Summoned monster behaviour

[Keral]

Hi!

So, a summon spell says:


If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

So, in this specific case, the PC doesn't speak ooze, and even if he did oozes are mindless with no int.

How do they behave?

Furthermore, grey oozes are blind (they do have blindsight, however). How would they determine which creature is friend and which is foe?

Do they just attack anyone near them?


After I accidentally killed off half the party because they murdered a noble in broad daylight, each of them returned with something to summon and I'm trying to better understand this mechanic.

Thanks!

[Psyren]

Assuming you're using Summon Monster to get this thing out, you missed the preceding sentence:


It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

So basically, even if you lack the ability to direct it/prioritize targets, it still won't go after your allies by RAW.

As for how it distinguishes "opponents" - it does so the same way a Bane spell does, by magic. Bane can't think either after all, it just works.

[Keral]

ahhh, well, the "by magic" works I suppose.


I did read that bit about it attaking enemies at the best of his ability, but then I considered that being mindless and blind that "best of his ability" may not help much.

Thanks!

Ps: should I allow the PC to choose if multiple enemies are nearby or should I say the monster attacks the nearest? Or roll between all enemies?

[Psyren]

ahhh, well, the "by magic" works I suppose.


I did read that bit about it attaking enemies at the best of his ability, but then I considered that being mindless and blind that "best of his ability" may not help much.

Thanks!

Ps: should I allow the PC to choose if multiple enemies are nearby or should I say the monster attacks the nearest? Or roll between all enemies?

I would do "attack nearest," and roll randomly (you can use the "Missed Splash Weapon" rules) if enemies are equidistant.

[Red Fel]

Ps: should I allow the PC to choose if multiple enemies are nearby or should I say the monster attacks the nearest? Or roll between all enemies?

Yeah, I'm gonna go with Psyren on this.

The spell specifies that if you can communicate it, "you can direct it ... to attack particular enemies," which suggests that if you can't communicate with it, you can't direct it to attack particulars. So it would likely just attack the nearest enemy, PC doesn't get to choose.

[Keral]

Thanks guys!

[Darrin]

How exactly was the grey ooze summoned? Normally, if it comes out of the summon monster line, the fiendish or celestial template tends to get slapped on it, which gives it an Int of 3. By RAW, all creatures with Int of at least 3 can speak Common. Uh... well... understand it, at least. The rules don't say what happens when a creature that normally doesn't speak gets a high enough Int to acquire language/speech.

Note: There is a rules discrepancy with the summon nature's ally line, as they do *NOT* get Int 3 as a default. Druids should be using Handle Animal checks to "push" the animal to perform certain actions, but this takes a full-round action (summoned creatures aren't assumed to know any tricks), and they generally have better things to do with their actions. However, hardly anyone plays strictly to RAW with SNA, and just assumes the animals can be directed with free actions.

[Psyren]

Note: There is a rules discrepancy with the summon nature's ally line, as they do *NOT* get Int 3 as a default. Druids should be using Handle Animal checks to "push" the animal to perform certain actions, but this takes a full-round action (summoned creatures aren't assumed to know any tricks), and they generally have better things to do with their actions. However, hardly anyone plays strictly to RAW with SNA, and just assumes the animals can be directed with free actions.

SNA has the same language as SM actually - if you lack a means to command/communicate with them, they still attack your enemies on their own without needing direction.

[Darrin]

SNA has the same language as SM actually - if you lack a means to command/communicate with them, they still attack your enemies on their own without needing direction.

True. But I have yet to run into a DM/group that doesn't allow a druid to redirect a summoned animal to do something else as a free action.

[Crake]

True. But I have yet to run into a DM/group that doesn't allow a druid to redirect a summoned animal to do something else as a free action.

I make druids use handle animal to direct animal summons....

[Psyren]

If you want to stay within RAW, you can also just prep a few Speak With Animals in your 1st-level slots, or get a Tongues permanencied on you.

[Darrin]

I make druids use handle animal to direct animal summons....

As a full-round action? Do any of the PCs bother to do so?

