Thief stealth negated by clumsy chars

[BeefGood]

Seems like a rogue/thief should be able to help party surprise monsters but I can't figure out how this would work given some clumsy/heavy armor party members. For example rogue/thief goes 100 feet ahead of party using big stealth bonus to avoid being heard. Listens at door hears monsters. Sneaks back to party and informs them. They ready their attack plan, start moving toward the door and clank! Dwarf drops axe on mail-clad toe, ruining surprise.
Am I missing something, some strategy?
Part of my interest in this question is the idea of balance. It's odd that one of the primary abilities of a class would be negated/limited by other party members.

[HolyDraconus]

Group stealth is a thing in this edition. If the sneak is good have emailed do it for the party

[Kane0]

Because you can hide as a bonus action you could probably help with your regular action, giving advantage to that noisy party member or cancelling disadvantage if they are wearing the wrong armor.

Another option is l once youve scouted ahead ask your dm if you can take average of all stealth rolls as a party stealth roll in order to close to ambush range. This means your super high bonus can offset some horrible ones from your teammates and you stand the chance of all getting into position. Also theres only one number the DM has to compare against.

[EvilAnagram]

The entire party doesn't need to be hidden for an ambush to work, just the sneaky ones.

The Rogue/Ranger/Monk/whatever else is stealthy hide off to one side while the clunker acts as a distraction or lure.

Example: the Rogue and Bard are exceptionally stealthy, but the Fighter is abysmal and the Wizard is only so-so. The Rogue and Bard should hide a bit ahead of the other two, while the Wizard should hang back and be as quiet as he can. The Fighter, however, makes lots of noise and draws the nasties right past the Rogue and Bard, who get a surprise round when they launch their initial attacks.

Many people also allow successfully stealthy PCs to get a surprise round while the less stealthy ones do not.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Because you can hide as a bonus action you could probably help with your regular action, giving advantage to that noisy party member or cancelling disadvantage if they are wearing the wrong armor.

But if you're not in combat already then sneaking has nothing to do with action economy, and if it were possible to help with stealth, everyone could just pair up and do it anyway. But I don't really see how that would work.

[JellyPooga]

Check out "Group Checks" in the PHB. Only half of a group has to pass Stealth in order to be successful as a group. This can represent the more skillful members aiding the less skillful; pointing out where to step, when to stop and so forth.

[mephnick]

Group checks of course, but in a lot of situations you could still sneak attack/assassinate someone and then beat the enemies back to your group who are now waiting for them.

[Ruslan]

Absolutely use Group Checks in this case. Makes every party member feel useful. A party I DMed had two stealthy character (Rogue and Ranger) and three not so much (Wizard, Cleric, Fighter). They were trying to sneak up on some bandits. I asked for three successes from five party members (against the bandit sentry passive perception, which was 12). The Rogue and Ranger passed with no problem, and among the three non-stealthy PCs, one passed as well, and thus the entire party succeeded.

I can understand it can become quite unrealistic in some corner cases (an army of 600 lightly-armored rogues is able to sneak up just as well as an army of 600 rogues + 400 heavily armored fighters), but we're not in the business of building a world simulator, we're in the business of playing an enjoyable game.

[JellyPooga]

(an army of 600 lightly-armored rogues is able to sneak up just as well as an army of 600 rogues + 400 heavily armored fighters)

Heh, while it's totally unrealistic, you have to admit that it does create the possibility for some awesome imagery; a bunch of armoured samurai being silently carried over the castle wall by an equal force of ninja's to invade the palace, for example!

[Breashios]

... It's odd that one of the primary abilities of a class would be negated/limited by other party members.

Even if you DM doesn't use group checks somehow, you've already given your team a huge advantage, being able to map out routes and size up challenges when you scout ahead (when you are willing to take the personal risk). Otherwise finite magic resources would have to be used or the party would have to blunder around without having a specific plan to deal with a completely unknown threat. You primary abilities have already made a greater impact toward success (depending on the DM, of course) then the advantage gained from a single surprise turn.

