiple natural attacks like a Ragebred Skinwalker, dip Aberrant Aegis to get 5 more natural attacks, use Chimera Soul and feats from Lords of the Wild to get MORE natural attacks, and then use a multi-attack standard action strike like Frenzy Strike (Primal Fury 3) in combination with damage boosts like Bronze Knuckle (Broken Blade 2). Only a Zealot can use the same strike + boost combo every single round.

Summarizing: Lots of natural attacks + Frenzy Strike + Broken Blade boosts + Harrying Partners + Aid Another on self = powerful "full attack" playstyle that only a Zealot can do every round.

But that's only one corner case. And yes, I intend to make a sample build out of it in my guide. I really hope that I've been able to show that Zealots are different from other full BAB classes, that they're a complex and versatile tank/support class, and that there are many ways to play them other than using full attacks. From my perspective, I've done the opposite of railroad.

Question: What are you referring to when you mention "primal furies pounce boost?" I gave Raging Hunter Pounce an orange rating. Do you mean Momentum Crash and its upgrades? Those only apply to the first attack on the charge, not every attack. You mention this yourself in your own guide.

I do appreciate the feedback, and your maneuver guide helped me a lot while I was writing mine, so thank you for making it :smallsmile:

[exelsisxax]

I agree that a lot of the time you would be better off using strikes. However, if community-minded is allowed and you are using Golden Lion buffs + zeal can last 3 full rounds. So you do not have to keep refreshing every single round. That one trait could completely change a play-style, at least half the time. Now, instead of looking for the best standard action strikes only, you can open up your repertoire to include things like primal furies pounce boost which you immediately rated as red. It simply is not red. It will never be red for a zealot. You may not always use it, but it certainly has a place in a build if you wanted to fight that way and it would be fine in a zealot build.

I am not saying that the things you suggest are not good, because they are, I am arguing that you narrowed the focus down so much that it seems like the guide is railroading ideas. I made the same mistake, initially, with deadly agility. Because of that, I am far more sensitive towards anything that could be interpreted as railroading.

Raging hunter pounce being red is a mistake then. It's yellow, because it's a moving full attack. If you had no way of making a pounce, it would be a good choice to take one such maneuver. Raging hunter pounce would only be taken if you wanted to go into primal fury, and you'd quickly retrain it anyway. It's very slightly better than strikes at damage, probably more movespeed, but otherwise bad unless you Echoes of Steel it for your TWF rogue to make a charging TWF full attack with flank. But again, many standard action maneuvers are superior in every respect except damage. Damage isn't versatile. It simply is not optimum. Terrible? No, but certainly not great. And for a zealot, there are a lot of great maneuvers out there.

[upho]

I agree that a lot of the time you would be better off using strikes. However, if community-minded is allowed and you are using Golden Lion buffs + zeal can last 3 full rounds. So you do not have to keep refreshing every single round. That one trait could completely change a play-style, at least half the time.Well, I'd say "yes but mostly no". Of course having your zeal (and other) morale bonuses last longer decreases the total net benefits of spamming standard strikes and your Aid Another recovery somewhat, but not by an amount anywhere near to "completely change a play-style" IME. This is simply because the morale bonus from zeal is probably the least important and most often wholly or partially redundant benefit of said spamming play style for a large majority of zealots. Instead, I think the two greatest, albeit perhaps somewhat less immediately obvious, advantages of spamming are:

Your best maneuvers are available at (nearly) all times. This is a huge advantage, in terms of versatility and very often also in terms of "pure numbers power". It sorta makes you the arcanist of initiators but with less trade-offs, allowing you to both ready a wider variety of (and/or more situationally useful) maneuvers, and to spam whatever particular maneuver(s) that happens to be the most effective against the opposition. And since there are quite a few standard action maneuvers granting full attacks (or better, depending on your build), you don't even have to trade out much of your full attack capacity in order to potentially gain tremendously in terms of action economy versatility as well.
Any benefits granted by recovering your maneuvers (potentially huge Aid Another bonuses, regaining psionic focus etc) are granted (nearly) every round. These benefits are IME potential game and play style changers, unlike the zeal morale bonuses which often unfortunately clash with the morale bonuses already granted by your or other party members' maneuvers/spells/items/features/whatever anyways.

I also suggest you don't confuse the matter with Golden Lion buffs, as these remain potentially great regardless of whether a zealot is built to generally spam or not. (And unless you intend to focus on those maneuvers and other sources of short-duration morale bonuses, the Golden Lion buffs may be at least as good for a zealot built to spam, since such a zealot isn't quite as dependent on having Community-Minded in order to keep up the granted morale bonuses.)

Similarly, note that none of this necessarily makes Community-Minded a less great trait for a zealot.



Now, instead of looking for the best standard action strikes only, you can open up your repertoire to include things like primal furies pounce boost which you immediately rated as red.I suspect you're referring to Momentum Crash (lvl 2 Primal Fury boost). If so, I totally agree with the red rating, and here's why (building upon what Castilonium wrote in the guide):

"First, you have to charge, which is no bueno for Zealots..."
Charging eats up your standard and your move action with virtually no exceptions. This means that in order to make this boost worthwhile, you lock yourself into doing a very specific thing with those actions and have very little room for changing out components should the situation call for it, at least not without making significant additional investments into charge specific options. And since one of the trademark strengths of a zealot is the ability to recover as a move action and to initiate a maneuver recovered in the same turn, any option which demands your move action is up against some pretty darn stiff competition. This doesn't mean you should never use your move action for anything except to recover of course, but it does mean that in order for you to spend a move action on something else, that something must be very effective indeed to be a better use of your move.

By extension, the same is largely true when it comes to build options. A simple definition of mechanical char-op might be something like: To improve given strengths and extend their applicability to a wider set of situations, and to compensate for given weaknesses, as far and with as little resources as possible. ("Given" referring to factors/parameters which aren't optional and comes with the class you base your build upon). So if you start with a class giving you a very strong use of your move action, it's generally a waste of resources to invest in other competing uses of your move action which doesn't build upon a given strength.

In this case, the given move action strength is very significant, can easily be improved (through for example the Helpful trait) and have it's applicability extended (through for example standard action multi-attack strikes) without requiring much resources relative to the benefits. And at the same time, investing in Momentum Crash to improve an alternative competing use of the move action means not only diverting significant resources (at least 1/4 readied maneuvers) to a use which lacks inherent support ("given strength") and also demands your standard action, it also means that in order to make that competing use of your move worthwhile you need to make significant additional investments.

"...and second, it merely adds some damage rather than a useful rider."
The same principle applies here, but more in terms of combat role/style suitability which is an extension of given strengths. Simply put, if you wanna deal charge damage and benefit from Momentum Crash, the zealot is a poor class choice.

TL/DR: If option A starts out at +10 in terms of how strong it is, and each investment increases its strength by +2, and competing option B starts out at +/-0, and each investment increases its strength by +1, it's usually wiser to build upon option A. If option A also can easily be improved to compensate for not boosting option B, and each +1 increase of option A is worth a +2 increase of option B, there's frankly very little to discuss IMO.

(Btw, just in case you got the wrong impression, note that cannot claim the honor of having rated anything in this excellent guide as I didn't write it, Castilonium did. And since I'm unfortunately not a mind reader and cannot know for certain what Castilonium's thoughts on this matter are, what I write are solely my thoughts.)



It simply is not red. It will never be red for a zealot. You may not always use it, but it certainly has a place in a build if you wanted to fight that way and it would be fine in a zealot build.First, we're talking about mechanical optimization here, so highly subjective and individual wishes/opinions, like "if you wanted to fight that way" is irrelevant in this context (though it could be said that if you wanted to optimize fighting that way you should choose a different class).

Second, in this context Momentum Crash makes for a pretty perfect example of an option that should have a red rating. And by that, I mean that it meets pretty much every criteria which could motivate a red rating:

It boosts a specific action type which the zealot gains no native support for performing.
It boosts the use of an action which the zealot has a very strong native competing use for.
It grants a bonus which the zealot isn't cut out to make the most of (charge damage), and which doesn't do much to improve the the zealot's effectiveness in the combat role and style the class was designed for (Leader/Controller).
It can be a pretty good option for many other classes better suited to charging, which makes it a trap a less experienced player has a high risk of falling into.

Can't really get much clearer than that IMO.


I am not saying that the things you suggest are not good, because they are, I am arguing that you narrowed the focus down so much that it seems like the guide is railroading ideas.I disagree. Primarily because the "spamming" style still leaves plenty of room for making widely different builds, and secondarily because I think Castilonium already mentions that there are of course niche builds for which one or more of the general guidelines don't apply. A guide has to generalize and to be as short, simple and clear as possible, otherwise the primary purpose of writing it in the first place (helping less experienced players) tends to get lost.

That said, I think a guide can of course include examples of more "exotic" niche builds and give ideas on combos far outside the "norm", but these should be put in the end.


I made the same mistake, initially, with deadly agility. Because of that, I am far more sensitive towards anything that could be interpreted as railroading.As someone who had a long discussion with you about Deadly Agility (and hopefully helped you reconsider your views), I'd say what you're talking about here isn't anywhere near comparable, at least not on any level beyond both being statements/claims about whether something is mechanically superior.

EDIT: Ouch! At least half-Stalker'd by both Castilonium and exelsisxax! :smallredface: That's what I get for not refreshing the thread before replying... /EDIT

[Mithril Leaf]

Hey sorry for not answering your earlier question, I was gone for a while and some other covered it nicely. Here's The Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10419.0) I mentioned.

The main reason I'm here though is for this hot item that basically replaces your Zeal bonus. The Karyukai Tea Set (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Karyukai%20Tea %20Set) is said item. As a charisma focused class with a decent potential for diplomacy, you should be able to reasonably hit the Greater Heroism roll by the time you can easily afford it. The gist is that it seems to grant your party Greater Heroism for 12 hours. It could be argued the other way, but since it's basically never going to receive errata, Paizo won't rule on it.

[shawshank]

Hey sorry for not answering your earlier question, I was gone for a while and some other covered it nicely. Here's The Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10419.0) I mentioned.

The main reason I'm here though is for this hot item that basically replaces your Zeal bonus. The Karyukai Tea Set (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Karyukai%20Tea %20Set) is said item. As a charisma focused class with a decent potential for diplomacy, you should be able to reasonably hit the Greater Heroism roll by the time you can easily afford it. The gist is that it seems to grant your party Greater Heroism for 12 hours. It could be argued the other way, but since it's basically never going to receive errata, Paizo won't rule on it.

I do not understand the argument for this lasting all day. It specifically says it casts heroism/greater heroism on those who drink it. It does not say it lasts for 12 hours. Each affect seems to overlay each other. The only CL information you receive is CL:11 for creation which is not particularly clear but it's the only CL given. As written, I would say the 1st effect is 12 hours and the rest are based on CL 11. You could argue that the CL should be based on the CL of the person administering the tea as well I suppose. But, assuming 11th, then I would say heroism for 110 minutes and Greater for 11. Still very useful in a party able to create temporary safe havens in order to prep for battle.

[shawshank]

As to the guide. Again, I really like it but my mind is not changed about some of your rulings. I will just agree to disagree. Great guide overall.

[Mithril Leaf]

I do not understand the argument for this lasting all day. It specifically says it casts heroism/greater heroism on those who drink it. It does not say it lasts for 12 hours. Each affect seems to overlay each other. The only CL information you receive is CL:11 for creation which is not particularly clear but it's the only CL given. As written, I would say the 1st effect is 12 hours and the rest are based on CL 11. You could argue that the CL should be based on the CL of the person administering the tea as well I suppose. But, assuming 11th, then I would say heroism for 110 minutes and Greater for 11. Still very useful in a party able to create temporary safe havens in order to prep for battle.

It very much does not even a little specifically say it casts Heroism/Greater Heroism.

10 or less: No effect.
11–15: The drinker gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against poison and fear effects for 12 hours.
16–20: As above, and the drinker receives the benefits of neutralize poison and remove disease.
21–25: As above, and the drinker receives the benefits of heroism.
26 or more: As above, but the drinker receives the benefits of greater heroism instead of heroism.
The general idea behind the 12 hour interpretation is two-fold. One is that it would be utterly useless as an 11 minute duration due to the fact that it takes a full hour to produce. The second is the more important bit, which is how the bonus is phrased.
The 11-15 bonus sets the precedent for the following bonuses, and it is stated to provide a benefit (the +4 Morale Bonus) for a duration (of 12 hours). Thus while each subsequent bonus adds to the benefit, it does nothing to change the duration. If they wanted it to cast the spell on you, there is language used in other places to describe items that do such a thing. Such as the scabbard of Keen Edges that calls out it casts Keen Edge on command.

[shawshank]

Well it isn't useless at all. I 100% disagree with you there. I believe the buff to be excellent with an 11 minute and 110 minute duration. So, as before, I will agree to disagree.

[Mithril Leaf]

Well it isn't useless at all. I 100% disagree with you there. I believe the buff to be excellent with an 11 minute and 110 minute duration. So, as before, I will agree to disagree.

Please if you would, explain to me the utility of an 11 minute buff with a one hour casting time. I'll agree on the Heroism, as that's nearly another 2 hours.

[exelsisxax]

Please if you would, explain to me the utility of an 11 minute buff with a one hour casting time. I'll agree on the Heroism, as that's nearly another 2 hours.

Invite your nemeses to tea? 11 minutes should be plenty of time.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Prestige Classes) Added Landsknecht
(Equipment) Added Karyukai Tea Set
(Sample Builds) Added Dread Captain Alexandra! She's a durable firearms Zealot who focuses on debuffing enemies with ranged strikes and intimidation, and buffing allies with Golden Lion and bardic performance, while having a huge number of skill points and class skills!
(Sample Builds) Added Nelly Nephilim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21556361&postcount=89), written by upho! She's an EXTREMELY powerful AoO Zealot with peerless crowd control!

@Mithral Leaf, thanks for the tasty tea, as well as the shuriken enchanting guide :smallsmile:

[Elricaltovilla]

Castilonium: It's worth noting that Ego-Wounding Strike is not sickened or shaken, which means that it stacks with those effects and made no-save by expending psionic focus. Getting both sickened and shaken on your attack is not terribly difficult so a combination of the three effects nets a -6 penalty (at least) to d20 rolls off of a single attack. Might be worth reconsidering your rating.

