Master of Many Forms vs Master Transmogrifist

[Bad Wolf]

So I was looking at both of these, and I was wondering which ones the forums considered to be superior. Assume a Wizard base for MF, and a Druid base for MoMF.

[nettle3305]

Unrelated, and unlikely to fly in a game, but I'm reminded of the trick where you grab the Mulhorandi Divine Minion template (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) and qualify early for MoMF early that way, while shaping as an 11th level druid. If this is allowed, I'd bet MoMF is pretty good early.

[Bad Wolf]

Unrelated, and unlikely to fly in a game, but I'm reminded of the trick where you grab the Mulhorandi Divine Minion template (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) and qualify early for MoMF early that way, while shaping as an 11th level druid. If this is allowed, I'd bet MoMF is pretty good early.

And if it isn't?

[JeminiZero]

MoMF is in fact a terrible choice for Druids as it does not advance their casting or their Animal Companion, so a Druid 5 / MoMF 10 is worse off than a Druid 15. The MoMF may have stronger base Wildshape forms, but the Druid can buff his form with things like Bite of the Werebear, Heart of Earth. Not to mention the Animal Companion, Summoned Animals and the Animal Growth buff.

Along this line of reasoning, I think MTF is generally better than MoMF, mostly because MTF at least advances spellcasting (albeit with 4 levels lost). Assuming you take Practiced Spellcaster to make up for the lost CL, then you gain access to pretty much the same forms as MoMF via Polymorph.Wizard MTF may have worse BAB but Battle Mastery helps compensate. And as with the pure Druid, you can buff your polymorphed self, with stuff like Elemental Body, Bite of the Were-X, Greater Mirror Image, and even spam Wraithstrike from a Wand. To top it off, most MTF class features work with Draconic Polymorph.

Having said that, MoMF is better in 2 cases:
1) Wild Shape lasts much longer
2) Wildshape cannot be dispelled (and this includes auto-dispel things like Pierce Magical Protection ending Polymorph)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Master Transmogrifist is much better, especially if you have the outsider type (which MoMF never gets).
You still get 8th level spells and the 10th level ability Infinite Variety is super powerful if you go book diving for forms that suck but have cool abilities.
Things like adding the Spell Weaver's (MM2) Spell Weaving ability or the Nilshai's (UE) extra standard action to a form with good stats or other abilities.
The option to combine parts of other monsters into your favorite shapes is what catapults MTF firmly above MoMF imo.
You also get forms earlier if you boost your CL, which is easy. Boosting Wild Shape HD limits is much rarer and more expensive.

The other big benefit is the difference between Polymorph and Wild Shape. Mainly the rules for equipment.
When you wild shape all your equipment melds unless you invest in a Wilding Clasp, which is 4,000gp for every body slot. That adds up fast.
For Polymorph and its variants your equipment keeps functioning as long as the new form has the relevant body slots.

You also get the type and subtype of your new form with Polymorph, which can have benefits. Wild Shape keeps your type, which can have benefits too. It depends on what you're trying to do.
Both can benefit a lot from picking up Metamorphic Transfer. Picking a psionic race with a psi-like that scales with HD is definitely worth consideration.

The only real downside is that your spells can be dispelled and the lower duration, but it's not that much of a problem. Dispel Protection is a staple for every class anyway at higher levels, and if the duration you have isn't enough even with your free extend you can just prepare the spell another time or buy a Pearl of Power.


MoMF is in fact a terrible choice for Druids as it does not advance their casting or their Animal Companion, so a Druid 5 / MoMF 10 is worse off than a Druid 15. The MoMF may have stronger base Wildshape forms, but the Druid can buff his form with things like Bite of the Werebear, Heart of Earth. Not to mention the Animal Companion, Summoned Animals and the Animal Growth buff.
It's not only that. MoMF doesn't even add all that much to Wild Shape over a straight Druid + form-adding feats.
Enhance Wild Shape lets you pick up (Ex) abilities at 7, negating one of the MoMF's bigger draws.
Aberration WS adds probably the most versatile and useful creature type to shift into aside from outsider, which MoMF doesn't get either.

The only types where you can really pick up some good stuff is Monstrous Humanoids and Giants, and nothing there that much better than what the Druid would get anyway.
Not that MoMF isn't playable. It's a solid class. But it's definitely not worth the investment from a pure cost-benefit consideration when you're starting with a Druid base.

[supersonic29]

the outsider type (which MoMF never gets).

