Kraagor's Tomb's final defence

[torru369]

Every gate thus far has had one ultimate defence mechanism. Running theme of them is that the Scribblers made them themselves. Personally I think it would be just like Rich to make the Mitd reveal itself as something else then the Tarrasque appears as the final enemy in front of the gate but the self made bit makes that a little unlikely. Is there a way to homebrew a monster with the collective strengths of several high level monsters?

[snowblizz]

Every gate thus far has had one ultimate defence mechanism. Running theme of them is that the Scribblers made them themselves. Personally I think it would be just like Rich to make the Mitd reveal itself as something else then the Tarrasque appears as the final enemy in front of the gate but the self made bit makes that a little unlikely. Is there a way to homebrew a monster with the collective strengths of several high level monsters?

Per definition homebrewing means you do whatever.

But Rich has made a point of this not being the case. The MitD is an actual existing thing Rich did not make up, which homebrewing a mishmash monster would be. Do not orecldue it being someone elses mishmash of monster though...

[Kish]

I'm not even sure what you're asking. How do you get from "the creature in the darkness is Something Else, i.e., not the tarrasque" to "he must be homebrewed"?

[torru369]

I don't think you got what I was trying to say.

Every Gate has had there own ultimate defense. And every defense has been an original creation by the Scribblers. I was just positing that Rich would troll everyone by introducing the Tarrasque right after the Mitd revealed itself to be something else.

[Kish]

I said that I didn't get what you were trying to say, so yes.

Can you explain this part?
but the self made bit makes that a little unlikely. Is there a way to homebrew a monster with the collective strengths of several high level monsters?

Oh wait, I think I might get it. You're saying that Serini probably couldn't have built a tarrasque, but might have constructed some kind of Frankenstein's monster monster as the final guardian of Kraagor's gate (unrelated to the creature in the darkness)?

[factotum]

I don't think Tarrasque is likely to be the final defence of Kraagor's Gate. Narrative requirements are that the final defence of the gate has to be something that Xykon could conceivably beat in a fight, or else there's no threat and no danger. I don't think even Xykon, scary as he is, could beat a Tarrasque in a one-on-one fight.

[EternalMelon]

I don't think Tarrasque is likely to be the final defence of Kraagor's Gate. Narrative requirements are that the final defence of the gate has to be something that Xykon could conceivably beat in a fight, or else there's no threat and no danger. I don't think even Xykon, scary as he is, could beat a Tarrasque in a one-on-one fight.
A Tarrasque is CR 20. Xykon is epic leveled (>20). Even if he couldn't just blast it's Non-lethal damage higher than Belkar's kill count I'm sure he or Redcloak can find a scroll of grease somewhere.

On further reflection Xykon might not have the ammo necessary to pose a large threat to the Tarrasque. But the reverse is also true.

[torru369]

Narrative themes state that all cards will be on the table during the battle of Kraagor's Tomb. So we will probably get the Mitd revealing itself in there somewhere.

Anyway I see the final defense either as the Tarrasque or a Frankenmonster. My two cents.

[littlebum2002]

This thread is now my favorite forum prediction of all time.



Narrative themes state that all cards will be on the table during the battle of Kraagor's Tomb. So we will probably get the Mitd revealing itself in there somewhere.

Some people, actually, have speculated that THIS book will end at Kraagor's tomb, and the next book (with the final showdown) will instead happen at Xykon's lair. I mean, it's kind of a stretch, but considering we're already seeing Kraagor's gate, it's a possibility.

However, considering we've never had two gate-related books back to back, it's also possible that it won't happen until the next book and your theory will then certainly come to fruition.

[Jay R]

New speculation, based on this thread.

Assumptions:
1. The MitD's creature type will be revealed at some time, and it will be a dramatic revelation.
2. The final climax could very easily be at Kraagor's gate, and a major climax will almost certainly occur there.
3. Kraagor's gate is guarded by an extremely large number of very powerful creatures.

Speculative conclusion: The final guardian of Kraagor's gate will turn out to be the same species as MitD - and possibly his father.

