Do players EVER read the stuff you prepare for them?

[Albions_Angel]

I was looking forward to my next session. That was 5 minutes ago. A player just ruined that over facebook.

Sigh. Here goes.

So, I am having trouble with my players. All new to 3.5, all fairly inexperienced with 5e and D&D in general, they nevertheless signed up to join my campaign. I sent them everything they needed, lent them my books, pointed them to official and... unofficial sources, and wrote a fairly compact players guide to my world, including character creation and world background, house rules, geography and, most importantly for tonights rant, the pantheon of both the country they are playing in (a custom pantheon), and the rest of the world (listed where to find information on the gods).

I provide this 2 weeks before session 0. I get good feed back. They all say they liked the companion, that it made things easy, that no DM has done that for them before. That they will read through the PHB, contact me with ideas for characters, and then read up on the classes I suggest, as well as any more that catch their eye. #

Session 0 rolls round. No characters. No reading. No research. Session 0, only a couple of hours to go over ground rules, expectations, and to check over their characters and solve any issues, turns into an 8 hour slog as I painstakingly build each of their people from the ground up while they say things like "But I dont want penalties to stats!" and "Can I play a pixie from level one? I know you said they were too powerful, but they look cute." and "I cant wait to start playing. I have always wanted a combat orientated game. Thats why I thought it would be fun to have him be a pacifist. Can he use a gun?"

I get through it. They are enthusiastic. So theres that. And its 2 weeks before the next session is due. So they have time. I tell them to brush up on both the world AND the combat rules and how to use skills. I point them here. I point them to reddit. I tell them to ask for help.

I end up more or less playing their characters for them in the first session. "Ok, so I would make a spot check here. Well because you need to look out for anything out of the ordinary. Because thats what you were employed to do? Ok, do you want to look out for something or not. Ok, you do? Roll a d20. Yep. Now add your spot bonus. No, not your base attack bonus. Your spot bonus. No, that one. Yes that one. No, not the ranks. No, thats just your wisdom modifier. Look in the column that says total. Yup. Thats your bonus. Ok. So what did you get? No, thats just your bonus again. You need to add that to... no, dont roll a d6. Look, you rolled a 10, and you have a bonus of +9. So you got a 19, understand? Because 19 is 10 plus 9. The 9 comes from your bonus. No, the 10 is what you rolled. Look, it doesnt matter, you fail to spot anything out of the ordinary. In the surprise round you they fire a crossbow at you. Whats your flat footed AC? No, the one that is in the box labeled Flat Footed. Remember, thats the one you use if you are "caught flat footed"? Its your armor, but you arnt dodging, so its not your dex. Look, it cant possibly be 3. We worked this out 2 weeks ago. 10 + armor bonus + magic item bonus + spells. You dont have any spells or magic items, so its just 10 + armor bonus...." and so on. For 11 hours. In what was supposed to be an 8 hour session. But they were getting there and towards the end I began to relax, let them take over, and enjoy myself. They went away super happy, said I was the best DM ever (Im not, but hey, Ill take what I can get!).

Now they have 2 weeks to level up. Only... guess what. They dont read anything, they make no attempt, I have to spend an hour leveling them all up at the start of session 2. And session 2 goes ok. I enjoy it a lot less, they enjoy it a lot more, so I guess its a lose/win situation. And no one died (well, technically they did because the player either flat out lied or just ****ed up when I said "You fail your poison save, take another 1d4 strength damage." and he takes 1d4 off his HP, rather than his currently 1 strength.) Even then I had to coach them through order of operations when it came to secondary saves for poison. "Look, you dont have a divine caster who can use the wand of lessor restoration without fail. Normally you would just be able to keep trying, effectively taking a 20 with use magic device, but you are on a time limit here. Your fort save is low. But 2 of you have healing. Look, you aid, you just have to get a 10, which means you just need to roll a 3 or higher. Good, now you are adding +2 to his heal roll. Go on, make a heal check yourself now, and add 2. No, dont heal her, she was bitten AFTER him. If you heal her, he will die. No, you cant do both at once, thats not how it works. Im sorry, but you have to pick and your character is smart enough to prioritize. They also just rolled a natural 20 on their heal check, they can triage effectively."

Well 2 weeks have gone by. Session 3 is on sunday. They have the hang of things now. Just. Then I get his message on facebook.


what are the gods of your realm (Jarlheim and non-Jarlheim) Preferably one about the sea

I DONT KNOW PLAYER WHO HAS HAD ALL THE RESOURCES FOR OVER A MONTH NOW, MAYBE THEY CAN BE FOUND IN THE "PANTHEON OF JARLHEIM" OR THE "PANTHEONS OF THE WORLD" SECTIONS OF THE FREAKING GUIDE I SPENT 6 MONTHS CREATING AND CUTTING DOWN TO MAKE EASY TO READ. THE GUIDE YOU SOMEHOW LOST JUST LAST WEEK AND I RE-SENT YOU AS THE LAST FREAKING MESSAGE BETWEEN US. ITS LITERALLY RIGHT THERE DIRECTLY ABOVE YOUR NEW MESSAGE!!!

Was my last group unusual in reading the DMs material? Am I unique now in thinking it a good idea to actually start a game knowing a little about the world as though I grew up there? Do 5e players make background and then just wander off while the DM plays on their own? Because thats how it feels right now!

Am I a bad DM? Is that it? Should I give it all up? I feel like a bad DM. I mean, my players seem to be having fun. But my god is it hard work. I dont mean the DMing, I mean getting them to actually play. Or read. Or be interested in anything other than the session in front of them. And I can feel the fun slipping away. And all I can think is "maybe they only like it because its their first 3.5e game. Maybe a real 3.5e player would hate it. Maybe you shouldnt play any more."

There is one saving grace. I get to rant to you guys without worrying they will see this.

[GilesTheCleric]

I don't think individual players will ever put in as much effort as a GM, and that's just the nature of things. However, some players may really be interested in those materials you made -- just not these specific people. To use an anecdote, the last campaign I played in, I read 5+ books (both 2e and 3e) and spent days researching on the candlekeep and other lore sites to create my backstory (for a planetouched whose father came from the ancient Netheril Empire). I personally pieced together maps of the Netheril Empire during different eras, because there's only a few published maps, and they're missing a whole lot of cities and history. Not everyone has those kinds of compulsions to get into a lot of detail. In contrast, my brother's last backstory was basically "I'm a goliath, and I'm a fairly agreeable guy". And it was fine for the game, because he played well in the group, followed the rules, and everyone enjoyed it. He'll be joining one of my upcoming campaigns along with two other folks who can get just as detailed about their characters as I do, and I'm sure we'll all continue to have fun.

From my perspective, the problem here is that your expectations and your players' expectations are different. And that's fine. There's a way to compromise that can make everyone happy, though it might require you lowering your expectations of how much out-of-game work they want to put in. The game can still be fun, and they can still have opportunities to engage with all that content you created -- just position it a different way. Find ways to make it more relevant in-game, and then see how they interact with it.

[thoroughlyS]

This sounds about right. Honestly, you can't really do much to motivate them if they don't want to do the reading. The best you can hope for is that something you throw at them piques their interest.

That's not to say what your doing is bad, it just means that players will only ever put in the amount of work they are comfortable with and you can't do anything to change that amount.

[ComaVision]

Personally, I'm just happy if the player has read the PHB. I would never supply the group with a bunch of background because it would only fuel frustration.