[Castilonium]

Castilonium: It's worth noting that Ego-Wounding Strike is not sickened or shaken, which means that it stacks with those effects and made no-save by expending psionic focus. Getting both sickened and shaken on your attack is not terribly difficult so a combination of the three effects nets a -6 penalty (at least) to d20 rolls off of a single attack. Might be worth reconsidering your rating.

Yes, Ego-Wounding Strike stacks with sickened and shaken. But it's also a 1st level strike and is mind-affecting. 1st and 2nd level in Pathfinder are notoriously rocket taggy, so enemies often die in one or two hits, and the ones that don't are usually undead or constructs like zombies or mithral cobras. Even if your target survives being hit by this strike and attacks on its turn, it's only 10% more likely to miss. You're highly unlikely to have the ability to apply sickened, shaken, and Ego-Wounding Strike all on the same target at levels 1 and 2 without it dying. Also, Harmony-Shattering Strike is in the same discipline and level, and it's way better suited to level 1 and 2 play, as it helps your party kill your targets more quickly and isn't mind-affecting.

Since Zealots can easily refresh their maneuvers round after round, they're likely going to use their highest level strikes every round, so no Zealot would ever use Ego-Wounding Strike anymore once they reach level 3 when they could use something like Two-Fold Assault, Call to Action, Pyrite Strike, etc. Using lower level strikes is something that other classes with worse maneuver refresh mechanics do.

So in summary, Ego-Wounding Strike is red because:
Enemies die too fast at levels 1 and 2,
-2 attack isn't good enough,
Mind-affecting can be a problem,
It's obsolete when a Zealot reaches level 3 because Zealots refresh their best strike every round,
Harmony-Shattering Strike is better at levels 1 and 2, and scales better,
It wounded my ego and I have a vendetta :smalltongue:

If its penalty applied to saving throws, or if your GM houserules that enemies have more HP than in normal Pathfinder games, then I would rate this higher. I appreciate your feedback a lot, Elric :smallsmile:

[upho]

Just wanted to say I finally found the time to describe at least some of Nelly Nephilim's complex higher level mechanics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21556450&postcount=91). I'll complement these with a summary of the build goals and Nelly's intended combat role(s) later on. But please feel free to poke holes and correct me if anything I've written so far seems off! And as always, critique/praise/comments/questions/suggestions are most appreciated.

[khadgar567]

Just wanted to say I finally found the time to describe at least some of Nelly Nephilim's complex higher level mechanics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21556450&postcount=91). I'll complement these with a summary of the build goals and Nelly's intended combat role(s) later on. But please feel free to poke holes and correct me if anything I've written so far seems off! And as always, critique/praise/comments/questions/suggestions are most appreciated.

so nelly basicly casts transform barry allen and goes ham with the enemy team all by f ing her self. Congrats upho and castoium you basicly break the f ing game 1 turn kill by nelly the f ing nephalim .

[exelsisxax]

Just wanted to say I finally found the time to describe at least some of Nelly Nephilim's complex higher level mechanics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21556450&postcount=91). I'll complement these with a summary of the build goals and Nelly's intended combat role(s) later on. But please feel free to poke holes and correct me if anything I've written so far seems off! And as always, critique/praise/comments/questions/suggestions are most appreciated.

I really don't understand how this is getting pulled off.

5.2 move action from break the hourglass: 1. How are you aiding and recovering focus with a move action? Is there a conviction or something that I don't know about?(Edit: hypercognitive focus, AB 6) 2. using aid another is not a legal action. Break the hourglass requires both actions to effect the originator of the source the counter was used in response to.

edit: also-

By forcing your will upon the quintessence of the universe and acting within pockets of time so small that blink past within the gap between seconds, you turn time on its end and react to an opponent’s actions before they have even been made. You can initiate this counter in response to being targeted or caught within the area of an attack or effect. You can immediately take a standard action and a move action (or a single full-round action by combining them) before that effect resolves. While taking these actions, you can only attack or otherwise affect the originator of the attack or effect. If you reduce the originator of the attack or effect to 0 or fewer hit points with these actions, then the attack or effect (including parts of the effect that affect other creatures) is completely negated, having been prevented from happening at all. You cannot gain more than one standard action and move action per round this way.

5.7 free: What is dazzling gambit? I also want to intimidate as a free action, but I can't find that ability.

5.9 free(and loop): how are shield slam or buckler bash providing a benefit? buckler bash allows you to replace a bash with an unarmed strike for any maneuvers that require one. It doesn't make unarmed count as bashes, so you shouldn't be getting a shield slam. There isn't a working loop here.

Everything onward: relies on the focus you shouldn't have and the loop you can't complete. I don't think this works.

[Mithril Leaf]

I really don't understand how this is getting pulled off.
1. How are you aiding and recovering focus with a move action? Is there a conviction or something that I don't know about?


Hypercognitive Focus (Ex): At 6th level, an awakened blade’s mind is able to anticipate his needs and subconsciously works to further his effectiveness. Whenever the character recovers one or more maneuvers, he may regain psionic focus as a free action as part of his maneuver recovery.
He may only do this one time in a given round. Alternately, the character may expend his psionic focus when manifesting a psionic power and recover an expended maneuver.

There you go friend. Seems to be in order for that bit at least.

[upho]

2. using aid another is not a legal action. Break the hourglass requires both actions to effect the originator of the source the counter was used in response to.Hmm... I always read this as "you may not attack anyone besides the attacker", but now I see you'd be correct strictly according to RAW. But personally, I find it hard to believe this is RAI, because as currently written, the maneuver doesn't even allow you to move closer to the attacker and then attack, since your move doesn't directly affect the attacker. Weird. I'll ask in the FAQ thread.

And you're right regarding the 1/round limitation. I'll edit.


5.7 free: What is dazzling gambit? I also want to intimidate as a free action, but I can't find that ability.It's a privateer ploy which Nelly picks at 3rd level. Here you go:
"Dazzling Gambit: Whenever the privateer succeeds on a gambit, he can make an Intimidate check to demoralize all opponents within 30 feet as a free action, even if it isn’t his turn." (Copied from the PoW:E PDF, can't provide a link ATM because d20pfsrd.com is down.)

Now get out there and dazzle! :smalltongue:


5.9 free(and loop): how are shield slam or buckler bash providing a benefit? buckler bash allows you to replace a bash with an unarmed strike for any maneuvers that require one. It doesn't make unarmed count as bashes, so you shouldn't be getting a shield slam. There isn't a working loop here.This is one of the combos I was hoping to explain in the "Basic Tactics" section I haven't finished yet. First, Nelly never makes unarmed strikes at this level, she makes gauntlet/fiend's grip attacks which do also count as bashes. Second, this combo includes quite a few more components than Buckler Bash and Shield Slam, and Nelly only needs the US-replacing benefit of Buckler Bash once (for the third and final attack of Thrashing Dragon Twist):

1. Shielding Fist (my emphasis): "At 1st level, so long as the monk of the silver fist is wearing gauntlets, he gains a +1 shield bonus to his AC, and treats his gauntlets as bucklers in addition to their normal effects. If is gauntlets are enchanted, he applies their enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls and to this shield bonus as well."
2. Buckler Bash "You may make shield bash attacks with a buckler as though it was a light shield." (Note also that this is on the Monk of the Silver Fist's list of bonus feats.)
3. Improved Shield Bash "When you perform a shield bash, you may still apply the shield’s shield bonus to your AC." (Note also that this is on the Monk of the Silver Fist's list of bonus feats.)
4. TWF
5. Shield Slam "Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Chapter 8). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity."
EDIT: 6. Gauntlet Strike "For the purposes of the monk of the silver fist’s abilities and feats, a gauntlet is any weapon worn over the hands or fingers to aid in punching, including brass knuckles, normal gauntlets, rope gauntlets, and spiked gauntlets."
7. Fiend's Grip "A fiend’s grip is treated as a spiked gauntlet for the purposes Weapon Focus, being discipline weapon for a discipline, and similar feats and abilities." /EDIT

I hope this makes it more clear.


Everything onward: relies on the focus you shouldn't have and the loop you can't complete. I don't think this works.Nelly needs to use her Clairsentient Counter (AB 6) instead of Break the hourglass in order to interrupt the balor lord's AoO with Thrashing Dragon Twist, and my suspicions on the RAI of Break the hourglass needs to be correct, but otherwise I believe it should work fine.

Thanks a lot!

[exelsisxax]

Hmm... I always read this as "you may not attack anyone besides the attacker", but now I see you'd be correct strictly according to RAW. But personally, I find it hard to believe this is RAI, because as currently written, the maneuver doesn't even allow you to move closer to the attacker and then attack, since your move doesn't directly affect the attacker. Weird. I'll ask in the FAQ thread.

And you're right regarding the 1/round limitation. I'll edit.
I think RAI is "all effects must target the originator" rather than "all actions must target the originator". Moving is fine, but buffing yourself doesn't seem like it should work. Buffing your allies is obviously against RAI, and plenty of other DSP interactions revolve around yourself being an ally.


It's a privateer ploy which Nelly picks at 3rd level. Here you go:
"Dazzling Gambit: Whenever the privateer succeeds on a gambit, he can make an Intimidate check to demoralize all opponents within 30 feet as a free action, even if it isn’t his turn." (Copied from the PoW:E PDF, can't provide a link ATM because d20pfsrd.com is down.)

Now get out there and dazzle! :smalltongue:
Ah, locked behind class requirements unfortunately.


This is one of the combos I was hoping to explain in the "Basic Tactics" section I haven't finished yet. First, Nelly never makes unarmed strikes at this level, she makes gauntlet/fiend's grip attacks which do also count as bashes. Second, this combo includes quite a few more components than Buckler Bash and Shield Slam, and Nelly only needs the US-replacing benefit of Buckler Bash once (for the third and final attack of Thrashing Dragon Twist):

1. Shielding Fist (my emphasis): "At 1st level, so long as the monk of the silver fist is wearing gauntlets, he gains a +1 shield bonus to his AC, and treats his gauntlets as bucklers in addition to their normal effects. If is gauntlets are enchanted, he applies their enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls and to this shield bonus as well."
2. Buckler Bash "You may make shield bash attacks with a buckler as though it was a light shield." (Note also that this is on the Monk of the Silver Fist's list of bonus feats.)
3. Improved Shield Bash "When you perform a shield bash, you may still apply the shield’s shield bonus to your AC." (Note also that this is on the Monk of the Silver Fist's list of bonus feats.)
4. TWF
5. Shield Slam "Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Chapter 8). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity."
EDIT: 6. Gauntlet Strike "For the purposes of the monk of the silver fist’s abilities and feats, a gauntlet is any weapon worn over the hands or fingers to aid in punching, including brass knuckles, normal gauntlets, rope gauntlets, and spiked gauntlets."
7. Fiend's Grip "A fiend’s grip is treated as a spiked gauntlet for the purposes Weapon Focus, being discipline weapon for a discipline, and similar feats and abilities." /EDIT

I hope this makes it more clear.

Nelly needs to use her Clairsentient Counter (AB 6) instead of Break the hourglass in order to interrupt the balor lord's AoO with Thrashing Dragon Twist, and my suspicions on the RAI of Break the hourglass needs to be correct, but otherwise I believe it should work fine.

Thanks a lot!
Shielding fist was the piece of the puzzle I was missing. But, I do not believe you are correct in your use of stance of the thunderbrand. We're switching sides on RAI now, because DSP obviously don't mean for the infinite AoO loop, despite it not explicitly limiting it. RAI is probably "any movement action taken by threatened opponents" rather than "all movement of threatened opponents"

Despite all that, holy crap hamburger pazuzu.

[jff362]

Thanks for a super useful, super thorough guide!

Just one note, you say, "Unshakable Will*: Why do we get this so late? By the time we have this, we’re already automatically succeeding on Aid Another checks."

...but (without this ability) everyone fails these on a 1. You may already know this but in case it's helpful to one of your readers,
Aid Another says "You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn."

...and Attack Roll says "A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss."

(Is removing a 5% fail chance an exciting ability? No, but I still appreciate it as in this case those occasional 1's can suck.)

[upho]

I think RAI is "all effects must target the originator" rather than "all actions must target the originator". Moving is fine, but buffing yourself doesn't seem like it should work. Buffing your allies is obviously against RAI, and plenty of other DSP interactions revolve around yourself being an ally.Yeah, that may be the case, although I suspect there may be fuzzy stuff lurking here as well (what exactly is an "effect"?). But since we don't know I'm gonna have to go with the RAW for now, so the move will effectively be wasted.


Ah, locked behind class requirements unfortunately.Yep, although it's probably the best 1-level dip in the game for any melee and/or gun toting build. The amount of freebies you get is simply astounding.


Shielding fist was the piece of the puzzle I was missing. But, I do not believe you are correct in your use of stance of the thunderbrand. We're switching sides on RAI now, because DSP obviously don't mean for the infinite AoO loop, despite it not explicitly limiting it. RAI is probably "any movement action taken by threatened opponents" rather than "all movement of threatened opponents"It's unfortunate that PF doesn't have the game term "forced movement". But regarding the RAI of AoO-looping, please note that you can do this using only Paizo options as well (through for example the Siegebreaker fighter) - it may be somewhat more limited, mostly since the number of AoOs you can make are likely to be more limited, but the same basic mechanic of "melee hit -> free combat maneuver(s) -> target provokes AoO -> repeat" is fully possible. Considering the tons of highly specific investments the combo requires, and the fact an enemy initiator of equal level can usually easily break the combo, I honestly don't think it's even close to OP. Nelly simply optimizes the crap out of the combo, pouring easily more than half of the build resources into it, and that is the reason why it's so powerful.


Despite all that, holy crap hamburger pazuzu.:smallbiggrin:
But honestly, even before 20th level plenty of damage focused builds, including some Paizo-only ones, would be capable of easily taking Pazuzu out of the fight before he gets to act (he only has 752 hp, easily bypassed DR and initiative +13, after all). I think the big advantage of Nelly's debuff method is that Pazuzu isn't simply reborn in his layer, but remains alive and can be captured. Not to mention that Nelly also gives the three balor lords only two options: immediately teleport out or die.

