Apocalypse V.S Darth Sidious (Film versions for both)

[ArlEammon]

Both are incredibly smart, and powerful people in their universe. Palpatine's light saber might prevent him from healing from his wounds with his regeneration powers, but Apocalyps'es telekinetic and psychic powers are perhaps more powerful than Palpatine's. Apocalypse seems to manifest his mutant powers in a wide variety of ways that are beyond any mutant's in the film franchise other than the Phoenix. Yet it took the combined powers of Storm, Magneto, Psyclops and Professor X to distract him until the Phoenix was unleashed. Palpatine out right put to shame Jedi Master duelists in his battle with Mace Windu with the light saber. His power over the Dark Side is immense, and he is capable of immense psychic power in order to cloak his identity from other psychics. "Psychics" In this case being Jedi. His ability was so strong he could mask his identity from the entire Jedi Order. Sidious is a powerful Force user and his ability to use the Force allows him to be hideously powerful in melee, even though Windu is more powerful as a duelist, Sidious is more than powerful enough to take on numerous threats due to his channeling of the Dark Side, allowing him to overwhelm immensely competent light saber duelists in just a few strokes. His telekinetic power is also immense, able to throw tons of metal through the air like base balls at his targets.

Who wins?

[HolyDraconus]

It took an in universe planet buster to drop the big A. Sideous loses. Stomp.

[druid91]

It took an in universe planet buster to drop the big A. Sideous loses. Stomp.

You mean a handful of men with knives and some hammers right?

Because that's what took him down at the start of the movie, could have been a permanent take-down were it not for the one chick with the force fields.

The only reason the X-men and company found it so hard was because they were stupid and had to be flashy and not blindside the dude. Quicksilver and Storm had the right idea, but everyone else wanted to show off.

[HolyDraconus]

You mean a handful of men with knives and some hammers right?

Because that's what took him down at the start of the movie, could have been a permanent take-down were it not for the one chick with the force fields.

The only reason the X-men and company found it so hard was because they were stupid and had to be flashy and not blindside the dude. Quicksilver and Storm had the right idea, but everyone else wanted to show off.
Considering those same people failed to kill him and only managed that plan when he was doing his I guess annual body change technique? Still not seeing how it isn't a Stomp. The only things I'm seeing that could be a problem is the Saber. Everything else he's dealt with before. Hell, he made Magneto into a bigger threat

[druid91]

Considering those same people failed to kill him and only managed that plan when he was doing his I guess annual body change technique? Still not seeing how it isn't a Stomp. The only things I'm seeing that could be a problem is the Saber. Everything else he's dealt with before. Hell, he made Magneto into a bigger threat

They only barely managed to fail to kill him. Mind you he had all four of his horsemen alive and present in the room as the muggles staged their coup, and even though they failed to kill him, they managed to destroy his empire and imprison him underground for what, 90% of recorded history? That is a long time.

And there were what. Twenty of them? Thirty?

Palpatine is one of the most powerful telepaths in the starwars universe. It's like fighting a professor X who has no morals and starts OFF boosted without requiring Cerebro OR Apocalypse.

He clouded the future prediction capabilities of the ENTIRE jedi order. At once. Mind you, they're well known for their future predicting powers.

[ArlEammon]

They only barely managed to fail to kill him. Mind you he had all four of his horsemen alive and present in the room as the muggles staged their coup, and even though they failed to kill him, they managed to destroy his empire and imprison him underground for what, 90% of recorded history? That is a long time.

And there were what. Twenty of them? Thirty?

Palpatine is one of the most powerful telepaths in the starwars universe. It's like fighting a professor X who has no morals and starts OFF boosted without requiring Cerebro OR Apocalypse.

He clouded the future prediction capabilities of the ENTIRE jedi order. At once. Mind you, they're well known for their future predicting powers.

Apocalypse was arrogant. Which is the only reason he didn't flatten everybody.

[The Glyphstone]

That doesn't necessarily extend to generally being a godly telepath, though. Jedi techniques tend to be very specialized, being great at one thing doesn't necessarily make you great any anything else, or even good at it. Palpatine was superb at one specific technique that indirectly crippled the Jedi by blocking a source of information they took for granted, and even then his blocking was only on the long-term scale (as evidenced by how all the Jedi could still fight using their short-term combat precognition, if they realized a threat existed). He certainly wasn't very good at Mind Tricks, otherwise he could have turned all that power on the Jedi who went to arrest him and wiped their memories of ever needing to do so.

Palpatine is a old man whose greatest strengths are in manipulation and maneuvering. Also, he can shoot lightning from his fingertips. Unless he also catches Apocalypse at the nadir of his power cycle, I don't think he can win this.