[Zanos]

Personally, I'm just happy if the player has read the PHB. I would never supply the group with a bunch of background because it would only fuel frustration.
Yeah, seriously.

I've had players that refused to do pretty much anything like OP describes. They aren't in my games anymore. I don't mind if people don't get around to reading my fanwank setting materials, but you do need to know how to play the game.

[exelsisxax]

You are not a bad DM. You sound like a great DM that many players would thoroughly enjoy playing campaigns with.

But your players sound like they suck. Not just an difference in expectations between you, which is certainly there, but far above that. "read the rules" isn't a difficult task, but you describe them with complete and utter lack of any knowledge of how a TTRPG works with no motivation to learn.

That's a pretty big rant, so the issue is pretty big. I think that you should stop DMing for this group before RPGs are ruined for you forever. People that don't make any effort in the game shouldn't be playing. You've done FAR more work than anyone could reasonably ask of you, but it doesn't matter to them.

[AvatarVecna]

Saturday, I have my third session as a player in a new IRL game. One of the other players is new to 5e, and one is new to TTRPG in general. And the DM has a very in-depth world description, complete with custom homebrew races to represent the social and physiological differences between different subraces of elves. Neither of these less veteran players, including the dude completely new to these kinds of games, had any trouble creating a character or immersing themselves in the world created.

You are not a bad DM. Your players are morons who literally can't grasp how d20+bonus works.

[John Longarrow]

I'd sit down and talk to each of your players about what they like/don't like as far as stories go. You can have an incredibly detailed background that fits your choice of settings, and you can invest hundreds of hours in developing it. If your players are not interested in that type of setting then they are not going to read it or play around it.

I'd also talk to them about how much time they want to spend away from the game table learning about the game. They may be unmotivated to read because they've limited experience with the game and are looking to you to teach them. Were I given 200 pages of rules to read with a 2 week time limit I'd be less than inclined to read it if I don't know what will be relevant to my participation.

Main thing is talk to them. Talk to each player. Ask them outside of the game what they want and what they are willing to invest.

[Draconium]

Okay, I've been following your threads on these players for a while now, and I think that there's something that I need to say about this.

Number one rule of GMing: Your most important job is making sure the players have fun.

Caveat: The players' fun should never come at the expense of your own.


I feel sorry for you. I think you need to actually sit down with your players (not just the "problem" one in this case, all of them) and tell them that you will not be able to continue this game unless they're willing to work with you. Otherwise, it's not fun for you, it's just work. It's good that they're having fun, but you have no obligation to continue the game if all you take away from it is frustration and anger.

[exelsisxax]

Okay, I've been following your threads on these players for a while now, and I think that there's something that I need to say about this.

Number one rule of GMing: Your most important job is making sure the players have fun.

Caveat: The players' fun should never come at the expense of your own.


I feel sorry for you. I think you need to actually sit down with your players (not just the "problem" one in this case, all of them) and tell them that you will not be able to continue this game unless they're willing to work with you. Otherwise, it's not fun for you, it's just work. It's good that they're having fun, but you have no obligation to continue the game if all you take away from it is frustration and anger.

This is the "awful stupid paladin" thread party?! OP, please don't put up with these people's crap. I suggest you immediately tell them you won't DM for them anymore.

[Milo v3]

I was once lucky enough to have a group where if I said "Read x chapter of this book so you know the basics" and they'd do it. But then never get time to actually make a character or have a session, and when I had groups that could actually arrange times to play don't read content before play.

[Venger]

this sounds like it’s a discrepancy between your goals and your players’.

I find a constructive thing to do is ask my players what they want out of a campaign at session 0 and tell them what I want out of gming.

here, I can learn things about their expectations for pacing, tone, and style, and I can see what the overlap is with mine, and what compromises can be made so we can all get what we want.

e.g. if my players want a lighthearted, mostly comedic game, I can know to save my campaign about combatting thayan child slavers for later before I start statting out npcs and working on a story bible.

this is also a good time to talk about what level of involvement your party is looking for outside of actual gametime. if one of them says “the time we spend playing is really my only free time during the week due to my work schedule. realistically, I won’t be able to read” then you can take that into account. rather than expect them to know the ins and outs of the worshippers of blibdoolpoolp, you might have the party go to one of her temples in the game and show them the stuff you want thm to know

if your party is unable to do work on the game outside of the time you’ve set aside from the game, you can budget that in when planning sessions. if you know you’re going to need the first hour of time to help people level up before play, you can know that in advance and plan out 5 hours of campaign instead of 6.

even assuming your party does have time outside of the game to allocate to game prep, 3.5 is a very daunting system to handle on your own, especially if you’ve never played it before, and something like leveling up is a very fragmented process, especially if there’s a lot of book diving involved. for people who haven’t played 3.5 before, you should definitely factor in time to shepherd them along during character generation.

your players sound like they’re having fun, but you resent doing level up/checks/etc for them. that’s totally valid. had you considered using a system other than 3.5? something more rules light, that would accomodate the story you want to tell.

there’s always going to be a divide between the amount of investment on the gm’s part, and on the player’s part. if you’re running the game and creating a whole world with dozens of characters, of course you’re going to be more involved in it than someone who’s only created one.

remember while the whole world is why you’re here, the player’s only going to experience parts of it from whatever lens they’ve chosen for their character.

I had a similar experience last weekend. my players were infiltrating a rival party and intercepted a communique signed by the leader of their faction.

I posted this communique to a facebook group I run for my campaign where I put litle bits of worldbuilding things, pieces of gossip they hear around town, or other information that I think would be interesting and things I think might hook the players’ interest. they will sometimes respond in or out of character with comments, reactions, or express interest in following leads.

I’ve found this is a good way to maintain interest in between sessions, and to figure out what players do in downtime between adventures.

I got a message from one of my players saying “who is this note from? I don’t recognize that name”

I can see how a gm might be annoyed by this. within the confines of my campaign, this character was the pc’s archnemesis, and they’d been rivals since childhood, growing up in the same town, etc. in my notes, I had this written under the bio I’d worked up for the PC based on her actions in game.

I stopped and thought about how it was possible for the player (not the character) to forget this information and thought about how I would approach it from his perspective. I checked my campaign journal and found that the nemesis character hadn’t had any significant spotlight time in about a month of real-world time, and had been mostly working in the background while the party pursued other plothooks.

with this in mind, I wrote up a brief highlights reel on who that was, and what had been going on recently and to let me know if he had any more questions.

and that was the end of that.

I think you should have a talk with your players at the next session about your expectations from the game and see if there’s enough common ground for you to want to continue. it sounds like they’re mostly enjoying themselves and you aren’t. if there’s not a way to proceed, it’s better for you and them if you know sooner rather than later

[Crake]

Honestly, as others have said, expecting them to learn and understand the rules over such a short period of time is expecting a lot. Usually the way I do it for new players is to tell them to just ignore the rules and tell me what they want their characters to do, and I'll tell them what to roll and how and why.

That's how I handle explaining the rules to new players, and have been successful with that for a variety of new players. It saves you worry, lets you explain the rules and doesn't overwhelm the players with too much information at once.

