Epic level builds

[Ethernil]

As per the title i am interested in builds that work from level 1 till 21+. Must be playable from the start. Using wotc books and maybe dragon magazine, no 3d party, no pathfinder, just 3.5. Preferably based on various classes for different roles and even 10 lvl prcs. Please don't just say wizard 20+ or cleric 20+, be constructive.

As a sidenote, would the Chameleon prestige class benefit from the epic feat: improved spell capacity to get access to higher level spells?

[Vaz]

Chameleon, no. It cannot qualify for feats, it would need another source to provide that qualification.

Wizard 20/Cosmic Descryer 10/Legacy Champion 10

You've now got creatures being Gated in at +20HD, and this is provided you don't go ham on the Epic Spellcasting

[AvatarVecna]

Gnome Wizard 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5. Full CL 30 casting from one of the best lists in the game, tons of metamagic combos you can pull off (including with free metamagic and metamagic reduction), taking one of the most versatile spells/classes in the game and taking it another step up, and even a way to get your Illusions to dodge around True Seeing.

Mind Flayer Illithid Savant 10 with the Leadership, Epic Leadership, and Improved Cohort feats. By lvl 25, this squidhead can eat a brain and absorb the ranks of four different skills (which aren't limited by his own level), absorb four feats, absorb three class features, and absorb two special attacks/special qualities. His cohort is an Elan Erudite 14/Thrallherd 10, whose two Thralls are a Gnome Wizard 8/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5 and an Elan Erudite 12/Thrallherd 10. Take the caster's spellcasting and the second Thrallherd's ability to attract two thralls, and the next day, four thralls show up. All of them should be Thrallherd 10s as well, as will their thralls, as will their thralls, and so on until you can no longer have Thrallherd 10s. This results in the following group: 1 ECL 25 (you), 2 ECL 24 (your cohort and primary thrall), 3 ECL 23, 5 ECL 22, 8 ECL 21, 13 ECL 20, 21 ECL 19, 34 ECL 18, 55 ECL 17, 89 ECL 16, 144 ECL 15, 233 ECL 14, and 144 ECL 13. That's 377 ECL 13/14 thralls, none of whom will fight back and none of whom are thrallherds with minions you'll lose if you eat their brains. Let the feasting begin, and your skill ranks shall reach for the moon.

Artificer X. I know you didn't want to see builds like this, but this one at least makes you work for stuff. You can't just get infinitely cheaper crafting in epic, you have to actually spend money. Of course, the amount of money you have to spend varies, and can get quite low indeed, but when "more items" is all your class features, it makes things interesting. Plus, it means you can be a super-inventor without having to be a magician, so you can be Iron Man.

[Ethernil]

So getting a base class above 21, or prestige class above 10 for bonus epic feats is not worth it? I was wondering about something like paladin above 20, using various acfs to make the class playable in a low-mid op group.

Instead of Chameleon, i suppose Factotum getting the feat twice gets access to 9th level spells. And according to how his casting works he gets 1 9th per day and the rest of his spells can be 8th or lower level at his leisure. But you would have to homebrew an epic progression for him.

[sleepyphoenixx]

So getting a base class above 21, or prestige class above 10 for bonus epic feats is not worth it? I was wondering about something like paladin above 20, using various acfs to make the class playable in a low-mid op group.

Instead of Chameleon, i suppose Factotum getting the feat twice gets access to 9th level spells. And according to how his casting works he gets 1 9th per day and the rest of his spells can be 8th or lower level at his leisure. But you would have to homebrew an epic progression for him.

Bonus epic feats are worth less than getting the class abilities of yet another powerful caster prestige class.

And Factotums don't get any spellcasting, so you have nothing that qualifies for ISC. Their Arcane Dilletante talent is a SLA.

[AvatarVecna]

So getting a base class above 21, or prestige class above 10 for bonus epic feats is not worth it? I was wondering about something like paladin above 20, using various acfs to make the class playable in a low-mid op group.

This doesn't work post-epic for the same reason it doesn't work pre-epic: Paladins suck. Not to say they're terrible, hell you might even think they're great. But even if Paladin is your favorite thing ever, you'd never take it to 20, let alone 21. This isn't limited to the Paladin, basically all classes are best left before 20--some far before 20. Most of the reason for this is that all the reasons you might want to stay in the class can be found elsewhere.