[Malistrae]

That doesn't necessarily extend to generally being a godly telepath, though. Jedi techniques tend to be very specialized, being great at one thing doesn't necessarily make you great any anything else, or even good at it. Palpatine was superb at one specific technique that indirectly crippled the Jedi by blocking a source of information they took for granted, and even then his blocking was only on the long-term scale (as evidenced by how all the Jedi could still fight using their short-term combat precognition, if they realized a threat existed). He certainly wasn't very good at Mind Tricks, otherwise he could have turned all that power on the Jedi who went to arrest him and wiped their memories of ever needing to do so.

Palpatine is a old man whose greatest strengths are in manipulation and maneuvering. Also, he can shoot lightning from his fingertips. Unless he also catches Apocalypse at the nadir of his power cycle, I don't think he can win this.
This is the problem with using Films-only Sidious, since he doesn't fight a lot in the movies (he fights twice in the trilogies (in ROTS to be precise), since it's not a real fight in ROTJ). It would be much more logical to use Canon!Sidious (the EU/Legends one is absurd and shouldn't be touched), who is one-and-the-same with the Film one due to Disney's decision (and is not an alternate universe version of himself like Film!Apocalypse). And in the canon Lords of the Sith novel, he demonstrates some pretty strong Mind Trick skills on a Twi'lek girl (brainwashing muggles and force-users are very different). In the same book, he repeatedly displays strong telekinetic powers, foresight and some impressive lightning and saber-swinging (the core premise of the book being that Vader and Sidious end up in the wilderness of Ryloth, cut off from Imperial support, with insurgents hot on their heels). In the Clone Wars series, he demonstrates some very impressive dueling skills (against Maul and his brother), long-range Force Choke (on Dooku) and the ability to use ancient techniques of the Dark Side to assault his enemies (Yoda) from afar with mirages. In the canon Son of Dathomir comic series that followed up Maul's fate post the Clone Wars series, he breaks through Mother Talzin's sorcerous barrier.

Yes, Films-only Sidious is stomped. Canon!Sidious is still likely defeated, but he has an actual chance.

[Talakeal]

If we use EU Palpatine wouldn't we also have to use comic book Apocalypse?

[Dragonexx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

[Traab]

If we use EU Palpatine wouldn't we also have to use comic book Apocalypse?

Thats a good point, I mean, isnt comic apocalypse basically unbeatable? I know in the cartoon series I watched way back in the day it was more about foiling his plans than about kicking his butt. He was able to take full force optic blasts from cyclops, im pretty sure he was mostly immune to wolverines claws.

Here is what I got from the wiki,
Apocalypse is an ancient mutant born with a variety of superhuman abilities who further augmented himself after merging with Celestial technology. He is an immortal being,[75] with total control over the molecules of his body, enabling him to alter his form as it suits him,[76] such as allowing his body to become extremely malleable and flexible or change his size, enhance his physical abilities, transform his limbs into weapons, wings, or jets, regenerate from fatal injuries, adapt his body to apparently any disease or hostile environment, as well as give himself virtually any superhuman power.[77] He is also able to project and absorb energy, Apocalypse is also capable of technopathy, able to directly interface with the various technologies he has at his disposal. Thanks to the aid of his mutant abilities, special "regeneration" chambers,[78] and changing bodies, Apocalypse has further enhanced his abilities.

Aside from his superhuman powers, Apocalypse is extraordinarily intelligent[81] and a scientific genius with knowledge in various areas of science and technology including physics, engineering, genetics, and biology, all of which are more advanced than conventional science.[82] Apocalypse has knowledge of Celestial technology that he uses for his own applications, such as altering mutants or humans. Apocalypse is also a skilled demagogue and a master strategist

Yeah im pretty sure apocalypse is winning in a stomp if you take comic version. Especially since he has regularly fought psychics and telekinetics. Palpatines force powers wouldnt impress him, his ability to absorb energy means its likely a lightsaber would do much good, and even if that doesnt work, he can make himself immeasurably tougher through his cellular manipulation abilities. Lightning is CERTAINLY a no sell.

[Malistrae]

If we use EU Palpatine wouldn't we also have to use comic book Apocalypse?
I explicitly said we shouldn't use EU Palpatine.
In the current Disney system, there are two Palpatines:
1. Canon!Palpatine (Films, Clone Wars, Rebels + whatever canon books/comics were released post-Disney takeover)
2. EU/Legends!Palpatine (all the old, decanonised EU material)
Talking about Films only Palpatine is redundant, because he doesn't exist. There is only canon and EU Palpatine. All material done under Disney supervision conforms to this dual system. The old tier-based canonicity system is no longer in use, and thus, for example, the Clone Wars and the films have the same canonicity.
Obviously, if we want to use Comic!Apocalypse, you have to allow EU!Palpatine. Comic!Apocalyspe is likely stronger, but EU!Palpatine does have some absurd feats under his belt (draining the life from entire planets, using Force Storms to destroy fleets of space ships, etc.).