Although it is nice to get both, knowing the disposition of the enemy appears to me to be the big get in such cases.

[Laserlight]

Summon Tenser's Floating Disk, and have your clumsy guys sit or stand on it while being towed to the right position.

[ad_hoc]

Many people also allow successfully stealthy PCs to get a surprise round while the less stealthy ones do not.

There are no surprise rounds in 5e.

It doesn't matter if they are unaware of some enemies, they just need to be aware of at least 1 enemy to not be surprised.

[Grod_The_Giant]

There's also always the spell Pass Without Trace to turn clumsy dwarves into stealth masters. (And stealth masters into out-and-out invisible ninjas)

[BW022]

Seems like a rogue/thief should be able to help party surprise monsters ...


Why? The fact you are stealthy does not mean others are. The wizard accepts that others can't cast fireballs merely because they are near you. Likewise... you need to accept that merely being near you won't make other people stealthy.

You need to develop tactics which don't rely on others making stealth checks.

1. Scouting It is good enough that you know what is ahead and convey this to the party. There is a massive difference between going into a fight not knowing what is behind a door and knowing exactly what is behind a door. How many? What weapons? Where is the caster? You can also sit there are listen for named, plans, etc. which folks might be discussing.

2. Timing Nothing says you can't wait until a more opportune time for your attack. Wait until they are asleep.

3. Use Magic Easy enough to sneak up on a party with a silence spell up. Scouting lets you know if/when it is worthwhile having that spell up and avoids issues with moving while silenced as they know what is ahead and have already discussed plans. You also have spells such as darkness, invisibility, teleporting, etc.

4. Distractions Easy enough for you to make certain distractions. Light a fire, make some noise elsewhere, dancing lights, minor illusion, etc. A bag of tricks, a familiar, etc. Even moving a few enemies elsewhere can cause a lot of confusion when the main attack happens.

5. Sabotage Unprepared foes are often extremely weak. It doesn't take a lot to make things really difficult for them. Poisons are often idea -- put it in their water. Traps set in areas where they are likely to be are great. Locking doors. Putting fake traps around. Mundane things such as marbles, caltrops, stealing weapons, tying boot laces together, tripwires, etc. can make for some serious issues. Stealing items from one enemy and putting them next to another enemy.

6. Subterfuge If your party may not need to be stealthy. Disguise of bluffs may work to get them close. Disguise self as one of them and con them into thinking that you've made a deal with some human mercenaries.

7. Ambushes Don't lead the party back to them. Go alone, attack them, and then lead them back to the party.

8. Sneak Back Know that the party is going to make noise, so after letting them know what is ahead, you sneak back and position yourself right behind the wizard's tent. They come marching up, make a lot of noise, the guards move forward, and you go after the wizard. Lots of enemy tactics include having archers, casters, or others in the rear. The moment guards have to run back, the fight is a lot easier. This often works well with distractions or deception. For example, if you make noise behind another doorway... some of the guards might go in that direction. You may wish to sneak back with another PC with good stealth.

9. Cover/Concealment There are a lot of spells or abilities which can delay combat a lot. Fog cloud, entangle, darkness, etc. can easily prevent them from getting into position before your group. Your group can simply rush down the hallway while the enemy is trying to move around in a fog cloud. Even putting a torch out can often take rounds for folks to regroup.

10. Start the Fight Sneak back, tell the group, sneak back into some location and then you start the fight. Say assassinate the wizard in his sleeping bag. The rest of your group will cover the 100' in a few rounds. The enemies might take a round or two to do anything and, seeing you at the rear, they might all rush back to you. Go defensive, disengage, climb walls, etc. By the time they realize the rest of the group is coming... they may already be through the door.

