A Wizard That Actually Knows Things?

[Jarlhen]

How would this best be built? I'm quite keen on wizards specifically. Starting at level 9. However, like most classes they get very few skills and no expertise. So there are 3 options to my knowledge. Bard, Rogue, Knowledge Cleric. The best thing would be 4 levels lore bard. It gives so much. But it hurts your spell casting a lot. Going 3 isn't an option because I need the ASI. Essentially I either go 4 in a class or 1. Going 1 in rogue would mean I'm only 1 behind in spell casting, but lore bard gives you soooooo much versatility. Knowledge cleric is also a strong option, question is if it's as strong as the other two.

So in short, if you were to build a wizard that actually knew stuff, how would you go about doing it?

[Cybren]

How would this best be built? I'm quite keen on wizards specifically. Starting at level 9. However, like most classes they get very few skills and no expertise. So there are 3 options to my knowledge. Bard, Rogue, Knowledge Cleric. The best thing would be 4 levels lore bard. It gives so much. But it hurts your spell casting a lot. Going 3 isn't an option because I need the ASI. Essentially I either go 4 in a class or 1. Going 1 in rogue would mean I'm only 1 behind in spell casting, but lore bard gives you soooooo much versatility. Knowledge cleric is also a strong option, question is if it's as strong as the other two.

So in short, if you were to build a wizard that actually knew stuff, how would you go about doing it?

Human wizard with proficiency in the knowledge skills i want and a high int. Maybe linguist so i can learn a bunch of dead languages. Done.

[SharkForce]

sage background. few knowledge skills are now many. you don't know everything instantly, but you know a lot of things instantly and know how to find out just about everything else given time.

(also, just because you don't have expertise doesn't mean you're incompetent).

[JumboWheat01]

Also the Skilled feat can easily be worked into a Wizard. They are very SAD, so they can easily work in extra feats that you might not normally consider.

[Grod_The_Giant]

One level of Knowledge Cleric, unless you're facing severe stat limits. As many or more skills than the Rogue (depending on if you're starting or dipping), an equal amount of Expertise, and more spell options than the Bard. Including Guidance. And medium armor and shields, even, which is a nice bonus for the Wizard.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Also the Skilled feat can easily be worked into a Wizard. They are very SAD, so they can easily work in extra feats that you might not normally consider.

Yep. I'm playing a Skilled Half-Elf wizard now (sheet here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=691366); we got a free feat at level 1 on the condition that we lose our first ASI) and it's... well the Int checks have been pretty swingy, but the Cha skills have been super useful.

The big advantage with wizards is their ability to learn a bunch of obscure, situational spells, especially rituals, which work in tandem with your social/knowledge skills.

[RickAllison]

If you have a permissive DM, Knowledge Theurge is your best option. You get the Knowledge Cleric's Expertise without giving up wizard levels. Otherwise, I would say go into Knowledge Cleric (two extra skills and two Expertise), as it at least still gives you caster levels. If you want to be a true expert on everything, 1 Knowledge Cleric/Rogue 1 is enough to get every knowledge to Expertise while getting medium armor.

[BW022]

How would this best be built? ...
So in short, if you were to build a wizard that actually knew stuff, how would you go about doing it?

"Knowing things" includes a ton of ways...

Skills You can gain knowledge skills via. class, race, backgrounds, and feats (skilled). Obviously, a variant human with the sage background and skilled as a feat... would have all the knowledge type skills.

Intelligence Few bards or even knowledge clerics are going to max out intelligence. They need to focus on other stats cha/dex/con or wis/str/con. Most would be really lucky with a 14 and almost certainly won't be increasing it. Even if you don't have a skill you are likely +3 and quickly +4 or +5. You are probably as good unskilled as they are skilled (baring expertise).

Background Most DMs are going to set the DCs and/or give advantage on rolls based on your background. An elf is more likely to know elven history than say a dwarf, a human noble is more likely to know something about local politics than a outdoor druid. You can look at the campaign you are in, the DM, his style, etc. and make a good write up which would include a lot of what is likely to happen in the campaign. If you are playing in a dragon campaign... maybe being a dragon borne character with a big background write-up on working with your mentor to collect and catalogue recent stories of powerful dragons might be helpful.

Research Certain characters might have a better chance of researching certain things. Sage with the researcher trait is obvious, but so could various write-ups be.

In Game Research Nothing stops you from (in-game) actively researching topics or collecting information on things you think might come up. Visit a library and do research when you have a chance, buy books, carry certain books with you, examine unknown creatures you encounter, etc.

