Finally Saw Captain America Civil War

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Thankfully I managed to dodge spoilers until I finally got around to seeing the movie last week. Spoilers ahead, lol.

Well. It's a pretty grim tale of how the least super of the MCU villains did the most damage to the Avengers as a group. Bruhl's Zemo is tragic in many ways. A sad man bent on vengeance, killing more innocent people in the process. And the "success" of his plan likely has negative ramifications for the future of the world. That he could actually pull all of that off is impressive, given that he probably doesn't have that many resources compared to his enemies.

I like that they didn't adhere too closely to the derpfest which was the comic book storyline. I honestly couldn't tell you which side had it right. It bothers me that they blame the people trying to help for collateral damage instead of, you know, the actual criminals terrorists and alien invaders which were doing the bad things (except Ultron, which was 100% on Stark) but that seems to be a running theme here.

But Tony Stark. Was he joking about the pain in his left arm? Even so, that's pretty grim humor. He continues to unravel throughout the film culminating in a vicious fight sequence where I believe he was actually trying to kill Bucky! But when Zemo plays for him the scene of his parents' death I can't really blame him for flipping out either. The ending shows some hope for reconciliation but it doesn't look like it'll come easily.

I also think Rogers could have handled the situation a little better. Wanda being under house arrest isn't IMHO reason enough to storm out like a self righteous butt. There was a real opportunity to negotiate. Did he not tell Stark about HYDRA's involvement in his parents' deaths? Why not?

We also see a lot more of non-brainwashed Bucky. He's really had a rough time, and the scene where Zemo recites the activation phrase is heart-wrenching. He goes from subdued acceptance to panicked terror as Zemo calmly paces around him reading the words.

Action wise it was an awesome romp. From the first Crossbones encounter to the airport fight to the tragic final brawl, all good stuff. Spider-Man and Ant-Man were both surprisingly great in their own ways. Parker chattering away during the entire thing, effectively going toe-to-toe with Bucky, Cap, and Falcon. Then Lang stealing the shield back and then pulling off the biggest distraction play ever. The goofy laugh he does after becoming a goddamn giant just seals it for me.

Just enough humor and lighter moments, and well placed in my view. Tony Stank isn't a very sophisticated gag, but it was appropriate given how tense preceding events were.

Overall, I thought it was a good movie.

[Leewei]

I also liked it quite a bit, especially the occasional humorous side scenes like the ones involving Bucky and Falcon in the VW Bug. I'm guessing it's a timing thing, but this movie really should have been in the Avengers series. The cast is enormous, and most of the team is present.

[Cikomyr]

My favourite MCU movie to date. With the most compelling story IMHO

[Giggling Ghast]

I'm glad to see an actually potent Spider-Man for a change.

If the Winter Solider had tried to punch Tobey Maguire, he would have been knocked out of the fight and then start crying about how he failed Uncle Ben.

If he punched Andrew Garfield, he would have flown across the airport and killed Gwen Stacey on impact.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Man. It's gonna be hard for any MCU (non-Netflix) villain to live up to Zemo. But then again, the Russos are also directing Infinity War. I'm kinda stoked at the prospect of them getting their hands on Thanos.

[The Glyphstone]

Thanos will be awesome, but I don't know if he'll be able to beat Zemo as a villain. Part of what makes Zemo so awesome isn't just that he did so much with so little, but that he was by far the most human villain any of the Avengers have faced. He didn't want to take over the world or anything grandiose, he just wanted revenge for the deaths of his family, and his 'evil plan' (the world is better off without superheroes) is just compelling enough to be seductive.

[Pex]

Thanos will be awesome, but I don't know if he'll be able to beat Zemo as a villain. Part of what makes Zemo so awesome isn't just that he did so much with so little, but that he was by far the most human villain any of the Avengers have faced. He didn't want to take over the world or anything grandiose, he just wanted revenge for the deaths of his family, and his 'evil plan' (the world is better off without superheroes) is just compelling enough to be seductive.

He's also the only villain to succeed, if not literally in the way he wanted. He did "kill" The Avengers.

They'll regroup somehow for the next movie, but for now he won.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Yeah I think Zemo is a good villain for a number of reasons. He achieved his goal with just determination, patience, and skills. But at the same time he lacks the memetastic charisma often attached to successful villains. He's a quiet, sad man who ends up tearing apart a genuine if flawed group of heroes. At no point in the movie (as I recall) does he ever start swaggering or even smiling about his achievement.

It also highlights T'challa as a heroic figure. After spending the movie pursuing Bucky, he finally gets to meet the real culprit, and then makes the effort to take him in alive. And then he chooses to harbour Bucky, at no small risk to his nation.

[Aedilred]

I've enjoyed all the MCU movies, albeit some were much better than others, but it has to be said that by the start of this year they were starting to feel a bit samey. I appreciated the effort made by Civil War to break the mould of these pictures while still retaining all the elements that make the films charming and fun. I am still not sure it quite measures up to the first Avengers film, which I think might just be the best superhero film of all time (X-Men 2 and The Dark Knight being the other serious contenders, to my mind) and we'll have to see how well it ages, but I thought it was on the whole a really positive step for the series. That it seems impossible to form a consensus among fan circles on whether Tony or Cap was in the right shows it did its job well.

[BWR]

That it seems impossible to form a consensus among fan circles on whether Tony or Cap was in the right shows it did its job well.

Or poorly, considering the major issues I have (and have seen listed some places) is that both sides were idiots and handled things badly.

That said, Tony was right despite being an ass about it. :smallbiggrin:

[Cikomyr]

I think The Avengers is the most straight up enjoyable movie. Its focused, to the point and is filled to the brim with energy. MovieBob also is 100% on the money when he talks about the meta narrative of the movie.

Civil War is.. more ponderous. But also, in my opinion, more intellectually satisfying. Avengers appeals to the Guts.

[Thinker]

Or poorly, considering the major issues I have (and have seen listed some places) is that both sides were idiots and handled things badly.

That said, Tony was right despite being an ass about it. :smallbiggrin:

Otherwise smart people do idiotic things all the time. That they didn't sit and think about or talk out their issues in a rational manner is simply human, not a flaw of the movie.

[Lvl45DM!]

Going a bit off topic here, but to me the best superhero film is either The Incredibles or Unbreakable.

Those movies only work within the framework of the existing superhero narrative, Dark Knight and X2 dont need movies outside their franchises to hold them up

[Cikomyr]

Wait. X-Men 2 is considered one of the best superhero film..?

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Somehow the Captain America films are kind of grim.

The first one ends with him choosing to crash into the ice and essentially jump into a future he doesn't understand, missing a lifetime he could have spent with Carter. The scene where they set up the fake 1940s hospital must have been really disturbing for him.

Second one. SHIELD has been completely corrupted by HYDRA, and they're planning mass murder of potential enemies using three super Helicarriers. Cap is forced to flee from his former allies. Steve's old friend Bucky is revealed to have spent the past decades as a brainwashed HYDRA assassin. Carter is alive but bedridden and seems to be suffering from dementia.

Third one. Wanda accidentally kills civilians while redirecting Crossbones' suicide vest. We get shown previously unseen collateral damage from previous movies. Carter dies. Avengers essentially split. Rhodes is paralyzed. Nat is disappeared. Bucky chooses to go back into ice. Nobody seems to know where Thor and Hulk are. Only Stark and Vision remain active on the "official" team, which is now bound by the Accords. Everyone else, except for Spiderman who appears removed from the equation for now, is on Steve's side, and therefore international fugitives despite saving the world a few times.

Can't wait to see how the next Avengers film clears up the mess.

[Dienekes]

Somehow the Captain America films are kind of grim.

The first one ends with him choosing to crash into the ice and essentially jump into a future he doesn't understand, missing a lifetime he could have spent with Carter. The scene where they set up the fake 1940s hospital must have been really disturbing for him.

Second one. SHIELD has been completely corrupted by HYDRA, and they're planning mass murder of potential enemies using three super Helicarriers. Cap is forced to flee from his former allies. Steve's old friend Bucky is revealed to have spent the past decades as a brainwashed HYDRA assassin. Carter is alive but bedridden and seems to be suffering from dementia.

Third one. Wanda accidentally kills civilians while redirecting Crossbones' suicide vest. We get shown previously unseen collateral damage from previous movies. Carter dies. Avengers essentially split. Rhodes is paralyzed. Nat is disappeared. Bucky chooses to go back into ice. Nobody seems to know where Thor and Hulk are. Only Stark and Vision remain active on the "official" team, which is now bound by the Accords. Everyone else, except for Spiderman who appears removed from the equation for now, is on Steve's side, and therefore international fugitives despite saving the world a few times.

Can't wait to see how the next Avengers film clears up the mess.

I think the grimness has to be a part of Captain America movies to be palatable. Steve Rogers is in most things just an all around swell guy, morally upstanding, dedicated in his convictions, and (when written well) isn't a hypocrite about them. Which, honestly, in a vacuum isn't really an interesting or dynamic character. But a character whose main characteristic is morality becomes interesting when their morals are tested, when they are put in direct contrast to the bleakness of a setting. So, Cap movies kind of have to be a bit on the bleak side to make them interesting.

But, as to the Accords and if they were right.

In the real world, yes, the Avengers being forced to be put under collective oversight would be a good thing.

In the MCU, Hell no. We're talking about a setting where the first attempt at a cross-governmental oversight program on heroes 1) tried to nuke New York, which would have made it easier for conquering army to get a foothold on the planet. 2) Was entirely infiltrated by super-Nazis a couple of years ago. 3) The program is being lead by freaking Thunderbolt Ross. Ross! The idiot that actively antagonizes a living super weapon, and set up a triggering event of said super weapon in a university, and a crowded metropolis. Hell, if I was Cap I wouldn't sign the damn things either as long as that incompetent's name was within an inch of the plan.

[Kyberwulf]

Tony wasn't right. Bucky was given no attempt at a trial. It was KoS. The whole thing was too rushed, and they thought they could take down a superpowered being, with just normal guys.

The way I see it. The superpowered people are pretty much a Nation onto themselves. You don't just hand over your military might to a committee. I think that the Avengers should have created a council or something of normals in their own Tower, that would help them negotiate through Bureaucracy. In times of crisis though, they shouldn't have to wait, nor ask permission to act. It is more about the Hubris of man, to want to control everything, and to think you have the power to protect and defend yourself at all times. When Situations like the world ending events in the movies happen. It's more akin to a Major Natural event, then it is an act of an invading force. No matter how well equiped your armies are. you aren't going to be able to shoot a tornado down. Or Fly missiles into a Volcano to kill it. The best you are going to be able to do is help people move out of the way, and wait for it to be over.

My problems with this whole movie, and the mcu. Is that the world should have superpowered heroes of their own. I am talking about places like Europe, Asia, or Africa. I think Black Panther is a step in the right direction.

[Pex]

Tony wasn't right. Bucky was given no attempt at a trial. It was KoS. The whole thing was too rushed, and they thought they could take down a superpowered being, with just normal guys.

The way I see it. The superpowered people are pretty much a Nation onto themselves. You don't just hand over your military might to a committee. I think that the Avengers should have created a council or something of normals in their own Tower, that would help them negotiate through Bureaucracy. In times of crisis though, they shouldn't have to wait, nor ask permission to act. It is more about the Hubris of man, to want to control everything, and to think you have the power to protect and defend yourself at all times. When Situations like the world ending events in the movies happen. It's more akin to a Major Natural event, then it is an act of an invading force. No matter how well equiped your armies are. you aren't going to be able to shoot a tornado down. Or Fly missiles into a Volcano to kill it. The best you are going to be able to do is help people move out of the way, and wait for it to be over.