That said, one should keep in mind all the demon lords are quite a bit easier when faced outside their own layers (although that hardly matters in this particular case).

[Castilonium]

Thanks for a super useful, super thorough guide!

Just one note, you say, "Unshakable Will*: Why do we get this so late? By the time we have this, we’re already automatically succeeding on Aid Another checks."

...but (without this ability) everyone fails these on a 1. You may already know this but in case it's helpful to one of your readers,
Aid Another says "You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn."

...and Attack Roll says "A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss."

(Is removing a 5% fail chance an exciting ability? No, but I still appreciate it as in this case those occasional 1's can suck.)

That's a gooooooooood point. I have some friends who froth with rage whenever they roll a nat 1. Thanks for the catch! Updated.

I'm glad you like the guide :smallsmile:

[Mithril Leaf]

So it's not of total relevance to the guide specifically, but I just wanted to mention that any half Wilder Awakened Blades will want to use *mumble*'s Prophetic Song. Featured in Psionics Augmented: Wilder, it grants an excellently scaling insight bonus to most things.

[upho]

So it's not of total relevance to the guide specifically, but I just wanted to mention that any half Wilder Awakened Blades will want to use *mumble*'s Prophetic Song. Featured in Psionics Augmented: Wilder, it grants an excellently scaling insight bonus to most things.Did you say euterpe’s prophetic song (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ulzchuit7aJB40SMZb6UNbEWUmDiRGzc6xiGp7FXxCs/edit)? If so, I don't really see how, because unless you're able to freely choose the exact moment to enter combat, the standard action manifestation and concentration duration makes it very clunky to use in combat for a zealot/wilder/AB, despite the additional "free" 3 rounds granted by surge (and the insight bonuses don't stack with your Stance of the Inner Eye). Unless I'm missing something, I think there are several much better uses of your standard actions once you hit a level high enough to have the PP needed to make this power competitive, bonus-wise.

Seems great for a less frontliner-y buff focused wilder based build though.


@ Castilonium I like your PrC write-ups and ratings, but I think your final ruling of AB is slightly off. You normally only get the sun, the moon and the kitchen sink for free, but I think you have to be VIP customer who writes class guides in order to get the complementary bouquet of roses, and if you post your AB build here on the GitPG forums, you get a magnum *hiccups* bottle of damn fine Louis Roederer Prestige Cristal champagne to go with your psionic crystals... :smallwink:

More seriously though, I think the AB's entry requirements could be rated red, mostly due to the many and usually mostly wasted skill points and the completely redundant powers you have to keep. Not that it changes the overall rating from ultra-purple, but...

--------------

Speaking of the AB, I think I've finally got RAW legal descriptions of Nelly's basic combos and example opening round (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21556450&postcount=91) in place. Input and hole-poking most appreciated!

Hmm... Maybe I should export Nelly to a google doc for better overview?

[exelsisxax]

Hole poking engaged, then!

5.1: You cannot Echo a 9th level maneuver.

When the zealot initiates a maneuver at least one level below his maximum maneuver level known, he can spend 1 power point per maneuver level to grant a member of his collective the ability to initiate that maneuver one time within 1 minute or until the zealot chooses to recover the maneuver.
5.2 What do you mean, can't use that action? Hustle+echo or metapsionic mastery+ hustle. If nothing else you can just energy bolt something in the face, especially if you take it later on after you refocus. Not like you need it or it matters compared to everything else going on though.

[upho]

Hole poking engaged, then!Yay!


5.1: You cannot Echo a 9th level maneuver.Crap. Why do I always seem to forget some pesky detail I'm actually fully aware of? :smallsigh:

I'll edit again.


5.2 What do you mean, can't use that action? Hustle+echo or metapsionic mastery+ hustle. If nothing else you can just energy bolt something in the face, especially if you take it later on after you refocus. Not like you need it or it matters compared to everything else going on though.I mean specifically that Nelly can't use the move for anything constructive in this particular situation. Even if we assume that using the move for moving is legal according to RAW, she doesn't gain anything by doing so, but would provoke AoOs from Pazuzu and Midbal. And while draining them of AoOs for the round may not be a bad idea per se (since Nelly's AC happens to make her nigh immune to the attacks), she still risks having to deal with a crit for a highly redundant gain in this case. Do you think this might be confusing without further clarification?

Did you have a look at the "Basic Combos" as well? If not, I would be very grateful if you could engage your excellent hole-poking for that section as well!

[Mithril Leaf]

Did you say euterpe’s prophetic song (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ulzchuit7aJB40SMZb6UNbEWUmDiRGzc6xiGp7FXxCs/edit)? If so, I don't really see how, because unless you're able to freely choose the exact moment to enter combat, the standard action manifestation and concentration duration makes it very clunky to use in combat for a zealot/wilder/AB, despite the additional "free" 3 rounds granted by surge (and the insight bonuses don't stack with your Stance of the Inner Eye). Unless I'm missing something, I think there are several much better uses of your standard actions once you hit a level high enough to have the PP needed to make this power competitive, bonus-wise.

Seems great for a less frontliner-y buff focused wilder based build though.

Oh yeah totally, I just kinda wanted to mention it because I love it and Solicit Psicrystal exists. It's more full Wilder, but if we're already taking wilder levels and being buff heavy, it's way better than say, Bardic Performance. If you can hit ML 17 (1 level of Wilder and a trait gets you to 14, Orange Prism gives you 15) then it's a +9 bonus to near everything.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Discplines & Maneuvers) Unquiet Grave, the discipline from Lords of the Night, complete! :xykon:
(Prestige Classes) Added Phoenix Champion
Adjusted ratings throughout the guide.

@Mithral Leaf, wow, the bonus scales by 1 per 2 power points!? That does seem kinda bonkers with Solicit Psicrystal. But you definitely would need to do something about the action economy and lack of full caster level from not being a pure Wilder. Honestly, I'm not sure how much I should include powers in the guide, since only one particular prestige class build for Zealots uses them. Sure, it's probably the best prestige class in the game for Zealots, but still.

@upho, I've never seen anybody so thoroughly write out and explain a build in such tremendous complete exhaustive detail! :smalleek: All of your work is hugely appreciated! I think you might deserve TWO whole Cristal champagnes! :smallbiggrin:

I scoured and scanned Nelly's basic combos, and after all the other corrections you've made like not being able to use Break the Hourglass more than once per round, I don't notice any more holes to poke. Awesome job!

[khadgar567]

@Castilonium I know its early but did you consider looking into spheres of might for your handbook it have whole sphere to grab discipline weapons and base athletics sphere can make zealot good at reaching opponents then dishing ridiculous damage quite easy

[Lord_Gareth]

@Castilonium I know its early but did you consider looking into spheres of might for your handbook it have whole sphere to grab discipline weapons and base athletics sphere can make zealot good at reaching opponents then dishing ridiculous damage quite easy

Did we not already have this discussion about why you don't propose crossing 3pp subsystems in this manner during a guide? I distinctly remember the thread having this conversation at considerable length.

[Powerdork]

@Castilonium I know its early but did you consider looking into spheres of might for your handbook it have whole sphere to grab discipline weapons and base athletics sphere can make zealot good at reaching opponents then dishing ridiculous damage quite easy


Did we not already have this discussion about why you don't propose crossing 3pp subsystems in this manner during a guide? I distinctly remember the thread having this conversation at considerable length.

Indeed, it goes from post 28 to post 44 (17 posts total), where it's put to rest, then friend Khadgar brings it up again in post 46, "stirring some nitroglycerin" as it was so nicely put, having an exchange with Forrestfire out to post 51 (6 posts total). Posts 53-55 (+3) also contain some choice related content.
The thread had just dropped back below 20% posts about crossing the streams, but Khadgar, your latest post, by the numbers, bumped it back over, to 20.45%. If you're that passionate about it, perhaps you might write your own guide for Spheres of Might initiators and post a thread for it. It's been decided (with your involvement) that this is not the thread for it.

[Elricaltovilla]

Castilonium, I vaguely recall that we (the PoW guys) ended up deciding something about the maneuver swapping (4th level and every even level thingy) that allowed it to continue working even while you multiclassed out or were in a Prestige Class. I can't remember where we wrote it down, so I might be completely wrong, but I'll dig through some threads and see if I can't find it. Hopefully someone else can help with the legwork?

[Mithril Leaf]

@Mithral Leaf, wow, the bonus scales by 1 per 2 power points!? That does seem kinda bonkers with Solicit Psicrystal. But you definitely would need to do something about the action economy and lack of full caster level from not being a pure Wilder. Honestly, I'm not sure how much I should include powers in the guide, since only one particular prestige class build for Zealots uses them. Sure, it's probably the best prestige class in the game for Zealots, but still.


Oh I actually quite agree it probably shouldn't go in the guide. But as part of the "expanded material" of the thread it's decent info. Much like the fact that technically you can take the good FCB on an Aasimar while still being large via a silly RAW interaction.

I really should make a small tips and tricks thread though...

[Castilonium]

Castilonium, I vaguely recall that we (the PoW guys) ended up deciding something about the maneuver swapping (4th level and every even level thingy) that allowed it to continue working even while you multiclassed out or were in a Prestige Class. I can't remember where we wrote it down, so I might be completely wrong, but I'll dig through some threads and see if I can't find it. Hopefully someone else can help with the legwork?

Oh? If you can find it, that would be awesome! It seems that the prestige classes in the first PoW book all say that you exchange an old maneuver at class levels 2, 5, and 8, but the prestige classes in PoW:Expanded do not say anything at all about exchanging old maneuvers.

[Forrestfire]

Oh? If you can find it, that would be awesome! It seems that the prestige classes in the first PoW book all say that you exchange an old maneuver at class levels 2, 5, and 8, but the prestige classes in PoW:Expanded do not say anything at all about exchanging old maneuvers.

If you look in the zealot class, it says that at level 4 and then every 2 initiator levels after that, you get a swap.

[ATalsen]

If you look in the zealot class, it says that at level 4 and then every 2 initiator levels after that, you get a swap.

All the classes (and class templates) from POW: Expanded have this text, and all the PrCs from Expanded fail to give maneuver swaps. What I recall from the posts about it was that this new setup was supposed to be the new paradigm going forward. I’m assuming that when the errata for POW1 come out, the old classes and PrCs will be updated to this new format.

I’m not fond of this new wording because it’s very ambiguous and if read one way it doesn’t allow swaps like the PrC classes used to.

Specifically the text is:

“Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even numbered initiator level thereafter (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), the zealot can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one he already knows.”

The normal assumed interpretation when a class feature mentions “level” and doesn’t specify what kind of level, they mean CLASS level, so the text would read this:

Upon reaching 4th CLASS level, and at every even numbered initiator level thereafter (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on),

And that mixes 2 different types of levels in the same sentence, using one for acquiring the ability and the other from progressing it, which is confusing at best.

This interpretation means that if you don’t get to 4th level in the class, you never get any swaps. So a “Standard Base Class 4 / POW:E Base Class 1 / PoW:E Prestige Class X” type build never gains any swaps because the POW:E Base Class never gets to 4th level.

That is obviously strictly inferior compared to how the Prestige Classes used to provide swaps.

There’s also the problem, with 4th level not *being* an even initiator level for some PCs. Fighter 2 / Zealot 4 is a Zealot initiator level of 5, for example. So if Zealot 4 was their last class taken, do they get a swap or not.

If we assume that it’s this instead:

“Upon reaching 4th INITIATOR level, and at every even numbered initiator level thereafter (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on),”

This interpretation would grant swaps purely based in IL, and that works much better, but we have to go against the basic assumption the class feature is talking about class levels to do that.

So which of these is the right interpretation? Maybe DSP will clarify this when they start working on errata.


If you want to note something in your guide, you can note that there may be differing interpretations of when Zealot gains its swaps, and if it has to have 4 zealot levels or just 4 initiator levels to start gaining swaps.

This gets a bit odder when you work in POW1 PrCs with the Zealot, currently, because the POW1 PrCs still grant swaps. I’d guess I’d recommend picking one swap method and using it instead of getting double swaps.

[upho]

@upho, I've never seen anybody so thoroughly write out and explain a build in such tremendous complete exhaustive detail! :smalleek:Well, there's a good reason for the exhaustive detail. I've already received PMs from five people asking questions on how Nelly works. And last weekend I got a chance to take her for a spin in a real game (at 18th level), and let me tell you, the tons and tons of fiddly details to remember and the bookkeeping required to play Nelly is unfortunately probably the worst I've ever encountered in PF.

She was still a blast to play though.


All of your work is hugely appreciated! I think you might deserve TWO whole Cristal champagnes! :smallbiggrin:No. Because then what would we have to give the guy who just wrote 153 friggin' pages of awesomeness on the zealot? :smalleek:

Seriously, you've done a truly great job here, and a tremendous amount of it as well!


I scoured and scanned Nelly's basic combos, and after all the other corrections you've made like not being able to use Break the Hourglass more than once per round, I don't notice any more holes to poke. Awesome job!Thanks! I think she's finally free of errors now.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Fool's Errand (playtest) complete!
(Style Feats) Added Fool's Errand Style
(Prestige Classes) Added a paragraph at the beginning warning players of the unclear maneuver swapping progression. Also changed "Maneuvers" ratings under the prestige classes for the various interpretations.

@ATalsen
Yeah, I'm pretty confused as well, for all the reasons you mentioned. Also, if we go with the interpretation that PoW base classes get a swap every 4 ILs, then taking prestige classes from the first PoW book will actually give you MORE total swaps than if you had gone straight to level 20 with the base class.

@upho
Awwww shucks, flatterer ♥
Glad to hear you had fun completely wrecking whatever your GM threw at Nelly :smalltongue: By the way, if you have a teammate who has Woedrinker (Cursed Razor 7), then you can pick up The Sincerest Form of Flattery (Fool's Errand 4) on Nelly to use it too! Or maybe you can squeeze in Advanced Study somehow to pick up Proof of Victory (Fool's Errand 9). Maybe with some +1 training armor spikes. Gently curse your friends at the start of the day with a 1st level maneuver you got from your Fiendbound Marauder Warder level, like Guard's Oath.

[Elricaltovilla]

You should review the rest of my discipline synergy feats. I worked so very hard on them.:smalltongue:

[upho]

(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Fool's Errand (playtest) complete!My fav! Awesome!