[nleseul]

Speculative conclusion: The final guardian of Kraagor's gate will turn out to be the same species as MitD - and possibly his father.

It occurs to me that there would have been a massive worldwide effort by Serini and her agents to capture and imprison powerful monsters in Kraagor's dungeon. It's definitely in the author's style to explore the harm done to the monsters in question by such a campaign. So it's entirely possible that MitD's being abandoned in a jungle while his father got captured by Serini would fit in with that.

[Diashi]

So it's entirely possible that MitD's being abandoned in a jungle while his father got captured by Serini would fit in with that.
Now THAT is a Twist. Elan will see right through it though.

[Kornaki]

It's Kraagor's tomb, but it's Serin's gate. The final test will be proving your trust in the power friendship or something else equally off the wall.

[137beth]

I don't think Tarrasque is likely to be the final defence of Kraagor's Gate. Narrative requirements are that the final defence of the gate has to be something that Xykon could conceivably beat in a fight, or else there's no threat and no danger. I don't think even Xykon, scary as he is, could beat a Tarrasque in a one-on-one fight.

The Tarrassque is immune to most of Xykon's go-to spells. If it came down to a Xykon vs T fight, though, I'd expect Xykon to whip out some ability-drain spell (maybe epic, or maybe just a mid-level spell we haven't seen him use yet) and drain the Tarrasque into a non-threatening state (the Tarrasque is not immune to ability drain for some reason, despite being immune to ability damage and energy drain.) The main reason I'd expect Xykon to trounce the Tarrasque is because Xykon is an important character in the story, and the Tarrasque isn't.

Which, IMO, means it's more likely the Tarrasque won't show up at all. Or if it does show up, it won't be the "final" defense of the gate.

[keybounce]

It's Kraagor's tomb, but it's Serin's gate. The final test will be proving your trust in the power friendship or something else equally off the wall.

Can you imagine V doing a Twilight-style description of the other members of the order, and how they represent aspects of friendship, and then trying to describe V's aspect?

(I mean unicorns, not vampires.)

[Snails]

It occurs to me that there would have been a massive worldwide effort by Serini and her agents to capture and imprison powerful monsters in Kraagor's dungeon. It's definitely in the author's style to explore the harm done to the monsters in question by such a campaign. So it's entirely possible that MitD's being abandoned in a jungle while his father got captured by Serini would fit in with that.

That makes sense. I like that it has potential explanatory power, regarding why there are peculiarities about the MitD (e.g. why alone in a jungle, why has he seen the Astral plane, why was X surprised he has seen the Astral plane, etc.)

On the Serini was, after all, epic in power and presumably a bit of a trickster. It is not actually absurd that could trick the Tarrasque into being a guardian. I does not quite feel on theme to me, as the Tarrasque is not something any group in the Gate race could actually beat, and thus would need to be lured away by trickery, rather be primarily a test of strength.

On a general note, I think it is quite plausible that the Giant would purposefully seed incorrect top contenders for the MitD in this dungeon, for the inside joke value. Any creature that is a top contender would be physically strong enough to be attractive enough to Serini.

[Snails]

It's Kraagor's tomb, but it's Serin's gate. The final test will be proving your trust in the power friendship or something else equally off the wall.

I find your reasoning persuasive.

Clearly the Giant has chosen to keep the mystery of the details of the Scribbler intraparty turmoil occluded. He could have revealed all by now, but decided to hold back key details for the right moment.

The Order has been making steady progress in terms of building trust. It would make sense that the final test is not merely better teamwork to be more effective, but accepting a choice out of friendship that is personally lethal, or something similar. Kraagor's tomb would be a fitting venue.

[Emanick]

On the Serini was, after all, epic in power and presumably a bit of a trickster. It is not actually absurd that could trick the Tarrasque into being a guardian. I does not quite feel on theme to me, as the Tarrasque is not something any group in the Gate race could actually beat, and thus would need to be lured away by trickery, rather be primarily a test of strength.

That actually does seem "on theme" to me - not necessarily in line with Serini's intent (although she was a rogue, IIRC), but quite possibly in line with how The Giant wants the storyline to go.

