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Esprit15
2016-11-10, 07:50 PM
Slight background: I'm playing a CE Dread Necromancer in a game with some friends. Said necromancer has goals of eventual goals of demilichdom. They don't hide their skills from the party (we travel via a covered wagon that is pulled by a skeletal cryohydra I reanimated and the bone orc frenzied berserker is the second biggest damage dealer of the party) and I'm our primary knower of magical lore.

In our travels we have found several obviously plot device gems with souls trapped in them. I've hidden the first one from the party, planning to use it as one of my gems when I eventually change. We found another one, and this time our resident exalted character asked where the other was, since if there is a soul trapped in it, it ought to be released. The party mentioned that I had it, and at this point my character is basically being forced at swordpoint to hand it over to the authorities that we are working for.

I've basically found myself in the dilemma when playing an Evil character where it has become IC to kill the rest of the party and run away skipping, or slipping away in the middle of the night and retiring the character. I plan to discuss this with the DM. If it helps, the exalted character's player has earlier mentioned OOC that he would be surprised if one of us didn't kill the other, and acknowledged that the one who goes first in a fight almost certainly will win.

Strigon
2016-11-10, 08:05 PM
The correct response here is to find some justification for handing it over. Maybe you can rationalize it as saying that if you stick with the party you'll likely find more, or maybe you realize having these people on your side if you ever make it to your goals will be handy.

But the point is, when you have to either act out of character, or against your group, you act out of character. You made the character, it's your responsibility to make sure he works with the group.

Geddy2112
2016-11-10, 08:13 PM
But the point is, when you have to either act out of character, or against your group, you act out of character. You made the character, it's your responsibility to make sure he works with the group.

This.

It equally applies to the exalted in the party. You both knowingly made characters that were likely to butt heads. It is everyone's responsibility to work with the group, and that applies to character creation too. In most circumstances, whenever somebody says "I am just doing what my character would do" or "but it is in character to do X" it is an attempt to justify hijacking or otherwise breaking the fundamental aspect of the game, which is working together.

That said, I think that characters likely to butt heads and have friction can be interesting and lead to good roleplay, but if it leads to PvP it is probably best avoided. Unless of course you are playing a system like Paranoia, where PvP is the whole point.

Gastronomie
2016-11-10, 08:17 PM
Talk out-of-character with the Exalted player and come to a conclusion on how to role-play without becoming PvP. It should be not very difficult with the right cooperation, and perhaps some fudging by the DM.

Esprit15
2016-11-10, 08:33 PM
The correct response here is to find some justification for handing it over. Maybe you can rationalize it as saying that if you stick with the party you'll likely find more, or maybe you realize having these people on your side if you ever make it to your goals will be handy.

But the point is, when you have to either act out of character, or against your group, you act out of character. You made the character, it's your responsibility to make sure he works with the group.

Finding the second one is what prompted him to ask where mine was. Giving one over means giving all future ones over as well.

lightningcat
2016-11-10, 08:58 PM
Are these things dangerous if gathered together, or might they be? If so, then you can justify not handing them all over to any one person or group in order to keep them seperated. Same logic the Marvel movies are using to keep the Infinity Gems in diferent hands. Otherwise, you can claim a reasonable fear of them being stolen from the other group.

Esprit15
2016-11-10, 09:16 PM
Are these things dangerous if gathered together, or might they be? If so, then you can justify not handing them all over to any one person or group in order to keep them seperated. Same logic the Marvel movies are using to keep the Infinity Gems in diferent hands. Otherwise, you can claim a reasonable fear of them being stolen from the other group.

Nothing suggests that they are.

At this point I have been walking around for about a month with one of them hidden inside me to no ill effects.

MrStabby
2016-11-10, 09:26 PM
Can you create a dummy gem and hand it over/swap with the first?

Both players IC obligations to keeping in character are met and there is something fun left in store for future plot.

Deophaun
2016-11-10, 09:52 PM
You are a long, long way off from demilichdom. In fact... you are 21 wizard, sorcerer, or cleric levels away. But, let's say that requirement has been waved. Still, not worth it to endanger yourself for something so far in the future: you thought you found an easy path, but it turned out to be more treacherous than you thought. You are going to be lich, you have plenty of time to find another.