11. Leave Them Bypass the entire fight. Lock them in.

[Ashrym]

Tell the spell caster to dimension door in with the fighter then jump out of hiding to join them when they appear. Unless someone can see the future there's no reason not to grant surprise to someone who ddoors in.

Aside from that, other comments are good; especially group checks.

The fighter also has the option of stripping off the armor first or trading it in for armor that does not give disadvantage on stealth checks. Trade offs, natch.

[Tanarii]

You're right. If you want to surprise your enemies, you either need the entire party to be stealthy enough, or to be a separate party (per DM judgement). That's per the surprise rules.

That means Pass Without Trace, or the trickery cleric ability, is important. Alternately you'll have to initiate combat separately from your clunky members then they'll have to rush up once combat has started, possibly losing a round or two of actions.

Edit: group checks don't work here, because the surprise rules are specific. To achieve surprise against an enemy, that enemy must fail its passive perception check vs every member of your groups individual stealth checks.

Depending on your group and magic resources they are willing to spend, that can be be quite difficult or relatively easy to pull off.

[RickAllison]

This is where I suggest using readied actions. The party readies an action to run up when the rogue makes his attack. Only the rogue actually gets an attack while others are under surprise (or anyone else who is already sneaky in attack range), but everyone is a little closer for the action.

[Occasional Sage]

But if you're not in combat already then sneaking has nothing to do with action economy, and if it were possible to help with stealth, everyone could just pair up and do it anyway. But I don't really see how that would work.

*whispering*
"OK, Ijeoma, move over to this side of the hall, those floor boards creak. Great! Don't forget to hold onto your sheath so it doesn't bang into things again. Now, step on the stairs as close to the wall as you can, they make less noise that way."

That can be done with gestures, too.

Also, you can help by playing Follow the Leader. Any number of things can justify Helping with stealth.

[Ashrym]

Edit: group checks don't work here, because the surprise rules are specific. To achieve surprise against an enemy, that enemy must fail its passive perception check vs every member of your groups...

Only the contrary, group checks are specific. When every member of the party is attempting the same task (being stealthy in this case) the group check applies. Surprise states the checks of anyone hiding with the passive perception of each creature on the opposing side. It does not specify the stealth check of each of the hiding creatures. The word "each" indicates separate perception while the lack of the word "each" allows for a group check because "each" determines singularity within a group on only one side of that scenario. True Story. ;-)

It also starts with "the DM determines..." leading me to believe that's in alignment with "the DM might ask for a group abilty check" under group checks.

[RedGeomancer]

Only the contrary, group checks are specific. When every member of the party is attempting the same task (being stealthy in this case) the group check applies.

Group Checks: "Group checks don’t come up very often, and they’re most useful when all the characters succeed or fail as a group."

I don't see this as succeeding or failing as a group. Four people are walking down the hall trying to be stealthy. One person kicks a pot. That may suck for the other companions, but that's not a group failure. One person has given away their presence or location, three haven't.

I also fail to see how one person could meaningfully assist another at being stealthy.


Surprise states the checks of anyone hiding with the passive perception of each creature on the opposing side. It does not specify the stealth check of each of the hiding creatures.

I'm afraid it does: "…the GM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side." Note the word "anyone" in the phrase "the checks of anyone hiding". I think this means, literally, anyone hiding. I don't see how it can be interpreted as "the check of anyone hiding unless half the party has a better check that each creature on the opposing side".

[Ashrym]

Group Checks: "Group checks don’t come up very often, and they’re most useful when all the characters succeed or fail as a group."

I don't see this as succeeding or failing as a group. Four people are walking down the hall trying to be stealthy. One person kicks a pot. That may suck for the other companions, but that's not a group failure. One person has given away their presence or location, three haven't.

I also fail to see how one person could meaningfully assist another at being stealthy.



I'm afraid it does: "…the GM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side." Note the word "anyone" in the phrase "the checks of anyone hiding". I think this means, literally, anyone hiding. I don't see how it can be interpreted as "the check of anyone hiding unless half the party has a better check that each creature on the opposing side".

