Nether Scrolls ... level gain?

[schreier]

The Nether Scrolls, from Magic of Faerun, is an incredibly power artifact with a variety of effects.

One of the powers is "Reading even one nether scroll offers considerable insight into the Art. Any character studying one immediately gains one level in an arcane spellcasting class of her choice. (That is, her experience point total is set to the midpoint for her new level.)"

Is this a one time level gain? Or is it per page read?

The Libram of Gainful Conjuration (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Libram_of_Gainful_Conjuration) says "Once read, the book vanishes, never to be seen again, nor can the same character ever benefit from reading a similar tome a second time."

The scrolls do not mention such a limit (unable to benefit a second time). Do you gain a level per page? Or if you read 1+ pages, you gain a level - but that is it.

The rules could go either way I think, but it is hard to imagine an artifact granting potentially 50 levels?

[DarkSoul]

Yes, it could potentially grant 50 levels. However, it should be nearly impossible for one person to read all 50. If a PC manages it, then either the DM screwed up or the PC should be very worried.

[Extra Anchovies]

Correction: the Nether Scrolls are described in Lost Empires of Faerun. All in all a pretty neat book of lore if you accept the high-magic non-tippyverse nature of the setting.

One of the sets of Nether Scrolls is a tree in the basement of Windsong Tower; apparently it gets moved around and stuff happens with it over the course of the campaign module Anauroch: Empire of Shade, which I have not read. The other set is scattered and some of its pages have been destroyed. Regarding their use in-game... meh. The rate of PC level advancement is entirely at the DM's discretion anyways, so whether you can get your hands on one and how the level-gain system works is kind of irrelevant in actual play.

[Âmesang]

Gaining a level-per-scroll would certainly explain how arcanists like Ioulaum and Karsus reached 40th+ level.

…either that or they fought a lot of phaerimms.

Personally, though, I'd go with one level increase regardless of the number of scrolls read so as to keep it in line with similar artifacts.

[DarkSoul]

I think one per chapter of 10 scrolls would be appropriate, too. Each chapter is effectively an artifact, or at least a very potent magical item, in its own right. Even compiling a single chapter would be a huge undertaking, and each page takes a month to read so you're looking at 10 months for a single level.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's pretty explicitly one level per scroll read. No, you can't read a scroll twice for two levels. You're getting the level because of the knowledge of magic you learn from it, and once you've read one you've gotten that knowledge from that particular scroll.

Still, it's an artifact, so your players shouldn't get their hands on even one scroll if you don't want them to, let alone all fifty.
There's really no point houseruling something your players will never see unless you allow it.

Even if you play FR by the books your players have no in-character way of knowing that the only complete set is in the ruins of Windsong Tower.
And if you're playing A:EoS it's gone by the time you get there and gets destroyed over the course of the adventure.

Even finding a single scroll from the second (scattered) set is a grand quest for any arcane caster. Those things aren't just lying around.
Unless your players read the relevant FR books and then metagame like crazy it won't ever come up in a campaign.

TL:DR? Don't let your players metagame and it will never come up. All houseruling the scrolls will do is make your players think they're actually getting them. Which they really shouldn't.

[schreier]

My problem with the 50 is that it is stated that the entire set was in that tree. You'd have to assume people had read the set if it was available, so I would expect level 60-70 guys (you would think they were at least level 10 before reading them)

Also - it is explicit that one page will gain you a level ... but it does say "Reading even one nether scroll offers considerable insight into the Art. Any character studying one immediately gains one level in an arcane spellcasting class of her choice. (That is, her experience point total is set to the midpoint for her new level.)"

The first sentence says "even one" - so that could be read that, as it is a single artifact, it takes reading one page to gain the level ... and that is the extent of the artifacts level gaining ability. If you read one page, you gain a level - reading 50 pages is just continuing to read the same artifact ... so does not grant any more levels.

Not saying the above is my stance - but that is a reasonable interpretation, particularly as there are no canon 60+ level spellcasters to my knowledge.

[Bronk]

The Nether Scrolls, from Magic of Faerun, is an incredibly power artifact with a variety of effects.

One of the powers is "Reading even one nether scroll offers considerable insight into the Art. Any character studying one immediately gains one level in an arcane spellcasting class of her choice. (That is, her experience point total is set to the midpoint for her new level.)"

Is this a one time level gain? Or is it per page read?

The Libram of Gainful Conjuration (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Libram_of_Gainful_Conjuration) says "Once read, the book vanishes, never to be seen again, nor can the same character ever benefit from reading a similar tome a second time."

The scrolls do not mention such a limit (unable to benefit a second time). Do you gain a level per page? Or if you read 1+ pages, you gain a level - but that is it.

The rules could go either way I think, but it is hard to imagine an artifact granting potentially 50 levels?

The thing is, it isn't one artifact called the 'Nether Scrolls', it's a series of 50 separate minor artifacts, each of which takes a month to read, each with the power to grant an extra level, but all of them either lost, destroyed, or locked away.

Finding even one of them is up to the DM in the first place, and the obstacles to doing so are there to help with adventure creation.