My problems with this whole movie, and the mcu. Is that the world should have superpowered heroes of their own. I am talking about places like Europe, Asia, or Africa. I think Black Panther is a step in the right direction.

Then you'd have Superhero Wars as nations attack each other by proxy if not direct. One nation's superhero is another nation's supervillain. What are people supposed to do if Captain China starts harassing Taiwan? Captain India and Captain Pakistan are duking it out in the Kashmir? As for what Team Israel constantly has to face . . .

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The superpowered people are pretty much a Nation onto themselves. [...] In times of crisis though, they shouldn't have to wait, nor ask permission to act.

No nation is allowed to send their military into another nation "in times of crisis" without permission. Those are called invasions, and they are generally frowned upon. In fact, it was the very fact that the Avengers deployed to the African nation without permission or, as far as we can tell, even bothering to inform the local government that caused the Sokovia accords in the first place. If the local authorities had known what was about to go down, they would have moved the diplomatic meeting well away from the epicenter, and probably would have been around to remove civilians. Instead, the Avengers got a heck of a lot of people in danger of the cross fire.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah I think Zemo is a good villain for a number of reasons. He achieved his goal with just determination, patience, and skills. But at the same time he lacks the memetastic charisma often attached to successful villains. He's a quiet, sad man who ends up tearing apart a genuine if flawed group of heroes. At no point in the movie (as I recall) does he ever start swaggering or even smiling about his achievement.

It also highlights T'challa as a heroic figure. After spending the movie pursuing Bucky, he finally gets to meet the real culprit, and then makes the effort to take him in alive. And then he chooses to harbour Bucky, at no small risk to his nation.

Arguably he has Bucky in a special SuperMax prison, which will be enough for most everyone.

[Leewei]

The way I see it. The superpowered people are pretty much a Nation onto themselves.

A couple of thoughts:

Some of the Avengers - Black Widow, Hawkeye, Iron Man, War Machine, Panther, Falcon - aren't superpowered. They have their own category as enormously talented, but non-super, people, often with special gadgets.

Secondly, that nation idea may be a good theme for future MCU movies and series. By their nature, those who have superpowers are separate from everyone else. The experience of being different is something that nearly all such beings will struggle with. It seems like individuals would define their identity as supers, even above race and national origin.

[Cikomyr]

Please be warned. Discussion of the Accords and the underlying politics led to the first Civil War thread to be closed.

[Murk]

Hm. While I found the movie overall to be quite alright (if I don't think about it too much), I really disliked Zemo as a villain. I seem to be in the minority here :smallsmile:

I have a thing against villains that are supposed to be "normal", "average guys" that are "strong adversaries without having powers" - I mostly dislike them because they do things that average guys without powers simply can't do.
Zemo knew a lot. He knew who to find. He knew who to talk to. He had secret classified footage from over thirty years ago. What made him even start looking for that? Just trying to think about the process behind his plan is confusing: so his family got killed, he decided he wanted revenge (so far so good), so he started digging in secrets of an organisation from decades ago, hoping to find material that could hurt the avengers? He somehow knew this would align with a big political shift? Did he actually expect to find information that would personally involve one of the Avengers? And in the end, when he was sitting in a secret base somewhere, and saw Cap and Bucky arrive, but not Stark, did he think "no problem, I just know Stark will turn up too!"

There's much more than that. To pull this all of, Zemo had to be some kind of psychic oracle that could personally bargain with the gods of fortune.
Which is no problem. It's a superhero movie after all. But then they tell me "oh, no, this is just a regular guy".

[Kyberwulf]

Well, that's the thing. If all the captain :insert Country name. did start something. That's what the Avengers are for. To step in and stop it. Which, by the way, is what happen in civil war. Captain America did step in when he wasn't suppose to and started things. What happen? The Avengers stepped up and put him in his place. Tony defeated the whole purpose of the Accord, but undermining it at every possible point he could. He was consistently ignoring Ross's orders in that whole movie. In the end, he put all of the villians into prison.

It also further proves my point, that the only one who can really stop villains are super heroes. Because Captain no shield did a one man break out, of their supermax prison.

Also, you can quibble all you want about what a "superhero" is, but come on. Most of those guys have superpowers. Basically meaning, the Training to use them, and the luck to not die. Every other "normal" human in that universe can't even do half of what those guys can do. Even the most, human of the group, Hawkeye. Can do a no look shoot down of a target that is going pretty fast. Black Widow is able to grab a vehicle going pretty fast, with no ill effect. Not to mention survive an explosion inside a truck, also with no ill effects. Falcon survived a point blank shot from Iron Man. Not to mention Iron Man is so smart he can basically do Technomancy. Black Panther was moving around pretty easily on those stairs doing jumps and falls like a Champ. I know Black people are good at physical stuff..but come on. Rhodes is pretty normal... Probably why he was the only one that was really hurt.. He still survived a pretty long fall, i would say probably a couple thousand feet. I still think he was the only one to get hurt was because he was the only racial Minority on the team, and they had to make room because they just got the Panther.

[Leewei]

I know Black people are good at physical stuff..but come on.
You may well have a good point, aside from this. Watch those stereotypes.

[Lethologica]

Those movies only work within the framework of the existing superhero narrative, Dark Knight and X2 dont need movies outside their franchises to hold them up
All of these movies depend on the established context of the superhero narrative. Their use of that context is a large part of what makes them good movies. Judging them by how well they work without context is therefore missing the point.

FWIW, I think all four are top-class superhero movies and great movies in general.

[Hopeless]

Zemo got access to the intel Widow released at the end of the Winter Soldier movie, he was able to use this to trace Hydra's involvement during their slow takeover of SHIELD to locate enough of their background to learn about the Winter Soldier and what part of the Russian Military had control over him.

Unlikely I know, but someone had to have told Pierce so he could make use of Bucky so if they wanted to maybe Zemo used that intel to locate something Pierce had hidden and discovered how Bucky was used as an assassin maybe he located an Arnim AI who used him to help get revenge on the Avengers as that's something that entity would do?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, remember that Zemo's research methods were a bit more direct than just reading a lot of stuff on the Net.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Black Panther's origin is not explored at all. He may have elite training, be biotechnologically or magically enhanced, or something like that.

Zemo's plan does seem to depend on a lot of specific things happening. But "just as planned" is a common occurrence for these kind of characters in fiction so I let it slide.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Black Panther's origin is not explored at all. He may have elite training, be biotechnologically or magically enhanced, or something like that.

Zemo's plan does seem to depend on a lot of specific things happening. But "just as planned" is a common occurrence for these kind of characters in fiction so I let it slide.

I don't know what the plans are in the MCU for T'Challa's powers but in the comics and other official fiction it's sometimes science, sometimes magic, and usually both. He definitely does have superpowers though, physical prowess at least to the level of Captain America, as much training as Hawkeye or Black Widow, and tech about the same level or better than Iron Man. He's like a homegrown Wakandan version of Thor.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Thanos will be awesome, but I don't know if he'll be able to beat Zemo as a villain. Part of what makes Zemo so awesome isn't just that he did so much with so little, but that he was by far the most human villain any of the Avengers have faced. He didn't want to take over the world or anything grandiose, he just wanted revenge for the deaths of his family, and his 'evil plan' (the world is better off without superheroes) is just compelling enough to be seductive.
I'd be interested to see if they're able to bring a similar quality into Thanos while also making him feel epic in scope. After all, his primary motivation is quite simple and even human: he wants to win the affection of his beloved.

[The Glyphstone]

I suspect they'll just have him out to conquer the universe, sadly. The metaphysical aspect of being in love with the anthropormorphic personification of Death might be a bit too out-there for the MCU.

But then again, they're bringing Ego The Living Planet in for GotG 2, so what do I know.

[LaZodiac]

I suspect they'll just have him out to conquer the universe, sadly. The metaphysical aspect of being in love with the anthropormorphic personification of Death might be a bit too out-there for the MCU.

But then again, they're bringing Ego The Living Planet in for GotG 2, so what do I know.

They have confirmed that yes, Thanos's motivation is related to his literal actual love of Death, the being.

[The Glyphstone]

They have confirmed that yes, Thanos's motivation is related to his literal actual love of Death, the being.

Really? Okay, that's a small relief. Now let's hope they do it properly.

[Blue Lantern]

I liked Civil War, but the fact that so much of the bud guy plan and the plot verged on a series of contrived coincidences kinda left a sour taste in my mouth in retrospective.

[Rogar Demonblud]

There's not a whole lot that's contrived. It's actually pretty easy to manipulate people, hence the continued existence of advertising. And it only gets easier when you have the psych profiles that tell you that Rhodey is only comfortable with a chain of command, Natasha is conditioned to take orders from anyone rather than use self-initiative, Rogers is intensely loyal to his friends and has learned not to trust authority figures (ditto Falcon) and Tony Stark is a mess with more issues than can be readily detailed, including the arrogance to think he's always right, a preference for letting anyone else handle the details (Stane, Pepper, Jarvis, Rogers, now Ross) and massive anger and resentment issues over losing his mother.

[Keltest]

There's not a whole lot that's contrived. It's actually pretty easy to manipulate people, hence the continued existence of advertising. And it only gets easier when you have the psych profiles that tell you that Rhodey is only comfortable with a chain of command, Natasha is conditioned to take orders from anyone rather than use self-initiative, Rogers is intensely loyal to his friends and has learned not to trust authority figures (ditto Falcon) and Tony Stark is a mess with more issues than can be readily detailed, including the arrogance to think he's always right, a preference for letting anyone else handle the details (Stane, Pepper, Jarvis, Rogers, now Ross) and massive anger and resentment issues over losing his mother.

indeed. He just needed them to fight. His goals were fairly broad.

[Dienekes]

There's not a whole lot that's contrived. It's actually pretty easy to manipulate people, hence the continued existence of advertising. And it only gets easier when you have the psych profiles that tell you that Rhodey is only comfortable with a chain of command, Natasha is conditioned to take orders from anyone rather than use self-initiative, Rogers is intensely loyal to his friends and has learned not to trust authority figures (ditto Falcon) and Tony Stark is a mess with more issues than can be readily detailed, including the arrogance to think he's always right, a preference for letting anyone else handle the details (Stane, Pepper, Jarvis, Rogers, now Ross) and massive anger and resentment issues over losing his mother.

Here's what I noticed a lot of times with the complaints about how lucky the villain needs to be. Sometimes the criticism is very much accurate, but sometimes it's because the people believe that the villains plan revolved around everything happening exactly as it happened or it would fail.

Take, Zemo here. His end goal was to have Cap and Iron Man fight each other. Which he accomplished in this movie, because Steve had escaped to Russia and Tony was following him.

Now, you can say that if Tony didn't learn about Zemo at that exact instant and tried to follow Steve to mend fences and take down the bad guy, the plot fails. So it relies on luck.

But, if you make a few concessions for the villain, it gets a lot easier to see how it worked. Zemo did not need all this to go down in Siberia. He just needed to get the tape and kill the other super soldiers. Done and done. From that point on, all he actually needs to do is get Steve, Tony, and Bucky in the same room. That could be a whole other month of plotting. But, look who's knocking on his front door? Well, that's exactly what he wants to happen so he rolls with it.

The one really huge part of his plan that required total luck. Was his posing as a psychiatrist. Not that he couldn't get records to make his image in place of whoever it was supposed to be. But that no one else on the premise knew the official UN psychiatrist they were calling in.

[Cikomyr]

Zemo deliberately revealed his Murderous Hotel Room at that specific moment. Remember he made a phone call to order breakfast. And had the main find the corpses.

He set up the coincidence.