(Prestige Classes) Added a paragraph at the beginning warning players of the unclear maneuver swapping progression. Also changed "Maneuvers" ratings under the prestige classes for the various interpretations.

@ATalsen
Yeah, I'm pretty confused as well, for all the reasons you mentioned. Also, if we go with the interpretation that PoW base classes get a swap every 4 ILs, then taking prestige classes from the first PoW book will actually give you MORE total swaps than if you had gone straight to level 20 with the base class.I also vaguely recall the discussion and decision Elric mentioned, which means ATalsen's last variant would be correct IIRC. So all mentions of "level" in the base classes' swap rules paragraphs should read "initiator level", and PrCs should of course not have any swap rules of their own.

AFAICT, besides clearing up the current base class/PrC and PoW/PoW:E inconsistencies, the only noteworthy effect this has is that you don't lose out on quite as many useful maneuvers in higher levels by choosing to make an initiator class dip during early levels instead of delaying the dip until higher levels. Personally, I think it makes for a much more streamlined and intuitive system which doesn't punish "odd" character concepts as harshly, as it counteracts the IMO overly significant importance of build order which the IL and swapping rules otherwise create (making for example a "fighter 19/warder 1" considerably stronger than a "warder 1/fighter 19").

Assuming a 1-level dip, the swaps occur at character level 7 (IL 4), 11 (IL 6), 15 (IL 8) and 19 (IL 10). Meaning you still pay for an earlier dip with later level overall maneuver power, just not quite as much as in the case of the original PoW swap rules.



@upho
Awwww shucks, flatterer ♥Yep. But you certainly had it coming! :smallbiggrin:



Glad to hear you had fun completely wrecking whatever your GM threw at Nelly :smalltongue:Actually, it got pretty darn close to the opposite. The GM had a good grasp of the party's strength and had designed the opposition accordingly, and he really played the enemies convincingly and to the very limits of their abilities. After an easy first fight and some hilarious and unexpectedly successful infiltration shenanigans, Nelly and her two allies - a small annoying pompous imp tiefling eldritch archer magus/spellslinger wizard/myrmidon trench fighter(?)/bladecaster and some kind of weird steampunk-ish pew-pew cleric/homebrew PrC(?) - got a bit over-confident and made some bold but rash decisions... Which resulted in, well, a "not exactly planned" run-in with a very large group of powerful enemies in "less than ideal" circumstances... :smallredface:

And against these well-prepared, disciplined and well-coordinated high CR opponents, many of which had plenty of high level maneuvers/spells/powers, Nelly wasn't nearly as impressive as she may seem two levels later in the example round against Pazuzu. This turned out to be true also in the final very tough fight against three fiendish great wyrms and their equally demonic rune giant gish master. I think Nelly was only a few hit points from death during three out of a total of five rounds, and the cleric was knocked far into the negatives after the dragons had a string of very lucky rolls. We managed to win, but just barely. (After the fight was finally over, even the little damn imp with grandiose personality disorder tiefling was so spent he had to rest at least 10 seconds before he proclaimed the victory had finally completed his "ascent to godhood", and a it took a whole minute before he declared Nelly his "High Exarch and First Carrier of Heavy Divine Treasure"... :smallamused:)

From this somewhat humbling experience, I can only confirm what many people wiser than me have already said many times before: a) unsurprisingly, Dirty Trick Master and Soulless Gaze can really make huge differences in melee combat effectiveness (boy did I miss those two), b) initiative is darn important in high level fights, c) a great build cannot replace great tactics, and d) anything a PC can do, an enemy might also be able to do (which in this case primarily means "great numbers and excellent action economy" doesn't necessarily translate into "greater and more excellent than those of the enemy").



By the way, if you have a teammate who has Woedrinker (Cursed Razor 7), then you can pick up The Sincerest Form of Flattery (Fool's Errand 4) on Nelly to use it too! Or maybe you can squeeze in Advanced Study somehow to pick up Proof of Victory (Fool's Errand 9). Maybe with some +1 training armor spikes.That would've been great, but unfortunately I think the wording of Training Weapon makes it impossible to use with armor spikes, since it specifically says (my emphasis):

"... as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand..."

I very much suspect the language was intentional, specifically in order to prevent gaining multiple feats for little cost by both holding and wearing several training weapons. And I think Nelly already has as many legal "slots" for the training magic weapon ability as she possibly could have with her four "slots" which all apply to her fiend's grips (the weapons "in hand").


Gently curse your friends at the start of the day with a 1st level maneuver you got from your Fiendbound Marauder Warder level, like Guard's Oath.I must say I find the whole "curse allies for Woedrinker bonuses"-trick a bit too cheesy even for my tastes, since it typically requires you to go from being "helpful" to being "hostile" towards your (former) allies, use the maneuver, and then to immediately flip back your disposition to "helpful", all within a few seconds and all for no sane reason. Or insane reason for that matter, 'cause even if I were to play say a character suffering from severe schizophrenia or some kind of weird serious psychosis popping up intermittently in seconds-long bursts, I think the convenient timing of my madness alone would simply break even my otherwise notoriously unshakable suspension of disbelief... :smallfrown:

And I also don't really see any mechanical balance reason for hand-waving of the implications of such a highly questionable use in order to boost the maneuver. I mean, Woedrinker can be really good regardless of whether it can be powered by cursed allies or not.

But maybe I'm missing something obvious here. What would you say if you were to convince me as a GM that this is a completely reasonable and believable use of Woedrinker?

[exelsisxax]

Has anyone posted in the DSP FAQ thread about the maneuver replacement issue yet, or found the answer somewhere already? an officially unofficial errata on the subject would be nice.

EDIT: it does bring up the weirdness with PoW PrCs again though. Since no PoW:E PrC includes maneuver replacement clauses, can the maneuvers learned from them be replaced through anything other than downtime retraining? Because DSP still hasn't clairified if the PrCs are hard-linked to a base class and share resource progression, therefore allowing maneuver replacement. As it stands, all PrCs count as a full initiator level to any and all initiating classes.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(PoW & Expanded feats) Added Elemental Current
(PoW & Expanded feats) Added Elemental Focus
(PoW & Expanded feats) Added Elemental Sun
(PoW & Expanded feats) Added Flowing Mithral Fist
(PoW & Expanded feats) Added Molten Silver Strike
(PoW & Expanded feats) Added Quicksilver Grip
(PoW & Expanded feats) Added Silver Fang Initiate
(PoW & Expanded feats) Added Vortex Rush


You should review the rest of my discipline synergy feats. I worked so very hard on them.:smalltongue:
Done :smallsmile:


That would've been great, but unfortunately I think the wording of Training Weapon makes it impossible to use with armor spikes, since it specifically says (my emphasis):

"... as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand..."

I very much suspect the language was intentional, specifically in order to prevent gaining multiple feats for little cost by both holding and wearing several training weapons. And I think Nelly already has as many legal "slots" for the training magic weapon ability as she possibly could have with her four "slots" which all apply to her fiend's grips (the weapons "in hand").
Looks like you're right. But in Nelly's equipment list, she has +1 cruel training (Improved Initiative) body wrap of mighty strikes. Body wraps are worn on the body, not in hand, so either it works because it's like that tape boxers wrap around their hands, or I've found a hole to poke in Nelly's build!


I must say I find the whole "curse allies for Woedrinker bonuses"-trick a bit too cheesy even for my tastes, since it typically requires you to go from being "helpful" to being "hostile" towards your (former) allies, use the maneuver, and then to immediately flip back your disposition to "helpful", all within a few seconds and all for no sane reason. Or insane reason for that matter, 'cause even if I were to play say a character suffering from severe schizophrenia or some kind of weird serious psychosis popping up intermittently in seconds-long bursts, I think the convenient timing of my madness alone would simply break even my otherwise notoriously unshakable suspension of disbelief... :smallfrown:

And I also don't really see any mechanical balance reason for hand-waving of the implications of such a highly questionable use in order to boost the maneuver. I mean, Woedrinker can be really good regardless of whether it can be powered by cursed allies or not.

But maybe I'm missing something obvious here. What would you say if you were to convince me as a GM that this is a completely reasonable and believable use of Woedrinker?
Well, let's think about Nelly for a second. She's a large angelic anthropomorphic camel who was adopted by halflings, raised as a LG monk, discovered she was prone to intense bouts of psionic-fueled rage, started growing fiendish claws and chains out of her gauntlets which she was taught to defend others with, joined a pirate crew, switched from LG to NG, became telepathic, started worshiping Sarenrae and learned how to maim people nonlethally with her spooky fiendish clawchains AND learned a style associated with a typically evil discipline at the same time, gained The Force™ to see the immediate future like a jedi, willingly gained the patronage of an evil outsider while still worshiping Sarenrae, and ended up N. (That was a long sentence!)

You already got your GM to accept that character concept, and it doesn't shake your or my ironclad suspensions of disbelief, whereas some people I know would asplode with indignation and say it's too implausible and cheesy. Even taking all that into account, she managed to hook up with a party that trusts her with their lives in dangerous adventuring situations. Her winning personality must go a long way! So really, how much of a further stretch is it to say that she wants to curse allies once a day with a harmless curse in order to feed on and gain power from it? Nelly's been through a lot, and changed alignments twice! You don't need to be psychotic or schizophrenic to have odd quirks.

I can think of several reasons to justify it. Maybe the fiendish powers that gave her her Fiendbound Marauder level or Damnation feats also made her a tad sadomasochistic. Maybe it's a byproduct of suffering so much mental stress from her psionic bouts of rage and clairsentience. Maybe it helps her feel closer to her allies and her protective, orderly, monkish roots. She has incredible charisma, so she wouldn't have any trouble convincing her friends to go along with it. She can spin the daily indulgence as a friendly spar, a religious ritual, a kinky wrestling match, or anything else you can imagine! All she has to do, once a day, is unarmed strike her friends with Guard's Oath and use Protection Mission and Martyrdom to half and transfer the damage to herself so that they don't get hurt. Then for the rest of the day, she can stop for a moment and savor the "curse" she inflicted upon her friends, gaining power and resolve to better protect them like a proper Zealot.

Anyway, I personally would never do this in my games because Woedrinker is ludicrously powerful. I just figured that you'd like it on Nelly as a TO exercise, because she's ludicrously powerful too :smallwink:

[khadgar567]

@Castilonium
you know nelly is quite powerful even with out going full ham on woedrinker and turning genuine big bad of the game at any monument so lets release the throttle from her must gibs kill any one gear and talk about lets say how she survives her evil clone

[upho]

Looks like you're right. But in Nelly's equipment list, she has +1 cruel training (Improved Initiative) body wrap of mighty strikes. Body wraps are worn on the body, not in hand, so either it works because it's like that tape boxers wrap around their hands, or I've found a hole to poke in Nelly's build!As with the Amulet of Mighty Fists, there's a crucial difference to armor spikes: even though these worn items have weapon enchantments, they aren't used to make attacks (the unarmed strikes and natural attacks which the items affect are). Meaning Nelly attacks with weapons "in hand" which count as both natural attacks and spiked gauntlets, and her attacks with her fiend's grips thus receive the benefits of her amulet, wrap and gauntlet enchantments, but not the benefits of any armor spikes she might wear.

Btw, the Angered Weapon from Bloodforge could also have been a prime candidate for armor spikes, but it uses the "in hand" language as well:


An angered weapon improves the bonuses to Strength and Constitution granted by a barbarian’s rage by 2 and prevents the barbarian from being fatigued at the end of a rage so long as the weapon is in hand. It also confers this effect on creatures or other classes that gain a rage ability like that of the barbarian.
Caster level: 8th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, wrath of our fathers*; Market Price: +2 bonus.



Well, let's think about Nelly for a second.

/Amazing summary of Nelly cut for brevity./

You don't need to be psychotic or schizophrenic to have odd quirks.Ha ha! I love it!

But my point here was that in contrast to the Woedrinker trick, all the crazy stuff that currently make up Nelly are fully supported by RAW. And her progression, from her weird race and early career as a pirate to her alignment changes and Sith training, are fully possible in a real game without any need for GM handwaving. This reflects the primary condition and goal I set for Nelly: she should be ludicrously powerful without needing any dubious readings of RAW or any tricks which might not work in practice in a real game. You could say I intended her to be a TO example of PO!


I can think of several reasons to justify it. Maybe the fiendish powers that gave her her Fiendbound Marauder level or Damnation feats also made her a tad sadomasochistic. Maybe it's a byproduct of suffering so much mental stress from her psionic bouts of rage and clairsentience. Maybe it helps her feel closer to her allies and her protective, orderly, monkish roots. She has incredible charisma, so she wouldn't have any trouble convincing her friends to go along with it. She can spin the daily indulgence as a friendly spar, a religious ritual, a kinky wrestling match, or anything else you can imagine! All she has to do, once a day, is unarmed strike her friends with Guard's Oath and use Protection Mission and Martyrdom to half and transfer the damage to herself so that they don't get hurt. Then for the rest of the day, she can stop for a moment and savor the "curse" she inflicted upon her friends, gaining power and resolve to better protect them like a proper Zealot.Hey... I think the sparring idea could actually work with the RAW. I like it! You are a master maker of the finest cheese, sir! :smalltongue:


Anyway, I personally would never do this in my games because Woedrinker is ludicrously powerful. I just figured that you'd like it on Nelly as a TO exercise, because she's ludicrously powerful too :smallwink:I totally agree here. But cheesiness aside, I can't find a way for Nelly to gain the necessary components. But thanks for the tip!


@Castilonium
you know nelly is quite powerful even with out going full ham on woedrinker and turning genuine big bad of the game at any monument so lets release the throttle from her must gibs kill any one gear and talk about lets say how she survives her evil cloneGood point. But I think powerful counters and other immediate actions which can void Nelly's attacks are going to remain more or less cryptonite to her fighting style pretty much regardless of her build details. But this is true for all characters (except perhaps certain powerful full casters or summoners), and having easy access to such cryptonite (counters) is probably the most unique strength of initiators.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Paizo Feats) Now in alphabetical order!
(Traits) Added Battlefield Disciple
(Traits) Now in alphabetical order!
(Base Class Dips) Now in alphabetical order!
(Prestige Classes) Added Mage Hunter
(Sample Builds) Added The Bronze Boar, who focuses on multi-attack strikes to maximize the use of Golden Lion Command!