True, however the Planar Shepherd does if you really want to wildshape into outsiders. If the aforementioned Divine Minion trick is allowed (as it was for my present character) then you can do something like this:

Divine Minion (LA Bought off)/Wildshaping Base Class 1/MoMF 7/Planar Shepherd 9/Nature's Warrior 3

Bam, 20 hit dice of wild shaping, Ex Qualities of your forms, outsiders, elementals, and magical beasts from a chosen plane (which, despite many a DM ruling, says nothing about having to visit that plane in any RAW that I see), and two Nature's Armaments which buff every form you take on.

Now on the note of what is "better" between those two... Well, Wizard and its friends that share its spell list are basically the best thing in 3.5 before and often after the DM waves their hand to cheese. And even if you were getting full druid casting levels somehow, wizard casting levels win. However if you want to identify the best/most fun shapeshifter build, I'd defend something like the above. Warshaper is also a fun class, but boo to the fact that it won't increase your wildshaping HD. You can justify 4 levels of it with a Wildshape Amulet, (5 if you read the item with a bit of cheese and your base class isn't druid) but at that point you've squeezed your ability to get both Ex qualities and select outsiders into your build.

Edit: Oh, and on the note of enhance wildshape: there is a novelty to not having to prep your wildshapes and having those qualities anyways. That's less optimization and more enjoyment of play though.

[sleepyphoenixx]

True, however the Planar Shepherd does if you really want to wildshape into outsiders. If the aforementioned Divine Minion trick is allowed (as it was for my present character) then you can do something like this:

Divine Minion (LA Bought off)/Wildshaping Base Class 1/MoMF 7/Planar Shepherd 9/Nature's Warrior 3

Bam, 20 hit dice of wild shaping, Ex Qualities of your forms, outsiders, elementals, and magical beasts from a chosen plane (which, despite many a DM ruling, says nothing about having to visit that plane in any RAW that I see), and two Nature's Armaments which buff every form you take on.

Planar Shepherd doesn't count. Few DMs allow it and if you include it every shapeshifter discussion ends up with "be a Planar Shepherd" because it's the only way to get spell-likes.
Very few forms beat Planetar shape at level 14, and pretty much all of them are also PS forms.
Not to mention that "be a Planar Shepherd" really has no place in a discussion of Master Transmogrifist vs Master of Many Forms.

I'd also question why you'd want to go for MoMF when you already have PS wildshape. Why would you choose two PrCs with main class features that are mutually exclusive?
99% of the time the class does nothing for you. The remaining 1% Planar Shepherd does nothing.
There is almost no situation in which you'd take a MoMF form over outsider wildshape if you pick a good plane, and those already get (Ex), (Su) and (Sp) abilities natively.
You may as well increase your casting instead of spending 7 levels on something you never use.

As for Enhance Wild Shape, if having to cast a spell on your primary spellcaster class detracts from your enjoyment of play i'd suggest a different class.:smalltongue:
It has a duration of 1 hour/level, so you don't even need to spend in-combat actions on it. Just have one active all the time.
It's not like you're going to change forms more than once per combat anyway (if that) even with a MoMF's increased number of uses, let alone on a druid.

[supersonic29]

You're right about PS basically ending the discussion, though I suppose I forgot that it gave you (Ex),(Su),(Sp) Qualities and Abilities. The casting comment was for someone who wants to play a shapeshifter more than a caster, as I've seen before. And since I find Wild Monk hard to recommend.. yeah. MoMF also just gives you that fun of variety, what with the aberrations, oozes, and fey. (You can take aberration wildshape to alleviate one of those. We don't bother with dragon wildshape though.)

But again, if you are actually maximizing power level here, you should just be reaching for the option that involves playing a wizard every time.

[KillingAScarab]

I don't have much experience with full spellcasters, but if I were to look for the one which let me change forms, I would pick wild shape. Wild shape references alternate form, but is a fairly succinct ability. Without Rich's revision (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html) or Pathfinder's spells backported, polymorph spells have four years of errata, FAQs and references to other polymorph spells to wade through.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I don't have much experience with full spellcasters, but if I were to look for the one which let me change forms, I would pick wild shape. Wild shape references alternate form, but is a fairly succinct ability. Without Rich's revision (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html) or Pathfinder's spells backported, polymorph spells have four years of errata, FAQs and references to other polymorph spells to wade through.

I'm pretty sure the SRD is up to date. I haven't checked though.

[icefractal]

I'd say that MoMF is better if you want to play a pure shapechanger (mostly for the far superior duration and coming online earlier), but that MT is better overall because being a spellcaster + some shapeshifting beats shapeshifting-only.

Although if Divine Minion is allowed, then MoMF is just flat-out better - free action shape changing is very potent.

[supersonic29]

Although if Divine Minion is allowed, then MoMF is just flat-out better - free action shape changing is very potent.

That it is. I got house-ruled into it being once per round when we're in initiative, but at will no duration wildshaping is still crazy.