[Kyberwulf]

um, no. Film version of Palpatine is different from Cannon Palpatine. There is a HUGE power discrepancy in those. If you take stuff out of Cannon Palpatine, then it's only fair to take stuff out of Cannon Apocalypse. There is a HUGE discrepancy overall between film cannon, and the cannon of all of Star Wars. Always has been.

What is up with people overestimating Vader and Palpatine's strength? Or rather the power of the force. I feel like most people are like Anakin at the dinner table, they have this highly over romanticized view of the Force. I am Qui Gonn looking sad, and saying "only if that where true."The power of the force, in the movies, isn't nearly as omnipotent and godlike as people think. Take Palpatine, he didn't win because the force showed him the future in pristine 400k vision, and given him mind reading abilities to Xavier's extent. He won because he was playing a game of chess with people who didn't even know they where playing, let alone sitting at the table. As soon as people where made aware of his planning, he started losing more and more ground, until he squeaked out a win. Let's be honest to, he won because during the prequels, it was pretty much already a given that he would win. That Anakin would fall to the dark side. That the Council would lose, and he would turn the Republic into an empire.

Granted the Force is a Powerful ally to have indeed. However, it hasn't been put up against anything that isn't Forced-based. There hasn't really been a being that is an Omega level being in the force. That isn't what it's meant to be.

[Thinker]

In the realm of super powers, the Force is pretty ****. It's even worse if you stick to movies only. That's not a knock on Star Wars - they're still good stories.

[druid91]

How does Apocalypse function?

He chooses four horsemen, boosts their powers, and then has them do most of the fighting for him. Does he do a certain amount of fighting for himself? Certainly! but generally he doesn't bother unless he has to.

Palpatine can predict the future, is familiar with star-wars style technology, and most importantly... He doesn't have to be present to kill someone. He can build a droid, or many droids, and have it act as spotter while he chokes the four horsemen to death from his penthouse in Tahiti.

Worst of all, thanks to his future prediction capabilities, he could do this before apocalypse gets to his potential horsemen eliminating the possibility of apocalypse tracking him via the droid. Given that in the films, Apocalypse literally just grabs the first four mutants he meets.... And doesn't seem to have much, if anything of a plan at all...

From there, he can use his manipulation skills to convince the nations of the world to saturation bomb him with nuclear weapons. There has to be a reason he disarmed them, them being able to hurt him is the most likely answer.

The point isn't that Apocalypse isn't stronger in a face to face fight.

The point is that Palpatine will never give him one, and is fully capable of winning indirectly. And given he's outright stated in the movies to be functionally immortal/ageless thanks to Darth Plagis, he has all the time in the world to wear apocalypse down.

[Kyberwulf]

Palpatine can't predict the future, he sees the future. That is a difference. He can't control the outcome. There are multiple instances where his predictions haven't come true. or he was grand standing when he says "It is as I have forseen" The most he can do, is see one of many outcomes, and try influence things.

[druid91]

Palpatine can't predict the future, he sees the future. That is a difference. He can't control the outcome. There are multiple instances where his predictions haven't come true. or he was grand standing when he says "It is as I have forseen" The most he can do, is see one of many outcomes, and try influence things.

Yes, always in motion is the future.... but Apocalypse isn't exactly complex in his planning.

[ArlEammon]

um, no. Film version of Palpatine is different from Cannon Palpatine. There is a HUGE power discrepancy in those. If you take stuff out of Cannon Palpatine, then it's only fair to take stuff out of Cannon Apocalypse. There is a HUGE discrepancy overall between film cannon, and the cannon of all of Star Wars. Always has been.

What is up with people overestimating Vader and Palpatine's strength? Or rather the power of the force. I feel like most people are like Anakin at the dinner table, they have this highly over romanticized view of the Force. I am Qui Gonn looking sad, and saying "only if that where true."The power of the force, in the movies, isn't nearly as omnipotent and godlike as people think. Take Palpatine, he didn't win because the force showed him the future in pristine 400k vision, and given him mind reading abilities to Xavier's extent. He won because he was playing a game of chess with people who didn't even know they where playing, let alone sitting at the table. As soon as people where made aware of his planning, he started losing more and more ground, until he squeaked out a win. Let's be honest to, he won because during the prequels, it was pretty much already a given that he would win. That Anakin would fall to the dark side. That the Council would lose, and he would turn the Republic into an empire.