[upho]

WARNING!

*hears faint rumbling sound as of a gigantic die being rolled, tumbling across a table in an impossible dimension*

DO NOT READ THE BRONZE BOAR EXAMPLE BU-

*hears the rolling die coming to a stop, holds breath for a few seconds, staring at nothing in wide-eyed horror, every muscle tense, before continuing to type*

-ILD IN THE GUIDE! IT WILL DESTROY YOUR MIND! Castilonium is out to annihilate and consume our very souls! The po-

*hears the distant thunder of the die crashing against the table again*

-wer of his Bronze Boar is not of this world, sculpted by a mad genius in RAW cheese from beyond all books, all reas-

*hears the die coming to a sudden stop again, and then babbles incoherently* ...as a swift action to grant all allies within 30 feet 5 temporary... *babbles incoherently*

-on, all time and space. It will show you the game as it really is, the terrifying insignificance of every PC you have ever played. It's attacks will assault you with insights into maddening mechanics play-

*hears the chaotic dance of the die starting yet again*

-er minds were not meant to have, while it's black rubbery tentacles will seize you in its cold wet embrace and strip the RAW truth naked in front of your eyes. The Bronze Bull is incomprehensibly pure, utterly alien and infinite

*hears the die coming to a final stop*

EVILTM.

*suddenly lifts keyboard and smashes it into own face for 1d8 + 2 damage, and starts chanting:*

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthastithoniu R'layehond wgah'nagl fhtagn!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Castilonium Playground wgah'nagl fhtagn!

:smallwink:

[khadgar567]

WARNING!

*hears faint rumbling sound as of a gigantic die being rolled, tumbling across a table in an impossible dimension*

DO NOT READ THE BRONZE BOAR EXAMPLE BU-

*hears the rolling die coming to a stop, holds breath for a few seconds, staring at nothing in wide-eyed horror, every muscle tense, before continuing to type*

-ILD IN THE GUIDE! IT WILL DESTROY YOUR MIND! Castilonium is out to annihilate and consume our very souls! The po-

*hears the distant thunder of the die crashing against the table again*

-wer of his Bronze Boar is not of this world, sculpted by a mad genius in RAW cheese from beyond all books, all reas-

*hears the die coming to a sudden stop again, and then babbles incoherently* ...as a swift action to grant all allies within 30 feet 5 temporary... *babbles incoherently*

-on, all time and space. It will show you the game as it really is, the terrifying insignificance of every PC you have ever played. It's attacks will assault you with insights into maddening mechanics play-

*hears the chaotic dance of the die starting yet again*

-er minds were not meant to have, while it's black rubbery tentacles will seize you in its cold wet embrace and strip the RAW truth naked in front of your eyes. The Bronze Bull is incomprehensibly pure, utterly alien and infinite

*hears the die coming to a final stop*

EVILTM.

*suddenly lifts keyboard and smashes it into own face for 1d8 + 2 damage, and starts chanting:*

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthastithoniu R'layehond wgah'nagl fhtagn!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Castilonium Playground wgah'nagl fhtagn!

:smallwink:
looks like we found nellys sparring partner:)

[upho]

looks like we found nellys sparring partner:)Ha ha! :smallbiggrin:

You're joking, right? You know if we ever would allow Castilonium to bring that... ...thing up to 20th level and put it front of poor Nelly, she'd run away screaming in utter terror! And then she'd start hearing "The Die of Madness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions/#TOC-Confused)" as well... :smalleek:

I mean, it's just a writhing mass of hooves, stingers, tails, tentacles and... horrible stuff. A sentient "thing" made almost entirely of a greater assortment of nasty lethal natural attacks than all of the extant Australian species combined! And that's not even worst part! Because then Castilonium decided give this monstrosity not just a sword, a shield, a spiked armor and Golden Lion Command, but also... *hyperventilates* ...a friggin' boulder helm!

I simply do not have the words to describe the unfathomable depths of this EVILTM.

(Seriously, I simply adore the Bronze Bull. It's completely nuts, of course, but in a hilariously fun way IMO.)

[khadgar567]

Ha ha! :smallbiggrin:

You're joking, right? You know if we ever would allow Castilonium to bring that... ...thing up to 20th level and put it front of poor Nelly, she'd run away screaming in utter terror! And then she'd start hearing "The Die of Madness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions/#TOC-Confused)" as well... :smalleek:

I mean, it's just a writhing mass of hooves, stingers, tails, tentacles and... horrible stuff. A sentient "thing" made almost entirely of a greater assortment of nasty lethal natural attacks than all of the extant Australian species combined! And that's not even worst part! Because then Castilonium decided give this monstrosity not just a sword, a shield, a spiked armor and Golden Lion Command, but also... *hyperventilates* ...a friggin' boulder helm!

I simply do not have the words to describe the unfathomable depths of this EVILTM.

(Seriously, I simply adore the Bronze Bull. It's completely nuts, of course, but in a hilariously fun way IMO.)
@upho and @castoum
can you explain both whipvenger and bulltulhu builds like nelly its kinda hard for new player to gauge the power level plus nelly shows how she becomes this one turn multi gibs kill machine but i cant kinda warp my head on whipvenger(first build by the way) and bulltulhu( nickname for bronze bull)( by the way can bull chan use akashic stuff since he can dip atleast 8 levels to any akashic class)

[Castilonium]

Mwahahahaha! I've driven even the creator of the almighty Nelly Nephilim and Miss Piggy Plentiklaus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21026534&postcount=7) utterly bonkers! :sabine:

Glad you like the Bronze Boar so much :smallbiggrin: The priests of Lamashtu are quite happy with him as well! I also gave him a Barbazu Beard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/barbazu-beard/) for good measure, so he's up to 19 attacks now. I thought about giving him two Sea-Knives (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21026534&postcount=7) and the Flight aegis customization, but I'm not sure if they would interfere with his hooves.

[FabulousChester]

I thought this might be worth pointing out, but there's an archetype for the Monk called 'Scaled Fist" that switches all Wisdom derived abilities to Charisma.

(Sorry if someone else pointed this out, but I didn't see mention of it.)

[upho]

Mwahahahaha! I've driven even the creator of the almighty Nelly Nephilim and Miss Piggy Plentiklaus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21026534&postcount=7) utterly bonkers! :sabine:I'm not bonkers! And I'm not afraid-

*grabs plastic He-Man sword in trembling hands and pokes under bed and into closet, making certain Castilonium or his terrifying Bronze Boar isn't actually hiding there*

-of you!

....

Well OK, maybe I am a little bonkers.... And a little afraid... But just a little!


Glad you like the Bronze Boar so much :smallbiggrin: The priests of Lamashtu are quite happy with him as well! I also gave him a Barbazu Beard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/barbazu-beard/) for good measure, so he's up to 19 attacks now. I thought about giving him two Sea-Knives (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21026534&postcount=7) and the Flight aegis customization, but I'm not sure if they would interfere with his hooves.No. I am - NOT - going to read that again. Period.

Truth is, I've been trying and failing to reply to this for like ten times already. This is actually the first time I've managed to keep myself from reading it again, which is the sole reason why I'm able write more than one word before being thrown into yet another hysterical giggle fit. Seriously, this paragraph combined with the Bronze Boar build itself is just pure gold on so many levels I don't even know where to start. And that last sentence...

Crap, now I'm laughing again!

Castilonium, I give up! You've officially won the internet!

Seriously, I cannot stop laughing! This is... is...

[upho]

I thought this might be worth pointing out, but there's an archetype for the Monk called 'Scaled Fist" that switches all Wisdom derived abilities to Charisma.

(Sorry if someone else pointed this out, but I didn't see mention of it.)Hey, I dunno 'bout Castilonium, but I had actually completely missed this. Thanks!

*checks out this Cha-monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-archetypes/scaled-fist-monk-archetype/) and then gets a headache from trying to decipher monk archetype compatibilities for the hundredth time*

And it seems the Scaled Fist actually works with the Master of Many Styles! Which is great because... Uh...?

Unfortunately, I don't really see a point in dipping into this archetype. The Wis-to-Cha unfortunately only affects features/feats zealots are highly unlikely to be interested in using anyways (bonus to AC, daily uses of Stunning Fist etc), and it doesn't really offer anything else you can't get a better deal on elsewhere AFAICT. Too bad it doesn't work with the Monk of the Silver Fist though, because that could've been a lot more interesting. (As usual when trying to combine monk archetypes for dipping, it fails because of some damn pesky little detail you don't give a crap about. :smallannoyed:).

Anyone else find anything useful to pilfer from this archetype? FabulousChester?

[FabulousChester]

I haven't worked out anything that utilizes Scaled Fist itself, per se. I just sort of noticed the potential Charisma synergy, but I guess I hadn't considered it may not be all the useful ultimately. I guess if someone wanted to make an unarmored character to channel some sort of Jedi-ish feel? Which would probably be best combined with Master of Many Styles or something.

[Castilonium]

Sadly, there doesn't seem to be any reason to go with a Scaled Fist Monk dip. You need to be unarmored, and full plate + heavy shield is really good. An oracle dip can do the same thing and still allow you to wear armor. Scaled Fist also doesn't seem to be compatible with any other archetype, according to Secret Wizard's guide to monks (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vtxGT6RArwUBqSMTco-ekm9azMXWGox9tTD6Wp3rYTE/edit). It and MoMS both modify/replace bonus feats. Thanks for the suggestion, though!

Upho, now I'm not sure if I should bother with other sample builds, because I'm worried nothing can top winning the internet like that! :smalltongue:

[khadgar567]

Sadly, there doesn't seem to be any reason to go with a Scaled Fist Monk dip. You need to be unarmored, and full plate + heavy shield is really good. An oracle dip can do the same thing and still allow you to wear armor. Scaled Fist also doesn't seem to be compatible with any other archetype, according to Secret Wizard's guide to monks (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vtxGT6RArwUBqSMTco-ekm9azMXWGox9tTD6Wp3rYTE/edit). It and MoMS both modify/replace bonus feats. Thanks for the suggestion, though!

Upho, now I'm not sure if I should bother with other sample builds, because I'm worried nothing can top winning the internet like that! :smalltongue:
just try it little bit harder i know when starfinder comes we can beat it

[upho]

Scaled Fist also doesn't seem to be compatible with any other archetype, according to Secret Wizard's guide to monks (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vtxGT6RArwUBqSMTco-ekm9azMXWGox9tTD6Wp3rYTE/edit). It and MoMS both modify/replace bonus feats.Yeah, Secret Wizard is right and I was wrong. I forgot that RAW, an archetype which adds options to a list is treated has having altered the feature in question, and is therefore incompatible with another archetype which replaces/alters/adds to the original options in the same list (even if the archetypes aren't replacing/altering the same individual options). BTW, this somewhat counter-intuitive rule is the reason why so many PoW archetype features needed to include text which clarify they're exceptions.


Upho, now I'm not sure if I should bother with other sample builds, because I'm worried nothing can top winning the internet like that! :smalltongue:What... :smalleek: NO! Me wants more builds! Don't worry, please!

Wait, I know... You put up those builds, or I'll take that internet back! :smallwink:

Speaking of, I just remembered I still haven't written down the actual build goals for Nelly. And I really should add a note clearly stating she should not in any way be regarded as a build suitable for most real games. Yeah, unfortunately I do think that is needed. IME people quite often misunderstand the context and intentions when they read up on a build posted on the forums. And in the case of builds people are likely to view as OP, there are of course also more people jumping to the wrong conclusions about everything from the purpose of the build ("how do I play your [horribly broken don't-do-this-at-home TO monster] build?") to the creator's preferred play style ("power-gaming munchkins like you don't belong at my table"). :smallsigh:

Come to think of it, you should probably also add a similar line to the Bronze Boar intro text. That build is exactly the type which risks being misunderstood by inexperienced players and/or seemingly provokes some people with its mere existence.

And now for some ramblings on Bronze Boar build details and the Ability Score section of the guide!


Ability Scores, and Picking your Fighting Style
Is there a particular reason why you don't actually give any ability score distribution recommendations in this section? I can understand a reluctance since this is often highly build dependent, but I still recommend you add at least the most common basic ability score priority order to help newer players.

The Bronze Boar
Important Maneuvers: Frenzy Strike (Thrashing Dragon 3), Cornered Frenzy Strike (Thrashing Dragon 5)
Pssst! You claim these maneuvers are Thrashing Dragon!

Aegis Customizations (9): ...4 Tentacles, Stinger, Brawn.
Student of the Astral Suit increases the Bronze Boar's effective aegis level by +4 for a total of 7th level, which AFAICT means he should actually have 10 customization points. And I think you should add the Darkvision, Hardened Strikes and additional Brawn customizations the aberrant gets for free.

The Bronze Boar has a sword, a shield bash, armor spikes, a boulder helm, a barbazu beard, 2 hooves, a bite, a gore, 4 tentacles, 2 stings, and a tail attack.
Since he obviously already has an UMD of at least +19 and seems to have some money left, I'd add a dorje of metamorphosis for 11,250 gp. This could give 2 additional natural attacks (or increase his size to Gargantuan).

And now that I'm able to keep myself from giggling, looking at the Cornered Frenzy Strike RAW, I think attacking with both hooves and sea-knives works fine. Both weapon types can be simultaneously wielded, even if they cannot normally be used during the same full attack since they use the same limb (legs). AFAICT, the reason why the same wouldn't be possible with weapons wielded in the Bronze Boar's hands if he also had say a pair of claws, is that he cannot simultaneously attack with his claws and use them to wield his sword and shield. In contrast, the sea-knives remain attached and wielded regardless of whether he attacks with his hooves or not. I suggest you use the left-over customization point to give him flight so he can use the sea-knives.

Finally, with a 1-level monk dip, he'd also have a monk unarmed strike which can be performed with any part of the body and counts as a manufactured weapon, and should therefore also count as wielded for the purpose of Cornered Frenzy Strike.