[Crake]

As a full-round action? Do any of the PCs bother to do so?

Sometimes, if they don't want to get into the thick of things themselves, and they have nothing better to do.

[CasualViking]

The way I run it is, at the moment of summoning, te creature gets the casters perception of "enemy" and "ally".

[Keral]

It was summoned by the Thrall of juiblex spell like ability.


Summon Ooze (Sp): At 3rd level a Thrall of Juiblex can summon a patch of green sime, a gray ooze, an ochre jelly, or a gelatinous cube as the summon monster spell with hus thrall level as the caster level.

I don't think it makes it become fiendish or celestial, does it? And even if it did by RAW I'm not sure I'd allow it at this point. Yesterday was already a bit of a disaster, with him summoning gelatinous cubes at will. I'm not sure what the encounter level should be with this party anymore, I'll bring this up in another thread tho.


Anyhow, I also found this:


A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

Does this imply that you cannot summon more than one copy of a creature at a time? If not, what's the point of saying that a slain creature can't be summoned again for 24 hours?

[Eldariel]

Does this imply that you cannot summon more than one copy of a creature at a time? If not, what's the point of saying that a slain creature can't be summoned again for 24 hours?

There are some alternative rules about being able to bond with and summon a particular creature of a given type. Could be related to those ideas - wanting to summon a specific Dire Wolf or whatever, which after death will be unavailable for 24 hours.

[Crake]

It was summoned by the Thrall of juiblex spell like ability.



I don't think it makes it become fiendish or celestial, does it? And even if it did by RAW I'm not sure I'd allow it at this point. Yesterday was already a bit of a disaster, with him summoning gelatinous cubes at will. I'm not sure what the encounter level should be with this party anymore, I'll bring this up in another thread tho.


Anyhow, I also found this:



Does this imply that you cannot summon more than one copy of a creature at a time? If not, what's the point of saying that a slain creature can't be summoned again for 24 hours?

There are certain optional rules or spells that specifically summon the same creature time after time, that rule is for those circumstances.

[Calthropstu]

How exactly was the grey ooze summoned? Normally, if it comes out of the summon monster line, the fiendish or celestial template tends to get slapped on it, which gives it an Int of 3. By RAW, all creatures with Int of at least 3 can speak Common. Uh... well... understand it, at least. The rules don't say what happens when a creature that normally doesn't speak gets a high enough Int to acquire language/speech.

Note: There is a rules discrepancy with the summon nature's ally line, as they do *NOT* get Int 3 as a default. Druids should be using Handle Animal checks to "push" the animal to perform certain actions, but this takes a full-round action (summoned creatures aren't assumed to know any tricks), and they generally have better things to do with their actions. However, hardly anyone plays strictly to RAW with SNA, and just assumes the animals can be directed with free actions.

Wrong.

It specifies PC RACES get common. However, it specifies that goblins and kobolds are exceptions. For monstrous races, it gives exactly what languages they have, if any. The Tarrasque, for example does not have common and has int 6. Elementals have intelligence, but do not get common. I also believe Dretches do not get common... can't remember for certain. Some other planar creatures do not get common. Most subterannean races do not get common, but get undercommon instead. Some fey do not get common if I recall correctly.

And, although it does say "unless otherwise noted" I am fairly certain the language a CELESTIAL creature understands...

Would be celestial.

Yeah an argument can be made "But right here it says..."
Blah blah... celestial creatures understand celestial. That's how I would rule it. Only way it makes sense really. "I'm from the celestial realms where everyone speaks celestial. But all the animals speak common instead." No. No. No.

[Darrin]

Wrong.

It specifies PC RACES get common. However, it specifies that goblins and kobolds are exceptions. For monstrous races, it gives exactly what languages they have, if any. The Tarrasque, for example does not have common and has int 6. Elementals have intelligence, but do not get common. I also believe Dretches do not get common... can't remember for certain. Some other planar creatures do not get common. Most subterannean races do not get common, but get undercommon instead. Some fey do not get common if I recall correctly.

And, although it does say "unless otherwise noted" I am fairly certain the language a CELESTIAL creature understands...