A lot of builds only take a single level of Barbarian for the pounce ACF and never look back. Others dip in for 2 levels to pick up Uncanny Dodge (and then jump into another class that gets it, so they can pick up Improved Uncanny Dodge early). Most people taking more than 2 levels are actually intending to play a Barbarian-ish character...and probably jump into a PrC after lvl 5. Or maybe they take Barbarian all the way to 11 for Greater Rage. The absolute latest I would personally stay within the Barbarian class is 14, and only if I was really desperate for the Will boost. Honestly, most of my builds would jump out at 5; all they'd get from Barbarian levels is more frequent rage (which most Barbarian PrCs give), more powerful rage (which most Barbarian PrCs give), Indomitable Will (there's lots of ways to boost Will saves), and no fatigue from raging (immunity to fatigue is pretty common, whether from being a Warforged, being Undead, dipping Horizon Walker, some more obscure feats and items, etc). There's just too many good Barbarian PrCs out there for me to even consider taking Barbarian past 20 until...I dunno, maybe level 50-60? And even then, I'd probably prefer to take some fast-casting progression class like Ur-Priest, because an epic game that far gone is probably getting pretty crazy.

Bards pretty nice all the way to 20...but Bard has soooooooo many good PrCs that aren't even particularly limiting, and they have access to a lot of PrCs that benefit non-Bards as well. Taking Bard past 20 would probably be delayed anywhere between lvl 40 and lvl 60 depending on what the build was going for.

Cleric is worth taking to 20 and on into epic, but mostly because there's not that many full-casting PrCs that benefit the cleric. They exist, sure, but it's rare that they're such an upgrade over base Cleric that they're worth going out of your way for.

Druid is worth taking to 20 and on into epic, although less so than cleric because there's more interesting Druid PrCs than there are interesting Cleric ones. Even the ones with less than full casting progression are potentially worth taking. That said, Druid 21 would have to come after a Druid 20 took 10 levels in Master Of Many Forms, at the very least.

Fighter isn't worth taking past 20. Hell, Fighter isn't worth taking past 6, and even then only in rare cases. Most builds will never take more than 2 Fighter levels, if that many. Fighter is a class that's perfect for dipping into, but it's never the focus of the build, even in mid-op. I guarantee you that whatever weird fighting style you're using, there's a PrC that's much better for it than 2 more levels of Fighter, much less 12 more levels of Fighter. It still won't be good, but it'll be better than Fighter.

Monk is similar to Fighter: nobody takes it past 20, nobody takes it to 20, nobody takes it past 6, and basically nobody takes it past 2, if they take it at all. Unlike the Fighter, there's actually a number of Monk-friendly classes/PrCs that are decent for the kind of character that takes Monk levels (Fist Of The Forest, Tattooed Monk, Kensai, Enlightened Fist, Sacred Fist, basically everything from ToB, etc.).

Paladin...honestly I wouldn't take more than 3 levels on a mid-op build, and I'd probably just take 2 as a dip. If I were playing a Paladin-centric character, though...I'd probably jump into a Paladin PrC after lvl 5. It's not good, and the alignment restriction/code of conduct isn't even the worst part of it.

Ranger is decent up to 20, and sometimes beyond. I could see a straight Ranger build doing okay. Of course, it might just be personal preference, but the best way to get me to take Ranger past 20 is to stick it after Scout 4, and make it a Swift Hunter build. Ranger has a number of PrCs that are at least worth considering, but most Swift Hunters will want to keep their Ranger levels coming to keep that Skirmish nice and high (and to pick up more Favored Enemies so they can ignore type-based immunities to precision damage).

Rogue is decent to 20, and beyond, no question about it. There's some PrCs that are potentially worth leaving Rogue for on the right build, but I'd probably stick with Rogue if I was taking it past 5. A straight Rogue will do well into epic.

Sorcerer and Wizard are pretty similar, as expected: either one is worth taking to 20 and beyond, but why would you? There's so many wonderful full-progression PrCs you can take instead, and by the time you run out of those, you might prefer to go Artificer or Cleric or something else, rather than just stacking up CL and epic bonus feats (especially since neither will be in short supply).

