Suggestions for a drow archer type build.

[Incarnate]

Hey good people of GiantITP.

I just had a new player join my group where not completely sure of the various solutions there are.
Currently I know that she insists on playing a drow and that she wants to play some kind of archer that magically can affect her ranged weapon or its ammo, through magical means or supernatural abilities. Though she would prefer avoiding spellcasting, so that kind off takes alot of possibilities away, so that leaves only spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities left to use. I know she's going to play an evil aligned character.

The game is taking place in the Forgotten Realms and the players have access to almost all material there is, with a few exceptions.
LA-Buyoff is possible and the players start at level 9 (LA included).

My initial thought was basically to just make a ranger type character, with emphasis on bows, supply it with relevant magic equipment and weapons - but it's just too simple.

So guys what builds would you guys recommend?
I recall the LA for Drow is +2, so that leaves 7 levels to play with, or 8 if LA-Buyoff is used.

Thanks guys :)

[Eldariel]

Could just play Lesser Drow [PGtF] to remove the LA entirely. Magic can always be refluffed; it's very hard to get non-spell spells on your arrows. That would only leave Psionics or Factotum (which strictly speaking casts SLAs), more or less. And Factotum lacks the daily spell endowment to properly do the job. I'd just recommend looking into Cleric-, Bard- or Wizard-based Archer (Bard/Sublime Chord build can even fit the 2-level dip of Arcane Archer to get Imbue Arrow for more versatility on the bow/arrow combination) and talking to her about the options of fluffing it as desired

[Incarnate]

Could just play Lesser Drow [PGtF] to remove the LA entirely. Magic can always be refluffed; it's very hard to get non-spell spells on your arrows. That would only leave Psionics or Factotum (which strictly speaking casts SLAs), more or less. And Factotum lacks the daily spell endowment to properly do the job. I'd just recommend looking into Cleric-, Bard- or Wizard-based Archer (Bard/Sublime Chord build can even fit the 2-level dip of Arcane Archer to get Imbue Arrow for more versatility on the bow/arrow combination) and talking to her about the options of fluffing it as desired

I think the easiest would just be to give her Arcane Archer and re-flavour it to suit her needs. So instead of it being spells thats being cast, its just more a kind of supernatural ability of sorts (but technically still spells/magic in terms of game mechanics).

But I want her to have something thats a little less standard, because she's quite an experienced roleplayer. So say we include spellcasting for the purposes of being able to affect bow and arrow magically, either arcane or divine and that either can work with any PrC that requires any of those.

Another option could be to let shoot rays/beams - which I think could be kind of cool, since not many would do this but could prove quite effective from the perspective that you're ranged only.

[Bad Wolf]

Soulknife/Soulbow maybe?

[gorfnab]

If this was Pathfinder I would suggest the Path of War Stalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/stalker) using maneuvers from Solar Wind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/solar-wind-maneuvers) and Tempest Gale (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/tempest-gale-maneuvers). Actually you might be able to use a Swordsage from Tomb of Battle and switch out two discipline schools for these instead. Or you could use either one of these homebrew range attack based disciplines: Falling Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?192596-The-Warrior-s-Way-Rebalancing-Blade-and-Bow&p=10640971#post10640971) and Falling Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?10707-Maneuvers-Falling-Star-Discipline).

Otherwise if you don't mind a little magic, how about a Duskblade Arcane Archer build based off the one listed as Susan found here (http://web.archive.org/web/20150227012520/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.20).



Susan the Arcane Archer

Duskblade 5/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Arcane Archer 10

Fire Elf(+2 Dex, +2 Int, –2 Con,–2 Cha)

Elf, Fire(an elf with an ancestor from the Elemental Plane of Fire)(UA p17)
+2 Dex, +2 Int, –2 Con,–2 Cha
Fav Class: Wizard
• Medium Size
• 30’ movement
• Immunity to magic sleep
• +2 Racial bonus on Listen, Search, & Spot checks.
• Automatic Search check if an Elf passes within 5’ of a secret or concealed door
• Low-light Vision
• Automatic proficiency with all straight Bows
• Automatic proficiency with Longsword and Rapier
• +2 Racial bonus to saves vs. Enchantments
• +1 Racial bonus on attacks vs. creatures with the (water) subtype.
• –2 penalty on all saving throws vs. the spell, spelllike abilities, & supernatural abilities that have the (water) subtype or are generated by creatures with the (water) subtype.
• Resistance to Fire 5.