Contacts and Others Other people might know information. Sometimes just knowing who might know something is useful. Build relationships with NPCs -- donate to libraries, collect books, get a membership at the bard college, intelligent familiars, etc.

Languages Knowing a lot of languages might be helpful -- or magic such as tongues or telepathy. This may make gathering information easier. Comprehend languages is also a must for research.

Magic There are magical ways of gaining information. Divinations are obvious (below), but there are things such as guidance before rolls, having a familiar spying, being able to use magic to carry lots of books or move quickly to a library, summoning an intelligence creature you could ask questions to, charming people to get better information from them, etc. For example, a locate animals or plants to find a treant in the woods and then ask him what type of wood this bow is made of.

Divinations Divinations are an obvious way. Identify, detect magic, detect poison/disease, locate animals and plants, locate object, clairvoyance, arcane eye, contact other plane, etc. can all get information.

Player Knowledge, In Game Notes You don't wish to use out of game knowledge, but... you can maximize what the character has learned within the game. Take good notes, make a good journal, maybe bring a tablet, review your notes prior to each session, take time to roleplay specific actions (i.e. "My wizard makes a copy of the map" even if the DM doesn't have one), have materials (books, pens, and ink), take-up painting as a hoppy and draw pictures, etc.

Ask What Your Character Knows Likely the most powerful question you can ask a DM is "What does my character know about X?" (with X being something generic). Many players try relying on dice rolling or asking specific questions -- which the DM resolves with a dice roll. If you ask in-general what you know on X, then Y, and then Z... you can often get basic information and then either know what you need to research or setup a question with a much lower DC or possibly advantage. For example, if you find a sword with a strange marking and you need to find out who owns it... most players would ask "Do I recognize that marking?" (likely leading to a roll). Far better to ask "What do I know about swords metals?"... get some basic information... "What do I know about history of sword styles?"... get more... etc. And then ask the specific question with a qualifier "Since I know it is a crude steel and from 200 years ago, do I know anyone from more primitive areas in that time frame who might have made swords?" Even if you don't get the answer... at least you have narrowed the search.

[RulesJD]

You don't really need "Skills" when you have spells.

Want to know languages? Keep the Tongues spell memorized and have Comprehend Languages as a ritual.

Want to recall information via History check? Legend Lore spell.

etc.

[Falcon X]

If your DM allows (which he should, because it's "OP" stuff isn't even able to be worked on till after level 10), you could do the Theurge Wizard (https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA%20Non-Divine%20Faithful%20SFG.pdf) from Unearthed Arcana with access to Knowledge Domain.
Mix in a single level of Rogue for those nice skills and you have a very potent knowledge wizard with effective expertise in 4 skills.

[Godshoe]

I'm playing a Skilled Half-Elf wizard now (sheet here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=691366);
Sorry for offtop, but is it realy safe to play wizard with such low physical stats? I understand concept of glass mental-cannon, but anyway sound interesting to know how it works in practice.
Or your campaign more social than fighting?

[Toadkiller]

A level of knowledge cleric is nice. Can be combined with whatever background you want. You also get some more cantrip picks and having some cleric spell access has been handy for bless, healing word etc. Your wisdom won't let you cast them super well, but even 2 hp from healing word is helpful at times.

[RickAllison]

By the way, two levels of Knowledge Cleric really is the most knowledgable. The ability to have any tool proficiency or skill means that you can justifiably say "I think I read something about that before" and act on that knowledge. Also fantastic for combining with Fabricate.

[Toadkiller]

That is very true. I haven't been willing to delay spell progression yet but may do so yet.

[Ashrym]

A wizard doesn't need expertise to know things. High int and sage background is all it takes.

In game terms, a +2 bonus from proficiency and +3 from int as a first level wizard (+5 bonus) is the same as the smartest person possible in humanoid intelligence (+5 from 20 int) or almost the most learned average intelligence (+5 from a 13th level character with 10 int).

The typical highly educated and NPC is going to have a +3 bonus on the lower end (mid level 10 int) up to +9 on the higher end (getting into high levels <13th and the atypical 20 int). The typical learned and intelligent NPC will most likely have +2 or +3 from int and +3 or +4 from proficiency.

It looks like you aren't trying to know things so much as chase higher bonuses because they exist. The norm for knowledge is +0 from int and +0 from proficiency. Any wizard beats that by a lot. Bards and knowledge clerics don't invest in int. A rogue might depending on subclass but those lore skills aren't native to the rogue list so that's not typical of rogues either (usually a rogue has stealth, perception, investigation, and one other like thieves tools, persuasion, intimidation, sleight-of-hand, disguise kit, etc roguish stuff).