Granted the Force is a Powerful ally to have indeed. However, it hasn't been put up against anything that isn't Forced-based. There hasn't really been a being that is an Omega level being in the force. That isn't what it's meant to be.


In the realm of super powers, the Force is pretty ****. It's even worse if you stick to movies only. That's not a knock on Star Wars - they're still good stories.

Google Abeloth and see how wrong both of you are. Abeloth makes Palpatine look like Homer Simpson trying to learn spells at Hogwarts.

[Frozen_Feet]

One on one, Palpatine loses. In the films, he is a mid-level fencer and low-level telekinetic with ability to shoot lightning. Apocalypse can destroy a city with a wave of his hand.

But Palpatine is the leader of a galaxy-wide Empire with FTL ships capable of orbital bombardment. Apocalypse is a lone guy on some backwater planet. On a personal level, Apocalypse is god-like; next to a Star Destroyer (let alone a Death Star), not so much.

However, Apocalypse has a significant wildcard up his sleeve: he can apparently learn the sum total of a whole planet's knowledge by listening to radio. Point is: bronze age guys could win Apocalypse with bronze age tools because Apocalypse himself was napping and his servants didn't have anything notably better. The instant Apocalypse came to the modern world, he received a massive power-up. Exposure to Star Wars technology would be an even bigger power up.

This said, Apocalypse still starts with one planet. He would have a long way to go to catch up with Palpatine.

[Malistrae]

um, no. Film version of Palpatine is different from Cannon Palpatine. There is a HUGE power discrepancy in those. If you take stuff out of Cannon Palpatine, then it's only fair to take stuff out of Cannon Apocalypse. There is a HUGE discrepancy overall between film cannon, and the cannon of all of Star Wars. Always has been.

What is up with people overestimating Vader and Palpatine's strength? Or rather the power of the force. I feel like most people are like Anakin at the dinner table, they have this highly over romanticized view of the Force. I am Qui Gonn looking sad, and saying "only if that where true."The power of the force, in the movies, isn't nearly as omnipotent and godlike as people think. Take Palpatine, he didn't win because the force showed him the future in pristine 400k vision, and given him mind reading abilities to Xavier's extent. He won because he was playing a game of chess with people who didn't even know they where playing, let alone sitting at the table. As soon as people where made aware of his planning, he started losing more and more ground, until he squeaked out a win. Let's be honest to, he won because during the prequels, it was pretty much already a given that he would win. That Anakin would fall to the dark side. That the Council would lose, and he would turn the Republic into an empire.

Granted the Force is a Powerful ally to have indeed. However, it hasn't been put up against anything that isn't Forced-based. There hasn't really been a being that is an Omega level being in the force. That isn't what it's meant to be.
I have to stress this: you were right. For decades, there was a clear distinction between the film and Expanded Universe versions of characters, due to the discrepancies you already mentioned. However, after Disney took over Star Wars, they decided to use a simple, binary approach: the Films and the Clone Wars series are canon, everything else is just "Legends". So, the absurdly powerful Palpatine you mentioned (who appears in Dark Empires if I am correct) is no longer part of the canon. He has been excised from it, along with decades of EU materials. Furthermore, all new supplementary materials (and even the new films) are painstakingly monitored and directed by Disney in order to not invalidate earlier canon materials, or create discrepancies with the films. For example, the new films treat everything in Clone Wars, Rebels or the various new novels as real events that actually happened in the way we were shown. There is no longer a Film/EU divide, it has been blurred together into a new Canon/Legends divide.

Thus, Canon!Palpatine is a consistent character. His power level doesn't vary whether he appears in Films, series, comics or novels. There is no discrepancy. The entire reason Disney dumped 99% of the old EU was to resolve such problems.

By comparison, Apocalypse has two versions: Film!Apocalypse and Comics!Apocalypse. There is no "Canon!Apocalypse" because there is no shared universe between the films and the comics. Thus using "Film!Palpatine" overly gimps him, because that iteration of him no longer even exists from a dogmatic standpoint. There is only Canon!Palpatine and Legends!Palpatine.

Of course, Canon!Palpatine still gets stomped by Film!Apocalypse. It just takes Apocalypse more time to defeat him.


Google Abeloth and see how wrong both of you are. Abeloth makes Palpatine look like Homer Simpson trying to learn spells at Hogwarts.
Unfortunately, Abeloth is Legends now, so she doesn't exist in the Canon SW Universe (which the movies belong to). However, we do have the Son/Father/Daughter triad, since they are canon.