[Clertar]

Regarding Zemo's plan, I have seen more convoluted.

http://67.media.tumblr.com/dc77a6a640548523743a7c762d4f7c85/tumblr_o9ic86OZUz1uorz8zo3_500.gif

[Blue Lantern]

There's not a whole lot that's contrived. It's actually pretty easy to manipulate people, hence the continued existence of advertising. And it only gets easier when you have the psych profiles that tell you that Rhodey is only comfortable with a chain of command, Natasha is conditioned to take orders from anyone rather than use self-initiative, Rogers is intensely loyal to his friends and has learned not to trust authority figures (ditto Falcon) and Tony Stark is a mess with more issues than can be readily detailed, including the arrogance to think he's always right, a preference for letting anyone else handle the details (Stane, Pepper, Jarvis, Rogers, now Ross) and massive anger and resentment issues over losing his mother.

And of course Zemo had perfect knowledge of the psychological profile of all the avengers, including two super secret agents and one guy who literally started existing two years before. Just the kind of info you can find on internet I guess. Ah right, he posed as a government psychologist, which is apparently extremely easy since is must be usual government practice to hire a guy you don't even know how it looks like. I am also sure that is standard procedure to not have any guards around when you are interrogating a suspected murderer.

Regarding his plan to have Cap and Iron Man fight, it was based on a tape he didn't even know it existed until halfway through the movie, considering he spent the first half trying to get the mission report from Bucky in the first place. (Coincidentally, I'm sure in the 60 small roads in the countryside were filled with surveillance cameras)

Plus to his own admission Zemo planned his revenge for a year. But the Avengers disagreement starts with the Sokovia accords. How could Zemo have known about the accords which were only proposed after the Nigeria disaster? Very coincidental for Nigeria to happen just as Zemo launches his plan.

Regarding Iron Man showing up in Siberia, the phone call alerted Iron Man, but he had to go to talk to Falcon to get the precise location, but I forgot Zemo is just so good that he can predict 100% what every avenger would do without fail, no coincidence or luck there, sure.

So yes, nothing contrived, right.

[Aedilred]

And of course Zemo had perfect knowledge of the psychological profile of all the avengers, including two super secret agents and one guy who literally started existing two years before. Just the kind of info you can find on internet I guess. Ah right, he posed as a government psychologist, which is apparently extremely easy since is must be usual government practice to hire a guy you don't even know how it looks like. I am also sure that is standard procedure to not have any guards around when you are interrogating a suspected murderer.

Regarding his plan to have Cap and Iron Man fight, it was based on a tape he didn't even know it existed until halfway through the movie, considering he spent the first half trying to get the mission report from Bucky in the first place. (Coincidentally, I'm sure in the 60 small roads in the countryside were filled with surveillance cameras)

Plus to his own admission Zemo planned his revenge for a year. But the Avengers disagreement starts with the Sokovia accords. How could Zemo have known about the accords which were only proposed after the Nigeria disaster? Very coincidental for Nigeria to happen just as Zemo launches his plan.

Regarding Iron Man showing up in Siberia, the phone call alerted Iron Man, but he had to go to talk to Falcon to get the precise location, but I forgot Zemo is just so good that he can predict 100% what every avenger would do without fail, no coincidence or luck there, sure.

So yes, nothing contrived, right.
Opportunism and flexibility. The idea that Zemo predicted what every Avenger would do with 100% reliability is, as you say, preposterous, but I don't think that's what the movie expects us to believe. He doesn't have to foresee exactly how they will respond or who will line up on each "team" or even whether they will form teams or just collapse into a collection of individuals who have nothing to do with each other to succeed in his plan. His plan is to set the Avengers against each other and effectively destroy them as an entity, and there are so many potential routes available to doing so that it's not that hard to pick the one that currently seems most likely to succeed and go with that.

The key axis he has to attack is the Stark-Cap relationship. He doesn't need to pull in all the Avengers (indeed, he doesn't, as Thor and Bruce Banner are absent throughout) and it doesn't matter a whit to him which side, say, Vision, picks, as long as he gets those two to turn against each other. The Avengers as a unit are built upon Cap's integrity and leadership supported by Tony's money and technical expertise. If the trust and cooperation between them is destroyed, the Avengers effectively cease to exist as a unit. Those are also the two Avengers whose characters are probably best known, so identifying points of vulnerability - like Cap's emotional vulnerability concerning Bucky, and Tony's over his parents (which he makes completely public knowledge at the start of the film even if it wasn't already obvious) - is really easy.

Remember that Black Widow dumped all the SHIELD files online. So stuff like the psychological profiles will be in there if he looks hard enough. By applying some independent research and following up on some leads he can presumably find some of the HYDRA stuff like the knowledge that they killed the Starks (in the 90s, iirc, not the 60s). After that it is just a question of working out which HYDRA asset was responsible, and the Winter Soldier seems like a good place to start. The Sokovia Accords provided a great opportunity because the bonds between the Avengers were already fraying: he introduced Bucky into the mix knowing Cap would respond, and things escalated from there.

As to assuming the identity of the psychologist, I think there has to be some allowance for Hollywood Identity Theft, although I think it's not as far-fetched as it might appear in any case. And the interrogation itself: Bucky was believed to be contained in what was functionally a separate room. It's like Clarice Starling interviewing Hannibal Lecter: there's no need for a guard because the subject can't get at the interviewer. Having armed guards in the room might prejudice the psych-analysis so better to keep them outside and observe remotely, which they do, so they can respond if there's an issue. That the containment unit was inadequte is obviously a problem, but that's just a simple error of judgment. Besides, given the way Bucky tore through everyone in the film who wasn't an Avenger, would having armed guards in the room actually have made a difference anyway? (Probably not.)

[Chen]

Honestly the camera on the road in the middle of nowhere was the biggest contrivance of the plot. How did they crash RIGHT next to a damn camera?

[Keltest]

And of course Zemo had perfect knowledge of the psychological profile of all the avengers, including two super secret agents and one guy who literally started existing two years before. Just the kind of info you can find on internet I guess.

It almost certainly is, for most of them. Remember that Black Widow uploaded all of SHIELD/HYDRA's data on everything to the internet and made it very, very public information. Probably the only people they wouldn't have profiles on are Black Panther, Vision and Spider Man, and it really isn't all that difficult to imagine that someone like Black Panther would be really, really unhappy were someone to go and murder his father.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

All that said, the fact Zemo seemed to be the only one to exploit the Widowleaks (:smalltongue:) data is a bit questionable. Nobody else tried to datamine that stuff? Someone with the resources and skills like Stark could have easily set a supercomputer or two to sift through it. Zemo, an otherwise normal special forces operative managed to find a chain that led him to Howard and Maria's death. Took him a while, but still.

But it's a minor thing overall. Stark was distracted by other things, while Zemo was really dedicated to his goal. That counts for something.

[Keltest]

All that said, the fact Zemo seemed to be the only one to exploit the Widowleaks (:smalltongue:) data is a bit questionable. Nobody else tried to datamine that stuff? Someone with the resources and skills like Stark could have easily set a supercomputer or two to sift through it. Zemo, an otherwise normal special forces operative managed to find a chain that led him to Howard and Maria's death. Took him a while, but still.

But it's a minor thing overall. Stark was distracted by other things, while Zemo was really dedicated to his goal. That counts for something.

Well, its a whole lot of data. World governments will probably take years to sift through it all, find what is useful and discard the rest. Zemo was specifically digging for information on Stark, and to a lesser extent the other Avengers, so by comparison he had a lot less data to work with.

[Leewei]

Honestly the camera on the road in the middle of nowhere was the biggest contrivance of the plot. How did they crash RIGHT next to a damn camera?

The camera was placed by Bucky to document his mission. He was also the one who caused the crash. This doesn't seem that unbelievable.

[Frozen_Feet]

Yeah. It was a plannes hit. Bucky likely filmed it to prove the mission was succesful.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And if it wasn't placed by Bucky, it was done by HYDRA.

Also, depending on the jurisdiction, the psychiatric evaluation wouldn't even have (muted) cameras on it, as it is a privileged communication (doctor-patient confidentiality).

The single biggest chance Zemo took was that the psychiatrist would be a white male of about his size and appearance. And he may have done (off-camera) research there. I can't imagine there's a long list of people in the 'evaluate mass-murdering terrorist' field.

[Blue Lantern]

It almost certainly is, for most of them. Remember that Black Widow uploaded all of SHIELD/HYDRA's data on everything to the internet and made it very, very public information. Probably the only people they wouldn't have profiles on are Black Panther, Vision and Spider Man, and it really isn't all that difficult to imagine that someone like Black Panther would be really, really unhappy were someone to go and murder his father.

Black Widow updated info regarding Shield and Hydra operations to avoid the government cover up, but I find it hard to believe that she would publish personal information regarding her friend and colleagues that would make them targets and put them in danger. Not to mention that was that the case, it would make the entire premise of Agent of Shield from season 2 onward basically impossible because you can not remake a secret service if all your agent identities have been leaked on the general public.


Opportunism and flexibility. The idea that Zemo predicted what every Avenger would do with 100% reliability is, as you say, preposterous, but I don't think that's what the movie expects us to believe. He doesn't have to foresee exactly how they will respond or who will line up on each "team" or even whether they will form teams or just collapse into a collection of individuals who have nothing to do with each other to succeed in his plan. His plan is to set the Avengers against each other and effectively destroy them as an entity, and there are so many potential routes available to doing so that it's not that hard to pick the one that currently seems most likely to succeed and go with that.

The key axis he has to attack is the Stark-Cap relationship. He doesn't need to pull in all the Avengers (indeed, he doesn't, as Thor and Bruce Banner are absent throughout) and it doesn't matter a whit to him which side, say, Vision, picks, as long as he gets those two to turn against each other. The Avengers as a unit are built upon Cap's integrity and leadership supported by Tony's money and technical expertise. If the trust and cooperation between them is destroyed, the Avengers effectively cease to exist as a unit. Those are also the two Avengers whose characters are probably best known, so identifying points of vulnerability - like Cap's emotional vulnerability concerning Bucky, and Tony's over his parents (which he makes completely public knowledge at the start of the film even if it wasn't already obvious) - is really easy.

Ok, the end goal is to create so much strain between Cap and Iron Man that they would be willing to kill each other, let's see how it goes.

Zeno studies the characters in question and learns about Stark murder and Bucky and make it the basis of his plan, fine, but if he already knows about the murder what is the point of him going torturing the hydra agents asking about the mission report in the first place?

Completely unrelated Sokovia happens, which leads to the accords proposal and conveniently to the first wedge between Cap and Iron Man.
So, Zeno has nothing to do with that, supposedly, and only saw it as an opportunity to further his plan, because somehow he knows that Stark would have a 180 degree change on his stance toward government oversight and it would be at odds with Cap on the matter, so he goes and bomb the conference framing Bucky, which would push a manhunt on the latter that would put Cap even more at odds with the government.

Bucky is conveniently hiding in Romania, at a believable distance from Vienna, where the bombing happens, had Bucky been in South America, South Africa or anywhere but europe it would have put some suspicion about his involvement, considering the difficulty a very recognisable supposed terrorist with a metal arm would have boarding a plane.
Does Zeno know Bucky whereabouts? Because if he did the question becomes, why not going to him before the bombing to activate him and avoid the whole framing and infiltrate a security facility in the first place, we will never know.

By the way since his entire plan hinges on Bucky being alive, if during the manhunt he dies or escapes (which he would have had it not been for Black Panther, the one character Zeno can not possibly know even existed), he is screwed, and unlikely at it may seems, it still means there are things that are left a bit to chance.
But still everything goes according to plan, Bucky is captured, so he goes in in incognito as a psychologist, because apparently authorisation papers do not include photos, and he gets to interrogate the prisoner alone, under no surveillance, and he can activate him in all tranquillity, and again ask about the mission report he supposedly already knows everything about, since it is the basis of his plan.