Now if you think that learning a whole system in 2 weeks is going to be a lot, learning about a whole setting is even harder. This is usually why during session 0, I personally give everyone a verbal rundown of the setting, what to expect, and what is appropriate. The player who wanted to play a pixie? Don't say it's because they're too powerful, say it's because it's too complicated for them. Pixies CAN be played from level 1 after all, with savage progressions, but it's too much for a new player. And hell, maybe you just don't want to deal with a pixie character, if so just tell them. There will be players who read up, and reward them for doing so, let them use the knowledge they gain. Those that don't will need to make checks: What's the god of the sea in my game? Roll me a knowledge (religion) check. You failed? Oh, that's unfortunate, I guess your character doesn't know. If you just feed the players whatever information they ask for, they're not going to be motivated to learn more on their own, and if the prospect of being able to use the information freely available to them to advance their own agenda in the game doesn't appeal to them then there's no point even trying. Some players just don't care enough, and you need to accept that, focus more on the ones that do, ensure that their gaming experience matches what you want, and next time only invite the players who matched your standards of play.

[Manyasone]

Kudos to you for not going complete batsh*t.
You don't know any of these people IRL, right? Because most of my players hear it in my voice when I'm losing patience. And of course it's easier to talk it out afterwards or have discussions during

[Manyasone]

Honestly, as others have said, expecting them to learn and understand the rules over such a short period of time is expecting a lot.
I have to respectfully disagree here. My eight year old daughter read books for ten year olds since last year and has absolutely no problems in absorbing the story since she always tells me about it afterward. We are dealing with adults here who apparently can't do a simple calculation...

[Crake]

I have to respectfully disagree here. My eight year old daughter read books for ten year olds since last year and has absolutely no problems in absorbing the story since she always tells me about it afterward. We are dealing with adults here who apparently can't do a simple calculation...

Absorbing a story is very different from reading a ton of seemingly arbitrary rules and trying to understand it between working, studying, writing papers, or whatever else these (assumedly) grown adults need to do in their day to day lives. Kudos to your daughter, but it's really not the same. A story typically flows quite well, and is easy to follow. The worst part is, these rulebooks are not only hard to just sit down and read, but are also hard to interpret correctly. Just look at the length of the "Questions answered by RAW" thread, and the sheer quantity of questions asked, and you'll see the problem in what you're expecting.

For a system like DND 3.5e, being taught the rules by an experienced DM is so much more efficient, and also cuts the bloat of rules down to exactly what you need to know for each given moment, rather than learning a bunch of rules that you may not use for over a year, and have forgotten by the time it comes up.

[BWR]

To answer the title: yes, some of them do. I, for one.

However, not everyone has the time or inclination to read through a lot of material. Often times it is much easier to ask a simple question and get a response of where to look than trawl through everything on your own. Pretending to read through something and then making trouble is not good, obviously, and such behavior should be discouraged, but I have long since given up expecting players to put as much effort into learning the setting and rules as I do; part of the GM's job is to be the repository of knowledge about the setting (however nice it is when players do their homework and get the details right).

The game is cooperative and if my players have to put up with me throwing all sorts of lore and restrictions and expectations at them, I have to put up with them not knowing everything beforehand or being able to read my mind.

[Jarmen4u]

Absorbing a story is very different from reading a ton of seemingly arbitrary rules and trying to understand it between working, studying, writing papers, or whatever else these (assumedly) grown adults need to do in their day to day lives. Kudos to your daughter, but it's really not the same. A story typically flows quite well, and is easy to follow. The worst part is, these rulebooks are not only hard to just sit down and read, but are also hard to interpret correctly. Just look at the length of the "Questions answered by RAW" thread, and the sheer quantity of questions asked, and you'll see the problem in what you're expecting.

For a system like DND 3.5e, being taught the rules by an experienced DM is so much more efficient, and also cuts the bloat of rules down to exactly what you need to know for each given moment, rather than learning a bunch of rules that you may not use for over a year, and have forgotten by the time it comes up.

Granted, the rules can be very confusing. But we're not talking about things that would be discussed in a RAW thread. It's like they didn't even read the chapters on combat or skills or ability scores. There's (almost) nothing in those chapters that can be misinterpreted at all. I see it as pure laziness or disinterest.

I've played in many games where one or two players were new or brand new to the system, and every time it was their time to take an action, or their turn in combat, they didn't know what to roll, what their character did, what did what, etc.. Often, it was a girl who was a friend of the DM (which lead to the player not being kicked out or reprimanded). It seemed like the girls had little to no interest in any mechanics, and wanted to do, more or less, a sort of free form RPG without a lot of rules or dice. Before anyone comments on this, I'm not stereotyping girls in this hobby. It's just an example of players who aren't interested in learning even basic rules.

So as the others said above, make sure your players even want to do this. I've been guilty of trying to drag a bunch of friends together for some D&D, just for them to not do any of the homework because they only agreed to do it as a favor to me. You might be better off saving all this work for a campaign where you can get serious players, and just throw some ramshackle game together for the people who don't appreciate the effort you've put out.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Dear Frustrated Dungeon Master...

This is why whenever I have new players, I throw them into a generic sandbox where there is no over-arching plot, no story, and their characters are basically as deep as 'red wizard', 'blue warrior needs food badly' and 'yellow archer'.

Because guess what? Rookies gotta start with training wheels. They need notecards that have bold text, telling them what their AC is, and the formula for making to-hit rolls in size 30 font.

You got over-eager, and didn't test the waters, you just threw the kids who were fresh from the wading pool, into the deep end. I know this... Because I've done the same thing. It is very painful, watching players go 'lol, I hit the shopkeep with my sword and take all his stuff' straight to 'what do you mean the guards want to arrest me? I didn't do anything wrong!' without burying your face in your hands and sobbing.

I suggest taking your very cool-sounding world, and putting it someplace safe. That's a big-kids game, you've basically got your own Middle-Earth waiting... And it's going to have to wait a while longer, while you teach the little ones how to tie their shoes, and you read The Hobbit to them, taking the time to explain the big words to them.

Best Regards,
An Equally (but Mostly Formerly) Frustrated Dungeon Master

P.S: New players never read **** you prepare for them. Burn them all.

[Milo v3]

Just look at the length of the "Questions answered by RAW" thread, and the sheer quantity of questions asked, and you'll see the problem in what you're expecting.
That thread isn't about what you're implying it's about.... It's a joke thread with questions like "What is the sound of one-hand clapping" and "What is the meaning of life".

[Manyasone]

Bit background as to my own experience. I started playing the game in the end years of second edition. Planescape no less, so a lot of lore. I loved every bit of it. During third and the 3.5 update I had a lot of eye rolling moments when reading the rules, but I believe when a healthy dose of common sense is applied most of the weird problems van be smoothed over. Whenever my DM started a campaign and told us where it would situate, most of the players looked up the necessary lore and aided each other in interpretation. When I started to DM in Kingdoms of Kalamar I also offered the necessary lore to my players and now in Pathfinder I continue to do so. I want my players to understand the world is alive regardless of their actions (an earlier thread I started was about this, the 'vacuum' some players asume). These players make no effort whatsoever according to the OP, this is frustrating to say the least. It isn't hard to read a small player guide. Every AP from paizo or 3PP has one. Some things won't even apply to certain characters... In any case, OP, I'd confront them with this behaviour. It is important for you to have fun as well, which at this point you're lacking

[Buufreak]

For the title question, 9 times out of 10, no.

As for everything else, my condolences. It has been my experience that the few who put that much effort into learning not only a system but also the lore end up becoming DMs themselves. Perhaps a solution is DMing for DMs?

[Twurps]

I read the stuff, multiple times over. I do my best to integrate my own character with it, both making my background deep enough to really flesh out a character, but leave enough hooks open to find a reason later why I want to get along with my fellow players who's characters I don't know. I also know the rules to the extend that our DM usually turns to me before even attempting a book-delve if a rules question comes up.