But, that said, the gems won't help you anyway:

Each demilich must make its own soul gems, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat.

TheCountAlucard
2016-11-10, 09:56 PM
How is an Exalted PC (I'm assuming you mean as in "I'm so good, I took feats or PrCs from the Book of Exalted Deeds" Exalted, as opposed to a hero from a different RPG, empowered directly by the Celestial Incarnae or Elemental Dragons - if it's the latter it becomes a whole different issue) adventuring with an openly-evil, openly-Evil PC in the first place, without falling from his lofty status?

Esprit15
2016-11-10, 10:26 PM
You are a long, long way off from demilichdom. In fact... you are 21 wizard, sorcerer, or cleric levels away. But, let's say that requirement has been waved. Still, not worth it to endanger yourself for something so far in the future: you thought you found an easy path, but it turned out to be more treacherous than you thought. You are going to be lich, you have plenty of time to find another.

But, that said, the gems won't help you anyway:

The DM, like me, found the class requirements silly, especially given that the template was printed before Dread Necromancer even existed as a class.

And I talked over it with the DM: the gems would likely meet the financial component of the soul gems, with the EXP component paid being the character rewriting the magic in them. It's more of them making a financial investment for the future, and until this point has not been a dangerous undertaking.

As for why he hasn't fallen, I imagine he's planning how to kill me, but at this point which of us kills the other would come down to initiative, which is why he hasn't. He's also made it difficult to animate any new dead since joining. I'm open about being a necromancer, but not about being Evil. Undetectable Alignment cast every morning, plus refraining from slaughtering commoners for easy shadows and ghouls has been straining them, but that's stuff they have already conceded, for peace within the group.

Koo Rehtorb
2016-11-10, 10:58 PM
Perhaps this is your clue that your character does not fit with the rest of the party and it's time for him to walk away and retire.

TheCountAlucard
2016-11-11, 04:05 AM
So, you're saying that not only is he associating with an obviously-evil character, but he's premeditating a betrayal and a murder on top of that?

Yeah, that's grounds for losing one's Exalted feats. Are you sure he's not putting everyone over on this whole "Exalted" thing?

Khedrac
2016-11-11, 06:34 AM
As for the soul-containing gem, the one thing you don't want as one of your gems for your own transfiguration is one with a soul in it.

Therefore, it is very reasonable of your character to hand the gem over saying something like "sure, I agree that the soul probably needs to be freed, but I want the gem back when it is empty" (note - the soul may have been trapped for a very Good reason).

Esprit15
2016-11-11, 07:19 AM
OOC, I know what was trapped in the gem, since the DM discussed several aspects of the story with me, him being new to D&D and all. Hopefully it can be allowed to pass into its afterlife fairly easily, rather than growing a body upon being released and ruining our day (though on the other hand, undead pet if we kill it).

However, that's also a reasonable compromise, assuming the gem isn't ruined if and when it is freed. I'll mention that. Thanks!

Segev
2016-11-11, 10:09 AM
You probably don't need a gem with a soul already inside it for your transformation. The fact that it's suitable to trap a soul is good enough. Release the soul and ask for the gem back. (There are spells for restoring broken things to wholeness.)

Playing evil doesn't mean playing short-term selfish. You're with these goody-two-shoes adventurers for a reason. Has that reason changed? If not, give over the gem, but get concessions for doing so. If you can, make them "small" concessions, the kind that are based around "Hey, remember how you insisted I give up that gem? You owe me on this one..." can be very useful, as long as you don't try to get the good guy to do something he finds morally objectionable (rather than merely unpleasant).

Quertus
2016-11-11, 10:55 AM
Well, you've already found your solution, and I agree with the method: don't compromise your character, find the solution that works and is in character.

Although you may want to talk to the "exalted" guy at some point, either IC or OOC, about how you want the game to go forward. Or have both of you make new characters.

Hawkstar
2016-11-11, 12:13 PM
So, you're saying that not only is he associating with an obviously-evil character, but he's premeditating a betrayal and a murder on top of that?

Yeah, that's grounds for losing one's Exalted feats. Are you sure he's not putting everyone over on this whole "Exalted" thing?

Killing Evil for trying to commit evil is neither betrayal nor murder. Exalted characters are not prohibited from planning on how to kill villains.

