Warlock patron penalties and rewards

[Danielqueue1]

IF YOU ARE PART OF THE AEGIS FALL CAMPAIGN, MOVE ALONG! NOTHING TO SEE HERE!

So I am currently DMing a 5e game where the party is seeking to recover a number of very powerful magical artifacts and have a very good reason to endeavor to prevent them from falling into the control of ANY extraplanar being. however one of the players has a pact with a certain denizen of the outer planes that has a specific and intimate knowledge one of said artifacts and a strong desire to possess it. I want player's choices (including character creation) to have a significant affect on play and the world in general (playing a drow will actually drive the party out of certain towns)

what I want to do is after the recovery of the artifact, the Patron will contact the above mentioned warlock and demand the delivery of said magical artifact, promising power and such upon completion and punishment for refusal.

1) What benefits could I provide the warlock without unbalancing the party?

2) What penalties could I impose on the warlock without completely crippling the character?

3) What methods of recompense could the warlock make (other than delivery of the artifact) that would have a denizen of the outer planes forgive the Warlock for disobeying a direct order and continuing to do so for the rest of the campaign?

as I said, I want character actions to have significant impact on the world, turning this artifact over to a "dark being" will have significant affect on the entire campaign world and I want the effects on the party to be felt directly. I don't want the penalty for disobedience to be a "slap on the wrist" but I also don't want to go so far as to reduce a level 6 warlock to a level 1 commoner by taking away all the pact features (it would be in character for the being to do just that, or straight up kill the character, but I as a DM want to avoid it.)

any ideas, thoughts, anecdotes of things DMs have done in the past are welcome. thank you.

[Douche]

I was thinking about this the other day. So many DMs just let warlocks get the full benefits of the class without any interaction with their patron. It's like they don't want to bother with the whole Faustian Bargain thing, and just let the guy play his class as if he were just a regular old fighter or something.

A wizard goes & researches scrolls to learn new spells. A paladin & cleric interact with their gods. So to should a Warlock need to do tasks to appease his patron. That being said, I don't ever advocate giving a player a debuff. That's no fun. Maybe a curse that would last a few days, but nothing more.

Anyway, I just really love the idea of having a devil whispering in your ear the whole time, telling you to do wicked acts for his amusement. I mean, it's right there in the MM Quasit options as a familiar. They will drive you to do increasingly more chaotic acts, and will screw you over whenever it's the most hilarious moment... or something like that. That's the price you pay for magic resistance!

Take a look at Rod of the Pact Keeper. It's right there in the name - "Pact Keeper"... and it goes up to +3. That item was made for warlocks, and to me the name suggests that it's meant for the DM to reward the Warlock for being warlock-y. Imagine a critical moment in the story - the party was sent by the (unbeknownst to them, Lawful Evil) king to capture the bandit prince. They have him right where they want him, ready to strike the killing blow... but he has pretty much convinced the party that he's actually chaotic good, rebelling against the crown as some kind of Robin Hood figure. So they're going to switch sides! But the warlock patron suddenly sends him a telepathic message "kill the bandit prince. Do it, do it now! This will please me, and you will be rewarded". The warlock decides to actually go with it, murdering the bandit prince in his sleep - and wakes up the next morning with a Rod of the Pact Keeper. That would certainly encourage his deviant behavior, and will drive him to perform more evil later on!

[CursedRhubarb]

I was thinking about this the other day. So many DMs just let warlocks get the full benefits of the class without any interaction with their patron. It's like they don't want to bother with the whole Faustian Bargain thing, and just let the guy play his class as if he were just a regular old fighter or something.

A wizard goes & researches scrolls to learn new spells. A paladin & cleric interact with their gods. So to should a Warlock need to do tasks to appease his patron. That being said, I don't ever advocate giving a player a debuff. That's no fun. Maybe a curse that would last a few days, but nothing more.

Anyway, I just really love the idea of having a devil whispering in your ear the whole time, telling you to do wicked acts for his amusement. I mean, it's right there in the MM Quasit options as a familiar. They will drive you to do increasingly more chaotic acts, and will screw you over whenever it's the most hilarious moment... or something like that. That's the price you pay for magic resistance!

Take a look at Rod of the Pact Keeper. It's right there in the name - "Pact Keeper"... and it goes up to +3. That item was made for warlocks, and to me the name suggests that it's meant for the DM to reward the Warlock for being warlock-y. Imagine a critical moment in the story - the party was sent by the (unbeknownst to them, Lawful Evil) king to capture the bandit prince. They have him right where they want him, ready to strike the killing blow... but he has pretty much convinced the party that he's actually chaotic good, rebelling against the crown as some kind of Robin Hood figure. So they're going to switch sides! But the warlock patron suddenly sends him a telepathic message "kill the bandit prince. Do it, do it now! This will please me, and you will be rewarded". The warlock decides to actually go with it, murdering the bandit prince in his sleep - and wakes up the next morning with a Rod of the Pact Keeper. That would certainly encourage his deviant behavior, and will drive him to perform more evil later on!