Read it again. It says the stealth checks for anyone is compared to each perception score. It does not state each stealth check is compared to each perception score. That does not preclude the party's option to help one another for stealth by stating that they are doing so, which is the basis of the group check.

There is no qualifier in the text to demonstrate each stealth check must be handled individually. That's being added in your interpretation. Anyone is not each. Anyone in any group still rolls to verify the success of the group check. The party should lead the narrative with "we move stealthily as a group to help one another" and that leads to a group check based on actions.

The word "anyone" isn't significant because anyone in navigating a swamp as a group is still rolling individually for a group check. What you are thinking of is "any one" as two words to signify individuals as opposed to the pronoun "anyone". "Each" is significant as a determiner pronoun.

Arguing language aside, Chris Perkins does allow group stealth checks based on the party trying to help the not so stealthy characters, demonstrating intent.

[djreynolds]

But its great... isn't it, that the guy clunking around in plate armor is giving you away.

Sounds logical. It makes MAM not seem, so impotent.

It why you need the rogue, and why scouting alone is dangerous and sneaking around in dungeons in full plate armor... might be a bad idea.

As a player, I feel for you, I do. As DM, I love it. Its fun.

For stealth, its only fair to add everyone's score together, and any positives and negatives. But unlike the help action, I'm unsure if group stealth checks qualify for any source of advantage because everyone is having to focus on stealthing

I feel that no matter what your combined party stealth ability is, if someone in the party is wearing armor that gives disadvantage to stealth... then you must roll any checks involving them at disadvantage... but that's fun isn't

Pass without a trace can help with +10 to stealth, maybe guidance, inspiration and expertise... but you're still rolling the group check with disadvantage, and 9 out of 10 times you will pass the stealth check, and then there is the one time you don't. Cue the chase montage.

[Breaklance]

I can't for the life of me find it in the PHB but my DM told me if you do something thoroughly and take your time with it you can take a flat rate to an ability check. He said, for example, that if you wanted to search a room you could roll for it (investigation / perception depending on what your looking for) or you could take 10 minutes to get a flat 10 on either score. And then it scales so a 15 would equal like 20 minutes searching and after 40 minutes searching you would of found anything your char would of if he rolled a 20.

Might be something from a previous edition or a homebrewed rule though. But I like it cause if you have time it makes things easier than just continuously rolling perception until you get a high enough number.

[djreynolds]

Its tough to weigh in on this. Because there is an element of danger, perhaps when using an ability check, only the rogue can take 10. I'm unsure.

I think I might have to let that DM run his/her table.

My issue is does using the help action affect any stealth check where the entire party in involved? Does it negate the disadvantage of wearing certain armor?

[JellyPooga]

Its tough to weigh in on this. Because there is an element of danger, perhaps when using an ability check, only the rogue can take 10. I'm unsure.

I think I might have to let that DM run his/her table.

My issue is does using the help action affect any stealth check where the entire party in involved? Does it negate the disadvantage of wearing certain armor?

Nothing about using the stealth skill states that you can't Help another character to grant advantage as far as I'm aware.

[Plaguescarred]

The entire party doesn't need to be hidden for an ambush to work, just the sneaky ones.

The Rogue/Ranger/Monk/whatever else is stealthy hide off to one side while the clunker acts as a distraction or lure.

Example: the Rogue and Bard are exceptionally stealthy, but the Fighter is abysmal and the Wizard is only so-so. The Rogue and Bard should hide a bit ahead of the other two, while the Wizard should hang back and be as quiet as he can. The Fighter, however, makes lots of noise and draws the nasties right past the Rogue and Bard, who get a surprise round when they launch their initial attacks.

Many people also allow successfully stealthy PCs to get a surprise round while the less stealthy ones do not.That's not how Surprise works in D&D 5E. There is no surprise round, and you're not surprised if you don't fail to notice a threat in the first round when combat begins.