Having said that: I didn't always roll/calculate all my spots/saves/attacks correct either. Touch AC, Flat-footed AC, flanking, sneaking, surprise rounds, charging damage multipliers, etc have all confused me at one point or another for months. You can't just read the PH cover to cover and remember it all. If I'm reading about checks without having ever rolled one, it all goes in one ear and out the other.
The way to learn this stuff is to experience it, run into questions, follow up on those in the books, and then run into more questions. The first time just reading any of the books cover to cover was helpfull for me, was after almost a year of playing. I still feel this game has more rules and books to grasp than my entire college degree.

So in short: I have to agree with those before me who suggested to start simpler.

[dhasenan]

I expect players to read two paragraphs of text or skim eight paragraphs.

For your situation, you might find that everyone's happier if you have character creation at the first session and you guide people through it.

[Yahzi]

Should I give it all up?
Yes.

You are not trying to play a game; you are trying to tell a story.

The proper medium for that is writing. I encourage you to check out places like RoyalRoad and FictionGrill, where new writers are breaking into the craft. I also recommend Critters on-line critique group once you get serious.

So learn to weave your world-building into character development, learn to lay out your plots through character's personalities and interactions, and write a novel.

Also, you can run a game on the side for kicks, because why not? Once your artistic energies are directed towards something more rewarding, you'll find the game a lot more fun.

[Chronikoce]

It varies. As a DM I've given up expecting anything at all in terms of reading from all but 1 of my players. On the bright side I get to be a player with him as a DM for a bit so now I can be the only one who reads.

First session was tonight and I was the only one with a backstory while another guy's consisted of "I look like a hobo". That's basically all he said.

[exelsisxax]

It varies. As a DM I've given up expecting anything at all in terms of reading from all but 1 of my players. On the bright side I get to be a player with him as a DM for a bit so now I can be the only one who reads.

First session was tonight and I was the only one with a backstory while another guy's consisted of "I look like a hobo". That's basically all he said.

Did that hobo end up with a character? Because the main complaint is that none of these people do anything, from reading the lore, setting information, making characters, understanding the rules, or being able to perform basic tasks.

[Crake]

That thread isn't about what you're implying it's about.... It's a joke thread with questions like "What is the sound of one-hand clapping" and "What is the meaning of life".

Sorry, I was referring to the "Simple RAW thread" stickied at the top of the forum, the one on it's 32nd iteration because of it's sheer volume of posts, not the thread you're referring to.


Granted, the rules can be very confusing. But we're not talking about things that would be discussed in a RAW thread. It's like they didn't even read the chapters on combat or skills or ability scores. There's (almost) nothing in those chapters that can be misinterpreted at all. I see it as pure laziness or disinterest.

I'm not saying that they're necessarily hard to understand, it's the sheer volume of information, and the dryness of it that quickly deters someone with 1-2 hours of free time each evening to opt out of reading, quite literally, a rulebook. I would never expect that of a grown adult, simply because a) half the stuff they're going to read is not going to be relevant right away, and thus be quickly forgotten, and b) I can explain the rules much more efficiently at the table. Sure you can argue that explaining the rules at the table means less game time, but if the alternative is expecting them to remember it all after reading it, running into a brick wall because they didn't, and then having to explain the rules anyway, ontop of eating into their free time away from the table? I'd take the first option every time.

I mean, do what you want, sure, but I don't think it's a reasonable gripe to be mad at the players for not remembering the rules. For all we know, they DID read the chapter on combat, and subsequently forgot everything because nothing was explained to them in a way that linked all the parts. It's like trying to read a legal document, without knowing the lingo every 5 minutes you need to look up what something is/means, which, as you're reading, will make you have to look up 2 more things and so on so on until people just get annoyed and give up.

[Mr Blobby]

Reading all this, I can't help but think of this:

Did you have neutral party[ies] proof-read your stuff before you gave it to your players? Not everyone likes to read, and if presented with 'a tome' [some people would call 1k of words this] will shrug and not bother. Did you write it as a FAQ, a manual or a novel style? Was every bit of it *vital* for them to know at the start? If it was quite detailed, did you break it up into paragraphs, proper chapters etc? Did you provide an index or a contents page to allow the player[s] to quickly look something up? Did you where you could break up the text with diagrams, pictures, bullet point summaries etc?

I always provide the background stuff - but I assume that the players won't read it until they have to - I'd guess less than 20% do read it off their own bat. But once they get the 14th reply of 'it is on page X of the guide', they start getting the idea that if they've got a question, there's a good chance you've already answered it there.

[Fizban]

For a system like DND 3.5e, being taught the rules by an experienced DM is so much more efficient,.

I don't think it's a reasonable gripe to be mad at the players for not remembering the rules..
These are players who have been taught the rules by an experienced DM, for multiple sessions, and can't remember the most basic mechanic of the entire game: roll a d20 and add bonus. That is most emphatically not reasonable. That's equivalent to forgetting "put the key in the ignition" or "the mouse makes the pointer move" or "wear pants so the police don't arrest you for public indecency." Things that a four year old knows how to do. I'll give you once as the session gets going, but anyone who asks what die they're supposed to roll twice in the same day is probably hopeless, even if they're "getting the hang of it" by the end of one session it won't matter the next.

The all caps inspiring moment that started the thread is similarly inexcusable. The players had already gushed about the campaign notes and evidently the player in question responded to an email containing the notes with a question that would have been answered by looking at the notes. That's not a problem with being unable to memorize the whole book or forgetting things you don't use often. It's like asking your teacher how to spell a word when they just wrote the word on the board.

Incidentally, that's the part that bugs me the most. I hate, hate when people act like they're all enthusiastic and then do absolutely nothing. If you actually cared about the game (not just being in *any* game but in *this* game), you'd remember the rules. If you actually liked that setting document, you'd have looked up the answer to your own question.

[Sian]

It quite frankly sounds like you're more interested in the creative process of worldbuilding an epic setting, than you are in figuring out what your players are interested in. Not that there is anything wrong in being interested in getting those creative juices flowing, but you picked the wrong place, wrong time, and maybe/probably the wrong audience.

I would suggest that you went a dig deeper into the creative process and retool it into a fantasy novel of some kind, and then ran some rather generic and perhaps even impromptu (short of note cards, no single item/character is allowed to fill more than 1/3th of a page), and only if you already know that the dedication levels are tall enough, unearth your setting.

[Venger]

Yes.

You are not trying to play a game; you are trying to tell a story.

The proper medium for that is writing. I encourage you to check out places like RoyalRoad and FictionGrill, where new writers are breaking into the craft. I also recommend Critters on-line critique group once you get serious.

So learn to weave your world-building into character development, learn to lay out your plots through character's personalities and interactions, and write a novel.

Also, you can run a game on the side for kicks, because why not? Once your artistic energies are directed towards something more rewarding, you'll find the game a lot more fun.


It quite frankly sounds like you're more interested in the creative process of worldbuilding an epic setting, than you are in figuring out what your players are interested in. Not that there is anything wrong in being interested in getting those creative juices flowing, but you picked the wrong place, wrong time, and maybe/probably the wrong audience.

I would suggest that you went a dig deeper into the creative process and retool it into a fantasy novel of some kind, and then ran some rather generic and perhaps even impromptu (short of note cards, no single item/character is allowed to fill more than 1/3th of a page), and only if you already know that the dedication levels are tall enough, unearth your setting.