Would be celestial.


We're not talking about individual creature entries, we're talking about summoned creatures. Many of these are animals that get the Celestial or Fiendish template applied, which increases their Int to 3. There is no text in the creature entry or the Celestial/Fiendish templates that specifies a default language for Celestial or Fiendish creatures, so the general rule from page 7 of the Monster Manual applies:

"Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise)."

That's the RAW (Rules As Written). What you personally do in your own game is, of course, entirely up to you.

[Psyren]

Summon a nature's ally = one round casting time
Next round = (dire) animal appears, then cast Speak With Animals and direct it to attack a priority target.

It's not perfect (two slots) but this method gives a druid very fine control with no additional rounds lost.


It was summoned by the Thrall of juiblex spell like ability.

Note that this specifically inherits from summon monster (your own quote even says this) and so you should be defaulting first to that spell and then to the general summoning rules to figure out how this works, in that order. Accordingly, the "attacks opponents" line applies even though the ooze is mindless.

[Necroticplague]

Don't most Celestials and Fiends understand both common and whatever they're planar language is (i.e, demons speak Abyssal and Common, devils speak Common and Infernal)? It seems reasonable that most Fiendish or Celestial creatures could have picked up a smattering of both as automatic languages from the more intelligent members of the planes they live on. Or at least Planar Trade Common.

[Eldariel]

Don't most Celestials and Fiends understand both common and whatever they're planar language is (i.e, demons speak Abyssal and Common, devils speak Common and Infernal)? It seems reasonable that most Fiendish or Celestial creatures could have picked up a smattering of both as automatic languages from the more intelligent members of the planes they live on. Or at least Planar Trade Common.

That would be logical and indeed, you'd expect they'd be most likely to know like Planar Pidgin of some kind but sadly this game models languages and linguistics in a straight-up atrocious manner.

[Calthropstu]

We're not talking about individual creature entries, we're talking about summoned creatures. Many of these are animals that get the Celestial or Fiendish template applied, which increases their Int to 3. There is no text in the creature entry or the Celestial/Fiendish templates that specifies a default language for Celestial or Fiendish creatures, so the general rule from page 7 of the Monster Manual applies:

"Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise)."

That's the RAW (Rules As Written). What you personally do in your own game is, of course, entirely up to you.

Personally, I think this is a RAO: Rules as OOPSed
It's an oversight. There are many of them. But the reason they have intelligence 3 is because they are being pulled from the celestial/fiendish planes. So if you run into a T-Rex on the plane of Elysium, it will have the celestial template and have int 3.

Having it understand common is, frankly, absurd.

So I will simply laugh at your absurd common speaking T-Rex, while mine speaks a more apropriate language that makes sense for him to know.


I am SO glad that pathfinder fixed that particular problem. No int increase... no issue.

[Kantolin]

So I will simply laugh at your absurd common speaking T-Rex, while mine speaks a more apropriate language that makes sense for him to know.

I have to admit that I don't understand a lot of arguments that come from this angle. Or more specifically, it /feels/ like you're saying 'I don't want the T-rex to speak common because I don't like that this results in people being able to talk to their summoned monsters' as an attempt to 'balance' out summon monster.

I mean, most celestials probably speak common because of the whole 'angels interact a lot with the material plane' bit. An Angel-Trex is an angel as well as being a T-rex - it is no more absurd for him to speak common than it is for him to speak Celestial, or in fact to speak at all. Magical Angel T-Rexes, after all.

And either way, even if it is the case that 'these particular Angels can't speak common in your game', you are much better off just out and out saying something like, 'I think it's overpowered for people to be able to control their summons in my game, so people cannot do that'. Since otherwise, the party wizard or whatever will just pick Celestial as one of their starting languages, and whatever problem is being seen will continue. Or will have a persisted tongues or whatever is appropriate.

Now, I could be mistaken - it just /feels/ like this response is a 'It is overpowered for people to control their summons'. If it is, then admitting to and fixing that seems better than trying to finaggle 'Angels shouldn't be able to speak to people', or something, as that just adds a passive-aggressive trick to work around.