Of the ones that are loose, only a few have hints at their location, some are destroyed, and the last ten need a special key to even read.

Of the ones that are bound up as a magical elven tree, the tree itself is both a hiding spot and an additional magical protection to be overcome (and the last ten are still locked).

[sleepyphoenixx]

My problem with the 50 is that it is stated that the entire set was in that tree. You'd have to assume people had read the set if it was available, so I would expect level 60-70 guys (you would think they were at least level 10 before reading them)

Also - it is explicit that one page will gain you a level ... but it does say "Reading even one nether scroll offers considerable insight into the Art. Any character studying one immediately gains one level in an arcane spellcasting class of her choice. (That is, her experience point total is set to the midpoint for her new level.)"

The first sentence says "even one" - so that could be read that, as it is a single artifact, it takes reading one page to gain the level ... and that is the extent of the artifacts level gaining ability. If you read one page, you gain a level - reading 50 pages is just continuing to read the same artifact ... so does not grant any more levels.

Not saying the above is my stance - but that is a reasonable interpretation, particularly as there are no canon 60+ level spellcasters to my knowledge.

FR lore and mechanics rarely mesh 100%.
Also keep in mind that the set in Windsong Tower:
1. had it's access restricted to 1 student of the school at a time, and it probably wasn't in a constant round-the-clock schedule
2. has been lost since the fall of Myth Drannor
3. the chapter on artifact creation needs a key that the mages at the school never discovered (limiting readers to 40 levels max)

NPCs are also generally not player characters who chase after power to the exclusion of all else. They don't spend almost 4 years in non-stop studying, never taking a break, even if they could.
Anyone who would've free access to the scrolls would've also had other duties to attend to (Instructor, Headmaster, high position in the city).

FR is also not a kind world. Myth Drannor's High Mages (the ones who would've read the most of those scrolls) died during the fall.
Death and level drain happen, even if they don't happen to you. NPC spellcasters generally have at least 1 item creation feat.
They also don't spend a lot of time adventuring or abuse tricks to get free crafting XP.

[Zanos]

It's pretty explicitly one level per scroll read. No, you can't read a scroll twice for two levels. You're getting the level because of the knowledge of magic you learn from it, and once you've read one you've gotten that knowledge from that particular scroll.

While I agree mechanically, lore wise the contents of a nether scroll shift, and two readers, or even the same reader at different points of mastery of the Art, will receive different information.

[sleepyphoenixx]

While I agree mechanically, lore wise the contents of a nether scroll shift, and two readers, or even the same reader at different points of mastery of the Art, will receive different information.

The way i understand it the scrolls shift in that it seems they're just a single page but contain an entire book each. But the information contained in each seperate scroll is still distinct.
It's basically just a fancy way of turning a page.

[schreier]

Agreed that it is just a fancy page turn.

On another note... it grants a level in an arcane spellcasting class... that is just one that grants spellcasting, not advances it, right? So wizard or sorcerer, not archmage or Loremaster?

Sublime chord would work though?

[JoshuaZ]

Agreed that it is just a fancy page turn.

On another note... it grants a level in an arcane spellcasting class... that is just one that grants spellcasting, not advances it, right? So wizard or sorcerer, not archmage or Loremaster?

Sublime chord would work though?

It says class, not prestige class. Is the RAW that "class" with no modifier includes both? I think so, but I'm not sure. This actually be could be abused even more then since PrCs have prerequisites, and it doesn't say anything about needed to meet the prereqs for the PrC, and one might be able to use it to similarly avoid alignment issues for classes (e.g. take a level in dread necromancer while being good).

[DarkSoul]

I'm pretty sure that trying to use an artifact to avoid prestige class requirements is even further into the realm of DM fiat than epic spellcasting. That being said, I would rule that you can only use a nether scroll level to enter a prestige class if you already qualify for the prestige class.

[Evolved Shrimp]

It's pretty explicitly one level per scroll read.

Actually, it's pretty explicitly one level, period - no matter how many scrolls you read.

It says that "reading even one scroll" gains you a level, but it nowhere says or hints that reading more gets you more levels.

[schreier]

Actually, it's pretty explicitly one level, period - no matter how many scrolls you read.

It says that "reading even one scroll" gains you a level, but it nowhere says or hints that reading more gets you more levels.

That's what I was trying to point out - that is clearly a reasonable interpretation. Otherwise, anyone benefiting from any of the "chapters" - those 10 page sections - would be picking up 10 levels at the same time, which seems a little crazy

[Zanos]

That's what I was trying to point out - that is clearly a reasonable interpretation. Otherwise, anyone benefiting from any of the "chapters" - those 10 page sections - would be picking up 10 levels at the same time, which seems a little crazy
Considering one of the chapter powers is "Can craft artifacts", 10 levels doesn't really seem that ridiculous. The nether scrolls are OP.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Considering one of the chapter powers is "Can craft artifacts", 10 levels doesn't really seem that ridiculous. The nether scrolls are OP.

Which is why they're an artifact. An item that's not bound by the normal restrictions on item powers.
And something that players generally don't have access to except for plot reasons, and no DM should hand one out lightly without knowing what he's getting into.