November is also national novel writing month (http://nanowrimo.org/forums) and lots of people write about their D&D campaigns. there are even boards for worldbuilding and fantasy in addition to ones on more generalized subjects.

[Telok]

Incidentally, that's the part that bugs me the most. I hate, hate when people act like they're all enthusiastic and then do absolutely nothing. If you actually cared about the game (not just being in *any* game but in *this* game), you'd remember the rules. If you actually liked that setting document, you'd have looked up the answer to your own question.

I had players who always lost the maps I printed (in color) for them. They also never wrote down or remembered what that plot important artifacts an magic items did.

I am not a babysitter. I work to try and make a fun game. If someone doesn't want to play they don't have to. If they do want to play then they need to at least remember their character sheet, what the numbers mean, and at least try to read and remember a little bit about the game.

[Darth Ultron]

Was my last group unusual in reading the DMs material? Am I unique now in thinking it a good idea to actually start a game knowing a little about the world as though I grew up there? Do 5e players make background and then just wander off while the DM plays on their own? Because thats how it feels right now!

Am I a bad DM? Is that it? Should I give it all up? I feel like a bad DM. I mean, my players seem to be having fun. But my god is it hard work. I dont mean the DMing, I mean getting them to actually play. Or read. Or be interested in anything other than the session in front of them. And I can feel the fun slipping away. And all I can think is "maybe they only like it because its their first 3.5e game. Maybe a real 3.5e player would hate it. Maybe you shouldnt play any more."

The answer is simple: Good players will, Bad players won't.

Your not a Bad DM. You should not give up. You might want to pick other players or go for their carefree play style.


It quite frankly sounds like you're more interested in the creative process of worldbuilding an epic setting, than you are in figuring out what your players are interested in. Not that there is anything wrong in being interested in getting those creative juices flowing, but you picked the wrong place, wrong time, and maybe/probably the wrong audience.


This is not exactly right, but it's a typical thing you will see posted. The idea that somehow the DM is ''just doing their own thing'' and the poor players want something diffident that is ''just super deep and amazing beyond words.''

Though it seems very clear that you have very Casual Players: players that just want to show up and roll some dice and have fun. And that is it.

[Albions_Angel]

Hey all

So I read through everything. Its been very therapeutic. I wish I could have you all as players.

Session 3 is tomorrow. I know I promised logs of sessions 1 and 2 this week but I just havnt been feeling up to it. Its taken me 2 weeks to actually write this session, sigh. I just couldnt work up the energy to do it, something that rarely happens with me and D&D. I am going to see how tomorrow goes.

I wanted to clarify a few things. Now I have had time to cool off, I think I can explain myself better.

I am not mad that they arnt memorizing my player guide/lore. I would never expect them to. It is, however, clearly itemized and I refer to it often. I got upset mostly because the player who asked about the gods could have solved his own problem by just glancing at the guide and/or popping open the PHB.

My main issue is the lack of understanding of game rules. Yeah, 2 weeks was a bit short to know exactly what to do, but I was very clear before session 0, and then again before session 1 (a total of 4 weeks, not 2) that its more or less the same as 5e, but Combat, Skills and to a lesser extent, Spells are all very different and they needed to read over those chapters. I said I would be able to help in the first few encounters but as things ramped up, i would have my own problems and cant afford to be babysitting them through dice rolling while also trying to figure out my own options. And yet they have not done that.

Session 0, I made it explicitly clear that my games would be story driven (but not railroaded) and that they would be combat and mechanics heavy. In fact, i made that clear when I posted the advert with my university table top gaming society. They all responded to it and wanted to join. I gave plenty of time to back out. None did.

I just messaged them all. Last session they started at level 2, and I spent ages leveling them up because they hadnt bothered to try it themselves. I mentioned at the end that they were only a few hundred XP short of leveling to 3 and they should bring a prepared level up for this session. I said I would be happy to help before tomorrow, either in person or by FB, but that I cant afford the time to take a break and level up during the game itself.

Middle of this week I sent out a message - "Hey all, wanted to make sure everyone knows of the new venue, and see if everyone had leveled up ok/spent their gold." I just got all the replies back. All along the lines of "Oh, yeah, how much did we get again? How do I level up? We are doing it tomorrow right?"

I want to go because I want to see my session in action, see what they do, see where they go, see which of the paths they choose, or if they go off and do something else.

I dont want to go because I will spend all my time rolling dice for them, telling them what to do next and trying to tell them that alcoholic characters WILL incur penalties and isnt conducive to playing the game.

I will get high off their enjoyment, but I know that rather than going home and remembering all the good bits, Ill be left with Alulah forgetting she has barding on her dog again, so it didnt actually die, or Beorn trying to change direction mid way through a charge... again, or Archae thinking they have broken the game and are being sneaky and disruptive because they are putting a gold behind the bar which buys them lots and lots of ale, when in reality its just disruptive because it breaks the FLOW of the game, not the actual game... AGAIN. Maybe I will get lucky and only get Noah asking if he can use a feat from a banned book (or even a different system, yup, that happened) again.(Note, those are all character names, not real names).

Either I have a very different idea of what a "serious, combat based, story driven campaign" means, or else they straight up lied to me.

Oh, and the 6th player? The Paladin? He may or may not turn up. He just told me 5 minutes ago. Doesnt know if he can make it but hopes he can. Turns out adding a 6th level 3 character to a party gives the party a VASTLY different power level, especially at this low op. So I have to get up early tomorrow and write a SECOND encounter list which wont kill the party flat out. Just in case he doesnt turn up. Oh, and adjust the loot. And parts of the story. But I cant just turn round and ban him because he is a friend of one of the other players who asked me if he could join, and I thought I was getting a reliable person so I said yes.

Ok, signing off now, before I get worked up again. Wish me luck! Or a Terrasque. At least then I get to end it.

[Darth Ultron]

My main issue is the lack of understanding of game rules.

It's a lot of work, but you can help them out. It....might..pay off in the long run, and..might..be worth it.

First off print off all the rules they might need for quick reference. Luckily, this is 2016 so you can do this easy. And it does seem like your players might really need pictures of their characters. You should be able to find some online...or even better draw some yourself. Sally won't forget that the dog has barding on when she is looking at a picture of that all the time....(maybe...)

Then make a individual quick reference for each character too, tailored to each player. The rules in the book might be too ''odd'' for some people to understand....so re-writing them to be a bit more ''friendly'' might be a big help.

This....might..solve some rule problems.

You also might want to re-write the mechanics of your adventure. Don't just toss everything at them at once. You might want to do more ''learn to play'' type adventures, not full blown normal adventures. It will be a huge, slow and boring, burden on you...but it...might...be worth it. For example you might do the ''learn about grapple'' encounter where the goblins grapple the characters..a lot. Have them all get grappled and so forth over and over and over again..... It's possible that after an hour or two they might ''get it''.....

[GilesTheCleric]

So I have to get up early tomorrow and write a SECOND encounter list which wont kill the party flat out.

Maybe this doesn't fit your GM style (it sounds like you do a lot of prep work, which I admire), but I think my GM style solves this problem a little. Rather than spending a lot of time on encounters, I spend time on the maps and the types of enemies on those maps. I don't usually determine exactly how many or how powerful each of those creatures are until it's time to roll initiative.