So... 24 attacks? :smalltongue:



just try it little bit harder i know when starfinder comes we can beat itYes! Then we might actually get to add some serious lazorpew-pew zealots, jedi masters and sith lords! :smallbiggrin:

[Castilonium]

Yup, it's sad but true, some people think that builds like Nelly, Bronze Boar, and Pun-Pun are things you should bring to an actual game :smalltongue: And others think you're scum merely for playing with the set of tinker toys that is the 3.5/PF ruleset to find out what legally works! I've added nice bright shiny bold red warning labels on Bronze Boar and Nelly in the vain hope that won't happen.

I didn't put in guidelines for stats, because I figured that they would be pretty self-evident. New players don't seem like the type to pick up 3rd party material right off the bat, so I figured that most people reading my guide would be experienced. I'm probably wrong about that. But I thought about it some more, and realized some people might decide to pump constitution to the roof at the expense of charisma simply because they're a "tank" class. So alright, guidelines added at the end of the section!

Thanks for catching all those mistakes on the Bronze Boar! Since you reminded me of the hilariously broken RAW of Cornered Frenzy Strike, that made me realize that ol' Bronzy can have even more attacks with claws. So I gave him 2 Thorn Bracers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/thorn-bracer/) and an Amulet of the Blooded (Abyssal) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-the-blooded/) for claw attacks. And with the dorje of metamorphosis, he's up to 25 attacks now :smallbiggrin:. Could probably be 26 with a level of monk like you said, but I'm not completely certain about that. I also added a couple lil paragraphs mentioning how much more insane he becomes at levels 13 and 15 :belkar:

[JonathanPDX]

I could use some advice selecting maneuvers. I'm building a 5th level half-orc Zealot, going evil, all offense, probably with a longspear / shield and Unorthodox Method traits so I can move my disciplines around. Probably Protection mission (5' reach) and Impulsive Reactions so I can rush right into the thick of things and then make plenty of attacks of opportunity while foes move in and out of range.

If I'm understanding my action economy correctly, every round I could use a boost (swift), strike (standard), then aid another (move) to refresh the first two and repeat the cycle next round, correct? If so, what's the best combination at this level? Chains of Doubt seems really good, but I don't know what boost would go best with it. For my stance I am leaning toward Elemental Flux Stance (fire) for passive healing (the party is very light on healing) and extra damage.

I expect to be fighting orcs, goblins, and other armed humanoids, if that makes a difference. Any advice? Thanks!

[Castilonium]

I could use some advice selecting maneuvers. I'm building a 5th level half-orc Zealot, going evil, all offense, probably with a longspear / shield and Unorthodox Method traits so I can move my disciplines around. Probably Protection mission (5' reach) and Impulsive Reactions so I can rush right into the thick of things and then make plenty of attacks of opportunity while foes move in and out of range.

If I'm understanding my action economy correctly, every round I could use a boost (swift), strike (standard), then aid another (move) to refresh the first two and repeat the cycle next round, correct? If so, what's the best combination at this level? Chains of Doubt seems really good, but I don't know what boost would go best with it. For my stance I am leaning toward Elemental Flux Stance (fire) for passive healing (the party is very light on healing) and extra damage.

I expect to be fighting orcs, goblins, and other armed humanoids, if that makes a difference. Any advice? Thanks!

Just to clear up the maneuver refreshing: You can't refresh maneuvers that you've used in the same round. So your actions will be aid another (move) to refresh your maneuvers you used in the previous round, boost (swift), strike (standard) in that order. You can use a counter (immediate) if you don't plan on using a boost when your turn comes up. If you didn't use a counter, then always use a boost to make sure you don't waste your swift action.

For boosts, Eldritch Fang (Elemental Flux 2) is good as it lets you hit incorporeal enemies and makes your attacks cause the staggered condition, a good backup if you fail to nauseate with Chains of Doubt. Hastened Leap (Piercing Thunder 2) is good for mobility since you probably have a poor acrobatics check and big ACP. Fear Eating Technique (Black Seraph 2) will help your self-healing and keep you up longer in a fight, but you need to have a way to reliably inflict fear conditions like Cornugon Smash or Enforcer. The absolute best boost for your level is Defending the Pride (Golden Lion 2), especially if you have the Community-Minded trait. Once you reach level 6, if you have access to Shattered Mirror, take a look at Reflected Blade Style. It's kind of insane.

For counters, you can't ask for better than Fear the Reaper (Eternal Guardian 2). Half-orcs have +2 racial intimidate, too.

Chains of Doubt is one of the best 3rd level strikes for most Zealots, yes. Once you reach level 7, grab either Bilious Strike (Black Seraph 4) or Energy Hammer (Elemental Flux 4) in earth active element. They're both ludicrously powerful and disable enemies for ages.

Elemental Flux Stance is far and away the best 3rd level stance in the game. Earth and air active elements are better than fire while you're in combat, though. Switch to fire for healing outside of combat, then go back to earth or air. Once you reach level 9, get Stance of the Thunderbrand (Piercing Thunder 5) and never look back.

Hope that helps, have fun :smallsmile:

[JonathanPDX]

Thank you for the advice, that's exactly what I needed!

[Swaoeaeieu]

To the Zealot experts! I would deeply apreciate some advice

my players (im the DM) will soon fight a buch of bad guys hunting the same treasure as them. I figured a zealot with some minions and maube another capable npc.
They will have a number of Kuo Toa henchmen, i was thinking a ranged Zealot could be a good back up for them.

How could i build such a zealot to challenge a group of 5 level players, without overwhelming them too much?

[Castilonium]

To the Zealot experts! I would deeply apreciate some advice

my players (im the DM) will soon fight a buch of bad guys hunting the same treasure as them. I figured a zealot with some minions and maube another capable npc.
They will have a number of Kuo Toa henchmen, i was thinking a ranged Zealot could be a good back up for them.

How could i build such a zealot to challenge a group of 5 level players, without overwhelming them too much?

Without knowing anything about your group of level 5 players, it's impossible to say. But here are some general tips.

Have the Zealot have lower HP than what a PC would have. Like, say, 10 constitution. Dip a level of Rubato Bard for a bit less HP, 1 less BAB, 1 less IL, but more minion support and Flowing Creek. Take the Combat Training trait to grab Leaping Dragon (TD) for some mobility. Use lots of minion-supporting boosts and counters like Pride Movement (GL) and Fear the Reaper (EG). Use strikes that don't directly do bonus damage, but lightly debuff the players or enable the minions, like Harmony-Shattering Strike (SG) and Disarming Shot (TG). Make it obvious that the Zealot is a threat that exponentially makes the fight harder so that the players will decide it's worth the risk to shove past the minions and attack the Zealot.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Without knowing anything about your group of level 5 players, it's impossible to say. But here are some general tips.

Have the Zealot have lower HP than what a PC would have. Like, say, 10 constitution. Dip a level of Rubato Bard for a bit less HP, 1 less BAB, 1 less IL, but more minion support and Flowing Creek. Take the Combat Training trait to grab Leaping Dragon (TD) for some mobility. Use lots of minion-supporting boosts and counters like Pride Movement (GL) and Fear the Reaper (EG). Use strikes that don't directly do bonus damage, but lightly debuff the players or enable the minions, like Harmony-Shattering Strike (SG) and Disarming Shot (TG). Make it obvious that the Zealot is a threat that exponentially makes the fight harder so that the players will decide it's worth the risk to shove past the minions and attack the Zealot.

ah yes, i forgot to provide context again. This is actually a 3.5 game at the moment, but i sometimes use path of war material for bossfights, so far it has given the party tough and exiting challenges.
The party is all level 5. A blasting sorcerer, a melee heavy phycic warrior, an archer ranger, a goliath barbarian and a throwing focussed scout. Solution to propblems so far are almost always by destroying the problem, ignoring it, or somehow performing a warcrime.

My idea was for the zealot to stay at a distance, using the martyr feature to keep the minions allive through the fight. The combat would have a goal besides killing the other party, like grabbing something important. That way if the fight proves too difficult the players can still win, and maybe have a recurring bad guy.
Would level 6 or 7 be too high for a party like mine? depending on the ammount of smaller targets/members of the collective of course.

[Castilonium]

6-7 would probably be too high. That'd give the zealot access to more deadly maneuvers, both in terms of damage and crowd control power. Make it level 5 with 10 constitution, and focus on debuffs and minions support like I mentioned. Make sure to keep some minions or terrain features between the players and the zealot so that they can't simply run straight up to him without effort.

[Swaoeaeieu]

cool. thanks for the tips!

[JonathanPDX]

I'm designing a melee damage character for a Skull and Shackles campaign, Gestalt level 6. We already have a tank so I just want to charge in and wreck people with a two-hander. Your guide has sold me that the Zealot / Rubato Bard could throw around a lot of damage dice without being a total glass cannon. I have a few questions:

1. Is my go-to battle plan to start Metronome, throw all my Tempo into enhancing strikes (for maximum damage dice) and burn any leftover to refresh my bard song rounds if they run low?
2. I'm going half-orc so I have 3 convictions. Impulsive Reactions is obvious, but what else to take? I'm pretty feat-starved, probably taking Awakened Animus, Power Attack, and the last one or two are the hard part. Discipline Focus? Cornugon Smash (with 6th level conviction as a combat feat?)
3. I assume the Zealot / Bard combo is best to focus on Elemental Flux and Sleeping Goddess so I can enhance my maneuvers. Are there any "must have" maneuvers you would recommend from other disciplines?
4. I'm torn on the mission too, since the good stuff won't turn on until 8th. I want to be destructive but Creation (emergency self-healing) or Protection (5' reach) seem like better choices.
5. Best two-handed non-reach weapon? Earthbreaker, Greatsword, Greataxe, or Falchion?
6. Any other tips, favorite magic items, traits, or other ideas to help max my pirate face-smashing ways? I really like the concept of the character but man, there are a lot of things to keep track of! Two maneuver lists, tempo, power points, proper action order, etc. I'll need to bring a whiteboard to manage it all!

Thanks!

[Castilonium]

I'm designing a melee damage character for a Skull and Shackles campaign, Gestalt level 6. We already have a tank so I just want to charge in and wreck people with a two-hander. Your guide has sold me that the Zealot / Rubato Bard could throw around a lot of damage dice without being a total glass cannon. I have a few questions:

1. Is my go-to battle plan to start Metronome, throw all my Tempo into enhancing strikes (for maximum damage dice) and burn any leftover to refresh my bard song rounds if they run low?
2. I'm going half-orc so I have 3 convictions. Impulsive Reactions is obvious, but what else to take? I'm pretty feat-starved, probably taking Awakened Animus, Power Attack, and the last one or two are the hard part. Discipline Focus? Cornugon Smash (with 6th level conviction as a combat feat?)
3. I assume the Zealot / Bard combo is best to focus on Elemental Flux and Sleeping Goddess so I can enhance my maneuvers. Are there any "must have" maneuvers you would recommend from other disciplines?
4. I'm torn on the mission too, since the good stuff won't turn on until 8th. I want to be destructive but Creation (emergency self-healing) or Protection (5' reach) seem like better choices.
5. Best two-handed non-reach weapon? Earthbreaker, Greatsword, Greataxe, or Falchion?
6. Any other tips, favorite magic items, traits, or other ideas to help max my pirate face-smashing ways? I really like the concept of the character but man, there are a lot of things to keep track of! Two maneuver lists, tempo, power points, proper action order, etc. I'll need to bring a whiteboard to manage it all!

Thanks!
1. Use Inspire Courage instead of Metronome. That gives you and your party +2 or more attack and damage. That's generally better than getting 2 more tempo per round. Remember that you can only spend so much tempo in a given action. Also, there are many strikes that deal more damage even than an augmented Sleeping Goddess strike, and I'll tell you which ones later. Use Fortissimo as often as possible for an easy free +50% damage increase. You should be able to generate enough tempo to do so via the natural 1 tempo per round and your ability to spend 1 performance round for 2 tempo.

2. Improved Zeal for another +1 attack for your party, and Personality Fragment (Sympathetic). Once you can get Psicrystal Containment and Psicrystal Reservoir, you can regain your psionic focus once per round completely for free. That lets you use your Mission ability every round right now, and possibly Deep Impact or Improved Path of Dedication every round at higher levels. You could get Psionic Conviction instead of Improved Zeal to get those feats faster. You don't need Awakened Animus, because Sleeping Goddess isn't the best for your pure damage playstyle.

3. The draw of Sleeping Goddess is that it has a lot of unique utility. You want to focus on damage, and Sleeping Goddess isn't the best at that, even with augments. Elemental Flux has some great stuff like Elemental Flux Stance and Energy Hammer, but it's still not the best option for damage. Focus on Scarlet Throne instead. Get utility maneuvers on your Rubato side and good strikes/boosts on your Zealot side. Your bread and butter combo at level 6 will be Aid Another + Power Attack + Rising Zenith Strike + Regal Blade. The idea is to stack your weapon die size and damage modifiers as high as you can, and multiply them with the Zenith series from Scarlet Throne. At level 7, use Noble Blade instead of Regal Blade. At level 9, Ruby Zenith Strike. Nothing else can compare for damage past this point. Royal Blade and Descending Sunset Strike are your final main pickups. Make sure you get access to Scarlet Throne on BOTH your Rubato and Zealot sides. Your Zealot side is the one that learns and uses the strikes and boosts, but having access to it on your Rubato side lets you use charisma instead of wisdom for Sense Motive thanks to Martial Performer.

4. You mentioned your party already has a tank, so if they do their job well, you shouldn't have to be concerned about needing emergency self healing. Get Destruction so you and your party can ignore DR at will. The level 8 augments are both incredibly powerful for you. With the first augment, you can completely nuke a single target with raw damage, and with the second, you can Zenith combo more than just a single enemy per round!

5. Greatsword. Actually, it doesn't really matter between Greatsword, Earthbreaker, or Greataxe. They all have the same damage die when enlarged even once. The Zenith strikes don't have a DC rider, so it doesn't matter if you use a discipline weapon or not. Don't pick Falchion, because your damage comes from die size and static damage modifiers, not critical hits.

6. Get a wand of enlarge person or dorje of minor metamorphosis for low levels and UMD them when you know there's going to be a fight within the next minute. Get a dorje of metamorphosis (the 3rd level power) once you can afford it, so you can grow 2 sizes instead of 1. The bigger you are, the more damage you do per hit, and thus the more you multiply with Zenith strikes. Also, the more AoOs you get because of reach.