At this point Zeno let the Winter Soldier go on a rampage while he goes on his merry way to the secret Siberia facility stopping just to make a phone call that lead to the discovery of the real psychologist body and eventually learning that Bucky was framed in the first place.
In the meantime Cap subdues Bucky, and learn of the secret Siberia facility and the other super soldiers sleeping in there, and after a pit stop to duke it against Iron Man he goes as well, and after a while so does Iron Man, by the way Stark repulsor technology is really good, since despite having to bring Rodhes to an hospital, learn about the whole framing thing, go the prison in the middle of the ocean to convince Falcon to tell him the exact location, and still got there at the same time as Cap who took the direct route.
And those who say that had Iron Man not showed up right there it would have been the same, I don't buy it. Even with the almost killing after a couple of days Stark has cooled off enough to not take Ross call regarding Cap.

And now we reach the biggest plot hole of the entire movie, the magic tape whose entire existence defies logic, not only we have to believe there was a multi angle security camera on a countryside road right on the spot where a murder has been planned, one of which Bucky was well aware, by the way, because he shoot it just after the event, just in the right way to get a perfect frame shoot, and he had to recover the tape (I guess disabling the camera before, or doing the deeds a couple km down the road); but we also have Hydra keep the tape instead of destroying it for no logical reason whatsoever.


Remember that Black Widow dumped all the SHIELD files online. So stuff like the psychological profiles will be in there if he looks hard enough. By applying some independent research and following up on some leads he can presumably find some of the HYDRA stuff like the knowledge that they killed the Starks (in the 90s, iirc, not the 60s). After that it is just a question of working out which HYDRA asset was responsible, and the Winter Soldier seems like a good place to start. The Sokovia Accords provided a great opportunity because the bonds between the Avengers were already fraying: he introduced Bucky into the mix knowing Cap would respond, and things escalated from there.

Regarding the leak, as my point above, if we assume that it included personal information about every single Shield agents and associates we are opening an entirely new can of worms that would make Black Widow and Cap responsible for putting at risk the lives of each one of those agents and their families as well. So to remove an inconsistency we make an even bigger one.


As to assuming the identity of the psychologist, I think there has to be some allowance for Hollywood Identity Theft, although I think it's not as far-fetched as it might appear in any case. And the interrogation itself: Bucky was believed to be contained in what was functionally a separate room. It's like Clarice Starling interviewing Hannibal Lecter: there's no need for a guard because the subject can't get at the interviewer. Having armed guards in the room might prejudice the psych-analysis so better to keep them outside and observe remotely, which they do, so they can respond if there's an issue. That the containment unit was inadequte is obviously a problem, but that's just a simple error of judgment. Besides, given the way Bucky tore through everyone in the film who wasn't an Avenger, would having armed guards in the room actually have made a difference anyway? (Probably not.)

Considering that the activation process requires a lengthy sequence of words in russian, any non-braindead guard (as rare as they are in those kind of movies) should have been able to avoid it in the first place, so.

[Blue Lantern]

And if it wasn't placed by Bucky, it was done by HYDRA.

So, why Bucky shot the camera if it was his own, of Hidra's?

[Chen]

The camera was placed by Bucky to document his mission. He was also the one who caused the crash. This doesn't seem that unbelievable.


Yeah. It was a plannes hit. Bucky likely filmed it to prove the mission was succesful.

Wait what? Didn't Bucky shoot that camera afterwards?

And why would he need to document the mission? He proved it was successful by bringing the super soldier serum back to Hydra...

[Leewei]

Wait what? Didn't Bucky shoot that camera afterwards?

And why would he need to document the mission? He proved it was successful by bringing the super soldier serum back to Hydra...

I don't remember Bucky shooting it. In that case, Bucky didn't plant it, but clearly knew where it was. Looks like the intention was to kill someone in plain view of S.H.I.E.L.D. using a brainwashed hero in order to demoralize the organization. In any case, the placement of the camera and the crash are not coincidental.

[Blue Lantern]

I don't remember Bucky shooting it. In that case, Bucky didn't plant it, but clearly knew where it was. Looks like the intention was to kill someone in plain view of S.H.I.E.L.D. using a brainwashed hero in order to demoralize the organization. In any case, the placement of the camera and the crash are not coincidental.

And if that was the case Tony Stark would have had knowledge of the tape when he hacked Shield computers in the first Avenger movie.

[Dienekes]

And if that was the case Tony Stark would have had knowledge of the tape when he hacked Shield computers in the first Avenger movie.

If he was looking for a probably randomly marked video then yes he would have. But I think he was focused on finding out about the super nuke project.

[Frozen_Feet]

Zemo went to lengths to track down Bucky's former superior, and Bucky himself, to get that mission report. It likely wasn't in the leaked files.

[Blue Lantern]

I don't remember Bucky shooting it. In that case, Bucky didn't plant it, but clearly knew where it was. Looks like the intention was to kill someone in plain view of S.H.I.E.L.D. using a brainwashed hero in order to demoralize the organization. In any case, the placement of the camera and the crash are not coincidental.

There is also a point that I forgot, at that point in time Hydra had already gone underground inside Shield were considered defeated, so I would consider highly unlikely that they left a video message showcasing their own supersoldier, especially since we know from Captain America: Winter Soldier that the heads of Shield were blissfuly unaware of both.

So this theory doesn't hold much ground.

[Anteros]

I don't remember Bucky shooting it. In that case, Bucky didn't plant it, but clearly knew where it was. Looks like the intention was to kill someone in plain view of S.H.I.E.L.D. using a brainwashed hero in order to demoralize the organization. In any case, the placement of the camera and the crash are not coincidental.

Did shield even exist at this point? Even if they did this seems like a huge stretch.

[Hopeless]

If Arnim Zola was involved that would explain these plot holes wouldn't it?

So maybe his AI wasn't wiped out by that missile strike in the Winter Soldier would make an interesting reveal if he helped Zemo since he would have all the information and able to arrange everything so it wasn't actually a coincidence but everyone being unaware of who was behind Zemo?

Zola knows about the Winter Soldier, his uploaded consciousness was freed inadvertedly by the Widow using the downloaded SHIELD files to hide his survival and escape the only person who would actually know would be Zemo and why would he reveal his accomplice?

Would make an interesting addition to the Age of Ultron if he adjusted Stark's attempt to develop the Ultron AI using an old program designed by say Hank Pym?

Yes they rewrote his origin but there's nothing to say it was deliberately modified to cause Ultron's existence with the only witness having barely survived being wiped by Ultron it wouldn't be in Zola's interest to actually allow Ultron to succeed as he isn't a nihilist at least I assume he's not?

Is this a possible solution to this?

[Leewei]

Did shield even exist at this point? Even if they did this seems like a huge stretch.

The organization we're talking about was founded shortly after WWII to oppose Hydra. The shooting happened in 1991. Howard Stark, Sr. was a founder of S.H.I.E.L.D. Howard Stark, Jr. was Tony's father, and had strong ties to that organization.

There is no timeline issue - and there is certainly a motive for Hydra. Why do you consider this a stretch?

[Blue Lantern]

The organization we're talking about was founded shortly after WWII to oppose Hydra. The shooting happened in 1991. Howard Stark, Sr. was a founder of S.H.I.E.L.D. Howard Stark, Jr. was Tony's father, and had strong ties to that organization.

There is no timeline issue - and there is certainly a motive for Hydra. Why do you consider this a stretch?

At the cost of repeating myself there is a timeline issue in fact.


There is also a point that I forgot, at that point in time Hydra had already gone underground inside Shield were considered defeated, so I would consider highly unlikely that they left a video message showcasing their own supersoldier, especially since we know from Captain America: Winter Soldier that the heads of Shield were blissfuly unaware of both.

So this theory doesn't hold much ground.

[Leewei]

There is no timeline issue insofar as the founding of SHIELD is concerned. As far as Hydra goes, I'll have to re-watch the movie some time and see if they ever reveal why they decided they needed to kill Stark. Offhand, if he was close to discovering their infiltration of SHIELD, it would certainly motivate them into leaving the shadows to kill him.

[Blue Lantern]

There is no timeline issue insofar as the founding of SHIELD is concerned. As far as Hydra goes, I'll have to re-watch the movie some time and see if they ever reveal why they decided they needed to kill Stark. Offhand, if he was close to discovering their infiltration of SHIELD, it would certainly motivate them into leaving the shadows to kill him.

Hydra infiltration of Shield started basically at the foundation of the former., considering that part of

In none of the movie or the Agents of Shield series (as far as season 2, I stopped watching after that) there was any hint about Stark death being anywhere related to Shield or Hydra.

So again a theory that has no ground based on the movies canon.

And even were it to be true, it still there is no logical explanation for Hydra leaving the tape behind and risking discovery form someone inside Shield.

[LaZodiac]

Okay logic boy lets go over this.

Winter Soldier was made by Zola. Zola was put into Shield as part of it's german rehab thing after the war. Zola was part of the new heads of Hydra that infiltrated Shield from the very beginning.

So that's how it happened. He used the resources granted by Shield to restart the Winter Soldier, and used it to do stuff. The reason they kept the tape is because SOMEONE wanted proof of their deaths. Why? We can think of a few reasons, but I don't really think it matters all that much because whatever the reason, it's "why the tape still exists". That's really the end of the discussion.

[Blue Lantern]

Okay logic boy lets go over this.
[..]
So that's how it happened. He used the resources granted by Shield to restart the Winter Soldier, and used it to do stuff. The reason they kept the tape is because SOMEONE wanted proof of their deaths. Why? We can think of a few reasons, but I don't really think it matters all that much because whatever the reason, it's "why the tape still exists". That's really the end of the discussion.

I guess your definition of logic differs from mine.

A mysterious someone, invisible and unnamed despite his action having huge repercussion on the story, wanted a tape of the successful mission because:
A) Already having the super soldier serum is not enough.
B) Apparently the death of a multimillionaire does not make the news in the 90.
C) You are putting the entire underground organisation at risk of being exposed.
And it still does not explain why on earth the Winter Soldier shot the camera at the end.

So the tape exists because "reasons" that have very poor logical bearing no matter which way you cut it, how is that not contrived.

[Forum Explorer]

I guess your definition of logic differs from mine.

A mysterious someone, invisible and unnamed despite his action having huge repercussion on the story, wanted a tape of the successful mission because:
A) Already having the super soldier serum is not enough.
B) Apparently the death of a multimillionaire does not make the news in the 90.
C) You are putting the entire underground organisation at risk of being exposed.
And it still does not explain why on earth the Winter Soldier shot the camera at the end.

So the tape exists because "reasons" that have very poor logical bearing no matter which way you cut it, how is that not contrived.

The tape exists because of it's a movie. And not in the sense of 'it's a superhero story, don't think about it', but in the 'it's a visual medium, we need to show things, not narrate'.

In a more realistic situation? It'd be a file of an AAR. Maybe with a single photo of the hit. But that's not nearly as dramatic for an audience to witness, and Tony reading a file lacks the same impact as seeing the reaction to a tape that we can watch alongside him.

[Aedilred]

In none of the movie or the Agents of Shield series (as far as season 2, I stopped watching after that) there was any hint about Stark death being anywhere related to Shield or Hydra.

So again a theory that has no ground based on the movies canon.

And even were it to be true, it still there is no logical explanation for Hydra leaving the tape behind and risking discovery form someone inside Shield.