Instead (I play on roll 20, so prep is easier in some ways than it is on tabletop), I just leave a whole pile of tokens hidden on the "GM layer", and switch them to the "player vision layer" and when it's time to fight, I only reveal as many as I think I'll need. I'm not going to share the stats with the players (beyond which monsters are bloodied or in critical condition), so I can easily buff or nerf the encounter halfway through by just adding +/-2 or +/-4 to-hit and to damage on melee brutes, or step up/ down the op level on casters (eg. go from using magic missile to fog+fireball, or from magic missile to shocking grasp). I hide the rolls and modifiers, so it's never noticeable to the players.

In terms of loot and xp, I don't even bother with it mid-session. I'll tell them that they've found eg. 2014 gp, 370 sp, and 8999 cp, and a whole pile of gems, art objects, and scrolls, and they get that list posted to facebook/ the message board after the session. I don't actually know what is in that pile until I calculate it afterwards. Same with xp. All level-ups are done out-of-game, even if they get would have gotten enough to level during the session -- I award it all at the end of the session. Ain't nobody got time for dat.

They also do shopping outside of the session, unless it's something special or quest-related that they need to roleplay.

[Solaris]

Yes.

You are not trying to play a game; you are trying to tell a story.

The proper medium for that is writing. I encourage you to check out places like RoyalRoad and FictionGrill, where new writers are breaking into the craft. I also recommend Critters on-line critique group once you get serious.

So learn to weave your world-building into character development, learn to lay out your plots through character's personalities and interactions, and write a novel.

Also, you can run a game on the side for kicks, because why not? Once your artistic energies are directed towards something more rewarding, you'll find the game a lot more fun.

This is a non sequitur. Simply because he enjoys world-building does not mean he's making a novel. Gaming is telling a story cooperatively - nothing we've read here suggests that Albions_Angel is trying to tell the story unilaterally as an author does. Railroading is bad, yes, and something to be guarded against, but worldbuilding has as much to do with railroading as oranges have to do with tax returns. Just because someone eats an orange doesn't make them an IRS agent.

Personally, I'd kill to have a DM who put any kind of effort at integrating their games into a published campaign setting, much less worked out one of their own.

[Syll]

I'm terribly sorry your campaign has progressed this way.

Even as a player I find it maddeningly frustrating showing a fellow player how to shoot his longbow Every. Single. Round. Why do I have -your- bonuses and feats and saves memorized??... hypothetically speaking, of course.

Having to do it for every player there would probably result in a cosmic, world ending meteor.

[Crake]

~snip~

Honestly, as I said in my first post, act as a crutch for them and they will use you as a crutch. If you want them to stop relying on you, when they ask "How do I level up" isntead of explaining it to them say "It's in the phb". When you ask them for a roll, and they don't add their modifier, just take their unmodified roll and go with it. Trial by fire. My main question is this: Do they engage with the story? Do they move things forward when rules aren't an issue? I've found rules can be taught (or over time just slowly ingrained in their understanding of the game), but active player engagement with stories and NPCs are much harder to come across, and far harder to teach.

[Chauncymancer]

That is most emphatically not reasonable. That's equivalent to forgetting ..."the mouse makes the pointer move"...
My friend, if you have never worked in tech support, I suggest for your own sanity that you never do. Some people are only ever going to be able to play RPGs (or use computers) if someone stands over their shoulder their entire life translating their intention into action. I've met a few players who were more than adequate at making decisions in their characters style, talking with their voice, etc, but we had to play the game in the form of "You tell me what you want to do, I'll roll all the dice, I've already written down your character's stats in my notes."
Some players think that RPGs should work like board games. You show up, the game starts, you play the game, it ends, you don't do anything with it until the next game night. Sometimes I've heard this called Beer-and-Pretzels Gaming. I've had perfectly acceptable games with these people: The worlds a little simpler, the tactical space is a little more straightforward, and I run things more on the rule of cool and montages. It's not how I'd like to run every game (Burning Wheel, FATE, and a few other games are just off the table because no one wants to play them as games on a level that's actually fun) but it's fine for say a Dungeon World Open-Table game.

[Yahzi]

November is also national novel writing month (http://nanowrimo.org/forums) and lots of people write about their D&D campaigns.
Some people even publish them. :smallbiggrin:

(Or at least the ones they wished they'd run, if only they'd had the right players.)

[Fizban]

My friend, if you have never worked in tech support, I suggest for your own sanity that you never do.
Waaay ahead of you. Bunch of people at work are all like "Hey, I'm gonna quit this crappy job and go work at the call center!" and I'm like "hahahaha no." A year or two later they've gone mad, then the call center closes. Granted, not exactly sure what the call center did, but tech support is the least terrible of the options and I know full well I'm not a teacher or a troubleshooter. I give one explanation and that's it.

[Sacrieur]

I mean, then why DM?

[2D8HP]

So, I am having trouble with my players. All new to 3.5, all fairly inexperienced with 5e and D&D in general, they nevertheless signed up to join my campaign. I sent them everything they neededOK sounds like a good start.

Am I unique now in thinking it a good idea to actually start a game knowing a little about the world as though I grew up there? Unusual? Unfortunately not.

They dont read anything, they make no attemptYour surprised?
wrote a fairly compact players guide to my world, including character creation and world background, house rules, geography and, most importantly for tonights rant, the pantheon of both the country they are playing in (a custom pantheon), and the rest of the world (listed where to find information on the gods).Geography and Pantheon? That hardly sounds compact, and actually sounds detrimental to the experience.

My main issue is the lack of understanding of game rules.Yeah that can be problematic, they're so many of them and......
Oh!
You mean the players??!!
When I started playing DnD the players weren't supposed to know all the rules:You are a DM aren't you? Because
As this book is the exclusive precinct of the DM, you must view any non-DM player possessing it as something less than worthy of honorable death.

OK, I think I perceive the problem. The "players" want to have fun exploring during play the fantastic world you created, whilst you want them to play act inhabitants from the start.
Just stop that. It is contrary to how the most gloriously fun game ever created was originally played.
But by Grabthar's hammer, by the suns of Worvan, we can fix it!


The first version of what became D&D was the rules system inside Dave Arneson's mind.

The rules are there because players want some idea of what the odds are first, and it's easier to choose from a catalog than write on a blank page.

When D&D started there was no mention of role-playing on the box!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/SfSTvUzCu4I/AAAAAAAAA9A/9bUyti9YmUk/s320/box1st.jpg
While the 1977 Basic set did indeed say "FANTASY ROLE-PLAYING GAME"
http://i2.wp.com/shaneplays.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/dungeons_and_dragons_dd_basic_set_1stedition_origi nal_box_holmes_edition.jpg?zoom=4&resize=312%2C386
The phrase "role-playing" was not part of the 1974 rules.
http://i2.wp.com/shaneplays.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/original_dungeons_and_dragons_dd_men_and_magic_cov er.jpg?zoom=4&resize=312%2C494
Notice that the cover says "Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames", not role-playing!
I believe the first use of the term "role-playing game" was in a Tunnels & Trolls supplement that was "compatible with other Fantasy role-playing games", but early D&D didn't seem any more or less combat focused than the later RPG's I've played, (in fact considering how fragile PC''s were avoiding combat was often the goal!) so I wouldn't say it was anymore of a "Wargame". I would however say it was more an exploration game, and was less character focused.
Frankly while role-playing is alright, it's the 'enjoying a "world" where the fantastic is fact' part that is much more interesting to me.