So, in Core, the classes worth taking to 20 are Cleric, Druid, Rogue, Sorcerer, and Wizard, with maybe Ranger as well. The classes worth taking beyond 20 are Cleric and Rogue, and only if you don't find a fitting PrC or two to go with them. Outside of Core, the only base classes that come to mind as being worth taking to 20 are Factotum, Artificer, Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade; unfortunately, the former is better off PrCing out at some point (especially without an epic progression), and the latter three have a lot of motivation to dip or PrC out far before 20, much less after, particularly with each other and the ToB PrCs. Artificer is the only non-Core class I can genuinely support taking beyond 20...and only because there's basically no good Artificer PrCs.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Cleric is worth taking to 20 and on into epic, but mostly because there's not that many full-casting PrCs that benefit the cleric. They exist, sure, but it's rare that they're such an upgrade over base Cleric that they're worth going out of your way for.
I think you switched this with Druid. The only thing you get from being a cleric past level 1 is a higher level for Turn Undead. Which most people use to fuel divine feats, so it doesn't matter.
Pretty much any PrC is an upgrade and worth taking as long as it doesn't lose casting or has ridiculous prerequisites (Runecaster, Dweomerkeeper, Radiant Servant of Pelor, Seeker of the Misty Isle, Contemplative... the list is long).
Some of them do lose casting and are still worth taking (Ordained Champion, Ruby Knight Vindicator, Malconvoker).


Druid is worth taking to 20 and on into epic, although less so than cleric because there's more interesting Druid PrCs than there are interesting Cleric ones. Even the ones with less than full casting progression are potentially worth taking. That said, Druid 21 would have to come after a Druid 20 took 10 levels in Master Of Many Forms, at the very least.
Are you sure you didn't switch this with cleric? Because there's only two PrCs that are even sidegrades (Moonspeaker, Lion of Talisid), one theurge that's hell to level without early entry but playable at high levels (Arcane Hierophant) and one horrifically overpowered abomination that no one in their right mind allows un-nerfed (Planar Shepherd).

Master of Many Forms takes your druids strongest ability - spellcasting - and dumps it entirely. Better wildshaping does not make up for that, especially considering that you can get a big chunk of it (Aberration forms) with 2 feats while keeping your casting and animal. Seriously, between the form-adding feats and what's already there with animals and plants MoMF is pretty superfluous. It's definitely not worth what it costs.
And while it is playable 1-20 the lack of casting will hurt you hard 21+. Stick to the Wildshape Ranger for it.

All the other ones lose one or more of casting, wildshaping or animal companion. Druid 20 is the staple, and it's the staple for a reason.
Druids are probably the one class that should actually contemplate staying pure in epic if you haven't prestiged out before.


Rogue is decent to 20, and beyond, no question about it. There's some PrCs that are potentially worth leaving Rogue for on the right build, but I'd probably stick with Rogue if I was taking it past 5. A straight Rogue will do well into epic.
No. Just no. A straight Rogue will not do well even before epic. Rogue 20 doesn't even give anything, so there's no point to taking it. Most rogues get in until level 3 for Penetrating Strike if they're melee and then skedaddle and never look back.


Sorcerer and Wizard are pretty similar, as expected: either one is worth taking to 20 and beyond, but why would you? There's so many wonderful full-progression PrCs you can take instead, and by the time you run out of those, you might prefer to go Artificer or Cleric or something else, rather than just stacking up CL and epic bonus feats (especially since neither will be in short supply.
Same problem as clerics really. There's absolutely no reason to stay a wizard after level 5. The only things you get are familiar progression and a few bonus feats. Prestige classes can actually give you more bonus feats or better abilities that enhance your casting by an order of magnitude.
War Weaver? Massive, massive increase in your support ability. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil? Defense like few others. Mage of the Arcane Order? Archmage? Shadowcraft Mage? Incantatrix?
Hell, there are so many good wizard PrCs that it's hard to choose, and that's if you stay in the pure caster role and don't want to gish it up.

And that goes double for Sorcerers. Not only do they not even get bonus feats, they're practically required to cherrypick a few PrCs to improve their spells known in addition to all the goodies that tempt wizards.

[AvatarVecna]

You appear to have completely missed the point I was making in my post: some classes can compete in a mid-op game (up to and including epic) without leaving the original class...and some classes cannot.