It was implied as heavily as it can be without being overtly stated in The Winter Soldier. When Cap finds Zola, Zola tells him about the history of the new HYDRA, with a comment along the lines of "when it looked like history wouldn't cooperate, history was changed" with a flash of a newspaper article reporting the deaths of Howard and Maria Stark (or possibly a death certificate?). Either way, it was pretty clear from that scene that HYDRA killed them. Hence why when Tony asked Cap if he knew his parents had been murdered, Cap answered that he did, but not that it was Bucky.

[Blue Lantern]

It was implied as heavily as it can be without being overtly stated in The Winter Soldier. When Cap finds Zola, Zola tells him about the history of the new HYDRA, with a comment along the lines of "when it looked like history wouldn't cooperate, history was changed" with a flash of a newspaper article reporting the deaths of Howard and Maria Stark (or possibly a death certificate?). Either way, it was pretty clear from that scene that HYDRA killed them. Hence why when Tony asked Cap if he knew his parents had been murdered, Cap answered that he did, but not that it was Bucky.

Fair enough, but I still don't see how having a second motive to kill Stark, besides stealing the serum, makes leaving a trace behind more logic.
In fact, if part of the reason for Stark death was to keep the secret keeping the incriminating evidence makes even less sense.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Fair enough, but I still don't see how having a second motive to kill Stark, besides stealing the serum, makes leaving a trace behind more logic.
In fact, if part of the reason for Stark death was to keep the secret keeping the incriminating evidence makes even less sense.

Keeping dirt on your our agents is sort of a security device for organisations that depend on full control of their agents like HYDRA.

GW

[Cikomyr]

What i wonder is how little effort was made to CSI the accident scene. After all, Winter Soldier shot at the car once to make it veer off road, and then shot at the camera. There must have remained some bullet casing.

[Rakaydos]

What i wonder is how little effort was made to CSI the accident scene. After all, Winter Soldier shot at the car once to make it veer off road, and then shot at the camera. There must have remained some bullet casing.

5 bucks says Shield took juristiction and "every effort" was made. Heil Hydra.

[LaZodiac]

What i wonder is how little effort was made to CSI the accident scene. After all, Winter Soldier shot at the car once to make it veer off road, and then shot at the camera. There must have remained some bullet casing.

I mean that's two shots and he's a professional. He can and would just...pick those up.

[Cikomyr]

I mean that's two shots and he's a professional. He can and would just...pick those up.

Wasnt the scene shown in its entirety?

[Leewei]

Fair enough, but I still don't see how having a second motive to kill Stark, besides stealing the serum, makes leaving a trace behind more logic.
In fact, if part of the reason for Stark death was to keep the secret keeping the incriminating evidence makes even less sense.
Zola's algorithm would have been up and running in 1991, and would have been advising those calling the shots. No clear reason is needed other than the program said he had to die.

[Frozen_Feet]

Wasnt the scene shown in its entirety?

Captain Obvious speaking: no, the tape stopped at Bucky killing the cam. Since Zemo had to find Bucky and Bucky's former superior to get Bucky's mission report, it would be reasonable to presume the tape, whatever remained of the camera, as well as all other obvious evidence, were collected by Bucky and delivered to his superiors. Come on, where does Zemo play the tape? In the secret base where the other Winter Soldiers, that had trained with Bucky, were in. It's entirely possible he didn't have access to the tape untill then.

[Blue Lantern]

Keeping dirt on your our agents is sort of a security device for organisations that depend on full control of their agents like HYDRA.

GW

Considering the agent in question is under mind control and likely would not care much about blackmailing for that very reason, that seems unreasonably risky.


Zola's algorithm would have been up and running in 1991, and would have been advising those calling the shots. No clear reason is needed other than the program said he had to die.

You keep missing the point, Hydra killing Stark is not the problem. Hydra keeping incriminating evidence is.

[Keltest]

Considering the agent in question is under mind control and likely would not care much about blackmailing for that very reason, that seems unreasonably risky.



You keep missing the point, Hydra killing Stark is not the problem. Hydra keeping incriminating evidence is.

Sure, but it doesn't incriminate them, it incriminates their secret assassin/scapegoat. Heck, they could have kept it under the pretense of investigating Stark's murder.

[lord_khaine]

Well, keeping the tape could be explained by being part of a stupidly complicated Hydra Plan plan to divert attention away from themselves, in case the wrong sort of protagonist had taken an interest in Howard Starks death.
But they newer did, and the plan were filed and forgotten.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What i wonder is how little effort was made to CSI the accident scene. After all, Winter Soldier shot at the car once to make it veer off road, and then shot at the camera. There must have remained some bullet casing.

IIRC the exposition scene in the hospital in winter soldier, Bucky uses either caseless or riffling-less bullets.

GW

[Leewei]

You keep missing the point, Hydra killing Stark is not the problem. Hydra keeping incriminating evidence is.
This isn't me missing the point so much as you moving the goalposts. Please refer to your own quote about the timeline issue with Hydra being in hiding.

As far as Hydra keeping evidence of a hit, this was already addressed by other posters. This is an organization with a very well-established practice of keeping dirt on people.

[Blue Lantern]

This isn't me missing the point so much as you moving the goalposts. Please refer to your own quote about the timeline issue with Hydra being in hiding.

As far as Hydra keeping evidence of a hit, this was already addressed by other posters. This is an organization with a very well-established practice of keeping dirt on people.

Ok, let's refer my original quote, and the one of yours I was responding to. Bolded for emphasis.


I don't remember Bucky shooting it. In that case, Bucky didn't plant it, but clearly knew where it was. Looks like the intention was to kill someone in plain view of S.H.I.E.L.D. using a brainwashed hero in order to demoralize the organization. In any case, the placement of the camera and the crash are not coincidental.


There is also a point that I forgot, at that point in time Hydra had already gone underground inside Shield were considered defeated, so I would consider highly unlikely that they left a video message showcasing their own supersoldier, especially since we know from Captain America: Winter Soldier that the heads of Shield were blissfuly unaware of both.

So this theory doesn't hold much ground.

No goalpost moved, my entire point is about the illogicality of keeping the tape, because it only puts the Hydra at risk of being exposed.

And what exactly you need dirt for on an agent that has been brainwashed???

I can imagine the scene, had Bucky somehow completely broken the brainwash.

"Yes, we made you kill Staks, and if you don't behave we are going to tell everyone"
... plomf ... thud ... Hydra agent skull is smashed


Sure, but it doesn't incriminate them, it incriminates their secret assassin/scapegoat. Heck, they could have kept it under the pretense of investigating Stark's murder.

So, Hydra is in hiding and presumed destroyed, no one suspects anything, except maybe Stark, so they have him killed, except instead of making in look like a normal car crash (except they did, because those were the headlines) they keep a tape that proves that someone send a special agent, which by the was looks suspiciously similar to a well known american hero who was declared MIA during a mission on a Hydra base, with a metal arm to kill one of the founders of Shield, and to steal the super soldier serum.

What exactly is that move supposed to accomplish except starting a really deep investigation that put Hydra hiding at risk. I suppose we can invent some other nebulous organisation that Hydra was trying to frame, despite no evidence of such existing in any canon.

No one really see how much mental gymnastic is used to justify that plot device?

[Kyberwulf]

Not really, the chance of Hydra being exposed by anyone where pretty slim. You keep forgetting how many people Hydra had planted everywhere. Keeping the tape wasn't to much of a concern really. I mean think of how much power they had, if they didn't even care about a single tape that could do a lot of damage.

I don't think the Baron really had one plan to defeat the Avengers. I think he had a bunch of strings of plans, that all seem to coalesce at this particular moment in time. He could have been following the Winter Soldier lead. That somehow stumbled him into something that happen on some cold wintery night. Which after seeing that, he could have been like. Woah, this is what I need to fracture the Avenger team. Woah, The Avengers messed up so monumentally that their is a hearing about how to get them all in one spot? Sweet. HEY, maybe this is where I can trick them into catching The winter soldier. Ha, I got to the winter soldier, now to find out what happen on that night. Woah, this can totally help me destroy the Avengers. First I have to go kill all the other super soldiers, wait, Bucky and Cap are heading my way? If only Iron Man where coming too... what?! Sweet gods of vengeance, what did I do to get him to come along.

Obviously, this isn't how he would go about saying it, or planning it. It could go something along that lines though.

[Blue Lantern]

Not really, the chance of Hydra being exposed by anyone where pretty slim. You keep forgetting how many people Hydra had planted everywhere. Keeping the tape wasn't to much of a concern really. I mean think of how much power they had, if they didn't even care about a single tape that could do a lot of damage.

I don't think the Baron really had one plan to defeat the Avengers. I think he had a bunch of strings of plans, that all seem to coalesce at this particular moment in time. He could have been following the Winter Soldier lead. That somehow stumbled him into something that happen on some cold wintery night. Which after seeing that, he could have been like. Woah, this is what I need to fracture the Avenger team. Woah, The Avengers messed up so monumentally that their is a hearing about how to get them all in one spot? Sweet. HEY, maybe this is where I can trick them into catching The winter soldier. Ha, I got to the winter soldier, now to find out what happen on that night. Woah, this can totally help me destroy the Avengers. First I have to go kill all the other super soldiers, wait, Bucky and Cap are heading my way? If only Iron Man where coming too... what?! Sweet gods of vengeance, what did I do to get him to come along.

Obviously, this isn't how he would go about saying it, or planning it. It could go something along that lines though.


I am not forgetting, I just think very stupid to keep a tape that present a risk, however minimal, for no discernible reason whatsoever.

Regarding Zemo, either he did not have a full plan but got what the perfect opportunity to get what he wants thanks to a long series of very lucky coincidences, or he had a plan all along, in that case he must be a seer of sort.

[LaZodiac]

I am not forgetting, I just think very stupid to keep a tape that present a risk, however minimal, for no discernible reason whatsoever.

Ok, so either he did not have a full plan but got what the perfect opportunity to get what he wants thanks to a long series of very lucky coincidences, or he had a plan all along, in that case he must be a seer of sort.

Yes. The former. We know this.

Zemo told the Hydra agent he killed that if he just gave him what he wanted he wouldn't even need to blow up people. In the process of dealing with that, he found that tape and went "ooh, nice. This could help."

Hell, maybe that's where the tape even was, the facility they were training the other Winter Soldiers.

[The Glyphstone]

He doesn't need to be a master Machiavellian schemer, he just needs to be really good at improvising as he goes along.

[Blue Lantern]

Yes. The former. We know this.

Zemo told the Hydra agent he killed that if he just gave him what he wanted he wouldn't even need to blow up people. In the process of dealing with that, he found that tape and went "ooh, nice. This could help."

Hell, maybe that's where the tape even was, the facility they were training the other Winter Soldiers.

Ok, so that bring us to the original opinion that sparked this whole debate, Civil War is a good movie, but the majority of the plot hinges on a series of unlikely coincidences one after another in the right order (aka contrived) to work.

That said, I don't wish to derail the thread anymore than I already have, to each his own opinion.

Cheers.

[Leewei]

Ok, let's refer my original quote, ...

Point ceded. Your entire objection is the recording, not Stark's killing.

That said, Hydra knew Bucky was Captain America's good friend, as well as a hero of WWII. The "dirt" isn't just on Bucky; it's on all of his friends and the agency that created him as well. The same thing that made the recording valuable to Zemo made it entirely worth the small effort Hydra made to create and hide it.

[Cikomyr]

Since no one knew that Hydra still existed, its possible the evidence was kept to incriminate the alleged controller of the Winter Soldier; the Soviets

[Joran]

Since no one knew that Hydra still existed, its possible the evidence was kept to incriminate the alleged controller of the Winter Soldier; the Soviets

Or maybe Hydra has a fanatical devotion to keeping accurate records.