(Especially when, say, dwarves can speak to other people just fine).

[Deophaun]

So I will simply laugh at your absurd common speaking T-Rex
Where does it say it can speak common? I only see understand.

[elonin]

if oozes have Int: / then how would you communicate with them? That intelligence isn't enough to have communication.

[Thurbane]

if oozes have Int: / then how would you communicate with them? That intelligence isn't enough to have communication.

The fiendish or celestial template will bump Int to 3, as previously mentioned.

At least, for Summon Monster. Other Ooze summoning means would have their own issues.

[Calthropstu]

I have to admit that I don't understand a lot of arguments that come from this angle. Or more specifically, it /feels/ like you're saying 'I don't want the T-rex to speak common because I don't like that this results in people being able to talk to their summoned monsters' as an attempt to 'balance' out summon monster.

I mean, most celestials probably speak common because of the whole 'angels interact a lot with the material plane' bit. An Angel-Trex is an angel as well as being a T-rex - it is no more absurd for him to speak common than it is for him to speak Celestial, or in fact to speak at all. Magical Angel T-Rexes, after all.

And either way, even if it is the case that 'these particular Angels can't speak common in your game', you are much better off just out and out saying something like, 'I think it's overpowered for people to be able to control their summons in my game, so people cannot do that'. Since otherwise, the party wizard or whatever will just pick Celestial as one of their starting languages, and whatever problem is being seen will continue. Or will have a persisted tongues or whatever is appropriate.

Now, I could be mistaken - it just /feels/ like this response is a 'It is overpowered for people to control their summons'. If it is, then admitting to and fixing that seems better than trying to finaggle 'Angels shouldn't be able to speak to people', or something, as that just adds a passive-aggressive trick to work around.

(Especially when, say, dwarves can speak to other people just fine).

BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

We are talking about a realm where the primary language is CELESTIAL (or infernal). You want to speak to your summoned creatures? LEARN CELESTIAL. Learn Ignan. Learn Aquan. Learn Terran. Etc.

Sorry, I like my worlds to make sense. And summoning an ANIMAL from another realm be able to understand common, where it is almost never spoken by anyone, makes about as much sense as purchasing a trained pitbull, and expecting your commands to work in Chinese.

Learn the language of your primary summon source.

[Necroticplague]

BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

We are talking about a realm where the primary language is CELESTIAL (or infernal). You want to speak to your summoned creatures? LEARN CELESTIAL. Learn Ignan. Learn Aquan. Learn Terran. Etc.

Sorry, I like my worlds to make sense. And summoning an ANIMAL from another realm be able to understand common, where it is almost never spoken by anyone, makes about as much sense as purchasing a trained pitbull, and expecting your commands to work in Chinese.

Learn the language of your primary summon source.
1.Anything with the Celestial or Fiendish template is a Magical beast, like a Warg (which does speak common), not an Animal.
2. As I pointed out before, most celestials speak common and celestial, so it's not that wierd if all the Magic beasts of such places spoke both automatically.
3.That analogy is faulty because pitbulls lack human-like intelligence. Celestials creatures do have human-style intelligence. Also, it ignores that this is like buying said human-level-intelligence pitbull from a Chinatown-like area (i.e, one where both English and Chinese are spoken). Under these conditions, you might expect at least some commands to work in chinese.

[Kantolin]

We are talking about a realm where the primary language is CELESTIAL (or infernal). You want to speak to your summoned creatures? LEARN CELESTIAL. Learn Ignan. Learn Aquan. Learn Terran. Etc.

This is also a realm of angels, rather than, say, China.


Sorry, I like my worlds to make sense. And summoning an ANIMAL from another realm be able to understand common, where it is almost never spoken by anyone, makes about as much sense as purchasing a trained pitbull, and expecting your commands to work in Chinese.

See, I'd actually be more inclined to believe that about (say) dwarves, who can live deep underground, and yet still manage to speak common... than angels.