[ArlEammon]

I have to stress this: you were right. For decades, there was a clear distinction between the film and Expanded Universe versions of characters, due to the discrepancies you already mentioned. However, after Disney took over Star Wars, they decided to use a simple, binary approach: the Films and the Clone Wars series are canon, everything else is just "Legends". So, the absurdly powerful Palpatine you mentioned (who appears in Dark Empires if I am correct) is no longer part of the canon. He has been excised from it, along with decades of EU materials. Furthermore, all new supplementary materials (and even the new films) are painstakingly monitored and directed by Disney in order to not invalidate earlier canon materials, or create discrepancies with the films. For example, the new films treat everything in Clone Wars, Rebels or the various new novels as real events that actually happened in the way we were shown. There is no longer a Film/EU divide, it has been blurred together into a new Canon/Legends divide.

Thus, Canon!Palpatine is a consistent character. His power level doesn't vary whether he appears in Films, series, comics or novels. There is no discrepancy. The entire reason Disney dumped 99% of the old EU was to resolve such problems.

By comparison, Apocalypse has two versions: Film!Apocalypse and Comics!Apocalypse. There is no "Canon!Apocalypse" because there is no shared universe between the films and the comics. Thus using "Film!Palpatine" overly gimps him, because that iteration of him no longer even exists from a dogmatic standpoint. There is only Canon!Palpatine and Legends!Palpatine.

Of course, Canon!Palpatine still gets stomped by Film!Apocalypse. It just takes Apocalypse more time to defeat him.


Unfortunately, Abeloth is Legends now, so she doesn't exist in the Canon SW Universe (which the movies belong to). However, we do have the Son/Father/Daughter triad, since they are canon.

Even with only the Father/Son/Daughter Triad, these are still Force Entities superior to Emperor Palpatine.

[Malistrae]

Even with only the Father/Son/Daughter Triad, these are still Force Entities superior to Emperor Palpatine.
Of course, I think the Force Priestesses and the Bendu were also clearly stronger than Palpatine. Especially since the former managed to subvert Palpatine's ritual in order to give Yoda a spiritual journey of sorts.
I would say that in the canon universe, Palpatine is the strongest mortal Force-user during his lifetime, but there are occult beings who are more powerful in the Force than him.

[Kyberwulf]

Except there is a CLEAR distinction between the movie Star Wars, and the rest of the Canon. Go watch the fights from the movies, then compare them to the cartoons. There is a very clear distinction between the way Palpatine and Count Dooku fight.

[The Glyphstone]

The movies are going to be more limited simply on the fact that they are restricted by the physical prowess of the actor (or their stunt double).

[Malistrae]

Except there is a CLEAR distinction between the movie Star Wars, and the rest of the Canon. Go watch the fights from the movies, then compare them to the cartoons. There is a very clear distinction between the way Palpatine and Count Dooku fight.

The movies are going to be more limited simply on the fact that they are restricted by the physical prowess of the actor (or their stunt double).
I agree with Glyphstone. Especially when you compare the original trilogy to the prequels. Just watch Luke vs. Vader in the Empire Strikes Back, then Yoda vs. Palpatine in ROTS. The prequel trilogy had progressively flashier fights as budget and technology improved.
And to underscore that there is not supposed to be any distinction (besides the ones generated by technical limitations), let's take look at Yoda fighting in ROTS, then fighting in Clone Wars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI8kkR9G0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctN5s8z3E8E
(the latter is an illusion that only happened in Yoda's mind)
Yoda fights with the exact same style in both scenes, because he is a CGI figure in both. Palpatine was a stunt double in the former, and animated figure in the latter. A stunt double obviously can't move like a real Force-user, with their enhanced reflexes and limited precognitive powers. Even so, Sidious' fighting style still remains consistent in both scenes. He alternates between lightning and light-saber, and while Yoda is constantly spinning around, Palpatine remains relatively stationary.

[Thinker]

Kyberwulf is right about this one. What Darth Sidious does in the recent comics or TV shows is completely irrelevant to what he does in the movies. I can watch the movies without ever having watched or read that stuff and see what he does. It's not confusing or hard to understand (I know because I've not read the comics, books, or watched the TV shows). The OP was asking to compare what you see on the big screen for Darth Sidious versus what you see on the big screen for Apocalypse and then decide who is stronger in a fight. Given those limitations, it's pretty clear that the Force is weak sauce and Sidious gets run over.

[Flickerdart]

Forget the lightning and the sabers. Palpatine loses as soon as Apocalypse realizes that he's in a fight. Palpatine's only move would be to chessmaster his way to victory without giving Apocalypse an obvious target. His most useful Force power would be his ability to read minds - he could know exactly what Apocalypse is thinking and how to avoid being squished.