Attributes(32 point buy):
24 Str (14+4 Inherent(arm) +6 Item)
34 Dex (16 +5 levels +5 Inherent +2 Racial +6 Item)
18 Con (14 +6 Item -2 racial)
24 Int (16 +2 Racial +6 Item)
14 Wis (8 +6 Item)
12 Cha (8 +6 Item-2 racial)



Feats:

Combat Casting(Duskblade bonus)
1st lvl: Weapon Finnesse
3rd lvl: Weapon Focus(longbow)
6th lvl: Point blank Shot
9th lvl: Precise Shot
12th lvl: Rapid Shot
15th lvl: Woodland Archer
18th lvl: Skewering Foe(Champions of Ruin)

BAB +20
20th Caster level
spells: 6/8/7/3

Melee Attack bonus= BAB+20 +12 Dex+ 5 Enhancement +1 Haste= +38
Ranged Attack bonus= BAB+20 +12 Dex+2 Competence +5 Enhancement+1 Haste-2 Rapid shot= +38

Full Attack:
Melee: +38/+38/+33/+28/+25+special: if she misses on any Attack, add +2 to the next attack
Ranged: +38/+38/+38/+33/+28/+23 +special: if she misses on the any attack, add +6 attack to next attacks

Ranged Special: each attack splits... giving this attack sequence:
:+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23

Damage:
Melee=Rapier +1d6(3.5) +5 Enhancement(GMW cast by party member) +7 Str+1d6(3.5) vampiric+1 point Con damage+ Special(Spell channeled)= ave 14 +1 point Con damage each hit , if all hit = 70 damage + 5 Con/ Round
Spells Channeled
can channel extended Chilling Touch to give 40d6 damage+ 40 Str damage(Fort negates DC 18)

Can channel Vampiric Touch to give 10d6 damage and gain Temp hp

Ranged= Composite Longbow Arrow+1d8+5 Enhancement +7 Str+ 1 Competence = average 17 Damage each arrow..... if all hit = 204 damage/ Round ......maybe not a record, but more than adequate for most any situation.... this applies to ANY opponent...and every arrow after the first Hit gains 1d6 damage(Skewering attack)so average damage could be 237/rd

can Imbue Arrow with Doom Scarabs to add 10d6 Damage(No Save, No SR)

Equipment

99400gp +1 Accurate Splitting Force Elvencraft Composite(+7 Str) Longbow
103600gp +1 Accurate Vampiric Wounding Eager Dwarvencraft Starmetal Rapier
22400 gp Celestial Armor

40000gp Paralyzing Arm Graft(+4 Inherent to Str)
137000gp +5 Inherent to Attributes
25000gp Greater bracers of Archery(+2 Competence Att, +1 Damage)
200000gp +6 Belt of Magnificense
21000gp Mask of Insightful detection
3500gp Lense of detection
20,000 gp Ring of Invisibility
2000gp Ring of the Darkhidden
2000gp Handy haversack
3600gp 2x Efficient Quiver
12000gp Boots of Speed
10000gp 2xGlove of Storing
6000gp 2x Rod of Extend

36036gp

Intelligence-based Spontaneous Arcane Spells(PH2 p24)


Intelligence-based Spontaneous Arcane Spells(PH2 p24)

0th Level
Acid Splash(PH p196) – Orb deals 1d3 damage.
Disrupt Undead(PH p223) – Deals 1d6 damage to one undead.


1st Level

Chill Touch(PH p209) – 1 touch per level deals 1d6 damage and possibly 1 Strength damage.
Jump(PH p246) – Subject gains bonus on Jump checks.
Obscuring Mist(PH p258) – Fog surrounds you.
Resist Energy(PH p246) – Ignores the first 10 (or more) points of damage per attack from a specified energy type.
True Strike(PH p296) – Add +20 insight bonus to your next attack roll.