1 or 2 levels of knowledge cleric is the best bet for the numbers you want unless you want to play a lore bard instead. It looks more like a perception issue leading to extremism instead of knowing something, however.

[SharkForce]

If your DM allows (which he should, because it's "OP" stuff isn't even able to be worked on till after level 10), you could do the Theurge Wizard (https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA%20Non-Divine%20Faithful%20SFG.pdf) from Unearthed Arcana with access to Knowledge Domain.
Mix in a single level of Rogue for those nice skills and you have a very potent knowledge wizard with effective expertise in 4 skills.

the OP stuff in theurge starts becoming available well before level 10. the instant you get +2 to your save DCs, you've already gained one of the most powerful abilities in the game, and that comes at a very early level. i will grant that it doesn't become truly OP until higher levels, but as early as level 9 you can have the save DC a typical wizard won't see until level 17 with that ridiculous cheesy ability.

[djreynolds]

How many levels is the campaign, because 18 wizard is awesome. Its too good to pass up using the shield spell freely every round or misty step. And big dip will prevent this. Cleric knowledge will give you medium armor proficiency, and some cleric spells you lack, good dip and expertise in 2 skills. That's your choice, but to benefit from medium armor you will need a 14 in dex, and 13 in wisdom.

[Hrugner]

One level of mystic with the Mind Vault discipline should cover all your skill based needs.

[djreynolds]

Ask the DM if you just take the guidance cantrip. Aside from a bard, who happens to max intelligence, your wizard probably has the highest arcana and history check, at least +11.

Mystic seems an appropriate choice.

[Jarlhen]

So many great replies, thanks a lot guys and gals.

[Jarlhen]

the OP stuff in theurge starts becoming available well before level 10. the instant you get +2 to your save DCs, you've already gained one of the most powerful abilities in the game, and that comes at a very early level. i will grant that it doesn't become truly OP until higher levels, but as early as level 9 you can have the save DC a typical wizard won't see until level 17 with that ridiculous cheesy ability.

How exactly does it become OP though? At level 10 a knowledge wiyard can cast a special version of read thoughts/suggestion. At 14 they can find out about stuff that happened in a diviniation type of way. Nothing that seems particularly OP. Is it some spell combo I'm not thinking of?

[Falcon X]

How exactly does it become OP though? At level 10 a knowledge wiyard can cast a special version of read thoughts/suggestion. At 14 they can find out about stuff that happened in a diviniation type of way. Nothing that seems particularly OP. Is it some spell combo I'm not thinking of?
It's the ability to scribe ANY cleric spell into your spell book. Makes your versatility skyrocket. But you can only get those cleric spells as your two picks each level, and you must get ALL of your domain spells first, so you can't start branching out till Level 10, assuming you've devoted half your picks to domain spells.
Also, if your DM is one not to let you find many spells out in the world, like mine, every cleric spell will take away from a wizard spell. It's not very OP if you have a low-magic DM.

The other side is a once per short rest ability to increase a single save DC by 2.
Which I don't get. I mean, it's useful, but it's still only giving the enemy 10% of a harder time once per rest.

I maintain that it isn't OP till higher levels where wizard is already OP anyway.

[Naanomi]

I second the idea of 1-2 levels in Knowledge Cleric plus the sage or cloistered scholar background covers most of your need for Brainyness if you feel you are lacking it; and just be a Lore Bard if you really need to be 'the professor'

[RickAllison]

It's the ability to scribe ANY cleric spell into your spell book. Makes your versatility skyrocket. But you can only get those cleric spells as your two picks each level, and you must get ALL of your domain spells first, so you can't start branching out till Level 10, assuming you've devoted half your picks to domain spells.
Also, if your DM is one not to let you find many spells out in the world, like mine, every cleric spell will take away from a wizard spell. It's not very OP if you have a low-magic DM.

The other side is a once per short rest ability to increase a single save DC by 2.
Which I don't get. I mean, it's useful, but it's still only giving the enemy 10% of a harder time once per rest.

I maintain that it isn't OP till higher levels where wizard is already OP anyway.

A notable aspect of that ability, however, is that at higher levels it boosts you to DC 20 and 21. This becomes significant for many abilities when you realize that at those DCs, someone without proficiency in a save and either 8 or 10 in the ability will auto-fail. With thoughtful selection of saving throws spells, you can utterly lock down an enemy with no hope of success. It is also for the spell itself, so spells that offer multiple saves (Dominate Monster, Hold Person, etc.) are still affected.

This means that Mass Suggestion you lobbed into a crowd of peasants will likely put all of them under your sway, where normally some wouldn't be affected. You could Dominate another creature with low Wisdom (harder to do) and manipulate it for so much.