[Talakeal]

Forget the lightning and the sabers. Palpatine loses as soon as Apocalypse realizes that he's in a fight. Palpatine's only move would be to chessmaster his way to victory without giving Apocalypse an obvious target. His most useful Force power would be his ability to read minds - he could know exactly what Apocalypse is thinking and how to avoid being squished.

That worked out so well for Professor X.

[Darth Credence]

Just dropping in here to add a new wrinkle to the "which Palpatine to use" debate. Is everyone aware that there have been 8 Star Wars movies released in theaters? The 7 numbered episodes, plus the Clone Wars movie. Palpatine was in that movie. Ergo, the Clone Wars Palpatine is the film version. I assume the argument will now become about whether that makes the rest of the Clone Wars episodes count or not.

[Kyberwulf]

Meh, not really. Because the Original Poster, apparently wanted to skew the fight in favor of Darth Sidious. By limiting Apocalypse to the movie, and giving Sidious everything else at his disposal.

[Talakeal]

Just dropping in here to add a new wrinkle to the "which Palpatine to use" debate. Is everyone aware that there have been 8 Star Wars movies released in theaters? The 7 numbered episodes, plus the Clone Wars movie. Palpatine was in that movie. Ergo, the Clone Wars Palpatine is the film version. I assume the argument will now become about whether that makes the rest of the Clone Wars episodes count or not.

Does Palpatine do anything in Clone Wars besides talk to people and stand around looking ominous?

The OP specified film version, I don't think there can be much argument as to whether or not a TV series counts as a film.

[Kyberwulf]

Oh, yeah.. I forgot. In the Cartoon film version.... Palptine uses his insta kill to crush all the atoms of all his enemies, while reading everyones mind from the past, present, and every possible future. I don't know how that slipped my mind, Palpatine wins.

[Malistrae]

Oh, yeah.. I forgot. In the Cartoon film version.... Palptine uses his insta kill to crush all the atoms of all his enemies, while reading everyones mind from the past, present, and every possible future. I don't know how that slipped my mind, Palpatine wins.
Don't be coy, not even Legends!Palpatine can do that. And Apocalypse wins anyway, because even his film version is way more powerful than either version (Canon and Legends) of Palpatine.

Edit: I think the purpose of Darth Credence's post was to highlight the fact that Disney doesn't arbitrarily divide the Canon SW Universe (which now has a very strict definition and near-perfect internal consistency) into Films and everything else. There is now just the Canon SW Universe, which is whatever Disney deigns to include in it. The things you seem to imply only occur in Legends, which are no longer part of the Canon SW Universe!

[Estrecca]

Does Palpatine do anything in Clone Wars besides talk to people and stand around looking ominous?

In the series? Fight Maul and his brother and beat them in humiliating fashion, hit Yoda with some illusions through evil ritual magic and that kind of thing.

He is not too crazily far removed from the movie version of the character, unlike the thoroughly decanonized Wankatine of the Dark Empire period.

[Malistrae]

In the series? Fight Maul and his brother and beat them in humiliating fashion, hit Yoda with some illusions through evil ritual magic and that kind of thing.

He is not too crazily far removed from the movie version of the character, unlike the thoroughly decanonized Wankatine of the Dark Empire period.
Exactly. None of his feats in Clone Wars contradict what he did in Revenge of the Sith. They do expand him somewhat, but only in the horizontal sense, not vertically.

[Kyberwulf]

really? Have you watched the cartoons? If the movies where the same as the series, the fight between Mace and Palpatine should have been WAY more epic.

[Malistrae]

really? Have you watched the cartoons? If the movies where the same as the series, the fight between Mace and Palpatine should have been WAY more epic.
I think it was pretty obvious that Palpatine threw that fight in order to portray himself as a victim to Anakin (and he did slaughter 3 veteran jedi in 30 seconds). Did you notice that despite claiming that he was too weak to fight, he immediately blasted Windu the very moment Anakin sided with him?

And have you seen his fight against Yoda? Now, that's what I call epic. Force Jumps on both sides, powerful telekinesis, Force Lightning galore. In the Clone Wars, Sidious only fights once (since the second fight was a hallucination he sent against Yoda). He duels against Maul and Oppress and hands them both their asses. That fight is also visually impressive, but I wouldn't say it was more epic than the Yoda fight. And remember, Maul was Sidious' apprentice, while Oppress is a half-trained dark jedi. They are no more stronger than the 3 jedi Palpatine immediately massacred in the movie. If you look at the scene, Sidious could have Force Choked them to death at the very beginning. He instead lets them duel him, simply to prove to Maul that he is Sidious' absolute inferior and to indulge his sadism.