2nd Level

Dimension Hop(PH2 p110) – Teleport subject short distance.
Melf’s Acid Arrow(PH p253) – Ranged touch attack; 2d4 acid damage for 1 round + 1 round per 3 levels (7 rounds max).
See Invisibility(PH p275) – Reveals invisible creatures or objects.
Touch of Idiocy(PH p294) – Subject takes 1d6 Intelligence, Wisdom & Charisma damage.


why is this Arcane archer/ Duskblade so great ...... she can switch from ranged to Melee as a free action(gloves of storing) ..... and do great damage in either Combat mode.... see above(237/rd Ranged, 70+5 Con/rd+ Spell channeled)

She gets +20 BAB and 20th lvl Caster all the time, without feats(practiced caster) or items(Ioun Stones) .

this build is very self sufficient and can help any party in any environment

Although some feel the Arcane Archer is Sub-Par .... it can be seen by this build.... it can still Kick Butt with the best.... it does not rely on getting within 30'(like Swift Hunter builds) but can do its ranged damage @ ANY Range

EPIC ready character, that is very easy to use and Survivable at all levels, and contributes meaningfully to any party

[Incarnate]

How about a Duskblade Arcane Archer build based off the one listed as Susan found here (http://web.archive.org/web/20150227012520/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.20).


This looks pretty badass, however her total character level is only level 9, so the build has to meet her needs of the bat. I guess it could be Duskblade/Arcane Archer without the Abjurant Champion and probably still would be viable?

Currently I'm considering to do a cleric/arcane archer build where I'm waiving/changing the requirement for arcane spells, to be either arcane or divine.
Then let fluff the spells to be more like spell-like abilities and then give her character an ability to turn any mastercrafted bow into a personal weapon that will function like a bow of spell-energy. (Though they will function just like as if they had been cast).

The Bow of Spell-energy:
+1 to hit | Damage is based on actual weapon +1/Cleric Level.
Can Infuse spells into its attacks.
Unlimited ammo

Suggestions for this weapon is appreciated.

I have also been looking into other alternatives, like Binder and Runecaster.
Theming it with elemental magic is also a possibility.

[Darrin]

This looks pretty badass, however her total character level is only level 9, so the build has to meet her needs of the bat. I guess it could be Duskblade/Arcane Archer without the Abjurant Champion and probably still would be viable?


I would strongly consider insisting she use the Savage Progression Drow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) or the Lesser Planetouched Drow (in PGtF). At the level she'll be starting at, those two levels that get sucked up by LA +2 will be crippling: the BAB, HP, skill points, etc. she loses out on will turn her character into more of a liability than a functioning member of the party.

As far as Arcane Archer goes, the Imbue Arrow ability works with both arcane and divine spells, so as-written a one-level dip into Duskblade satisfies the arcane spellcasting requirement. The rest of the levels can be cleric. However, if you're just looking for a way to "cast spells with a bow", then Cleric/Ordained Champion + Elvencraft Bow (which counts as a melee weapon) might be a better way to go.



The Bow of Spell-energy:
+1 to hit | Damage is based on actual weapon +1/Cleric Level.
Can Infuse spells into its attacks.
Unlimited ammo

Suggestions for this weapon is appreciated.


Hank's Energy Bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) is usually considered the gold standard for archers. But if you can use the bow to imbue spells into it, then I guess you wouldn't need to bother with Arcane Archer?

[Ezekiul]

What kind of "magic" is she wanting to do with these arrows? Does she want it to do like charm person/hold person or elemental damage? Does she want arrows that can phase through walls or turn corners? Is she just looking to imbue drow spell-likes or is she trying to get more spell-likes?

If she's looking for something different than an Arcane Archer this information will help

[gorfnab]

I guess it could be Duskblade/Arcane Archer without the Abjurant Champion and probably still would be viable?

The fifth level ability of the Abjurant Champion sets CL to equal BAB, this keeps the damage from the spells being imbued relevant throughout the lat game. Otherwise they would be capped at whatever CL the Duskblade levels left off at since Arcane Archer does not advance CL.

[Incarnate]

What kind of "magic" is she wanting to do with these arrows? Does she want it to do like charm person/hold person or elemental damage? Does she want arrows that can phase through walls or turn corners? Is she just looking to imbue drow spell-likes or is she trying to get more spell-likes?

If she's looking for something different than an Arcane Archer this information will help

As I understand it (after speaking with her again), she wants to cast her spells/use special abilities through the bow, but really isn't interested in spellcasting as such.
From my understanding she only wants like 5-7 special/supernatural abilities. The spell effects she was interested in was similar to these spells:
- Light
- Bane
- Bless
- Dancing Lights (but more like fireworks).
- Glitterdust
- Protection from *
- Inflict Wounds.
- Command
- etc.