I agree here. My lock is in an awkward relationship with his patron, basically raised by his Great Old One, which is fashioned a bit after Azathoth. Unlimited power and influence...and the mind of a child. So my Lock finds himself getting requests from the GOO (man that sounds awkward with abbreviations XD) for various things. From finding answers to riddles to having to preform acts to answer a question (What does fire taste like was a "fun" one) to the latest of it wanting a pet so I got basically a bag of Holding quest item that only worked to but animals in and I had to find a pet for the GOO that had multiple heads so it wouldn't be lonely and because the GOO only wanted one pet, and one head had to be a lion head so it got a pet cat.

The Rod of the Pact Keeper is a great way to reward/punish a Warlock for serving the patron. Preform enough and get a rod at +1. Keep doing well and it will rise to +2 and eventually a +3. Refuse to serve and the rod looses it's bonuses gradually and may be taken back if the lock refuses to serve when the rod is +1.

Patron requests can be at the DM's whim but keep them in flavor of the patron and it can be a lot of fun. Even for the lock and party as they often reluctantly preform odd acts. It can also be a nifty way to give a boost for a planned hard session by giving an easy request or to raise the challenge by giving a request they will refuse to drop the rod's power. (It's a crazy powerful item for a lock and even a +1 rod would make any lock hesitant to do something that would lose it. Great for adding some rp flavor to a campaign or to make the cost of being a warlock apparent.)

[Spamotron]

It goes without saying but talk to the entire group about this OOC not just the Warlock's player. For some groups the warlock possibly doing things against the Party's interests to appease his Patron are fun RP complications. For others its unfun PVP bait and they might decide to never let anyone ever play a warlock again.

[MrStabby]

Another option to discuss out of character is what happens with betrayal of the patron.

Shifting class, even with a few tweaks might work well. For example the warlock could be visited by a vision whilst accompanying another character to their church/temple - a vision of what happens if they hand over the artefact. They then replace their patron with this god if they betray their patron. Shift some abilities - spells become cleric spells (re-pick), pact spells become domain spells from the god's domains and so on. Change casting stat to charisma. This hopefully provides continuity of a sort, advances the plot and neither boost power too much nor drops it too much.

You might have to look at this quite closely though - a lot of power is tied up in the warlock's eldritch blast so taking this away is a big nerf. On the other hand it is also recognised that some spells cast from a highest level spell slot on a short rest basis can also be a bit overpowered - hence needing invocations to do so. Having spells like curse, bane, banishment and spiritual guardians on the core list means that power would get a corresponding boost.



Speaking of spells, I find spells a great reward. Find spells that really capture the essence of the patron and add them to the warlocks spells known. You can go further and homebrew some new spells if you wish, especially to be thematic. These should be on the powerful side if they are to be a reward. For example if the Patron was Orcus, then you might want to add animate dead to the spells known and add a bunch of other necromancy spells to his list. As punishment for betrayal you could strip out the patron spells from the class, leaving the player with similar power but less flexibility. Then they have the choice of appeasing their patron or finding a new one.

[CursedRhubarb]

Another option to discuss out of character is what happens with betrayal of the patron.

Shifting class, even with a few tweaks might work well.

This could be interesting. Instead of cleric though, this could make for a very interesting Sorcerer. Having been channeling pact magic they have been changed and upon being abandoned by the patron, some lingering magical ability remains. Could fluff the dragon to fey, fiend, or...whatever a GOO is, Eldritch perhaps? Wild Magic would be fun for it and could be fun to RP it as lack of control since they were just a conduit before but now have magic of their own.

Would check with players to make sure they are okay with a big change though and might be something to have at the end of the session so they can build the change fore next time or give them a heads up a game before so there isn't a long pause to rebuild a character.

[MrStabby]

Would check with players to make sure they are okay with a big change though and might be something to have at the end of the session so they can build the change fore next time or give them a heads up a game before so there isn't a long pause to rebuild a character.

Oh yeah, basically you are saying that you are picking the players class for them if you dont. I also like your sorcerer suggestion.

The OP could open it up to the player - if they want to not hand over the artefact then they need a new patron and they can take their pick of the other spell lists to use instead. This gives the player the real choice of what to do with their character.

[Douche]

The OP could open it up to the player - if they want to not hand over the artefact then they need a new patron and they can take their pick of the other spell lists to use instead. This gives the player the real choice of what to do with their character.