Edit: Please compare these two scenes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI8kkR9G0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

The only difference is that Sidious is SLIGHTLY more mobile, and uses somewhat flashier moves in the Clone Wars duel. This is because he was facing vastly inferior opponents, and could afford the exercise. Against Yoda, his equal, he fights more cautiously, but his fighting style is still essentially the same.

(It's also funny to note that Sidious essentially does the same thing to the Mandalorians in the Clone Wars scene that Yoda does to Palpatine's guards in the movie. Except he actually murders them, instead of merely knocking them out.)

Edit: On another note, you can see that in the Clone Wars scene, Palpatine uses a lot of kicking moves. This is because Maul and Oppress were pretty bulky and were slower than him. Yoda is both smaller (and thus difficult to kick effectively) and at least as fast as Sidious. Trying to kick Yoda in the same manner would have resulted in Palpatine quickly losing a leg or two.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Sidious couldn't even kill a muppet. One on one, Apocalypse curb-stomps.

Playing a shadow-game plays to Sidious's strengths, but even there, as soon as he manages to realize there's a fight going on, proceed to curb-stomp. The problem is... there's really not much that CAN stop Apocalypse. Sidious would pretty much have to play Xavier and get them all to work together to take out Apocalypse BEFORE he powers up. So yea, you're going to try to Jedi Mind Trick the most powerful telepath in the world... that's gonna end well... not. And then, when Xavier realizes Sidious is playing them, Sidious gets curb-stomped.

The absolute last one he wants to play with, however, is Magneto. Do you know how a light sabre works? Plasma bottle held together by an electromagnetic field, and immune to mind tricks. Sidious pulls his sabre, Magneto grins and disables the field. Ball of plasma cools down to fire then eventually goes out, leaving not even ash behind. Oops. And we all know how well Lightning works on him.

The only, ONLY way Sidious wins here is if he gets to bring his Death Star into position to fire on Earth and pulls a Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies event before anyone is aware he's doing it. Even then, that's not so much Sidious vs Apocalypse so much as Emperor Palpatine And His Empire vs Apocalypse. You're looking at trillions on one. Plus they brought their toys. Hardly fair.

Of course, then he ceases to exist because of the temporal paradox of exterminating his own species thousands of years before he was born, but... eh.

[SuperPanda]

Apart from Star Wars being a prequel to reality (A long time ago in a galaxy far far away) - the Emperor with his toys scenario is worth considering.

Film Apocalypse only fell when facing film Pheonix - and Pheonix was hardly explained at all. We saw him able to manipulate matter from a distance, heal from (almost) any injury, and absorb knowledge through TV (technopathy), oh and we saw him teleport.

Scenario 1) Sidious manages to find and destroy the planet Apocalypse is on with his imperial toys before Apocalypse realizes he needs to teleport off of it.

Scenario 2) (Assumes ranges on teleport abilities greater than seen so far) Apocalypse finds imperial tech before Sidious is ready to destroy his planet. Now possessed with the knowledge of the empire he starts porting to imperial worlds and taking them over. Turns into a wack-a-mole game for Sidious and hide and seek for Apocalypse.

Scenario 3) They have to fight in person. I don't see Sidious winning this.

Sidious is alot smarter than Film Apocalypse and has alot more toys. Film apocalypse needs to be deconstructed at the cellular level to be stopped once he knows he's in a fight. The battle could not be more asymetrical if we put The Doctor from Doctor Who against a full powered Thanos (My money would still be on the Doctor but that's mostly because both universes run off the idea that bad guys can't win for long).

[Mato]

Oh look another vs thread, Apocalypse of course. Even the film version has celestial technology, matter/energy manipulation, cellular regeneration, teleportation, telekinesis, shields, and technopathy. But it also adds a very powerful telepathy ability capable of back tracking and overwhelming the user so when Palpatine tries to Jedi/Sith mind read/trick on he becomes Apocalypse's mental slave.

All the usual arguments can receive all the usual rebuttals. It's character X vs character Y, not you with character's X's powers vs character Y. Every time you have to bring up allies/slaves/thralls/robots to make a point you are showing how weak your favorite is in a one-on-one fight, and always, always use fair grading rubrics unless you want to advertise with a flashing neon sign that you're strictly here for conformation that your favorite is the best and will likely argue until the end of time if any, no matter the evidence, says otherwise.