If you purchase a trained pit bull, the trained pit bull could not have a conversation with you at all, since it's not also an angel. It also does things like 'react on instinct' and the like, which intelligence 3 creatures do not need to do, since they're intelligent. I mean, you can sit this creature down and explain to it, 'Okay look, I'm doing something important - so I'm about to tell you to sit and I need you to /not/ sit unless I have a closed fist at you', and it'll be able to understand that (within reason, as it's not /particularly/ smart). Or for it to smite down evil with celestial might, which the celestial template allows.

I'd actually find it much more weird if you went to heaven, found a heavenly pit bull, and it /couldn't/ talk to you for some reason.

(I could accept it more if the pit bull couldn't talk at all, mind you, but once language is in play angels are the kind of thing I could see just having tongues. Still, the rules say common, so I can go with that).

Why is it weird that the magic talking angel speaks this language, but not that language? Both angels and archons have perpetual tongues and thus speak every language, so it's not like they'd be unable to communicate with things on their plane.

(And then why is it /not/ weird that gnomes, elves, and dwarves all speak common? They have less reason to do so than an angel)

[Calthropstu]

This is also a realm of angels, rather than, say, China.



See, I'd actually be more inclined to believe that about (say) dwarves, who can live deep underground, and yet still manage to speak common... than angels.

If you purchase a trained pit bull, the trained pit bull could not have a conversation with you at all, since it's not also an angel. It also does things like 'react on instinct' and the like, which intelligence 3 creatures do not need to do, since they're intelligent. I mean, you can sit this creature down and explain to it, 'Okay look, I'm doing something important - so I'm about to tell you to sit and I need you to /not/ sit unless I have a closed fist at you', and it'll be able to understand that (within reason, as it's not /particularly/ smart). Or for it to smite down evil with celestial might, which the celestial template allows.

I'd actually find it much more weird if you went to heaven, found a heavenly pit bull, and it /couldn't/ talk to you for some reason.

(I could accept it more if the pit bull couldn't talk at all, mind you, but once language is in play angels are the kind of thing I could see just having tongues. Still, the rules say common, so I can go with that).

Why is it weird that the magic talking angel speaks this language, but not that language? Both angels and archons have perpetual tongues and thus speak every language, so it's not like they'd be unable to communicate with things on their plane.

(And then why is it /not/ weird that gnomes, elves, and dwarves all speak common? They have less reason to do so than an angel)

See, the thing with dwarves is they live underground, but close to the surface and have farms and stuff above ground. Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, and Greyhawk and even Pathfinder describe them as such. They are not true subterranean creatures like the Duerger or Drow.

"Common" is the language of trade. It is assumed most people can speak it, and then have their own unique dialects and languages. At least that's how it is in Pathfinder. I can't imagine a 3int dinosaur doing any trading... ever.

[Kantolin]

I can't imagine a 3int dinosaur doing any trading... ever.

Angels. Three int 'angel'.

Why do any angels speak common? They don't trade with the material plane, in general. And then what is your explanation for 'why do these magical angel creatures speak common but /these/ magical angel creatures don't'.

What do they do in general? These are [good] magical beasts who are angels, not animals. Do they have limited discussions amongst each other about the best way to obtain food? They're actually pretty wise (Wisdom 15) - they might realize that they aren't very smart, go find a smarter angel than them with opinions they agree with, and do what they say.

Or whatever thinking creatures do who have a drive for goodness and to smite evil, despite not being too smart.

I still find it hard to believe that 'Podunk farmer, who has never gone 10 miles away from his home farm in the insular elven/dwarven community in the insular elven/dwarven forest/mountain, and only ever deals with elves/dwarves and the occasional orc/goblin attack, is more likely to speak common when his daughter is kidnapped than angels, and angels doing so totally breaks my versimilitude'.

Edit: And also, this is once again not really a balance issue - in most campaigns your languages aren't too central, so speaking celestial and infernal are just as convenient as whatever else you're doing (And in games where languages /are/ central you are encouraged to toss some skill points into languages anyway!) So if the concern is 'balance of summons', a better idea is having a conversation about that with your players.