Implying that a Devil or Great Old One will just let someone back out of a contract and switch patrons at will...

[MrStabby]

Implying that a Devil or Great Old One will just let someone back out of a contract and switch patrons at will...

Not at will, there may be quests and trials etc. involved and it may require the new patron to fight their corner.

[Corsair14]

I would do it the same way with warlocks as I do with daemon weapons in my game. If a quandary comes up either verbally tell the possessor(or warlock) they really want to do the bad thing(or whatever benefits the entity), hint strongly. If need be pass a note saying they really want to do it. As the game progresses and the player chooses to fight it every time, start to force the player to have a willpower type save maybe based on wisdom, at increasing DC as the entity exerts more power on his ever more useful tool. If they pass they do what they want to do, if they fail they do what the entity wants.

[CaptainSarathai]

I was thinking about this the other day. So many DMs just let warlocks get the full benefits of the class without any interaction with their patron. It's like they don't want to bother with the whole Faustian Bargain thing, and just let the guy play his class as if he were just a regular old fighter or something.

A wizard goes & researches scrolls to learn new spells. A paladin & cleric interact with their gods. So to should a Warlock need to do tasks to appease his patron. That being said, I don't ever advocate giving a player a debuff. That's no fun. Maybe a curse that would last a few days, but nothing more.

While I play Warlocks quite often, and enjoy RPing that Faustian bargain, I don't think it's necessarily fair to blast the 'Lock with implications. I've never seen a Wizard actually go to a library and research her spells, or a Paladin do anything more than maintain a favorable alignment. The fact that a Warlock works for a figure who is likely against party interests, means that expecting him to RP is going to cause friction.
The other concern I have, is that it makes it very easy to railroad a Warlock. If a Paladin drops out of his oath, he gets to go Oathbreaker. That is, quite possibly, an upgrade. A Warlock has no recourse. Tick off his Patron, and he probably just gets dragged straight into the abyss.


It goes without saying but talk to the entire group about this OOC not just the Warlock's player. For some groups the warlock possibly doing things against the Party's interests to appease his Patron are fun RP complications. For others its unfun PVP bait and they might decide to never let anyone ever play a warlock again.
Absolutely. In the short time I've been here, I've already seen 2 threads talking about inter-party conflict as a result of Warlocks trying to uphold their Pact.

Unless you run Fiend, there's no real need to even run an "evil" patron. My current Warlock draws from the Vestiges, and took Andromalius as an outsider. This makes me Lawful Neutral, actually, as Andromalius is against theft. Go that route and you can treat Warlocks roughly the way you treat your Paladins. They just have to uphold the morals of their patron.

[tieren]

I think as the reward for compliance a Rod of the Pact Keeper is perfect.

For the punishment, I think I would go for something more physical (although the idea of reducing the bonus on an existing Rod is also brilliant). I think I would go with the patron sending some other agent to battle the wayward warlock to prove he is still worthy of his boons. Perhaps something like that card from the deck of many things that sends the nemesis after you.

That way the lock can choose the party favorable outcome and the party can share in the consequence by helping him defeat the nemesis (or avatar or lackey or whatever).

[Joe the Rat]

You need to find better libraries to hang out in then.

Point of fact, I do send my party wizard to the library for spell research. I send my Cleric to the library for every outside spell he wants to add to his options. The Paladin goes because he's a bookworm.


On the Carrot and Stick. Let me let you in on a secret:
There's this assumption that the Patron is the source of power. It's a valid assumption - but it isn't necessarily always true.

Here's a possibility: What you have learned, what you can access, the power bound to the Warlock cannot actually be taken away. You have been given gifts, a means to cast, and a fragment of (exoplane of choice)ish power. It may be a matter of necessity - keeping an open channel to Stygia sort of draws attention. A node of hellfire in a mortal soul is more subtle. The Warlock may have gained enough power to fuse with it. So when the patron threatens to take your power back, he's bluffing. Oh sure, he can haunt your dreams, and cause pain, and generally make you miserable, but he can't depower you. This is why we offer rewards for service. Show the stick, offer the carrot.

He can send other beings to kill you and reclaim the power. So it's no free ticket.

On this approach, you can't gain more Warlock levels without a new Patron, but you don't lose what you have.

[CaptainSarathai]

For the punishment, I think I would go for something more physical (although the idea of reducing the bonus on an existing Rod is also brilliant). I think I would go with the patron sending some other agent to battle the wayward warlock to prove he is still worthy of his boons. Perhaps something like that card from the deck of many things that sends the nemesis after you.