[Ruck]

I find your reasoning persuasive.

Clearly the Giant has chosen to keep the mystery of the details of the Scribbler intraparty turmoil occluded. He could have revealed all by now, but decided to hold back key details for the right moment.

The Order has been making steady progress in terms of building trust. It would make sense that the final test is not merely better teamwork to be more effective, but accepting a choice out of friendship that is personally lethal, or something similar. Kraagor's tomb would be a fitting venue.

Indeed, when you phrase it like that,

I would not be surprised to see at the end that each Order has lost a short barbarian to stop the Snarl. The difference will be that Kraagor died at Soon's command, which tore the Scribblers apart, while Belkar will willingly sacrifice himself, for reasons yet undetermined, and that will cause the OOTS to succeed.)

[Snails]

Indeed, when you phrase it like that,

I would not be surprised to see at the end that each Order has lost a short barbarian to stop the Snarl. The difference will be that Kraagor died at Soon's command, which tore the Scribblers apart, while Belkar will willingly sacrifice himself, for reasons yet undetermined, and that will cause the OOTS to succeed.)

Hmmm...yes.

If there is a personal sacrifice required, Belkar is the most promising candidate IMHO.

Both V and Roy would be too obvious -- they would both willing do for it for the team, so the situation would be most interesting if they are thwarted in the effort.

Elan and Haley are not really allowed, due to prophecy.

In a sense Durkon has already stood up and died for the team, when faced with Malack. A repeat performance is very unlikely (even if Durkon may not survive in some other dramatic way).

That leaves Belkar. Belkar's state of mind is in sufficient flux that he could easily act on an insight that he himself may not fully understand.

[NecroDancer]

If the final defense is trust-based then maybe that factor will finally cause tMitD (or Redcloak) to turn on Xykon and the order enters the tomb to see an all out brawl between the members of team evil.

[8-foot Dwarf]

From what I can tell, Redcloak wouldn't ever turn on Xykon unless/until a)The ritual for the Snarl has been complete and Xykon realises he can't control it or b)Xykon figures out the truth about the ritual and that he can't control the snarl. The Creature in the Darkness (which no-one knows what it is, maybe even the creator doesn't know) will possible (likely) turn on Xykon and Redcloak at a certain time likkkeeee when Lien and Mr.Stiffly and spotted and Xykon is about to kill them both, The Monster in the Darkness will reveal what he is and save them. After perhaps he will destroy Xykon proving how powerful he is (probably not the defence serene had but still). As a last stand/defence serene could have the gate surrounded by an impenetrable force or thing thus making Xykon either a)Use the Creature in the Darkness or b)Somehow use Roy's sword (wait for him first) to get through or c)I'm actually not sure what else there is (all of this is obviously after Xykon and Redcloak have tried all their efforts to break through). Maybe it will be a field like Dorukan's, the one that if anyone evil touches it they die (what if you're True neutral). All of this will provide time for Roy to defeat vampire Durkon and get to Xykon in time to save the day like usual

[SlashDash]

From what I can tell, Redcloak wouldn't ever turn on Xykon unless/until a)The ritual for the Snarl has been complete and Xykon realises he can't control it or b)Xykon figures out the truth about the ritual and that he can't control the snarl.
Or C - Redcloak thinks Xykon is no longer helpful to him. As Redcloak have said before killing Tsukiko, he considers himself the puppet master pulling Xykon's strings because it suits the Dark One's plan. If he would have a better option, he would go for it. Though I doubt it will



The Creature in the Darkness (which no-one knows what it is, maybe even the creator doesn't know) will possible (likely) turn on Xykon and Redcloak at a certain time likkkeeee when Lien and Mr.Stiffly and spotted and Xykon is about to kill them both, The Monster in the Darkness will reveal what he is and save them.
Not likely. If you've read start of darkness then you should know that

Xykon cast a geas on the monster telling him to swallow Red Cloak and spit his holy symbol if Redcloak ever betrays him. It's possible the author put that in because Xykon has some suspicion of Redcloak, but it's more likely that it's forshadowing for Redcloak betraying Xykon first.