Or maybe they kept it for training purposes, both for Winter Soldier himself or for future ones.

[Thinker]

I thought that the tape was for an after action report. Keep an eye on your assets, see how they make mistakes and how to ensure that those mistakes don't happen next time around. Sports teams of all kinds review tape all the time. Militaries keep AAR's and review them constantly. This is reinforced by the tape being located at the Winter Soldier training facility. Shooting the camera is silly, but I'm not going to quibble over how the Winter Soldier decides to collect his gear.

I can forgive the plot for being contrived. Reality is contrived if you think too hard about it - the exact circumstances had to occur for your life to end up as it is now. Besides, it's just a movie and most movies have to put things into a 2-hour format.

[Kyberwulf]

Of course it the plot hinges on the fact that this is a movie. How many other movies does that happen in? Yeah, we are suppose to buy that he got lucky in all his "planning" because if he didn't, he would be part of the movie.

I don't think you realize, just how many plots and schemes Hydra had going on that the moment. It is being made to seem like, the killing of the Starks was the only thing on their plate. I am sure it was like, Oh, hey. Winter Soldier did that thing,... Good. What should we do with the tape he brought back? .. um.. well we got some other stuff spinning out of control, put it over there with the rest of the files that need to be reviewed, and we will deal with it later.

[The Glyphstone]

Or maybe Hydra has a fanatical devotion to keeping accurate records.

Or maybe they kept it for training purposes, both for Winter Soldier himself or for future ones.

And now I have to wonder about Hydra's bureaucracy.

"Clean out one file cabinet, two more shall take its place!"

[Leewei]

Or maybe Hydra has a fanatical devotion to keeping accurate records.

Or maybe they kept it for training purposes, both for Winter Soldier himself or for future ones.

Some reasons that occur to me are:
1. Make sure Winter Soldier actually obeyed his orders, rather than helping to fake the Starks' deaths.
2. Evaluate Winter Soldier's performance to make sure their brainwashing wasn't slipping.
3. Potentially provide additional input for the algorithm.

[Sapphire Guard]

He doesn't need to be a master Machiavellian schemer, he just needs to be really good at improvising as he goes along.

And be massively, massively lucky. If Bucky is able to escape his cell slightly more quickly or slightly more slowly, he's in trouble, because either he doesn't finish the sequence or the Avengers arrive and contain them both. If vision shows up at the end confrontation, he just phases through the shield and takes him in instantly.

And how does he beat a Quinjet to Siberia anyway?

[Joran]

And now I have to wonder about Hydra's bureaucracy.

"Clean out one file cabinet, two more shall take its place!"

NOBODY expects the HYDRA Infiltration!

Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless organization, an almost fanatical devotion to Red Skull, and nice black uniforms.

[Frozen_Feet]

You keep missing the point, Hydra killing Stark is not the problem. Hydra keeping incriminating evidence is.

Said "incriminating evidence" was stashed in an abandoned Soviet bunker. A grand total of two people are shown knowing it even exists at the start of the movie:

1) Bucky, the guy who did it.
2) Former Soviet officer, the boss of tje guy who did it.

During the movie, three more are added to the tally:

3) Zemo, who interrogated both of the former.
4) Cap, who is best friends with the guy who did it.
5) Tony, who was told by the above.

Also, Wintee Soldier being Hydra was not common knowledge at the time; Bucky was nominally acting under the Soviets. And USSR went belly-up and the entire project was abandoned soon after. This data was truly and well orphaned.


Yes. The former. We know this.

Zemo told the Hydra agent he killed that if he just gave him what he wanted he wouldn't even need to blow up people. In the process of dealing with that, he found that tape and went "ooh, nice. This could help."

Hell, maybe that's where the tape even was, the facility they were training the other Winter Soldiers.

It's pretty clear Zemo is running plan B for most of the movie. Ousting Bucky was clearly second-choice for him.

This isn't the same as "everything was coincidence/luck"; the bombing, masquerading as Bucky, impersonating the psychylogist, all of those were clearly planned.

[Clertar]

I thought they were just monitoring the Winter Soldier a lot, and then probably analyzing every detail in the videos of his missions (e.g. for any traces of mental issues that required an extra mind swipe).

[ben-zayb]

And be massively, massively lucky. If Bucky is able to escape his cell slightly more quickly or slightly more slowly, he's in trouble, because either he doesn't finish the sequence or the Avengers arrive and contain them both. If vision shows up at the end confrontation, he just phases through the shield and takes him in instantly.

And how does he beat a Quinjet to Siberia anyway?
Also lucky that Bucky doesn't have enough common sense to just have his ear plugged, or that Vision didn't just do precision strikes to disable the plane preflight.

[Pronounceable]

I like these movies but I dunno. You have this actress, Scarlett Johansson, and this character, Scarlet Witch, but they're different. It ruins my immersion...

[Lvl45DM!]

Also lucky that Bucky doesn't have enough common sense to just have his ear plugged, or that Vision didn't just do precision strikes to disable the plane preflight.

This kind of thing will always annoy me.
Its the easiest thing in the world to sit back and make armchair judgement about whats "common sense" but it requires you to ignore everything about Buckys character. He's brain damaged, depressed, furious, haunted by PTSD on a scale unknown to mankind previously and has spent the last 70 years doing nothing but kill and buy plums. So he doesnt think to plug his ears.

Vision didn't destroy their plane because that was...yknow, their plane. Thats how they got there and its how they'd get home. Assuming Vision did break the plane that just changes Cap's plan to steal a different plane and get to siberia slower. Or flee the combat zone and steal a car. Besides even if Vision did break the plane, how exactly do they plan to HOLD Captain America since they can no longer quickly transport him in a high tech flying machine?

[lord_khaine]

I like these movies but I dunno. You have this actress, Scarlett Johansson, and this character, Scarlet Witch, but they're different. It ruins my immersion...

This concept confuses me on the other hand. But i guess its because i dont see Scarlett Johanson anywhere in the movie. I see Black Widow, and thats it.

[Chen]

Vision didn't destroy their plane because that was...yknow, their plane. Thats how they got there and its how they'd get home. Assuming Vision did break the plane that just changes Cap's plan to steal a different plane and get to siberia slower. Or flee the combat zone and steal a car. Besides even if Vision did break the plane, how exactly do they plan to HOLD Captain America since they can no longer quickly transport him in a high tech flying machine?

The fight itself is a weird contrivance of not really trying to kill each other, but clearing doing things that WOULD have killed other people had they not defended against it. I mean look at how Vision took out War Machine in a single shot. That was aimed at Falcon. What the hell would have happened if it had hit him? His suit is not nearly as protective as War Machine's, that blast probably would have blown him apart. Even if it just took out a wing, what was the plan there anyways? Let him just fall to his death? Vision was nowhere near close enough to grab him and Iron man was clearly not ready to catch him (he didn't catch war machine). There's a lot of fridge logic to look at in that fight, just like there is in any fight between "allies" where they don't really want to kill each other.

[Keltest]

The fight itself is a weird contrivance of not really trying to kill each other, but clearing doing things that WOULD have killed other people had they not defended against it. I mean look at how Vision took out War Machine in a single shot. That was aimed at Falcon. What the hell would have happened if it had hit him? His suit is not nearly as protective as War Machine's, that blast probably would have blown him apart. Even if it just took out a wing, what was the plan there anyways? Let him just fall to his death? Vision was nowhere near close enough to grab him and Iron man was clearly not ready to catch him (he didn't catch war machine). There's a lot of fridge logic to look at in that fight, just like there is in any fight between "allies" where they don't really want to kill each other.

Doesn't Falcon have like a parachute in his suit? I could have sworn he's been blown out of the sky at least once before without entering a high speed relationship with Planet Earth.

[LaZodiac]

The fight itself is a weird contrivance of not really trying to kill each other, but clearing doing things that WOULD have killed other people had they not defended against it. I mean look at how Vision took out War Machine in a single shot. That was aimed at Falcon. What the hell would have happened if it had hit him? His suit is not nearly as protective as War Machine's, that blast probably would have blown him apart. Even if it just took out a wing, what was the plan there anyways? Let him just fall to his death? Vision was nowhere near close enough to grab him and Iron man was clearly not ready to catch him (he didn't catch war machine). There's a lot of fridge logic to look at in that fight, just like there is in any fight between "allies" where they don't really want to kill each other.

And as you'll recall the Vision said outright he didn't know WHY he did that, it was something he did "in a panic" basically. Yes, he probably would of done some serious harm to Falcon if he missed, that's the point.

It's no contrived, and in truth Vision's blast is the only thing that really would of seriously injured anyone. Everyone else was clearly pulling their punches, or in the case of Spiderman and Antman, punching above their weight class but lacking the experience, and everyone who fought them kinda knew that.

[Chen]

And as you'll recall the Vision said outright he didn't know WHY he did that, it was something he did "in a panic" basically. Yes, he probably would of done some serious harm to Falcon if he missed, that's the point.

Hmm I thought Tony asked him to shoot down Falcon. What he didn't know was why he missed I thought (all confused by Scarlet Witch being hurt and all). He was initially aiming at Falcon though, which is why I criticized how much power was in that blast. It's MORE fortunate that he missed because had Falcon taken that fully he probably wouldn't have been quite dead.



It's no contrived, and in truth Vision's blast is the only thing that really would of seriously injured anyone. Everyone else was clearly pulling their punches, or in the case of Spiderman and Antman, punching above their weight class but lacking the experience, and everyone who fought them kinda knew that.

It's things like Ant Man trying to step on people. Yes they got out of the way, but he looked like he was really trying. Had he connected on a good number of people there they would have been severely injured/killed. Hawkeye was shooting arrow's at someone's face (not Iron Man) which would have easily been deadly if the person didn't dodge them. Forget how well you know someone what if they slipped up? What if the ground shook from something else going on? Yes it made the scene look cool, but a lot was not so much "pulling punches" but "lucky the person managed to dodge that otherwise deadly attack".

[LaZodiac]

Hmm I thought Tony asked him to shoot down Falcon. What he didn't know was why he missed I thought (all confused by Scarlet Witch being hurt and all). He was initially aiming at Falcon though, which is why I criticized how much power was in that blast. It's MORE fortunate that he missed because had Falcon taken that fully he probably wouldn't have been quite dead.

It's things like Ant Man trying to step on people. Yes they got out of the way, but he looked like he was really trying. Had he connected on a good number of people there they would have been severely injured/killed. Hawkeye was shooting arrow's at someone's face (not Iron Man) which would have easily been deadly if the person didn't dodge them. Forget how well you know someone what if they slipped up? What if the ground shook from something else going on? Yes it made the scene look cool, but a lot was not so much "pulling punches" but "lucky the person managed to dodge that otherwise deadly attack".

Considering the people, Antman stepping on them would of done jack all. And I'm pretty sure the only people Hawkeye shoots arrows at are people who he routinely shoots arrows at for training. He also clearly holds back, Widow says as much.

[Douglas]

As I recall, Vision's blast was specifically aimed for a precise hit on the propulsion part of Falcon's gear, which if it worked as intended would have knocked him out of the sky without direct injury. He might even still have been able to glide with the wings intact, thus enabling a safe landing.

From a conversation later in the movie, both Tony and Vision thought Vision had 100% guaranteed accuracy, and Vision is quite surprised and troubled that he hit something other than intended.

[Chen]

Considering the people, Antman stepping on them would of done jack all. And I'm pretty sure the only people Hawkeye shoots arrows at are people who he routinely shoots arrows at for training. He also clearly holds back, Widow says as much.

I don't know about Ant-Man not doing severe damage to people if he stepped on them. He was able to pull the wing off an aircraft so I have to assume his strength/mass increased with his size growth there. He still could crush an iron man suit or someone like Black Panther.