In general she wanted supportive spells/special abilities, and a few offensive ones - although it doens't really chime with a character with an evil alignment. So I had her reconsider what she actually wanted to play. Which is now, a spellcaster proficient with bow, one that seeks to hurt her opponents, spells that are mostly self-beneficial but still with a handful of supportive spells.

I'm going to use either Savage drow progression or the lesser drow race. The class I'm a bit unsure of as I don't want it to be a "too standard" type character. She now says proficient with bow, I think it can't hurt to make her character a little better than just proficient?

She was also interested in an animial companion much like a familiar.

[Troacctid]

I suggest a Demonbinder Warlock. She can use her bow to fire laser beams as if they were arrows (which is mechanically identical to a regular eldritch blast, but it looks cooler), and she gets a nice assortment of magical abilities.

[Telonius]

Seconding Warlock. Making Warlock into an "arcane archer" through re-fluffing is one of my favorite fixes.

[barakaka]

I suggest a Demonbinder Warlock. She can use her bow to fire laser beams as if they were arrows (which is mechanically identical to a regular eldritch blast, but it looks cooler), and she gets a nice assortment of magical abilities.

Hellfire Warlock could be added if she decides she needs tons o' damage, but for a price... All of these are pretty flavourful for a drow. Plus with the blast shapes, you can have stupidly long range or bouncing arcane energy rays.

[Incarnate]

Very interesting.

She's intrigued. She's now asking if it's possible to become a demon, and if so, how?
Since I'm the DM I can make it happen, but obviously I'm not just going to snap my fingers and make it so, I would be more inclined to make more subtle changes.

If going for becoming a demon/devil/fiend - then what would be some great builds - keep in mind, she's begins at level 9.
If going for the demonbinder?

She also asked, if one could do a combination between becoming a demon & undead? Which I guess is possible but from what I know, if one would become demon first but then undead, one would lose the demon part?

[Darrin]

She also asked, if one could do a combination between becoming a demon & undead? Which I guess is possible but from what I know, if one would become demon first but then undead, one would lose the demon part?

I'd steer her towards Savage Progression Tiefling (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) (Dex bonus so good for TWF or archery) and then if she wants to add undead, Necropolitan (Libris Mortis).

[Troacctid]

She's intrigued. She's now asking if it's possible to become a demon, and if so, how?
Since I'm the DM I can make it happen, but obviously I'm not just going to snap my fingers and make it so, I would be more inclined to make more subtle changes.
This is possible for any character via the Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) template class. It's not super powerful, but it could be used to top off the build at high levels once you've already got your best invocations. I'd strongly advise against taking it early on though. Think of it as a capstone; once you attain enough power, you begin to transform into a demon.

There are also some other prestige classes that can turn you into a demon or a part-demon. Off the top of my head, Acolyte of the Skin from Complete Arcane (underpowered, do not recommend), Fiend-Blooded from Heroes of Horror (for sorcerers), and Tainted from Dragon #302 (better suited for non-casters). But I would just go with Demonbinder. It's very cool and it does its thing well.


If going for becoming a demon/devil/fiend - then what would be some great builds - keep in mind, she's begins at level 9.
Warlock 5/Demonbinder (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3) 10/Hellfire Warlock (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3) 3/Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) 2

Race, from best to worst: Savage Progression Drow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) (do not take racial levels) > Lesser Drow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=2) > Half-Drow or Deepwyrm Half-Drow. Optionally, you could add Dragonborn to any of them.

Least invocations: baleful utterance, beguiling influence, and either dark one's own luck, darkness, or otherworldly whispers.
Lesser invocations: Pick two of charm, the dead walk, relentless dispelling, fell flight, eldritch chain, and flee the scene; then take brimstone blast because it's required for Hellfire Warlock.
Greater: You won't get these for a few more levels, but when you do, I recommend chilling tentacles, noxious blast, and eldritch cone.

For feats:
Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar (quasit): This gives you an extra demonic companion. Very powerful and very thematic. A must-have, IMO.
Fiendish Heritage + Fiendish Legacy: Actually not super-powerful, but it's fine and it reinforces the theme. If you have any key invocations that require saving throws, such as charm, you can also pick up Fiendish Power.
Quicken Spell-Like Ability: Allows you to use your demonbind as a swift action instead of a full-round action. Important for action economy. You don't want to waste a whole round at the start of combat if you can avoid it. Not available until higher levels.