[SillyPopeNachos]

I can't for the life of me find it in the PHB but my DM told me if you do something thoroughly and take your time with it you can take a flat rate to an ability check. He said, for example, that if you wanted to search a room you could roll for it (investigation / perception depending on what your looking for) or you could take 10 minutes to get a flat 10 on either score. And then it scales so a 15 would equal like 20 minutes searching and after 40 minutes searching you would of found anything your char would of if he rolled a 20.

Might be something from a previous edition or a homebrewed rule though. But I like it cause if you have time it makes things easier than just continuously rolling perception until you get a high enough number.
That's a variant of a 3.5 rule, and quite a good one. Sure, you can bypass the result of a bad initial roll, but at the expense of time, which can be a very valuable resource in certain situations.

Also, to the OP: Don't be afraid to incorporate common mundane items from equipment packs and the Player's Handbook. For example, after said rogue gets the location of the enemy and the area layout, he might quietly place a bunch of caltrops or ball bearings on the floor where he knows they will likely or be forced go to engage the group. In the case of caltrops, that's likely some free damage (as a DM I'd also give them disadvantage on attacks unless they make a wisdom save to resist pain while the caltrops are still in their feet), and in the case of ball bearings that's enemies slipping and sliding all over the place once they're alerted to the presence of clumsy dwarf, granting your front-liners advantage should they (likely) fall prone.

[Tanarii]

Only the contrary, group checks are specific. When every member of the party is attempting the same task (being stealthy in this case) the group check applies. Surprise states the checks of anyone hiding with the passive perception of each creature on the opposing side. It does not specify the stealth check of each of the hiding creatures. The word "each" indicates separate perception while the lack of the word "each" allows for a group check because "each" determines singularity within a group on only one side of that scenario. True Story. ;-)PHB rules on surprise:
"Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side."

Group checks cannot be used for surprise. Each creature rolls stealth individually.

Edit: okay, I really should read the rest of the thread before responding. :smallredface: :smallbiggrin:

Edit2:
Nothing about using the stealth skill states that you can't Help another character to grant advantage as far as I'm aware. if your DM is a stickler for action economy outside of combat, at least in terms of not allowing two things to be done simultaneously out of combat that would normally be an action each if in combat, he may not allow you to Hide and Help at the same time.

Also negating disadvantage of your Dex 8 Chainmail wearing Paladin or Cleric improves the chances, but their is typically still a good chance you're going to fail to achieve surprise.

[JellyPooga]

Edit2: if your DM is a stickler for action economy outside of combat, at least in terms of not allowing two things to be done simultaneously out of combat that would normally be an action each if in combat, he may not allow you to Hide and Help at the same time.

Hiding isn't something that needs to be done every "round", whether in or out of combat. Once you're hidden, you are free to take whatever actions you please and you will remain hidden so long as you don't reveal your position. Sure, a stickler for the rules won't allow you to Hide and Help simultaneously, but nothing can stop you Hiding then Helping. That's also assuming you count every use of the Stealth skill as a Hide Action, which I don't think is the case, especially with regard to Surprise. Hiding is one function of the Stealth skill, but not the entirety of it.

[Tanarii]

Sure, a stickler for the rules won't allow you to Hide and Help simultaneously, but nothing can stop you Hiding then Helping. Unless helping another person stealth (to distinguish from specifically) breaks your own attempt at stealth. That's not specified, but it's not an unreasonable ruling ... as in I could see a DM ruling that way and wouldn't object as a player.

As far as Stealthing every round over and over again goes, that'd be Passive Stealth.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I just don't think Stealth is generally among the activities where individual efforts are cumulative for the individual. (And helping obviously doesn't apply to group checks because the group check already represents everyone contributing.) (And I'm pretty sure tactical scale stealthing is not supposed to be a group check.)