I think you switched this with Druid. The only thing you get from being a cleric past level 1 is a higher level for Turn Undead. Which most people use to fuel divine feats, so it doesn't matter.
Pretty much any PrC is an upgrade and worth taking as long as it doesn't lose casting or has ridiculous prerequisites (Runecaster, Dweomerkeeper, Radiant Servant of Pelor, Seeker of the Misty Isle, Contemplative... the list is long).
Some of them do lose casting and are still worth taking (Ordained Champion, Ruby Knight Vindicator, Malconvoker).

See, my post is about mid-op, where the point isn't squeezing every possible point out of the character and is more about building something that can compete well enough without going full bull**** cheese fight. Cleric can upgrade itself quite well with some PrCs if they fit well, but the only Cleric PrC that's even close to universally suggestible is Contemplative, because it's deity-neutral, and even that's not super-amazing. None of them are really enough of an upgrade on the basic cleric chassis to be interesting to me. They're definite upgrades, but the cleric doesn't need an upgrade to be competitive in a mid-op game, so it's a waste of mental energy unless they're pushing the class into excelling at a particular role; the only one that does that is Radiant Servant Of Pelor, which makes you into a healbot tool. Dweomerkeeper is powerful, but is also super-cheap cheese.


Are you sure you didn't switch this with cleric? Because there's only two PrCs that are even sidegrades (Moonspeaker, Lion of Talisid), one theurge that's hell to level without early entry but playable at high levels (Arcane Hierophant) and one horrifically overpowered abomination that no one in their right mind allows un-nerfed (Planar Shepherd).

Master of Many Forms takes your druids strongest ability - spellcasting - and dumps it entirely. Better wildshaping does not make up for that, especially considering that you can get a big chunk of it (Aberration forms) with 2 feats while keeping your casting and animal. Seriously, between the form-adding feats and what's already there with animals and plants MoMF is pretty superfluous. It's definitely not worth what it costs.
And while it is playable 1-20 the lack of casting will hurt you hard 21+. Stick to the Wildshape Ranger for it.

All the other ones lose one or more of casting, wildshaping or animal companion. Druid 20 is the staple, and it's the staple for a reason.
Druids are probably the one class that should actually contemplate staying pure in epic if you haven't prestiged out before.

If you'd actually read and comprehended my post, you would've seen that I only suggest taking MoMF after taking 20 levels of Druid; losing casting progression means jack diddly when all it would get you is CL upgrades (which are cheap post-epic via feats and items, so whatever). And druid PrCs are just generally more interesting to me than Cleric ones; they tend to send the Druid in a particular direction, rather than continuing the "I'm just naturally good at literally everything" that makes the game boring for the other players in mid-op.


No. Just no. A straight Rogue will not do well even before epic. Rogue 20 doesn't even give anything, so there's no point to taking it. Most rogues get in until level 3 for Penetrating Strike if they're melee and then skedaddle and never look back.

In a game where they need to compete with T1 classes? Absolutely, no player has any business taking 20+ levels in a class with no spellcasting. But in a game like what the OP is going for, where they're even considering taking Paladin past 2, much less 20? I think a straight Rogue will do just fine, even better than fine, and I said as much.


Same problem as clerics really. There's absolutely no reason to stay a wizard after level 5. The only things you get are familiar progression and a few bonus feats. Prestige classes can actually give you more bonus feats or better abilities that enhance your casting by an order of magnitude.
War Weaver? Massive, massive increase in your support ability. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil? Defense like few others. Mage of the Arcane Order? Archmage? Shadowcraft Mage? Incantatrix?
Hell, there are so many good wizard PrCs that it's hard to choose, and that's if you stay in the pure caster role and don't want to gish it up.

And that goes double for Sorcerers. Not only do they not even get bonus feats, they're practically required to cherrypick a few PrCs to improve their spells known in addition to all the goodies that tempt wizards.

Once again, you appear to have not read past the first two-thirds of the first sentence. I'll quote it for you again, and even make it nice and big for you:


Sorcerer and Wizard are pretty similar, as expected: either one is worth taking to 20 and beyond, but why would you? There's so many wonderful full-progression PrCs you can take instead, and by the time you run out of those, you might prefer to go Artificer or Cleric or something else, rather than just stacking up CL and epic bonus feats (especially since neither will be in short supply).

You seem to have either missed or ignored this part, where I point out that Sorcerers and Wizards have tons of interesting/powerful PrCs worth taking; I'm well aware of the insane versatility of Shadowcraft Mage, the power of Incantatrix, the buffing potential of War Weaver. The un-bolded part is just me acknowledging that a Wizard 20 is not, in fact, incapable of performing well in a mid-op game; all of those Sorcerer/Wizard PrCs are wonderful, but they are not strictly necessary. Taking just straight Wizard is only really a terrible idea in high-op play.