Ability scores: CHA > INT > CON/DEX > WIS > STR

Skills: Spellcraft, Concentration, and Use Magic Device should be maxed. You'll also need 12 points in Knowledge (the planes), 4 in Sense Motive and Bluff, and 6 in Intimidate to meet prestige class requirements. You're at 2 + INT skill points per level, so you will need a high INT to do all this.


If going for the demonbinder?
Same thing, but don't take the Half-Fiend levels.


She also asked, if one could do a combination between becoming a demon & undead? Which I guess is possible but from what I know, if one would become demon first but then undead, one would lose the demon part?
Not possible AFAIK. Demons are outsiders, undead are undead. Two different creature types. You can't have both at the same time.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Not possible AFAIK. Demons are outsiders, undead are undead. Two different creature types. You can't have both at the same time.

The closest you can get are lichfiends. They are evil outsiders who found a way to undergo lichdom. They are still undead, but retain some vestige of their fiendish power with their DR being Bludgeoning and Good instead of Bludgeoning and Magic.

[Incarnate]

Quote"Troacctid" =
This is possible for any character via the Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) template class. It's not super powerful, but it could be used to top off the build at high levels once you've already got your best invocations. I'd strongly advise against taking it early on though. Think of it as a capstone; once you attain enough power, you begin to transform into a demon.

There are also some other prestige classes that can turn you into a demon or a part-demon. Off the top of my head, Acolyte of the Skin from Complete Arcane (underpowered, do not recommend), Fiend-Blooded from Heroes of Horror (for sorcerers), and Tainted from Dragon #302 (better suited for non-casters). But I would just go with Demonbinder. It's very cool and it does its thing well.


Warlock 5/Demonbinder (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3) 10/Hellfire Warlock (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3) 3/Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) 2

Race, from best to worst: Savage Progression Drow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) (do not take racial levels) > Lesser Drow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=2) > Half-Drow or Deepwyrm Half-Drow. Optionally, you could add Dragonborn to any of them.

Least invocations: baleful utterance, beguiling influence, and either dark one's own luck, darkness, or otherworldly whispers.
Lesser invocations: Pick two of charm, the dead walk, relentless dispelling, fell flight, eldritch chain, and flee the scene; then take brimstone blast because it's required for Hellfire Warlock.
Greater: You won't get these for a few more levels, but when you do, I recommend chilling tentacles, noxious blast, and eldritch cone.

For feats:
Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar (quasit): This gives you an extra demonic companion. Very powerful and very thematic. A must-have, IMO.
Fiendish Heritage + Fiendish Legacy: Actually not super-powerful, but it's fine and it reinforces the theme. If you have any key invocations that require saving throws, such as charm, you can also pick up Fiendish Power.
Quicken Spell-Like Ability: Allows you to use your demonbind as a swift action instead of a full-round action. Important for action economy. You don't want to waste a whole round at the start of combat if you can avoid it. Not available until higher levels.

Ability scores: CHA > INT > CON/DEX > WIS > STR

Skills: Spellcraft, Concentration, and Use Magic Device should be maxed. You'll also need 12 points in Knowledge (the planes), 4 in Sense Motive and Bluff, and 6 in Intimidate to meet prestige class requirements. You're at 2 + INT skill points per level, so you will need a high INT to do all this.


Same thing, but don't take the Half-Fiend levels.


Not possible AFAIK. Demons are outsiders, undead are undead. Two different creature types. You can't have both at the same time.

Thanks everyone for chiming in with suggestions. A special thank you to Troacctid for the build.

She ended up with taking the Savage Drow going Warlock5/Demonbinder3/Half-fiend1 (she really wanted the half-fiend part). She's unsure of if she wants to go with the Hellfire Warlcok,
but the character has currently been build towards it. I'm thinking that maybe she should take a dip into Binder to get Naberious so she can offset the ability drain.

A question she has, how can she get the evil subtype, at some point she wants to become a fullblooded fiend - as far as I can see its not really that easy. Any suggestions?

[Darrin]

A question she has, how can she get the evil subtype, at some point she wants to become a fullblooded fiend - as far as I can see its not really that easy. Any suggestions?

There is a Ritual of Alignment (Savage Species p. 148) that does exactly this. It requires a 7th level cleric with the appropriate domain to perform the ritual, along with 56K GP and 2240 XP.