Also, Feeblemind. Int saves are hard enough for most creatures, so adding on +2 DC just makes it brutal. Do note that it is best to erode a powerful creature's Legendary Resistance uses before attempting such action, as those auto-saves are just as likely to succeed as normal.

[SharkForce]

How exactly does it become OP though? At level 10 a knowledge wiyard can cast a special version of read thoughts/suggestion. At 14 they can find out about stuff that happened in a diviniation type of way. Nothing that seems particularly OP. Is it some spell combo I'm not thinking of?

i had a super long rant. instead, i'll give the short(er) version:

it isn't about knowledge theurge specifically (there's great synergy between knowledge cleric and wizard, but that isn't the problem).

pretty much every other ability to make saves harder for enemies is limited. bane costs a spell slot and an action and your concentration plus allows a save; heighten costs a metamagic selection, 3 sorcerer points (very expensive for a metamagic) and works on only a single enemy for a single save, and cannot make a save impossible to succeed on unless it was already so. bestow curse costs a spell slot, an action, and potentially your concentration (but possibly not if you use a level 5 slot) and allows a save. bend luck costs 2 sorcery points, your reaction, and is again single target for a single save. portent is single target, single save, and limited to twice per day (3 at very high levels). additionally, those sorcerer abilities essentially take up a major part of the sorcerer class "power budget", leaving the sorcerer with relatively little else it can do.

channel arcana is as many targets as you can get, for as many saves as they have to make. a sorcerer can heighten a hold person spell and make one target really likely to fail once at a fairly high cost. a theurge can do that for every target for every save for a much lower cost.

and, as noted, once your DC gets high enough, a lot of creatures can't make their save. it's part of bounded accuracy, which was a core design principle applied to the monsters in 5e... some monsters can start to have problems as early as DC 17, for example. channel arcana can put that in reach at level 5, and enemies that you should be fighting in groups, with support, by the time you start worrying about those kinds of save DCs become extremely vulnerable to single target CC, turning a fight that should be extremely challenging for a level 5 group into a cakewalk.

the rest of theurge probably doesn't break the game horribly. it's probably too powerful, and if you have a cleric in the same party they'll probably spend a lot of time wondering why they didn't go theurge instead because the theurge has more than enough picks to steal the most interesting cleric spells, but you won't destroy bounded accuracy, and you won't have an ability that is miles ahead of anything else even remotely similar.

[Douche]

Why do you want to know things? In my experience, the DM will share what info you need to know. They're not going to discard their super-interesting plot point just because you rolled low on the History check to inspect their super-important plot device.

Aside from that, if you want the DM to describe the history of a country or something like that to you, just ask (in or out of character)... I often ask my DM really irrelevant questions, like "What does the architecture look like?" or "when was the last time this nation was at war?" because I want to give them the opportunity to explain the world to the group, without having to hamfist it somehow. If I'm asking, then they have the opportunity to show off their lore & stuff. They've never refused, but if they did then... what? They don't get to elaborate on their worldbuilding? Good job, dude. You sure showed me!

Honestly, maybe it's just me, but I can't remember EVER failing a history check. Even when I rolled, like, an 8. The DM will tell you something, because if they asked for a history check in the first place it means they wanted to tell you something, & the check is just a formality.

You could make an argument for being able to identify monsters & stuff like that, to know their weaknesses & such... but most tough & iconic enemies have really obvious weaknesses. Like, it's impossible to avoid metagaming when you're fighting a vampire. Everyone knows they don't like sunlight. Something that's so ingrained in pop culture like that, you can't even call it metagaming. If it's that obvious IRL that vampires are weak to sunlight, then it should be common knowledge in the universe as well.



Anyway, aside from that, I'd say that those semi-useless feats like Keen Mind & Observant would be better for characterizing a hyper-intelligent character, rather than multi-classing into a bard or rogue for more skills.

[Jarlhen]

Why do you want to know things? In my experience, the DM will share what info you need to know. They're not going to discard their super-interesting plot point just because you rolled low on the History check to inspect their super-important plot device.

Aside from that, if you want the DM to describe the history of a country or something like that to you, just ask (in or out of character)... I often ask my DM really irrelevant questions, like "What does the architecture look like?" or "when was the last time this nation was at war?" because I want to give them the opportunity to explain the world to the group, without having to hamfist it somehow. If I'm asking, then they have the opportunity to show off their lore & stuff. They've never refused, but if they did then... what? They don't get to elaborate on their worldbuilding? Good job, dude. You sure showed me!