The scenario to me almost draws it's self out. Apocalypse awakens and drains the sum of knowledge from the local astro-units and protocol droids giving him an impossible high knowledge base that includes every single language and position and trajectory of every known planet in the galaxy. Learning of Darth Sidious's so called legendary telepathy, the one power he is missing, he teleports into the Emperor's flagship and if needed learns of Sidious's real location before teleporting there exactly as he did in the film with Professor X. The fight is a full on stomp, Palpatine's lighting is useless, his force-based telepathy doesn't match Apocalypse, his lightsabers are blocked by shields and stray hits are simply healed (assuming they can even penetrate his armor), and due to the feedback Palpatine simply knocks him self unconscious anyway. Frantically the Empire searches for their stolen master using clues of a blue guy recruiting four other aliens in a galaxy wide search all while Vader uses this opportunity to become the one and only Sith Lord. No help ever comes and when Darth Apocalypse reawakens the echo of his power is felt throughout the galaxy to even the force-insensitive.

[druid91]

Oh look another vs thread, Apocalypse of course. Even the film version has celestial technology, matter/energy manipulation, cellular regeneration, teleportation, telekinesis, shields, and technopathy. But it also adds a very powerful telepathy ability capable of back tracking and overwhelming the user so when Palpatine tries to Jedi/Sith mind read/trick on he becomes Apocalypse's mental slave.

All the usual arguments can receive all the usual rebuttals. It's character X vs character Y, not you with character's X's powers vs character Y. Every time you have to bring up allies/slaves/thralls/robots to make a point you are showing how weak your favorite is in a one-on-one fight, and always, always use fair grading rubrics unless you want to advertise with a flashing neon sign that you're strictly here for conformation that your favorite is the best and will likely argue until the end of time if any, no matter the evidence, says otherwise.

The scenario to me almost draws it's self out. Apocalypse awakens and drains the sum of knowledge from the local astro-units and protocol droids giving him an impossible high knowledge base that includes every single language and position and trajectory of every known planet in the galaxy. Learning of Darth Sidious's so called legendary telepathy, the one power he is missing, he teleports into the Emperor's flagship and if needed learns of Sidious's real location before teleporting there exactly as he did in the film with Professor X. The fight is a full on stomp, Palpatine's lighting is useless, his force-based telepathy doesn't match Apocalypse, his lightsabers are blocked by shields and stray hits are simply healed (assuming they can even penetrate his armor), and due to the feedback Palpatine simply knocks him self unconscious anyway. Frantically the Empire searches for their stolen master using clues of a blue guy recruiting four other aliens in a galaxy wide search all while Vader uses this opportunity to become the one and only Sith Lord. No help ever comes and when Darth Apocalypse reawakens the echo of his power is felt throughout the galaxy to even the force-insensitive.

Apocalypse doesn't ever awaken. Sidious detects his presence deep in the earth, and proceeds to blow the planet up.

This was the REAL reason Alderaan was destroyed.

[russdm]

Sidious loses in any situation where he doesn't have the Death Star aimed directly at Apoc and already firing. The Empire is actually going to make matters worse, because one star destroyer showing up and firing on Apoc gives him a place to teleport to, where he learn everything he needs to know. Given his material manipulation abilities, Apoc can build his own Star Destroyers and could probably create a personal Death Star.

Sidious has the Force, which translates with it's abilities into a lower level mutant in the X-Men Film Verse. Plus, the Force is limited in what it can actually do. Sidious can't see the Future that clearly, he can certainly try to influence events, but nowhere in the Canon does it show Sidious or Vader as being capable of sensing the exact location of other Force Users. Sidious can choke Dooku because Sidious can see Dooku in a hologram. Force Choke is presented as having a Sight Range Limit, in that you can't really choke someone without being able to see them. Look at what happens when Barris Ofee chokes that person in the cell; she was clearly watching through a camera. We never see anybody use Force Choke anywhere without there being sight lines directly involved.

Sidious doesn't even have a chance here. His chessmaster skills only worked because the Jedi never realized they were playing, and Apoc is not likely to be so blind. Sidious can't even really read Apoc's mind, without suffering some kind of mental feedback, and as soon as Siddy does, Apoc can connect with him. It is an absolutely horrible move for Sidious to take.

The Lightsaber is even more funny, in that after seeing it, Apoc could make his own from nothing but dust. He did create an entire pyramid after destroying an entire city, and given his other creation efforts he could easily make one, much stronger than Sidious' own lightsaber.

[Mato]

The Lightsaber is even more funny, in that after seeing it, Apoc could make his own from nothing but dust. He did create an entire pyramid after destroying an entire city, and given his other creation efforts he could easily make one, much stronger than Sidious' own lightsaber.

https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/images/f/fe/lightsaber.png