However, this looks like a great opportunity to roleplay something a little more meaningful. I would probably consider reworking the ritual so it fits the character's story arc, so perhaps modify the cost/requirements to something that involves the character's backstory more... instead of pay X amount of GP or XP, set up a short side-quest to kidnap a particular NPC that helped her earlier in the story and sacrifice them on an altar dedicated to an evil gawd.

[Incarnate]

There is a Ritual of Alignment (Savage Species p. 148) that does exactly this. It requires a 7th level cleric with the appropriate domain to perform the ritual, along with 56K GP and 2240 XP.

However, this looks like a great opportunity to roleplay something a little more meaningful. I would probably consider reworking the ritual so it fits the character's story arc, so perhaps modify the cost/requirements to something that involves the character's backstory more... instead of pay X amount of GP or XP, set up a short side-quest to kidnap a particular NPC that helped her earlier in the story and sacrifice them on an altar dedicated to an evil gawd.

I'm aware of the ritual and its requirements, but have tried to find out what the ritual actually entails, whats spells are being used, the ritual process and such. I much more prefer the actual roleplay angle than its "just" a ritual you pay for. Anyone knows this?

It seems its incredibly difficult to actually have your subtype changed to evil, considering many of the others options there exists to become an outsider. I had actually considered to rule that when she became an outsider parts of her alignment would dictate which plane she'd would get tied to. Basically making her an Outsider (augmented humanoid, drow, Evil, Native) or similar. I'm thinking why should her alignment not be able to affect what alignment plane she gets tied to when she becomes an outsider.

I bet there are some other solutions, in my opinion it should be this difficult to get tied to an alignment plane when you've achieved becoming an outsider, its not like the template which would be aqcuired necessarily would have to have make any real changes. In effect it would be like someone becoming a fiend, say a devil, it would in most respects be a devil, but wouldn't function adequately as one, and most likely be missing certain defining characteristics, and quite possible have other characteristicst that would define it as one that has become a devil through other means. This could open up for racial class levels with various paths, rather than make a lot of adjustments and end up with: " Congratulations, you're now a devil and can do XYZ with an LA+X". This could also go be used to go the other way, to become a fullblooded celestial. But as far as I know there doesn't really exist any rules for this, only racial progression as a half-someting.

[Troacctid]

She ended up with taking the Savage Drow going Warlock5/Demonbinder3/Half-fiend1 (she really wanted the half-fiend part). She's unsure of if she wants to go with the Hellfire Warlcok,
but the character has currently been build towards it. I'm thinking that maybe she should take a dip into Binder to get Naberious so she can offset the ability drain.
I would recommend instead that she give a wand of lesser restoration to her imp familiar and have it heal the ability damage for her. 750 gp is a lot cheaper than a class level.


A question she has, how can she get the evil subtype, at some point she wants to become a fullblooded fiend - as far as I can see its not really that easy. Any suggestions?
Well, she could gain it temporarily with the hellspawned grace invocation. Or she could be a divine minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) instead of a half-fiend; divine minions of evil gods are outsiders with the evil subtype. Technically that makes them fiends, even if the flavor is different.

[Incarnate]

I would recommend instead that she give a wand of lesser restoration to her imp familiar and have it heal the ability damage for her. 750 gp is a lot cheaper than a class level.

Good recommendation.



Well, she could gain it temporarily with the hellspawned grace invocation. Or she could be a divine minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) instead of a half-fiend; divine minions of evil gods are outsiders with the evil subtype. Technically that makes them fiends, even if the flavor is different.

That would make her a hellcat with no of her abilities, quite certain she wouldn't be interested in that, as mentioned she's interested becoming a fullblooded devil, which is humanoid.
The Divine minion template as far as I'm aware is only for a specific deity, Mulhorandi if I recall correctly? That could be a possibility if it can be used for other deities.

[Troacctid]

Mulhorandi is not a god, it's a pantheon that comprises the gods of the nation of Mulhorand. You would probably be worshipping Sebek or Set.

[Incarnate]

Mulhorandi is not a god, it's a pantheon that comprises the gods of the nation of Mulhorand. You would probably be worshipping Sebek or Set.

That wouldn't make sense that she would be worshipping either of those, only from the perspective of becoming a divine minion. I wonder if the template could be changed a bit mechanically as well as the re-fluffing it so it would be a little more generic, or re-fluffing it to being specific to her becoming an infernal minion of some archdevil, much like one would become a divine minion, she would become an infernal minion because she worshipped an infernal power instead?