These rules are strictly fantasy. Those wargamers who lack imagination, those who don't care for Burroughs'
Martian adventures where John Carter is groping through black pits, who feel no thrill upon reading Howard's Conan saga, who do not enjoy the de Camp & Pratt fantasies or Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser
pitting their swords against evil sorceries will not be likely to find Dungeons & Dragons to their taste. But those whose imaginations know no bounds will find that these rules are the answer to their prayers. With this last
bit of advice we invite you to read on and enjoy a "world" where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!
E. Gary Gygax
Tactical Studies Rules Editor
1 November 1973
Lake Geneva, WisconsinWhile I'm ever grateful to Holmes for his work translating the game rules into English, perhaps he (an academic psychologist) is to be blamed for mis-labelling D&D with the abominable slander of "role-playing" (a psychological treatment technique).
It's too late now to correct the misnomer, but D&D is, was, and should be a fantasy adventure game, not role-playing, a label no good has come from!

“If I want to do that,” he said, “I’ll join an amateur theater group.” (see here (http://www.believermag.com/issues/200609/?read=article_lafarge)).
While Dave Arneson later had the innovation of having his players "roll up" characters, for his "homebrew" of Chainmail:
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2016/04/the-original-dungeon-masters/

At first the players played themselves in a Fantastic medievalish world:
http://swordsandstitchery.blogspot.com/2016/10/in-celebrate-of-dave-arnesons-birthday.html?m=1

So a wargame was made into a setting exploration game, and then was later labelled a "role-playing" game.
While it's still possible to play D&D as the wargame it once was, I'm glad that the game escaped the "wargame" appellation, which makes the game more attractive to those of us with 'less of an interest in tactics, however I argue (to beat a dead horse), that the labeling of D&D as a role-playing game is hurtful ("Your not role-playing, your roll-playing! etc.).
Just label D&D an adventure game, and people can be spared all the hand-wringing, and insults when acting and writing talents don't measure up to "role-playing" standards, and instead we can have fun exploring a fantastic world together.
Please?

Start with some basics, explain verbally that Dungeons & Dragons is a table-top adventure game in which you control the action attempts of adventurers exploring a fantastic world.

Tell them the DM describes a scene.

Players say what actions their PC attempts.

DM makes up a percentage chance of success.

Player rolls dice.

Then the DM narrates the results.

That's the game.

You will be the eyes and ears of the PC's.
Tell the players what their PC's perceive including what the PC's think the odds are. Ask them what the actions of the PC'S are like this:
"Fafhrd (use the PC's name, not the players name, this is to help immersion) you see the Witch King approach what do you do?".

Further explain that the PC's whose action attempts the players control have hit points, and when the PC's suffer damage, the PC's lose hit points. When the PC's have no hit points left, their PC's die. Stress this.
Then explain ability scores.
Start with Strength. Explain that most people have average Strength of 10, and that one in a thousand are so strong that they have a Strength of 18, and that one in a thousand are so weak that they have a Strength of 3.
Explain the other "abilities" likewise.

Next the PC's backgrounds.
Somehow (Worldbuild a reason by Crom!) the PC's speak the language of the region the adventure starts in, but they come from somewhere else, "a small village", "the forest", :the Hall of the Mountain King", together you can add details later.

What gods do the PC's worship?
None.
They worship a goddess who goes by many names:
Tyche, Fortuna, Dame Fortune, The "Lady" (luck). Her holy symbol is dice used as a necklace, and her worshippers hymn is "please, oh please, oh please! ".

Introduce the rest of the Pantheon in play, through what the PC's see and hear. Likewise the Geography.

What brings them to the adventure site?

Treasure!

I'd have to say that I would like to start the campaign In medias res, by the DM telling us something like:
“In the Year of the Behemoth, the Month of the Hedgehog, The Day of the Toad."

"Satisfied that they your near the goal of your quest, you think of how you had slit the interesting-looking vellum page from the ancient book on architecture that reposed in the library of the rapacious and overbearing Lord Rannarsh."

“It was a page of thick vellum, ancient and curiously greenish. Three edges were frayed and worn; the fourth showed a clean and recent cut. It was inscribed with the intricate hieroglyphs of Lankhmarian writing, done in the black ink of the squid. Reading":
"Let kings stack their treasure houses ceiling-high, and merchants burst their vaults with hoarded coin, and fools envy them. I have a treasure that outvalues theirs. A diamond as big as a man's skull. Twelve rubies each as big as the skull of a cat. Seventeen emeralds each as big as the skull of a mole. And certain rods of crystal and bars of orichalcum. Let Overlords swagger jewel-bedecked and queens load themselves with gems, and fools adore them. I have a treasure that will outlast theirs. A treasure house have I builded for it in the far southern forest, where the two hills hump double, like sleeping camels, a day's ride beyond the village of Soreev.

"A great treasure house with a high tower, fit for a king's dwelling—yet no king may dwell there. Immediately below the keystone of the chief dome my treasure lies hid, eternal as the glittering stars. It will outlast me and my name,"

100 years ago the sorcerer Zenopus built a tower on the low hills overlooking Portown. The tower was close to the sea cliffs west of the town and, appropriately, next door to the graveyard.
Rumor has it that the magician made extensive cellars and tunnels underneath the tower. The town is located on the ruins of a much older city of doubtful history and Zenopus was said to excavate in his cellars in search of ancient treasures.

Fifty years ago, on a cold wintry night, the wizard's tower was suddenly engulfed in green flame. Several of his human servants escaped the holocaust, saying their rnaster had been destroyed by some powerful force he had unleashed in the depths of the tower.
Needless to say the tower stood vacant fora while afterthis, but then the neighbors and the night watchmen comploined that ghostly blue lights appeared in the windows at night, that ghastly screams could be heard emanating from the tower ot all hours, and goblin figures could be seen dancina on the tower roof in the moonlight. Finally the authorities had a catapult rolled through the streets of the town and the tower was battered to rubble. This stopped the hauntings but the townsfolk continue to shun the ruins. The entrance to the old dungeons can be easily located as a flight of broad stone steps leading down into darkness, but the few adventurous souls who hove descended into crypts below the ruin have either reported only empty stone corridors or have failed to return at all.
Other magic-users have moved into the town but the site of the old tower remains abandoned.
Whispered tales are told of fabulous treasure and unspeakable monsters in the underground passages below the hilltop, and the story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of the older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.
Portown is a small but busy city 'linking the caravan routes from the south to the merchant ships that dare the pirate-infested waters of the Northern Sea. Humans and non-humans from all over the globe meet here.
At he Green Dragon Inn, the players of the game gather their characters for an assault on the fabulous passages beneath the ruined Wizard's tower.

:smile:



To avoid "railroading" don't drop the PC's into a situation that is lame with their having no choice in the matter, whereas in treasure seeking examples, the DM has dropped the PC's into a situation that is AWESOME! so of course the players would choose it.

Don't forget to have someone say:

"When do we get there?"
"Real soon!"

"Demon Dogs!"

"What is best in life?

"This goes to eleven".

"What about you centurion, do you think there's anything funny?"

"A shrubbery!"

:wink:

Your welcome.

[RazorChain]

I'm going to share my story. I have been Gming for 27 years and because I moved between countries I had to leave my group which I have been playing with for 18 years behind.

Through a facebook page centered on RPG I managed to round up 5 players of which of 3 had never played before and 2 were wet behind the ears and had played less than a year. Suddenly I felt old, some of them weren't even a twinkle in their fathers eye when I started playing.


First we met over a cup of coffee and discussed what we wanted to play. I sent them short background info around a a page long including an adventure primer that started the campaign. I explained the rules in simplest term possible (like you roll a d20 and add some numbers).