With Hawkeye, even if you are holding back, why would you aim at someone's head if you didn't intend to seriously injure them? I even mentioned there could be any number of circumstances where the person he knew could dodge would stumble or the like and bam, dead. It's done to make the action look better, but it's terrible thing to do if you're not really trying to kill people.

[Cikomyr]

I wanna know. Does Ant-man's mass change or not?

[Dienekes]

I wanna know. Does Ant-man's mass change or not?

Depends on the writer, and if that writer remembers what he originally said when it comes up.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I wanna know. Does Ant-man's mass change or not?

Old mentor said it does not, but most available evidence indicates that it does (e.g. running atop a gun that is being held at arms length without causing the gun to dip, being able to ride ants, etc.). He might not have the proportional mass or strength you'd expect for the size (e.g. leaving a bump in the car when he hits it, throwing toys around when small), but he does not retain full mass.

GW

[The Glyphstone]

The film evidence seems to weigh in on MCU Antman being able to selectively alter his mass/density as he chooses when changing size.

[lord_khaine]

or in the case of Spiderman and Antman, punching above their weight class but lacking the experience, and everyone who fought them kinda knew that.

I would say none of the people Spiderman fought against were up in his weight class, he is deceptively powerful in a straight up slugging match. His strenght certainly seemed to surprise his opponents.


With Hawkeye, even if you are holding back, why would you aim at someone's head if you didn't intend to seriously injure them? I even mentioned there could be any number of circumstances where the person he knew could dodge would stumble or the like and bam, dead. It's done to make the action look better, but it's terrible thing to do if you're not really trying to kill people.

Kinda agree, he dont seem to have any boxing glove arrows, so aiming towards someones head does seem like one of the most unsafe and risky things done the entire fight.
As demonstrated by Vision, who KNEW he had mechanical, 100 % accuracy, but still managed to fumble a shoot.

[LaZodiac]

I would say none of the people Spiderman fought against were up in his weight class, he is deceptively powerful in a straight up slugging match. His strenght certainly seemed to surprise his opponents.

Kinda agree, he dont seem to have any boxing glove arrows, so aiming towards someones head does seem like one of the most unsafe and risky things done the entire fight.
As demonstrated by Vision, who KNEW he had mechanical, 100 % accuracy, but still managed to fumble a shoot.

Kinda meant more "tactically" wise. These guys know he's a kid so they pull their punches, but he's strong enough to beat em up pretty well actually so it's a weird situation where both are holding back in some way, on purpose or not.

Yeah, and that's the risks he was taking, which is why if I recall he only really shot arrows at people like Cap or Widow, people he knew could take it in some way. But if there was a slip up...that's bad. And that's actively the point of the scene. A bunch of people trying to fight each other as carefully as possible, each waiting for a minor slip up to end it.

As for Antman...the only people in this fight that couldn't in some way survive getting stepped on by him are Hawkeye and Widow. One of them is on his team and the other is too agile for that.

[Cikomyr]

I have to agree that Spider could probably have tanked a punch from pretty much everyone of these guys.

Hell. He casually blocked Winter Soldier's cyberpunch, which is probably on par with Iron Man's suit, and probably stronger than Cap.

Among the Avengers, only Hulk and Thor outclass him. And also Vision, but thats only because Vision cheats.

[Lethologica]

I have to agree that Spider could probably have tanked a punch from pretty much everyone of these guys.

Hell. He casually blocked Winter Soldier's cyberpunch, which is probably on par with Iron Man's suit, and probably stronger than Cap.

Among the Avengers, only Hulk and Thor outclass him. And also Vision, but thats only because Vision cheats.
Scarlet Witch. /nitpick

[Cikomyr]

Potentially. Except if he gets the drop on her.

But i think he could take her, but its not a sure thing.

[Dienekes]

Potentially. Except if he gets the drop on her.

But i think he could take her, but its not a sure thing.

Are we just judging powers or are we also going personality and history?

Cuz yeah Spidey should be able to beat Captain America. Only I'm pretty sure the three times they fought that I know of Cap has kicked his ass.

Usually with the explanation that he's just that much better a fighter the power difference didn't matter. Which works, I guess, since Cap has fought Hulk before and is still alive

[lord_khaine]

Usually with the explanation that he's just that much better a fighter the power difference didn't matter. Which works, I guess, since Cap has fought Hulk before and is still alive

Kinda dump explanation though, since Spider man is supposedly superhuman fast and agile. Dont really matter if your the better fighter when the opponents punches are litteraly going to fast for you to block.
But its general for writers to seemingly underestimate just how potent speed is.

[Clertar]

Kinda dump explanation though, since Spider man is supposedly superhuman fast and agile. Dont really matter if your the better fighter when the opponents punches are litteraly going to fast for you to block.
But its general for writers to seemingly underestimate just how potent speed is.

Spider-man is so strong, and Peter is such a nice guy, that he's basically always holding back his strength. Superior Spider-man was surprised to realize that in the previous Dr Octopus - Spidey fights, Spider-man was hitting significantly less hard than he could have.

Captain America can't do this (http://i.gyazo.com/30597d6745f153d8119fca6e47480897.gif), for example, but when it comes to harming other people Spider-man doesn't hit with that strength, especially if it's other good guys, he loses a big part of the advantage he'd have on Cap.

[Chen]

Yeah it's definitely story reasons/character personality that prevent Spidy from wiping the floor with a number of the people in that fight. 616 Spidy is lifting in the 20ish ton range I think. If he was going full out he should easily have been able to take out Cap and Bucky.

[Dienekes]

Spider-man is so strong, and Peter is such a nice guy, that he's basically always holding back his strength. Superior Spider-man was surprised to realize that in the previous Dr Octopus - Spidey fights, Spider-man was hitting significantly less hard than he could have.

Captain America can't do this (http://www.comicbookkid.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/the-amazing-spider-man-2-dead-lifting-a-cop-car1-1024x599.jpg), for example, but when it comes to harming other people Spider-man doesn't hit with that strength, especially if it's other good guys, he loses a big part of the advantage he'd have on Cap.

Don't underestimate the Cap. Ok he might not be as strong as Spidey but he can lift a lot

http://m.imgur.com/butRPnR?r

I think the explanation given usually is Cap naturally fights battles like a master tactician. In that he can basically do the Sherlock Holmes thing (from the Downey Jr movies) and can tell what the opponent is going to do before the fight even begins. That plus a shield that straight negates all force behind any of Spidey's attacks makes it a fight, even if still logically Spidey should have the advantage.

[Cikomyr]

So... Basically what he does in the movie?

He figures out Spidey's style and gives him a few good licks

[Clertar]

Don't underestimate the Cap. Ok he might not be as strong as Spidey but he can lift a lot

http://m.imgur.com/butRPnR?r

Still an abbyss between them. I see your statue and raise you a tank (http://pm1.narvii.com/5858/425b3cc1834382e1062f50631275c4d676dda1a2_hq.jpg) and a train (http://pm1.narvii.com/5822/aeb22e409dba6058a8d1958fb9da9a4e3d5cd38a_hq.jpg) :smallwink:

[Chen]

Not to mention spiderman has his spidey sense too. Even Cap being a master tactician shouldn't really let him beat him in a stand-up fight.

[Legato Endless]

So... Basically what he does in the movie?

He figures out Spidey's style and gives him a few good licks

The film version is justified enough because Cap is blatantly superhuman and Peter is a total rookie. Most comic versions only work by writer fiat, where Peter is an order of magnitude faster, stronger, far more agile, coupled with precognition. Not to mention he's sometimes more relevantly experienced in metahuman fights.

Even the holding back explanation doesn't really work. There's nothing stopping Peter from casually dodging everything Cap throws and wrapping him up nonlethally with a substance capable of immobilizing various incarnations of the Hulk.

[Kyberwulf]

How did this turn into a Spiderman Vs. Captain America fight?

Anywho, Captain America Wins. In this scenario at least.

Power vs. Power, yeah, Cap would lose. He is outclassed in almost every way. The only thing I think Captain America Has on Spiderman, is his ability to think superfast.. or something like that. Also, Spiderman, doesn't have precog. He has instant reaction and some pretty good reflexes. He however doesn't know hat the future holds, where things are going to come from, or what is coming at him. His spider senses can be overloaded.\\

In this fight, though. Spiderman just doesn't have to jones to kill. I don't think he ever really does.

I know, I know,... In a "DEATH BATTLE" we are suppose to assume they want to kill each other. Most people assume that just means PowervPower. Most people however, don't take in characteristics into consideration. I think that is a HUGE misstep to take. Barring any familial entanglements. Spider.. Ahem, Peter Parker just doesn't have what it takes to win. Captain America does.

[Legato Endless]

In this fight, though. Spiderman just doesn't have to jones to kill. I don't think he ever really does.

I know, I know,... In a "DEATH BATTLE" we are suppose to assume they want to kill each other. Most people assume that just m.

Why would that matter? Spidey doesn't need to kill him to win. There's no Death Battle justification here. Peter spends every other week casually knocking out average humans to supers with far superior physical abilities, despite many of them trying to kill him. The only difference is Cap is shielded by the mystique of the merely 'peak human', which allows him to break physics whenever cinematically appropriate. Cap wins because he's Marvel Batman, except he compensates for lacking an improbable array of gadgets with even more ludicrous physical stunts.

It doesn't matter how fast you can think when your body moves a fraction of the speed at your opponent.

[Keltest]

Why would that matter? Spidey doesn't need to kill him to win. There's no Death Battle justification here. Peter spends every other week casually knocking out average humans to supers with far superior physical abilities, despite many of them trying to kill him. The only difference is Cap is shielded by the mystique of the merely 'peak human', which allows him to break physics whenever cinematically appropriate. Cap wins because he's Marvel Batman, except he compensates for lacking an improbable array of gadgets with even more ludicrous physical stunts.

It doesn't matter how fast you can think when your body moves a fraction of the speed at your opponent.

Don't forget, Spider Man has had his powers for what, a couple months? And he's a teenager. Cap is a full grown adult, which gives him a size and reach advantage, and is a trained soldier with years of experience, which means he knows how to fight effectively beyond just "hit something really hard".

[Gandariel]

I think it's pretty well represented in the movie.

Spiderman is physically better than Cap at pretty much everything, but Cap wins because he's more experienced.

Also, nobody was trying to kill anyone there.
Spiderman was probably not even using his full strength, either.

It's really not the point of the airport fight, but what the film *hints* is that Spiderman could easily beat Cap (and many others) given training.

[Clertar]

How did this turn into a Spiderman Vs. Captain America fight?


Did you miss the main action piece in the film? http://www.racocatala.cat/imatges/smileys/riure.gif

[ben-zayb]

Did you miss the main action piece in the film? http://www.racocatala.cat/imatges/smileys/riure.gif
Nah, Black Panther's action scenes were too awesome to miss.

[Cikomyr]

Nah, Black Panther's action scenes were too awesome to miss.

The girlfriend and I had long discussion about who was in the Right during Civil War (Cap or Iron Man).

We settled on Black Panther both winning and being in the right.

[Legato Endless]

Don't forget, Spider Man has had his powers for what, a couple months? And he's a teenager. Cap is a full grown adult, which gives him a size and reach advantage, and is a trained soldier with years of experience, which means he knows how to fight effectively beyond just "hit something really hard".

I meant in the comics where Cap consistently inexplicably wins. I fully agreed the Civil War fight is justified by Cap's far superior experience, in addition to being a lot more powerful than his comic incarnation.