For traits, get Adopted, Helpful (halfling), Battlefield Disciple, and Fools for Friends if allowed. Combined, they will make your Aid Another on yourself give you +6 to attack.

Stack strength as much as possible. Skill Focus, Eldritch Heritage, and Improved Eldritch Heritage with either Abyssal or Orc gives an inherent strength bonus. A 1 level dip in Bloodrager gives rage and a Protector familiar for massively increased durability. Or dip 1/2 levels of Wilder (raging surge) and enter the horrifically powerful Awakened Blade prestige class for huge improvements to your damage, attack, AC, saves, and action economy, not to mention manifesting and more power points.

Hope that helps, have fun splatting faces! :smallsmile: And have fun trying to keep track of everything :smalltongue:

[JonathanPDX]

Wow, thank you for all the great info! You are a Zealot encyclopedia!!

If I'm not investing my tempo to boost strikes then is Rubato Bard really adding enough? The damage cycle you described is fantastic and my actions are all spoken for, so pre-combat buffs or a single round to get big might be the best thing to look for in a second class.

Alchemist would provide Enlarge (and an extra hand to hold a shield), high reflex save, and Heroism at level 7. Not as efficient as Bard for free action boosts but it could add similar numbers.

Or Psion (Egoist) would give me Metamorphosis, which is 6 minutes of +2 size categories (+4 STR, boost the greatsword 2D6) as well as a list of handy stuff like DR, fast healing, natural armor, or mobility. I could use a bonus feat on Improved Metamorphosis, which I believe would let me boost my strength up +8 total. I lose my reflex save, which might be a bad idea, but for pure damage I don't see a better way to buff myself before charging in and starting the Zenith Strike cycle.

Rogue or Ninja adds +3D6 sneak attack, skills, and keeps the reflex save, but it's not going to scale as well as a caster. Soulknife (Gifted Blade) has the reflex save and Expansion, which can eat up all my PP to grow two sizes or at least stay large for a long time. The downside is that all those Blade Skills look mostly useless for a pure strength greatsword guy.

[Castilonium]

Wow, thank you for all the great info! You are a Zealot encyclopedia!!

If I'm not investing my tempo to boost strikes then is Rubato Bard really adding enough? The damage cycle you described is fantastic and my actions are all spoken for, so pre-combat buffs or a single round to get big might be the best thing to look for in a second class.

Alchemist would provide Enlarge (and an extra hand to hold a shield), high reflex save, and Heroism at level 7. Not as efficient as Bard for free action boosts but it could add similar numbers.

Or Psion (Egoist) would give me Metamorphosis, which is 6 minutes of +2 size categories (+4 STR, boost the greatsword 2D6) as well as a list of handy stuff like DR, fast healing, natural armor, or mobility. I could use a bonus feat on Improved Metamorphosis, which I believe would let me boost my strength up +8 total. I lose my reflex save, which might be a bad idea, but for pure damage I don't see a better way to buff myself before charging in and starting the Zenith Strike cycle.

Rogue or Ninja adds +3D6 sneak attack, skills, and keeps the reflex save, but it's not going to scale as well as a caster. Soulknife (Gifted Blade) has the reflex save and Expansion, which can eat up all my PP to grow two sizes or at least stay large for a long time. The downside is that all those Blade Skills look mostly useless for a pure strength greatsword guy.

I already mentioned methods of enlarging yourself before combat: UMD with wand of enlarge person, dorje of minor metamorphosis, or dorje of metamorphosis. They are well worth the cost, and you don't need to spend class levels on them. If you really want to enlarge yourself via your class and not wands, then Wilder-> Awakened Blade -> Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis) is the best choice. Or you could be satisfied with the feat Unlocked Talent (minor metamorphosis).

Level 6 is the best cutoff point for Rubato. The main things you're getting from it are +2 inspire competence, Fortissimo, and Martial Performance. Awakened Animus will give you a few more effective power points per day, so you need to decide for yourself if you're spending so many power points that it's worth a feat to use your excess tempo as more PP. After level 6, feel free to use that half of your gestalt on other class dips like the ones I already mentioned, or take a peek at the dipping section in my guide for more. MoMS monk and swashbuckler certainly wouldn't go amiss. Or dive headfirst into Awakened Blade!

You can't use a shield larger than a buckler and also use Scarlet Throne maneuvers. It's probably not worth spending 2 levels on an extra hand for an alchemist. You can get the same effect by picking up Shield Focus (buckler) and Unhindering Shield.

Don't worry about having a low reflex save. It just means you take a little extra damage in fights that feature AoE attacks, hardly a big deal. If you're really worried, grab Sanguine Perseverance, which lets you make a sense motive check in place of any saving throw. And remember, thanks to Martial Performance, you use charisma instead of wisdom for sense motive. You also have plenty of HP, and once you get Improved Path of Dedication at level 10 Zealot, you can immediately move yourself and the rest of your party out of the way of a fireball or breath weapon when you use Sanguine Perseverance (or any other applicable counter).

Classes with sneak attack are often too lacking in other useful class features, and require too much movement and tactical maneuvering for a frontline facesmasher. Soulknife is likewise pretty lackluster in terms of features.

Glad I could be of help :smallsmile: Let me know if you need moar!

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Ability Scores & Fighting Style) Added recommendations at the end for ability score distribution
(Dipping) Added Exciter/Fractured Mind Spiritualist
(Dipping) Added Urban Bloodrager as an option for Bloodrager
(Dipping) Added Scaled Fist Monk
(Prestige Classes) Added Umbral Blade
(Disciplines and Maneuvers) Fool's Errand has been fully released and is no longer in playtest
(Sample Builds) Made the Bronze Boar even more disgusting, and added details on what he does at later levels

[applied_people]

First things first. THANKS for all the work you've put into this guide @Castilonium! I've read a lot of guides and this is a really good one. Would love to see you take on the harbinger next! And thank you to Upho and everyone else who has contributed frequently and thoughtfully along the way.

With that taken care of, I'm posting to request some build help with a Zealot I'm hoping to play in my group's next campaign (should begin in about a month). Before I get to the build, there are a few important things to consider that should be factored into any advice offered.


1. My DM has agreed to allow 3PP content as long as he has access to the materials for review. That being said, I want to be very cautious with this character and not get 3PP materials bonked with the ban hammer for seeming too OP. I already optimize the most in our group and can tend to overshadow the other players. For that reason, I want this character to be focused on a protection/control tanking style vs. a damage dealing style.

2. While I consider myself a reasonably experienced player, there feels like a lot of built in complexity in this class (with great potential for it to get even more complex). So for this 'starter' zealot, I'd like to keep things pretty simple in the hopes that this will allow me to have a good handle on my character and his abilities and not slow down play at the table. Again...I fear the ban hammer.

3. I'm open to making big changes or small changes, to dipping, to whatever really...but keeping in mind the goals of relative ease of play, a focus on making the group shine and keeping it safe, and not frustrating my DM!



Starting Attributes
Strength: 17 (15 + 2 racial)
Dexterity: 10
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 8
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 16

Traits (getting 3 by taking a flaw)
Alternate Racial Traits: Liberty or Death & Psionic Resonance
- Adopted (Helpful)
- Community Minded
- Blade of Mercy

Feats and Class Abilities (Favored class bonuses going to 1/4 conviction)
1F: Discipline Focus (Eternal Guardian)
2C: Combat Conviction --> Enforcer (Horsechopper)
3F: Extra Conviction --> Impulsive Reactions
4C: Personality Fragment (+3 to Intimidate)
5F: Bodyguard
6C: Psionic Conviction --> Unlocked Talent (Minor Metamorphosis)
7F: Pikeman's Training
8C: Improved Zeal
9F: Psicrystal Containment
10C: Path of Dedication
11F: Psicrystal Reservoir
12C: Path of Dedication, Improved
13F: Discipline Mastery
14C: Strike of Unity
15F: Advanced Study
16C: Combat Conviction --> Advanced Study

Edit: Lots of reordering of feats and convictions to maximize effectiveness at each level

[Castilonium]

Sorry I missed your question, applied_people. I'll help you over on your thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527043-Path-of-War-Zealot-Build-Help)

[upho]

EDIT: Moved post to the thread mentioned by Castilonium. /EDIT

[Castilonium]

Humongous update!

Guide Update Notes:
(General): Info from the PoW Errata (http://dreamscarred.com/download/DRP271X_PoWErrata.pdf), Akashic Mysteries, Divergent Paths: Fool's Errand (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWw7bVMARxrXfRuOW20NlRqXEnS_XGLPT6LHTbz2qME/edit#), Divergent Paths: Medic (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fkVJcjXIEZiZj_vpumo_8qy0TZfQl2hZ-tKV4rLnxLM/edit), Rajah playtest (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DEPmWq8G3m1G8-tWZSGJNDfrx0T-lKaBPcHGOHiRNTE/edit#), Radiant Dawn playtest (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bxvxLR5IDD2J_EHV0n60dxoS504TPwZXeun7HeKumN4/edit#), Highlord playtest (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i2wrIBB_sibYLbUHh_Dbh5Y0guEQgnYbFwjKnvS375w/edit#), Bloodforge, and Lords of the Wild playtest (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FcMpsY7ancpaWiBpFhI_jlARL8p2OXZhaFxAjzJCyW4/edit?usp=sharing) added
(General): Improved the look and organization of the Outline on the left
(Ability Scores & Fighting Style): Laser Beams updated to include info about Radiant Dawn (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bxvxLR5IDD2J_EHV0n60dxoS504TPwZXeun7HeKumN4/edit#) and Sun's Gleam
(Ability Scores & Fighting Style): Added Mounted fighting style
(Races): Divided into subsections and added the "Bloodforge and Other DSP Races" subsection
(Paizo Races): Added Half-Elf and Gnome
(Bloodforge and Other DSP Races): Added Alicorn, Grendle, Kestrel, and Kijin
(Class Features): Personality Fragment and Echoes of Steel are purple because you can use Echoes of Steel to give your psicrystal maneuvers!
(Feats): Added "Other Dreamscarred Press Feats" subsection
(Path of War & Expanded Feats): Added Lurker in Darkness, Ranged Martial Power, and updated Weapon Group Adaptation
(Style Feats): Added Chimera Soul Style and Radiant Dawn Style
(Psionic Feats): Added Collective Focus, Enlarged Collective, Looming Presence, and Opportunistic Conscription
(Paizo Feats): Added Martial Focus, Cut from the Air, Smash from the Air, and Wasp Familiar
(Other Dreamscarred Press Feats): Added LOTS!
(Traits): Organized by trait type, and added Mixed Blood and Voices of Solid Things
(Dipping): Added info on the Mauler familiar archetype to Bloodrager, added Rajah (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DEPmWq8G3m1G8-tWZSGJNDfrx0T-lKaBPcHGOHiRNTE/edit#), and updated Warlord (Privateer)
(Equipment): Added FAQs explaining the scorpion whip and discipline weapon rules, and added Weapon Modifications
(Wondrous Items): Added Banner of the Scarlet Rose and Gloves of Arcane Striking
(Disciplines & Maneuvers): Info from PoW Errata (http://dreamscarred.com/download/DRP271X_PoWErrata.pdf) applied to all disciplines
(Disciplines & Maneuvers): Added Chimera Soul (playtest) and Radiant Dawn (playtest)!
(Sample Builds): New builds! Bosun Cobalt Damianos, AoO Zealot; Ship’s Doctor Jubilation Sunheart, healer and laser beam Zealot; Lookout Yumi, mounted long range archery Zealot! Also, updated Dread Captain Alexandra

And there's probably a lot of other stuff I forgot! As always, please give me suggestions on what else I should put in the guide!

[TiaC]

Great as always!

One thing I would like to point out about Fool's Errand. The text forbidding the use of other weapons is "A character cannot substitute other weapons for the additional unarmed strikes granted by Fool’s Errand maneuvers". This would mean that Lesson II and Lesson V could be used with other weapons as they do not grant additional unarmed attacks, only modify the ones you can already make.

Edit: Also, there is an item printed in both Roil Dancer and PsiAug Kineticists that is great for Mithral Current. The Flicker Gauntlet is a short-term glove of storage that allows the item to be stored or retrieved as a free action, and it only costs 1k. It lets you always draw your weapon for a negligible cost.

I also notice that you point out the issue with switching elements for Elemental Flux without noting the easiest way to do it. As a psionic character, whenever you refocus, you can change both your active energy type and active element. This is likely to be a move action for you, making things a bit better.

[Castilonium]

Hi TiaC! :smallsmile:

Looks like you're right about Lesson II and Lesson V. But in order to take advantage of that, you'd need to grab Ascetic Style. It'd make for a bit more damage at low levels with Lesson II, but I don't think it'd be worth using for Lesson V.

I don't think retrieving an item from the Flicker Gauntlet counts as drawing, and storing one doesn't count as sheathing for the purpose of Mithral Current stuff. The description doesn't use the words draw or sheathe, it uses retrieve and store.

Ooooooh, you're right that regaining your psionic focus lets you switch your active energy type and thus active element! That's a super useful tidbit, thanks a bunch! Now a Zealot with Psicrystal Reservoir or Overpowering Optimism probably doesn't have to worry about picking up Elemental Flux Style!

[TiaC]

Comparing Ascetic Style to unarmed combat, can easily be worth it if you plan to use Lesson V a lot. Lesson V is one of those stances you can build around and expect to be in all the time.

Ascetic style needs two or three feats, depending on if you get Fuse Styles, but Greater Unarmed strike needs two. That extra feat can buy you 1.5 Str to damage, better crits, and an easier time overcoming material DR. That seems like a decent trade to me.

I believe the Flicker Gauntlet works for Mithral Current by the text of the sidebar on Page 90 of PoW:E.
"A weapon is considered sheathed if it is in a non-threatening position, such as a monk putting their hands at their sides or in their pockets, a spear wielder pointing the tip of their spear into the ground, a soulknife with an unformed mind blade, or even a samurai keeping their katana in its sheath. The terminology of sheathing the weapon is only intended to serve as a shorthand for any number of ways a warrior can present themselves as non-threatening with their weapon." Sheathing is not really a game term, it just applies to any situation where the weapon is not obviously ready for use. A stored weapon would seem to fit into the same area as an unformed mindblade and count as sheathed.