[Bad Wolf]

Chameleon, no. It cannot qualify for feats, it would need another source to provide that qualification.

Wizard 20/Cosmic Descryer 10/Legacy Champion 10

You've now got creatures being Gated in at +20HD, and this is provided you don't go ham on the Epic Spellcasting

Eh, I feel as if a Tiefling Conjurer 11/Malconvoker 9/Cosmic Descryer 10/Legacy Champion is better.

[Soranar]

An Epic warlock is pretty good due to the warlock only feats

Psionic classes (which get uncapped powers) are great too. Especially with Epic expanded knowledge.

An Epic paladin can work, but it takes some optimization. For example:

Race: Warforged
Template: Drabonborn of Bahamut (ex flight is nice and the mind aspect is pretty good too. The breath weapon becomes irrelevant at higher levels)

ACF and substitution levels

-warforged paladin (all levels)
-mystic fire knight (should all be compatible, I would even trade turn undead since you dump CHA)
-planar paladin (just take the planar mount level)

STATs

STR you need at least 13 for power attack
DEX dump
CON Important stat, triggers a lot of your abilities and defenses
INT you need at least 14 for your spells
WIS you need at least 14 for your spells
CHA dump


key feats: sword of the arcane order
key tricks: your mount (heavy warhorse) is a large magical beast (even without the template from planar paladin it's considered a magical beast but the template helps boost its BAB)

the spell alter self (and the share spells mount feature) lets your mount become a 5 headed hydra, since alter self lets you keep your STATS your mount is actually stronger than a standard hydra

your mount qualifies for mage slayer feats (mage slayer, pierce magical concealment) and get combat reflexes from the hydra form

Now for you: as a warforged you are immune to a ton of things, paladin gives you immunity to stunning, you get your CON modifier to your will saves (which you can double with a feat). You can use alter self to change into an animated object (which opens all kinds of abuse) or into a warforged charger (which is large and can use weapons)

an animated object (you can pick forms small to large) is usually rather mediocre but yours is a form of alter self so you'll likely have 30 something STR. If you need to grapple, turn into a chain made of adamantine or into a statue with several arms so you can abuse multiweapon fighting.


you get +2 caster level from class features and another +4 from practiced spellcaster so your caster level at level 20 is 16, each time you cast alter self it'll last 160 minutes (almost 3 hours), you have plenty of spellslots to make that spell last all day if need be

if your DM allows you to belong to several orders at once then pick up the feat from smite to song and turn your smites into a crazy buffs for you and your pet hydra

the bardic music also lets you qualify for epic bardic music options

[Gruftzwerg]

dunno if you actually want to play the epic build that you request.
I have a hard time to guess, what people expect when they talk about "epic". Cause you can have a epic 21lvl char so badly optimized that a optimized lvl 10 could take him out and you could have pun-puns power lvl even before epic (<21).

If it's just a theoretical exercise and you are looking for power level of pun-pun, have a look at "BoBaFeat".

Otherwise a bit more info about the expected optimization lvl of the group or a few examples of what your teammates build would be helpful. epic power lvl is even more unbalanced as 3.5 already is. So knowing the expected optimization level is mandatory imho.

[Vaz]

Eh, I feel as if a Tiefling Conjurer 11/Malconvoker 9/Cosmic Descryer 10/Legacy Champion is better.

No real need for any of those when you're an Epic Wizard. Even an Incantatrix Loses its lustre when you've got instantaneous duration buffs.

[Ethernil]

Bonus epic feats are worth less than getting the class abilities of yet another powerful caster prestige class.

And Factotums don't get any spellcasting, so you have nothing that qualifies for ISC. Their Arcane Dilletante talent is a SLA.

I believe we can agree that both factotum and chameleon are badly written. What I get out of the class spellcasting is that you cast prepared spells and apply metamagic as such when preparing. Also regular spell like abilities are not limited to light armor without arcane spell failure. So they basically say it is both spells and spell like abilities that you cast in some twisted way. If they are spell like abilities they should not provoke attacks of opportunity as well.

On a different page, I found the epic warlock and binder feats probably make taking those classes to epic much worth it.