All of this will provide time for Roy to defeat vampire Durkon and get to Xykon in time to save the day like usual
I'm thinking completely opposite -

Roy will defeat Vampire Durkon first. This means Hel fails the vote, but the world isn't safe yet. Loki said that they aren't voting to "not destroy the world" but rather give the mortals one last chance to finish things on their own. Loki himself said that worst case scenario, they can destroy the world in 10 minutes if they wanted to before things get out of hand.

Therefore, Hel's best move would be to make sure Xykon succeeds or at least make the other gods fear that he would do them absolute harm. As a result, they'll re-vote to destroy the world and she wins.

So... If Roy stops the vote, Durkon would likely try and make it to team evil. Xykon made it clear that he prefers the company of undead to mortals, so he'll toss Redcloak (who again, still betting to betray Xykon and die) aside and put Durkon instead.

Many reject this idea because Durkon doesn't know the ritual that Redcloak does - but we don't know that for a fact. For all we know, he does know the ritual or a new ritual or heck, he could just bluff his way just to freak the gods out.




But of course... That's just my idea. It's not really based on anything but random guessing.

[Kish]

Thirty gold says Redcloak's role in the comic outlasts Vampire Durkon's.

[factotum]

Or C - Redcloak thinks Xykon is no longer helpful to him. As Redcloak have said before killing Tsukiko, he considers himself the puppet master pulling Xykon's strings because it suits the Dark One's plan. If he would have a better option, he would go for it.

I think Redcloak is far too deep into the sunk cost fallacy to split from Xykon for that reason. If he did so, he would be tacitly admitting that he'd made a mistake joining with him in the first place, and the many goblinoids who have died as a result of that* would have died for nothing.

*

Including Redcloak's own younger brother, killed at his own hands to prevent him attempting a sneak attack on Xykon.

[Snails]

Open betrayal between X and RC will not occur before the goal is literally within sight.

Xykon is savvy enough to always give Redcloak reason to believe he will work his end of the plan. Xykon has no reason to back out of a plan that he believes will give him control over a Gate.

Since Redcloak knows that the Ritual itself betrays Xykon, Redcloak does not care much about the likelihood of betrayal by Xykon after the Ritual.

They are both committed to race to the same goal together. Xykon thinks he is powerful enough to end the relationship on his terms, if he so chooses, after their quest is finished. Xykon happens to be twice wrong about the endgame.

[Noodz]

So... If Roy stops the vote, Durkon would likely try and make it to team evil. Xykon made it clear that he prefers the company of undead to mortals, so he'll toss Redcloak (who again, still betting to betray Xykon and die) aside and put Durkon instead.

Many reject this idea because Durkon doesn't know the ritual that Redcloak does - but we don't know that for a fact. For all we know, he does know the ritual or a new ritual or heck, he could just bluff his way just to freak the gods out.



My speculations:
There's also another wrinkle: we all know Hel has a chip on her shoulder regarding her exclusion from the northern pantheon, thus she concocted a plan revolving around dwarven honor and the threat of the Snarl to take the power she want by force. That plan is currently underway, and Roy is out to thwart her.

When Roy inevitably foils Hel's plan, she can still try another angle: by consuming Durkon's memories, Greg (and thus, Hel) learned that two high level casters, one arcane and one divine, can harness the power of the Gate to control the Snarl. And if the Dark One can come up with such a ritual, it's very likely Hel can also come up with something, even if it is something rushed.

Thus, should Greg survive, Hel could very well send him to negotiate a deal with Xykon, giving him an alternative to Redcloak. It would be the Xykon/Redcloak/Tsukiko dynamic once again, only this time the third party is a very competent manipulator, and has the full support of a very active goddess.

The reason why i "want" this to happen is that i have a hunch/desire to see the Order and Redcloak/The Dark One forced into cooperation against Xykon. Redcloak being a slave to the sunken cost fallacy can only make dramatic sense if in the very end, he abandons it.