[Sokerimuro]

Hey there, and thanks for an awesome guide that is regularly referred in my case nowadays :)

I am a keen PoW fan, writer and homebrewer so it is warming to see someone put this much effort into a guide! Job well done!

Anyways, just noticed that the guide still has, under Void Prophet archetype, the notion that there is nothing protecting VP from the Fort saves required when a collective member dies. While ago I noticed that d20pfsrd was missing the clause that was present in the printed version of the books that I have. Now after the update to the site this clause has also been updated to d20pfsrd, and is as follows:


At 1st level, she may add unwilling members to her collective as a move action, and may expend her psionic focus to add an unwilling member as a swift action instead. A void prophet never loses power points as a result of an unwilling member of her collective dying.

It is a bit vague, but I believe the end part referring "never losing power points" might be their way of saying, although a bit awkwardly, that Void Prophet would not need to make saves when unwilling members of the collective are reduced to 0 hit points.

Cheers :)

[upho]

Anyways, just noticed that the guide still has, under Void Prophet archetype, the notion that there is nothing protecting VP from the Fort saves required when a collective member dies. While ago I noticed that d20pfsrd was missing the clause that was present in the printed version of the books that I have. Now after the update to the site this clause has also been updated to d20pfsrd, and is as follows:Hmm... My PDF - the first and so far only official e-version of PoW: E AFAIK - has the exact same text as d20pfsrd. What additional clause does the later printed version have?

I believe the Fort save comes from the Collective feature (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/zealot/#TOC-Collective-Su-), which isn't replaced by a VP feature:

"If a member of the collective dies, the member is removed from the collective and the zealot must make a Fortitude save (DC 15) or lose 1 power point for every Hit Die of the fallen member or be sickened for an equal number of rounds."


It is a bit vague, but I believe the end part referring "never losing power points" might be their way of saying, although a bit awkwardly, that Void Prophet would not need to make saves when unwilling members of the collective are reduced to 0 hit points.While the 1st level benefit of the VP's Hollow Faith you quoted does explicitly address the "lose 1 power point for every Hit Die"-part of Collective, one possible interpretation is that there's nothing protecting the VP from having to save against the sickened effect.

That said, I do very much agree with you that the RAI is pretty obvious, both because the RAI of "or be sickened for an equal number of rounds"-part probably has the addendum "if you have no power points left", and because the VP's recovery and Unwilling Participant mechanics would be ridiculously poor otherwise.

[Sokerimuro]

Hmm... My PDF - the first and so far only official e-version of PoW: E AFAIK - has the exact same text as d20pfsrd. What additional clause does the later printed version have?

I believe the Fort save comes from the Collective feature, which isn't replaced by a VP feature:

"If a member of the collective dies, the member is removed from the collective and the zealot must make a Fortitude save (DC 15) or lose 1 power point for every Hit Die of the fallen member or be sickened for an equal number of rounds."

While the 1st level benefit of the VP's Hollow Faith you quoted does explicitly address the "lose 1 power point for every Hit Die"-part of Collective, one possible interpretation is that there's nothing protecting the VP from having to save against the sickened effect.

That said, I do very much agree with you that the RAI is pretty obvious, both because the RAI of "or be sickened for an equal number of rounds"-part probably has the addendum "if you have no power points left", and because the VP's recovery and Unwilling Participant mechanics would be ridiculously poor otherwise.


I was a bit unclear in my post, just realized, pardon me for that :)

What I meant with the original pfsrd clause, was that the
A void prophet never loses power points as a result of an unwilling member of her collective dying. part was actually missing from d20pfsrd for a good while, originally. I do not have any idea why that was, might have somehow been lost in the copying process from PDF -> website or however. I have both the printed books and PDFs myself and both contained that part, when it was missing from d20pfsrd which now has it also.

Just replied in a thought that if the guide might have been written from that specific Void Prophet part relying to srd text, which quite likely would not have been the case I realize now :smallsmile:

And yea, I think the RAI is pretty clear but just as you point out, the RAW in fact still is silly in this regard.

Cheers

[Mithril Leaf]

Hey, in Steelforge 1, there's a power charm which causes your Zeal to last an additional round for a few grand. It's quite handy if you're not rocking Community-Minded.

[upho]

Hey, in Steelforge 1, there's a power charm which causes your Zeal to last an additional round for a few grand. It's quite handy if you're not rocking Community-Minded.I second this. Mainly because Nelly uses one, of course... :smallwink:

[Mithril Leaf]

I second this. Mainly because Nelly uses one, of course... :smallwink:

Fair enough, but should probably be listed independently.

[Castilonium]

Thanks for the tip about the power charm :smallsmile:

I've added a section for charms to the guide, as well as a few more useful items. Also, the start of the equipment section mentions the Variant Rule: Combating Christmas Trees that appears in Steelforge 1.

[Mithril Leaf]

Oh hey, there's a first party large humanoid, The Ved (http://archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ved). Now you're all set for Aasimars, Skinwalkers, and Tieflings even if the GM doesn't like Akashic Mysteries.

[upho]

Oh hey, there's a first party large humanoid, The Ved (http://archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ved). Now you're all set for Aasimars, Skinwalkers, and Tieflings even if the GM doesn't like Akashic Mysteries.Eh? I don't see the ved being a player race, which is kinda the big thing (pun intended) with the gamla. There's tons of 1pp large or larger humanoids. Like all giants, for starters.

[Mithril Leaf]

Eh? I don't see the ved being a player race, which is kinda the big thing (pun intended) with the gamla. There's tons of 1pp large or larger humanoids. Like all giants, for starters.

EDIT: I'm a dummy, however there is actually the Shobhad (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/monstrous-races-21-30-rp/shobhad/), which is a player race.

[upho]

EDIT: I'm a dummy, however there is actually the Shobhad (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/monstrous-races-21-30-rp/shobhad/), which is a player race.The problem here is that it's a monstrous race with a whopping 29 RP. I think pretty few games allow advanced races, and far fewer still monstrous races. The gamla is on the other hand rather well balanced to the core races, even though using it for size heritage shenanigans may not be.

[Mithril Leaf]

The problem here is that it's a monstrous race with a whopping 29 RP. I think pretty few games allow advanced races, and far fewer still monstrous races. The gamla is on the other hand rather well balanced to the core races, even though using it for size heritage shenanigans may not be.

Well yeah but we're only using it for size heritage shenanigans, so isn't that the important part?

[upho]

Well yeah but we're only using it for size heritage shenanigans, so isn't that the important part?Oh, totally agree. I was thinking more in terms of how restrictions on PC options seem to be set up in most games. That is, content that come with special GM permission notes are most often flat out banned, regardless of the specific context or manner a player would like to use such content.

That said, I'd guess most GMs allowing DSP material to begin with are more likely to judge things on a case-by-case basis.

[Mithril Leaf]

Oh baby do I have a juicy tidbit for this guide! In Psionics Augmented: Host of Heroes, there is the titular Aegis archetype, which gains access to a special role system. One role they have available to them is the Marshal. The Marshal possesses the following ability:

(In regards to the custom Astral Suit of the Marshal)
At 2nd level, while you wear this astral suit,
you can take 10 on checks made with the aid another
action, and you increase the bonus granted when you use
the aid another action by +2.

Which is actually incredible for the Zealot. It's already basically a free sweet dip, this makes it super good.

[Wartex1]

Could one possibly do a Dread Multiclass with the Huntsmaster archetype to get access to a spooky ghost wolf collective and that roar feat which frightens all enemies in 60 foot radius?

[Castilonium]

Oh baby do I have a juicy tidbit for this guide! In Psionics Augmented: Host of Heroes, there is the titular Aegis archetype, which gains access to a special role system. One role they have available to them is the Marshal. The Marshal possesses the following ability:

(In regards to the custom Astral Suit of the Marshal)
At 2nd level, while you wear this astral suit,
you can take 10 on checks made with the aid another
action, and you increase the bonus granted when you use
the aid another action by +2.

Which is actually incredible for the Zealot. It's already basically a free sweet dip, this makes it super good.

You're right, this is an incredible dip for Zealots! I didn't know about this, thank you for the heads up :smallsmile:


Could one possibly do a Dread Multiclass with the Huntsmaster archetype to get access to a spooky ghost wolf collective and that roar feat which frightens all enemies in 60 foot radius?

On its own, it's not a very good dip. A Wild Huntmaster's hunting pack's hp and attack bonus scale from class levels, so they'll fall behind as you level up. You have to spend actions making your hunting pack do things, which you'd rather use on maneuvers. The Dread's low level class features and chassis aren't great, either.

Pack Howl is potentially useful in that you can use it to fear-lock all enemies within 60 feet by doing the same thing every turn, and not fear your allies in your collective. Grab Jailer of the Damned (Eternal Guardian 5), Inarguable Presence of the Sleeping Goddess (Sleeping Goddess 5), or the Black Seraph Annihilation style feat to ignore fear immunity. But if you're going that crazy with aoe fear lockdown, you may as well get Black Seraph's Glare and Soulless Gaze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/soulless-gaze-damnation), and spam Circle of Razor Feathers or Silver Crane's Spiral with a longbow.

[FabulousChester]

How would you rate Drow if a GM is allowing the Elf favored class bonus apply to them? Curious because my GM is, and I just wanted to weigh options. Also to add is I'll be taking the alternative trait that trades darkvision and light blindness for lowlight.

[upho]

How would you rate Drow if a GM is allowing the Elf favored class bonus apply to them? Curious because my GM is, and I just wanted to weigh options.I'd say the elf FCB makes the drow about as good as the elf, and I'd rate it blue. I think perfect stats and the best FCB alone is enough to guarantee at least a blue rating. The elf's weapon familiarity is much better for zealots, but the trait itself isn't particularly unique or valuable anyways if you can take a COWPIS, and the drow SLAs can be pretty neat during lower levels.


Also to add is I'll be taking the alternative trait that trades darkvision and light blindness for lowlight.From a pure optimization perspective, this is a bad trade in most campaigns IME. You'll rarely be fighting in bright light, but often in darkness. In addition, darkvision synergizes really well with other drow traits, setting you up for making a very competent scout with less additional investment.

[Vhaidara]

a COWPIS

*raises hand*

A wat?

[Mithril Leaf]

*raises hand*

A wat?

Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone. Makes an exotic weapon count as martial for 1500 gp.

[upho]

*raises hand*

A wat?
Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone. Makes an exotic weapon count as martial for 1500 gp.Mr Leaf be down with da lingo.

On topic, if you take that COWPIS in a wayfinder for an additional 500 gp, you can get Weapon Focus as well! Just mind what you're drinking before you do; you may very well have to live with the smell of that wayfinder for a long time...

[jff362]

Rereading the guide as I make a high level Zealot and once again super impressed and grateful. Thanks for all the thought and time you put into this!

I just noticed the psionic weapon enhancements, mindfeeder and bodyfeeder (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-weapons/). They're both pricey, but seem great for the right zealot.

Mindfeeder has some real limitations (1/day, only after you score a crit, only refills to your max PP, and they only last 10 minutes)...but even with those caveats, the chance to add 50+ PP to your pool seems pretty worth the cost.

Bodyfeeder granting THP isn't quite as exciting...but the fact that it's free on every crit and can go above your max HP makes it seem great for a tank as well.

What are your thoughts?

[Castilonium]

Rereading the guide as I make a high level Zealot and once again super impressed and grateful. Thanks for all the thought and time you put into this!

I just noticed the psionic weapon enhancements, mindfeeder and bodyfeeder (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-weapons/). They're both pricey, but seem great for the right zealot.

Mindfeeder has some real limitations (1/day, only after you score a crit, only refills to your max PP, and they only last 10 minutes)...but even with those caveats, the chance to add 50+ PP to your pool seems pretty worth the cost.

Bodyfeeder granting THP isn't quite as exciting...but the fact that it's free on every crit and can go above your max HP makes it seem great for a tank as well.

What are your thoughts?

I'm glad you like the guide and find it helpful :smallsmile:

I'd say a big red nope on Bodyfeeder for several reasons. There are ways to get a lot of THP already, like with Martial Power, or with various Radiant Dawn maneuvers. Radiant Dawn Sunlight in particular is amazing for stacking THP. And if you're maximizing Golden Lion Command, well, see the Bronze Boar build. Bodyfeeder benefits from having a lot of attacks per round so you can crit-fish. Zealots are bad at crit-fishing. Most Zealots only attack once per round, and if they attack more often, it's with AoOs or a rare multi-target strike. You'd need to get a COWPIS, wield a fauchard, and either spend another precious +1 enhancement on keen or a feat on improved critical to make the most of that. Also, money spent on this +3 enhancement is money not spent on a simple +3 for 15% more accuracy. Too much investment for too little reward.

Mindfeeder is interesting, but highly unreliable. It has the same high investment cost as Bodyfeeder, and you also have to be low on PP to get the most value from it. I think a simple +3 enhancement bonus will be better.

There are a few maneuvers that lets you crit very easily: Twisting Wind Shot (Solar Wind 6) and Hunting Zephyr (Tempest Gale 7), but they have a few problems. They only allow ranged weapons, and they don't have any helpful riders. And even then, a Zealot will deal low damage compared to other characters with the crit because they have no class features that increase raw damage and probably won't take Deadly Aim. They'd have to get all of their damage from enhancement bonus, strength if using a bow, and buffs. Low damage means low THP or PP with the feeder enhancements.

If you're level 15, you can use Armaments of the Empire (Radiant Dawn 3) to slap one of these enhancements on your weapon for free, but you still have to land the crit. And there are so many good stances out there by level 15 that it raises the question of why you aren't using those instead.

So in short, they're not very good for most Zealots. But I'm sure a dedicated build could make decent use of them. It'd give a lot more PP for Martyrdoms at high levels, but Martyrdom can be overwhelmed by multiple attacks towards the same ally.

[jff362]

Thanks for your thoughts on Body and Mindfeeder.

I noticed your guide's entry for Woedrinker says " You have good social skills, so you should be able to convince your friends and psicrystal to let you curse them every so often."

Note that Woedrinker says "for each cursed opponent" (my emphasis). Unless PoW defines it differently, I'm pretty certain that one's allies can't be counted as opponents.