Honestly, maybe it's just me, but I can't remember EVER failing a history check. Even when I rolled, like, an 8. The DM will tell you something, because if they asked for a history check in the first place it means they wanted to tell you something, & the check is just a formality.

You could make an argument for being able to identify monsters & stuff like that, to know their weaknesses & such... but most tough & iconic enemies have really obvious weaknesses. Like, it's impossible to avoid metagaming when you're fighting a vampire. Everyone knows they don't like sunlight. Something that's so ingrained in pop culture like that, you can't even call it metagaming. If it's that obvious IRL that vampires are weak to sunlight, then it should be common knowledge in the universe as well.



Anyway, aside from that, I'd say that those semi-useless feats like Keen Mind & Observant would be better for characterizing a hyper-intelligent character, rather than multi-classing into a bard or rogue for more skills.

In my experience, in 20 years, dozens of groups, hundreds of players, I've never experience any of what you're describing. I've never played in a group, in any RPG, where skills didn't matter. While I appreciate your input you're essentially going out of your way to not answer the question and instead offer the opposite of a constructive post. I mean it must be pretty obvious since I asked that it matters, no? I genuinely am not trying to be rude, I'm just not sure what your point is.

To the rest I say thank you, you've given me lots of good options here and I feel it's been a very constructive thread!

[Douche]

In my experience, in 20 years, dozens of groups, hundreds of players, I've never experience any of what you're describing. I've never played in a group, in any RPG, where skills didn't matter. While I appreciate your input you're essentially going out of your way to not answer the question and instead offer the opposite of a constructive post. I mean it must be pretty obvious since I asked that it matters, no? I genuinely am not trying to be rude, I'm just not sure what your point is.

To the rest I say thank you, you've given me lots of good options here and I feel it's been a very constructive thread!

I'm just not clear on what you want. The topic title doesn't really match up with the body of the post. One sounds like you want a character that is really intelligent & knows lots of history & lore. That can be accomplished through role playing, but yeah skills would help. The other implies that you want a Jack of All Trades/skill monkey wizard.

All I was trying to say is that, while your build is important too, my advice is to just try & be observant and ask the DM to elaborate on his world building. You can then utilize that information in your dealings with NPCs

[mephnick]

Honestly, maybe it's just me, but I can't remember EVER failing a history check. Even when I rolled, like, an 8. The DM will tell you something, because if they asked for a history check in the first place it means they wanted to tell you something, & the check is just a formality.

This is a bad way to run the game, but I know a lot of DM's that do it. Knowledge skills aren't there to prompt DM exposition and world building, they exist to reward or punish your character's knowledge of the setting. They exist for the same reason as every other skill check: to be rolled when there's a cost to failure.

Example of the wrong way:

DM: "A troop of riders is coming over the hill at a gallop, their standard of a silver wolf flapping in the breeze."
Player 1: "I study the banner to see if I recognize it."
DM: "Roll History"
Player 1: "Damn, 8."
DM: "Well...damn was hoping he'd make that...it is the Silver Legion! A ruthless religious order from Jerktown who cut down any who are in their way! Let me tell you how badass they are because they're my pet NPCs!"
Player: "Oh damn, we better hide."


Example of the right way:

DM: "A troop of riders is coming over the hill at a gallop, their standard of a silver wolf flapping in the breeze."
Player 1: "I study the banner to see if I recognize it."
DM: "Roll History"
Player 1: "Damn, 8."
DM: "You do not recognize the banner."
Player: "Well, we should ride out and see what's up"
*The Silver Legion educates the players on how badass they are after forcing them to surrender.*

There. You get the information and world-building, but the party suffers a setback for failing a skill check.

[Naanomi]

If I wanted to build the 'guy that knows stuff', in the mechanical/skills sense, I wouldn't choose a Wizard to start with (in general). It would look something like... (not horribly optimized except as a lore factory, but playable and fun I think)

Half-Elf/Sage
Knowledge Cleric 1/Lore Bard 19
9/14/12/14/13/16
ASI: +2 CHA, +2 CHA, +2 INT, +2 INT, +2 INT
Expertise: History, Arcana, Nature, Religion, Investigation, (Perception, Persuasion, or Performance)
Skills: History, Arcana, Religion, Insight, Investigation, Nature, Perception, Persuasion, Performance, Stealth, Acrobatics, Survival
Tools: Calligrapher's Tools (Use with Fabricate to make detailed books about your studies)
Languages: Common, Elven, Dwarven, Halfling, Gnome, Undercommon (use spells to translate more obscure stuff)
Spells: Big focus on Divination, including poaching divinations spells with Bard free choices