If you could give someone advantage merely by giving advice before the activity ("don't drop hammer on toe, m'kay"), then as soon as you have two people wouldn't they have advantage always?

If you can give someone advantage by sharing knowledge during sneaking, why don't you always give yourself advantage by virtue of knowing those things and not having to whisper or gesture while applying them?

If someone can take the lead and everyone else follows (through assumed "creak-free zones"), how is anyone helping the leader?

If the leader fails while leading, shouldn't the others have been given disadvantage instead?

How much of stealth is laundry list knowledge or pointing out pitfalls ahead of time rather than informal knowledge, knowing-in-doing, improvising from experience, body coordination and swiftness, equipment issues, and other things that cannot be transmitted?

"It is not difficult to know a thing; what is difficult is to know how to use what you know." --Han Fei

[Ashrym]

That's a variant of a 3.5 rule, and quite a good one. Sure, you can bypass the result of a bad initial roll, but at the expense of time, which can be a very valuable resource in certain situations.

It's not just a variant 3.5 rule; it's listed in the DMG in 5e.

[Tanarii]

It's not just a variant 3.5 rule; it's listed in the DMG in 5e.

Not the way it was presented in breaklance's post.

The DMG rule is (paraphrased):
If you have no consequence for failure other than lost time, as long as success is possible, you can take 10 times as long and automatically succeed.

In other words, you can't use it with an opposed roll, because there is a consequence for failure, the other person wins the opposed roll. In the case of passive perception vs stealth, they see you if you try that.

[Ashrym]

Not the way it was presented in breaklance's post.

The DMG rule is (paraphrased):
If you have no consequence for failure other than lost time, as long as success is possible, you can take 10 times as long and automatically succeed.

In other words, you can't use it with an opposed roll, because there is a consequence for failure, the other person wins the opposed roll. In the case of passive perception vs stealth, they see you if you try that.

I was referring specifically to the rule and could have been more clear. There are skills and situations to which it cannot be applied.

[Tanarii]

I was referring specifically to the rule and could have been more clear. There are skills and situations to which it cannot be applied.Gotcha. Besides the post in question (even though it had the times and numbers wrong) was referring to searching, not stealthing.

[ad_hoc]

I would be fine with a Rogue using an 'action' to help 1 character use stealth while using their 'bonus action' to also use stealth.

If you want to help your party though then you should have been a Ranger, Druid, Shadow Monk, or someone else who can cast Pass Without Trace.

That is what it is for.

[djreynolds]

You know its silly, how for "mundane" stuff like using a crossbow or hiding... we are all very detail orientated but never do we question a wizard teleporting stuff. I mean a cleric "stealthing" in plate... never!!!

But its these things that do ground us to reality in the game, gravity still works... unless you have a spell to counter it.

I think if your using the stealth skill, one you are moving at a half rate and are consciously making sure you are quiet and unseen.

If you wish to use a group stealth check, I'm fine with that. I do not know the math, I'm guessing an average of everyone's stealth plus any modifiers. And I assume the cleric could have a spell like guidance up and running, lasts only a minute. Ranger has pass without a trace

But unless you did something to the armor, then there must be disadvantage for the group... that's part of the "negative" for wearing heavy armor.

But a high level rogue, say at 11th with reliable talent, I would allow him to be able to use the help action. It shows supreme experience... a good thief and walk right out the back door with a TV Set on his shoulder, or treasure chest.

It has to be the DM at the table. Do you want the game bogged down? Did the group drop their packs first? Did the rogue "silence" the pack properly? Are the wizards jingle jangles making noise along with all of their components? Does your table even care about this stuff?

But heavy armor comes with disadvantage and it has to count. Does silencing heavy armor ruins its AC temporarily? If you could silence heavy armor, why would they make mithral versions?

My advice, realistically, you may not want to stroll through dungeons in heavy armor.

[BeefGood]

Thank you all for the helpful ideas.