Then I peppered them constantly for a short character background and voila suddenly we had a magically talented smuggler's son whose twin sister was missing (Rouge/Wizard). A silver tounged merchant son whose family caravans where constantly being raided (Bard). An elven shield maiden raised by foster parents that joined a mercenary band while looking for her real father (fighter). An monster slayer that vowed to protect humanity, taken in by a monestary after his family was killed by monsters (Monk) and an avenging assassin that was half mad after being tortured for heresy and was going after his enemies punisher style.

So when we met up for session 0 we just met, rolled up characters where I helped them with all the rules and we were ready to rock in session 1. No hefty background reading just action, intrigue and adventure.

I made a cheat sheet for combat/skill rules for the players and now 15 sessions later they have gone through rather complicated storylines and are starting to master combat and turning out to be a nice bunch to play a game with. Granted I've shown them a lot of patience and explained certain rules a time and again but they have given me so much in return: The youthful exuberance of new players discovering this great hobby, and it's so fun watch how they react so differently and more realistically to encounter and events than my old "jaded" veteran group.

I help them by keeping a campaign journal and cast of characters so they are always up to date. By keeping them engaged in what is happening in game, they often go back to the campaign journal to puzzle things togehter as I run rather complicated games and they love finding the clues I've left for them to discover. Of course I sneak in background information and small pieces of fluff into the journal and especially cast of characters where I include local legends and rumours about the people the meet and interact with.

So what I'm coming to is give them time and patience. Great players aren't born they are forged in the great crucible of adventure.

[2D8HP]

I'm going to share ....
.Can you be my DM?
Please?

[RazorChain]

Can you be my DM?
Please?

I actually have a spot at my table but unluckily I am in Norway :)

[Manyasone]

-snip-

I have this whole Gandalf vibe coming from you now :smallsmile:
How did you do a search on Facebook for this? I'm interested for my own DM reasons

[Mordaedil]

I actually have a spot at my table but unluckily I am in Norway :)

Oh, a fellow Norwegian? Where in Norway do you live?

[2D8HP]

Session 0, I made it explicitly clear that my games would be story driven (but not railroaded) and that they would be combat and mechanics heavy.*
Both?
I got upset mostly because the player who asked about the gods could have solved his own problem by just glancing at the guide and/or popping open the PHB.
I want to go because I want to see my session in action, see what they do, see where they go, see which of the paths they choose, or if they go off and do something else.

I dont want to go because I will spend all my time rolling dice for them, telling them what to do next and trying to tell them that alcoholic characters WILL incur penalties and isnt conducive to playing the gameSo your hoping for the players to have rules knowledge, setting knowledge, and for them to decide on actions that it makes sense for their characters to do? Brother, in my experience your lucky if you get just one item on your wishlist.
Something that has bewildered me, is that so many DM's are suprised by, and voice complaints that their players either don't roleplay, and just treat their PC's as a collection of "stats", or that they instead are ignorant of what the "stats" on the character sheet mean.
Get over it guys, new players are especially unlikely to [I][B]both decide on PC actions based on role-playing instead of mechanical advantages, and to be able to spit out the information based on rules minutiae (the PC's don't know what a "saving throw" is). If you as the DM of the game can't be bothered to handle the modifiers either, than don't be surprised if the players don't, or that you get "rules lawyered".
Decide which you want, a game that's more "roleplaying", or more like a traditional rules heavy wargame, and stress that, and truthfully tell the players which you emphasis. If you want both heavy "roleplaying", and deep rules knowledge, you'll likely get neither (and for brand new players don't expect the players to have expert rules knowledge and do "in-character" based actions ever).
If you do ever get a player who both roleplays and knows the rules well, then please take them under your wing, and mentor them into being a DM.
Thanks

[RazorChain]

I have this whole Gandalf vibe coming from you now :smallsmile:
How did you do a search on Facebook for this? I'm interested for my own DM reasons

Well the roleplaying community in Norway was smart enough to make a facebook group which today has over 2000 members and is growing. This makes it much easier to recruit players and put together groups, you just post an ad.





Oh, a fellow Norwegian? Where in Norway do you live?

Actually I'm Icelandic and living in Drammen :)

[Mordaedil]

Actually I'm Icelandic and living in Drammen :)
Neat, I live across the fjord to the east, in Drøbak.

Sadly, that's just a little too far out for me. ;(


Well the roleplaying community in Norway was smart enough to make a facebook group which today has over 2000 members and is growing. This makes it much easier to recruit players and put together groups, you just post an ad.
I didn't realize there was a use to facebook. Still a little anxious about joining such a thing though.

[GreyBlack]

Before I tell you the DM perspective here, let me just give you my perspective as a player. Honestly, I _hate_ when the DM gives me a textbook to memorize for the campaign. Honestly, if there isn't a direct bearing on the story, my character wouldn't memorize the full history of the Archduke of Nowhere's 3rd cousin's nickname. Even when it comes to the pantheon, it probably won't make a lick of difference to the average NPC or PC, except in cases like clerics or wizards.

However, as a DM? I still don't just hand out world building packets. There is no way that a non-formalized educational system in a Feudal to Renaissance society would ever be able to educate poor farm boys in the kingdom. For characters who might have studied history, if there's an important detail of world building they need to know, I let them make the Knowledge (History) check to see if they would know it.

However, just because the PCs wouldn't know it doesn't mean that you, the DM, shouldn't. Keeping a timeline or brief world history in front of you might help you to let players in on important facts about the world, and letting them figure stuff out on their own will help their immersion in the world.

It's the Dark Souls approach. Let your players interact with the world however they want, don't force them to interact how you want them to.

EDIT TO ADD: As to your complaint about players nor bothering to learn the rules of the game, I recommend letting them, again, learn through experience. If they want to do an action, tell them to make a skill check. If they ask how, just ask them what the rulebook says. This will force them to interface with the rules and more accurately integrate how the rules work into their frame of reference.

For example: They state they're making an attack. If they ask how, just ask them what the book says. They will learn faster that way when they realize that they can self- educate.

[RazorChain]

Neat, I live across the fjord to the east, in Drøbak.

Sadly, that's just a little too far out for me. ;(


I didn't realize there was a use to facebook. Still a little anxious about joining such a thing though.


Actullay it's a nice group where people talk about RPG related things and look for people to play with, so social media in this case is a boon. Last time I was looking for a group in Norway (in 2001) I had to respond to a flier in a gaming store in Oslo.

When you decide to join here is the link :) If you don't like it then you can always quit it

https://www.facebook.com/groups/rollespill.info/

[Jader7777]

I've played in Pathfinder adventure paths where the player's guide specifically states 'Bring cold iron weapons'. Of course I'm the only player at the table who read the guide and brought a cold iron weapon so basically we have to free-action pass the weapon between everyone to hit the demon/fey/whatever.

[Manyasone]

I've played in Pathfinder adventure paths where the player's guide specifically states 'Bring cold iron weapons'. Of course I'm the only player at the table who read the guide and brought a cold iron weapon so basically we have to free-action pass the weapon between everyone to hit the demon/fey/whatever.

Free action pass? Lenient DM...I'd let my players sweat it out. The AP player guides are there for a reason. If you agree to play a Paizo AP or a third party AP with a player guide you agree to immerse yourself in that story, not complain that it isn't a sandbox or that you are being railroaded. In an AP, railroads will sometimes happen, it's inevitable. Don't like that, look for a sandbox game. It's called a "Gentleman's Agreement" where I come from