[Troacctid]

The animal transformation comes from the Egyptian gods being associated with certain animals. However, it would be easy to adapt to a different deity. Just pick an appropriate animal of equivalent power level. A fiendish wolf, maybe.

[Incarnate]

It would seem according to Fiendish Codex II that the only way to become a devil is to be lawful evil and die - usually this results in the identity and memories get obliterated in the process, the end result is that whoever goes through this process become a lemure devil that can be used as energy, shock troopers and more, these can also be promoted to higher forms of devil (Fiendish Codex II - pg.27). Certain lawful evil deities allow certain favored followers to serve eternally at their feet in fiendish form, retaining full memory of their mortal lives, along with an idealized form, if horrific, versions of its old appearance. (Fiendish Codex II - pg.40). It's also stated on pg 27 that in a few rare cases, exceptionally evil characters might get automatically promoted to a higher form of devil.

So basically dying is a sure way to become a devil if lawful evil, but not the kind that most would be interested in. So definitely the infernal minion would be an option, but still requires the character dying. Not only that, it would require divine minion to be reworked, or a template for an infernal minion be created. Any good an viable suggestion for the infernal minion?

Does there exist a template that could be used to create a devil, where the LA-components would be easily identified, so it could be tweaked towards a generic fiendish template with a LA+0 that could be used? Guidelines for assigning LA would also be useful.

Wish is definitely also a solution, but quite expensive and not a surefire solution.
Ritual of Alignment only changes the subtype, it doesn't really make any changes to the character that would make sense considering she wants it to become a fullblooded devil.

[Troacctid]

So basically dying is a sure way to become a devil if lawful evil, but not the kind that most would be interested in. So definitely the infernal minion would be an option, but still requires the character dying. Not only that, it would require divine minion to be reworked, or a template for an infernal minion be created. Any good an viable suggestion for the infernal minion?
Change the animal to a fiendish wolf, fiendish hawk, fiendish spider, something like that. And that's it, that's all the changes you need to make. :smallcool:


Does there exist a template that could be used to create a devil, where the LA-components would be easily identified, so it could be tweaked towards a generic fiendish template with a LA+0 that could be used? Guidelines for assigning LA would also be useful.
You're more or less describing the half-fiend savage progression.

Basically, what you're asking is "Can I be a full-blooded devil while also being partially some other race?" And the answer is, no, being partially some other race would by definition preclude being a full-blooded member of a different race. The only way to do it would be with a polymorphy-type effect, not a template.

I mean, you could be a hellbred, I guess. But they're not actually devils, they just look like them. Also, they're damned souls on a quest for redemption, so they're typically good-aligned, and they don't play nice with devils. And there are tieflings, of course, but they have similar issues—they're not fiends, they're planetouched with fiendish heritage.

[Incarnate]

Change the animal to a fiendish wolf, fiendish hawk, fiendish spider, something like that. And that's it, that's all the changes you need to make. :smallcool:

I would say it depends on what racial adjustments it gets, what abilities it gets (spell-like, supernatural, etct.) and such, which would depend on what fiend it mirrors, which is why I don't completely agree with that statement.


You're more or less describing the half-fiend savage progression.

Basically, what you're asking is "Can I be a full-blooded devil while also being partially some other race?" And the answer is, no, being partially some other race would by definition preclude being a full-blooded member of a different race. The only way to do it would be with a polymorphy-type effect, not a template.

No, thats not what I'm asking. It's like it says, to be able to create a more generic fiend template, sort of to have a template where you can "upgrade" one to a fullblooded fiend, but without necessarily actually giving any spell-like, supernatural or passive abilities that would count towards a level adjustment. Basically to be able to upgrade one to a fullblooded fiend, where the character actually fully retains identify & memories, changes normal apperance towards the fiendtype in question, but also get the ability to change appearance back to the appearance back to the racial appearance which it can stay in for indefinite amount of time. And this is not only to be able to upgrade an existing character, but also to use it for a character starting of as a fullblooded fiend working its way up the hierarchy. Which is why it's important its a generic template, basically one that forms the baseline for the character.


I mean, you could be a hellbred, I guess. But they're not actually devils, they just look like them. Also, they're damned souls on a quest for redemption, so they're typically good-aligned, and they don't play nice with devils. And there are tieflings, of course, but they have similar issues—they're not fiends, they're planetouched with fiendish heritage.

Yes I know, I did consider trying to base a template of it, but as you say, its not a fiend.