I love that idea. But not a demonic nemesis. Another mortal one. A sort of Strange vs. Norrel thing, 'The Prestige' style, or think Gary from the 'Pokemon' games - a recurring antagonist who isn't necessarily evil the whole time (he might be at the end) but he's obviously out to be "teacher's pet" and would happily off the other 'Lock for a shot at the title.


On the Carrot and Stick. Let me let you in on a secret:
There's this assumption that the Patron is the source of power. It's a valid assumption - but it isn't necessarily always true.

Here's a possibility: What you have learned, what you can access, the power bound to the Warlock cannot actually be taken away. You have been given gifts, a means to cast, and a fragment of (exoplane of choice)ish power. It may be a matter of necessity - keeping an open channel to Stygia sort of draws attention. A node of hellfire in a mortal soul is more subtle. The Warlock may have gained enough power to fuse with it. So when the patron threatens to take your power back, he's bluffing. Oh sure, he can haunt your dreams, and cause pain, and generally make you miserable, but he can't depower you. This is why we offer rewards for service. Show the stick, offer the carrot.

He can send other beings to kill you and reclaim the power. So it's no free ticket.

On this approach, you can't gain more Warlock levels without a new Patron, but you don't lose what you have.


That's how I generally treat my Pacts as well. But that's what I mean: lose your Patron, lose your ability to carry on levelling (or just die).
It would be fun to have a Warlock keep gaining levels, basically just on the run with stolen power.

[Douche]

While I play Warlocks quite often, and enjoy RPing that Faustian bargain, I don't think it's necessarily fair to blast the 'Lock with implications. I've never seen a Wizard actually go to a library and research her spells, or a Paladin do anything more than maintain a favorable alignment. The fact that a Warlock works for a figure who is likely against party interests, means that expecting him to RP is going to cause friction.
The other concern I have, is that it makes it very easy to railroad a Warlock. If a Paladin drops out of his oath, he gets to go Oathbreaker. That is, quite possibly, an upgrade. A Warlock has no recourse. Tick off his Patron, and he probably just gets dragged straight into the abyss.


Oh, I agree... Not everyone will want to roleplay that scenario, and there are several DMs I know that I would most certainly not give that sort of power over my character. But that would be my interpretation of the class. It should be done in such a way as to not disrupt the campaign too much, but if you make a deal with the Devil, then you should be prepared to fulfill certain obligations.

There can certainly be other interpretations of a warlock pact, or patrons that would be more friendly & send you on benign tasks, or ones that you don't know the implications of, like "go pick this package up from this X location, take it with you when you travel to the next city & drop it off at Y location.. Do not, under any circumstances, open it or try to ascertain it's contents". Just shady stuff that wouldn't involve them doing anything overtly evil or out of character, but also wouldn't give them a huge reason to deny the request.

As for roleplaying other sorts of characters, I don't know what to tell you. My cleric tries not to make judgement on his own, but rather tries to see things through the eyes of Pelor. Stuff like that is just baggage (or... accoutrements?) for all classes. Certain tropes that you probably want to follow, but I guess it's not necessary. People who play rogues tend to want to steal the spotlight & do annoying pickpocketing sequences on random nameless NPCs that make everyone stop paying attention & look at their phones til it's done. People who play Paladins impose their rigid morality on others. And warlocks, in my opinion (although this one falls more by the wayside & isn't exclusive to them, but is written into the class description so it takes precedence) have a sometimes literal devil on their shoulders, whispering to them that they should kick puppies.

[Danielqueue1]

I like a lot of suggestions here. and as a side note I have already talked to my players about negative consequences of choices they make. I have actively role-played bigotry against tieflings and players still chose to play them (both of the tieflings currently in the party have high charisma scores so that helps) I like the Idea of Rod of the Pact keeper, but I think one of the "six fundamental pillars holding the planes together" might warrant a small but significant permanent boost as well. Also for failure I was thinking about the suggestion of pact specific spells being removed and perhaps the ritual to re-summon the pact boon (tome, weapon, or familiar) would fail until restitution was made. (keep the one you have, but if you lose it, the "hungering Darkness" doesn't send you a new one)

The event hasn't happened yet, so I am still open to suggestions. and any Idea on what the restitution could be would be nice. I think I will have the option open for the character to switch patrons, but I doubt the character would take that challenging, and side-quest filled, road. wild magic sorcery might be a good fallback, but I would like an option for the character to make restitution.

P.S. this will not only affect the warlock. the cleric in the party will have something similar happen with one of the other artifacts, and the wild magic sorcerer will have opportunities to interact with sources of wild magic, we don't have a druid but I have plans for them. basically the only caster classes that are unaffected are wizard, ranger, paladin, and dragon sorcerer