[Kyberwulf]

Meh, it feels more like a death battle, because people keep bringing other variations on the characters. Comics, previous incarnations of the character's movies. If we are going solely off this Cinematic universe. I am saying Captain America wins hands down. Yeah Peter was holding back. So was Captain America, because.. he was fighting a Kid. The fact is, this incarnations of Parker has.. what... 7 minutes of ability showcasing? In a fight, EVERYONE was holding back on.

This Peter Parker has no real information to go on yet. Just fyi.

[lord_khaine]

Meh, it feels more like a death battle, because people keep bringing other variations on the characters. Comics, previous incarnations of the character's movies. If we are going solely off this Cinematic universe. I am saying Captain America wins hands down. Yeah Peter was holding back. So was Captain America, because.. he was fighting a Kid. The fact is, this incarnations of Parker has.. what... 7 minutes of ability showcasing? In a fight, EVERYONE was holding back on.

Well of course people are bringing up the other variants, its been a discussion of the comic fights for a little while now, mainly due to people in general seems to agree on how silly it is for Steve to win there despite the difference in physical power. Its honestly close to writers wanting us to believe Iron fist could take down Hulk because he is so much more skilled a fighter. (and yeah i know, wastly exaggerated)


I meant in the comics where Cap consistently inexplicably wins. I fully agreed the Civil War fight is justified by Cap's far superior experience, in addition to being a lot more powerful than his comic incarnation.

I honestly dont even mind this, i like that it seems like they have dropped that stupid bit about "peak human" and instead just made him plain superhumen.

[Clertar]

I guess Captain America is the only superhero that, rather than being depowered in the MCU adaptation, actually became more powerful http://www.racocatala.cat/imatges/smileys/pensar.gif

[lailahussain889]

Its my favorite movie series and always wait for its latest part.

[lord_khaine]

I guess Captain America is the only superhero that, rather than being depowered in the MCU adaptation, actually became more powerful

I would say that Black Panther also got a decent boost. But yeah, in general all the strongest ones were made weaker, and some of the weaker ones got a slight boost somewhere.

[Erys]

Spider-man is so strong, and Peter is such a nice guy, that he's basically always holding back his strength. Superior Spider-man was surprised to realize that in the previous Dr Octopus - Spidey fights, Spider-man was hitting significantly less hard than he could have.

Captain America can't do this (http://i.gyazo.com/30597d6745f153d8119fca6e47480897.gif), for example, but when it comes to harming other people Spider-man doesn't hit with that strength, especially if it's other good guys, he loses a big part of the advantage he'd have on Cap.

As mentioned above, MCU Captain America is way stronger than other incarnations.


https://youtu.be/-pnOXuRI0vM

[Dienekes]

I guess Captain America is the only superhero that, rather than being depowered in the MCU adaptation, actually became more powerful http://www.racocatala.cat/imatges/smileys/pensar.gif

I'm actually not so sure. Comicbook Cap has done some really, really crazy things like it was nothing. The comics just don't really play it up as anything special. It is just regarded as normal that the guy can literally tell where a bullet or rocket is coming and always has his shield in the way. It's just sort of shrugged off that he can beat up Iron Man, and can go toe to toe with the Hulk. The only explanation given is just "super soldier, plus, you know, he's CAPTAIN F****ING AMERICA!" and that's all the explanation that was needed.

[ben-zayb]

I would say that Black Panther also got a decent boost. But yeah, in general all the strongest ones were made weaker, and some of the weaker ones got a slight boost somewhere.

Maybe compared to the initial issues of BP, yes. But now, isn't it more of a badass and sleeker Iron Man + Batman suit?

[Kyberwulf]

I don't know if they got a boost, and the others got a nerf. I just think it's more of the fact, you get to see the comics in motion. When that happens, your expectations don't quite match up with seeing. I mean being told, and shown a picture of someone running really fast, or lifting something really heavy. It doesn't seem as impressive as it should be. Until you see Usaine Bolt bolt run. Or some powerman competitions.

Same with Other super heroes, such as Iron Man. You are told he is pretty fast when he lets his Iron Rip and he flies across the sky at super speeds. Then you actually see it, and.. he is this little spec flying so slowly High in the sky. The other side, is you see some hulk lift stuff, and it looks good. Yet, it just a computer generated thing. Not saying it isn't cool, just saying your suspension of disbelief isn't there.

[Clertar]

Maybe compared to the initial issues of BP, yes. But now, isn't it more of a badass and sleeker Iron Man + Batman suit?

Besides the suit, he's also the last of a century-long line of master king-warriors, and he was made the avatar of Death or something. The man can fight (https://lowbrowcomics.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/img_7471.png), in any case.

[lord_khaine]

Maybe compared to the initial issues of BP, yes. But now, isn't it more of a badass and sleeker Iron Man + Batman suit?

You dont think suddenly being bulletproof and having adamantine Vibranium claws is a buff?


I don't know if they got a boost, and the others got a nerf. I just think it's more of the fact, you get to see the comics in motion. When that happens, your expectations don't quite match up with seeing. I mean being told, and shown a picture of someone running really fast, or lifting something really heavy. It doesn't seem as impressive as it should be. Until you see Usaine Bolt bolt run. Or some powerman competitions.

Same with Other super heroes, such as Iron Man. You are told he is pretty fast when he lets his Iron Rip and he flies across the sky at super speeds. Then you actually see it, and.. he is this little spec flying so slowly High in the sky. The other side, is you see some hulk lift stuff, and it looks good. Yet, it just a computer generated thing. Not saying it isn't cool, just saying your suspension of disbelief isn't there.

No, if you actually look up the feats of the heavy weight members like Thor, Hulk and Iron Man then its pretty clear we are only getting a weaker version. Just to pick an example, then comic Thor can travel though both time and space with his hammer.
Meanwhile Cap is getting actual superhuman strenght, so a degree where he can actually fight against Iron Man, and the unpowered members are getting a lot more to do. I think its pretty clear that the gap between the Avenger members has intentially been lessend.

[GloatingSwine]

You dont think suddenly being bulletproof and having adamantine Vibranium claws is a buff?



A buff relative to what?

Those are just basic features of Black Panther. If anything he's not as powerful in Civil War as he should be, because he doesn't have any of his usual array of supernatural enhancements as part of his connection to the panther god yet.

[Anteros]

You dont think suddenly being bulletproof and having adamantine Vibranium claws is a buff?



No, if you actually look up the feats of the heavy weight members like Thor, Hulk and Iron Man then its pretty clear we are only getting a weaker version. Just to pick an example, then comic Thor can travel though both time and space with his hammer.
Meanwhile Cap is getting actual superhuman strenght, so a degree where he can actually fight against Iron Man, and the unpowered members are getting a lot more to do. I think its pretty clear that the gap between the Avenger members has intentially been lessend.

It's not as though Cap has never fought against Iron Man in the comics. Heck, that was the basis for the whole Civil War thing in the first place.

[lord_khaine]

A buff relative to what?

Those are just basic features of Black Panther. If anything he's not as powerful in Civil War as he should be, because he doesn't have any of his usual array of supernatural enhancements as part of his connection to the panther god yet.

Fair enough, seems like i have not managed to keep up with how much he has already been buffed in recent years, movie version does indeed seem like it were weaker than the comic version.


It's not as though Cap has never fought against Iron Man in the comics. Heck, that was the basis for the whole Civil War thing in the first place.

As i recall that fight were mainly ideological. In a straight up fight with the comic version he should be squashed like a pumpkin.
At least against the version that can casually lift a tank and survive a direct hit from a nuke.

[Legato Endless]

It's the nature of adaptions to change things to suit the story. The MCU can't be consistent with the comics by the simple virtue various incarnations of the characters diverge substantially. From personality changes to abilities. To take a different Marvel property, in the anime X-men Storm is visibly fatigued from casting a few lighting bolts. The 90s cartoon has to maintain control to not unleash the full extent of her powers and conjure storms capable of wrecking everything in sight.

For one example with nothing to do with motion, the MCU Destroyer is tougher than the average Asgardian but Thor obliterates it once he's sufficiently motivated. The comics incarnation is muchtougher, designed to fight Celestials and Thor's go to strategy against it is to maintain consciousness while desperately waiting for whatever spell or consciousness controlling it to wear off.

[Kyberwulf]

Not to mention that the MCU people haven't gotten any of their power up that came from what... 70 years of shinnanings? Of course they don't have much of their powers. As far as I know, they haven't really had anyone powerful enough to challenge them, as often in the comics. Any of them. They get powerful as they get experience in life or death Struggle. They find new and inventive ways to use what they have? I mean, the incredible hulk sat around for what 3 years in the MCU? Before he was found by Black Widow?

I mean take a look at the fight in Captain America. It was Iron Man vs Captain America AND Bucky. One has a Shield that is Invincible, the other has an ARM that is pretty durable. The fight starts. Iron Man pretty much ignores Captain America, so he can get Bucky. The WHOLE TIME... Cap is messing up Iron Man's suit. At no point did I think that Captain America was in any postion to one shot Iron Man. Heck I am sure if Iron Man turned and fought Captain America with his suit fully intact. I am sure he would have won. But He didn't. So Captain American was able to bring him down, and damage his suit enough. So when Iron Man decided Captain had to be taken out. He turned and almost won. But BUCKY came back and saved Captain America. Then the both beat on him, and Iron Man was STILL Able to turn the tide Mid-fight. And proceeded to kick Captain America in the stars. Captain America still almost loses. It wasn't a curb stomp.

The other thing, is that Captain America almost loses a lot. He always comes back not because of his amazing feats. He comes back because he almost always has Backup. That's why he wins, he uses a lot of team work.

[Dienekes]

As i recall that fight were mainly ideological. In a straight up fight with the comic version he should be squashed like a pumpkin.
At least against the version that can casually lift a tank and survive a direct hit from a nuke.

You'd think that. But in the comics Cap knocked a fully armored and bloodthirsty Tony (mind controlled for the record) out with his shield. Don't underestimate how amazingly and insanely powerful the "normal" heroes can be in comics.

[GloatingSwine]

It's the nature of adaptions to change things to suit the story. The MCU can't be consistent with the comics by the simple virtue various incarnations of the characters diverge substantially. From personality changes to abilities. To take a different Marvel property, in the anime X-men Storm is visibly fatigued from casting a few lighting bolts. The 90s cartoon has to maintain control to not unleash the full extent of her powers and conjure storms capable of wrecking everything in sight.


The other issue is that Black Panther hasn't otherwise been introduced. Fighty man in a techno suit is something that needs no introduction to the average MCU viewer at this point. Living avatar of the Panther god, maybe needs a bit more setup.

[lord_khaine]

You'd think that. But in the comics Cap knocked a fully armored and bloodthirsty Tony (mind controlled for the record) out with his shield. Don't underestimate how amazingly and insanely powerful the "normal" heroes can be in comics.

I think what i have underestimated is how bad the writers can be at maintaining internal consistence..

[tomandtish]

I think what i have underestimated is how bad the writers can be at maintaining internal consistence..

Given that they can't even agree on whether Cap is "The pinnacle of human perfection" (i.e. a physically perfect but not super human) or a super human, that isn't at all surprising. And that's before you get into the argument that they can't even agree on stats for a "physically perfect human" (since they've changed that measure from benching 800 pounds to 1500 pounds(!) and back again several times.

[Gandariel]

I don't really think there is a difference.

I mean, we don't really know the limits of the human body, so he could just be at the limit. Or maybe the guy who made the serum *thought* it would bring to pinnacle of human, but it made superhumans instead?
How do you even know what that thing does?

Ooh, or humans in Marvel universe are not the same as us?
Ironman is human and every single hit that knocks him through a wall or something should kill him.

I mean, there are so many answers, it could just be "all of them"