Airk
2016-11-11, 01:21 PM
This might be a good time to re-read http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html, specifically the second part.

Avalander
2016-11-11, 01:22 PM
I don't remember all the quirks of D&D's moral system (and I guess it's different depending on the version) and it's on the OP's table to decide what is evil and what is exalted, but I'm honestly also having trouble understanding why the exalted guy hasn't fallen yet.

I mean, exalted characters should excel in virtues like compassion, honour and forgiveness beyond most good-aligned creatures (which is not hard at all by D&D standards, by the way). Willingly associating with somebody with questionable behaviours* and, at some point, killing them "because yeah, dude, what he tried to do was totally evil" is definitely not what I would expect from an exalted character.

If he is associating with people known to be evil, that is a reason to fall. If he's not aware that the necromancer's character is evil, plotting to kill him because of differences in opinions sounds like betrayal and murder to me (also, his character does not understand enough about good and evil to be exalted anyway).

* Necromancy is inherently evil in D&D. Anybody with the slightest bit of a moral compass should be able to tell the OP's character true alignment, with or without Undetectable Alignment on.

Of course, all this depends on how much their table overrides the default moral system of D&D.

Esprit15
2016-11-11, 02:15 PM
The exalted character is a VoP barbarian type of guy (Human Werelion/Barbarian/Fist of the Forest/Warshaper/Primeval). I'm not the DM, but I imagine there's something along the lines of "Maybe this person can be redeemed," especially since I haven't created any new undead, and allow him to bury corpses that we find, rather than requesting any of them for necromantic purposes. While I clearly have done so in the past, him being around has kept me on a leash, and so probably meets the DM's requirements for the title.

Honestly, I'm spitballing at his motives and goals. The player and I haven't met for too long since the issue came up to discuss things. It sounds like he may be retiring the guy though, between the DM being unable to even harm him significantly, and the possible conflict that can arise from a character who is supposed to be doubleplusgood while the rest of the party is neutral at best.

Stealth Marmot
2016-11-11, 03:54 PM
Slight background: I'm playing a CE Dread Necromancer in a game with some friends.... They don't hide their skills from the party ... our resident exalted character....

STOP.

Just stop.

Avalander
2016-11-11, 03:56 PM
Yeah, we are mostly guessing about the exalted character and it's beyond the point of the thread anyway, so never mind.

KillianHawkeye
2016-11-11, 05:54 PM
At this point I have been walking around for about a month with one of them hidden inside me to no ill effects.

It's probably good enough for your character at this point that he's had a whole month already to study this soul gem in his spare time and figure out how it works and how it might be replicated. You've already taken your first small step towards demilichdom just by learning about it.

The point is, you probably don't need to keep the original in order to make your own in the future.

Kelb_Panthera
2016-11-11, 07:17 PM
How is an Exalted PC (I'm assuming you mean as in "I'm so good, I took feats or PrCs from the Book of Exalted Deeds" Exalted, as opposed to a hero from a different RPG, empowered directly by the Celestial Incarnae or Elemental Dragons - if it's the latter it becomes a whole different issue) adventuring with an openly-evil, openly-Evil PC in the first place, without falling from his lofty status?

Common misconception; the associates clause of the paladin's code in the 3.5 phb is a separate clause from the code of conduct. It prohibits a paladin from accepting evil cohorts and followers when leadership or similar is taken by the character, nothing more.

That's not actually relevant to the OP's circumstance though, since the exalted character is actually a barbarian and the behavior outlined by chapter one of BoED never says anything about exalted characters being -forbidden- from interacting or associating with evil characters. It has several whole segments relating to attempting to redeem evil characters which, necessarily, requires associating with them.


So, you're saying that not only is he associating with an obviously-evil character, but he's premeditating a betrayal and a murder on top of that?

Yeah, that's grounds for losing one's Exalted feats. Are you sure he's not putting everyone over on this whole "Exalted" thing?

Alternately, he's looking for an opportunity to show his ally the error of the ways of evil and redeem him at some point. That's what I'd be doing.

To the OP;

Just hand over the gem. You've got -plenty- of time to collect some more -unoccupeid- gems to prepare for your demilichdom. You can, of course, warn the exalted barbarian that what's contained in the gem is extremely dangerous and should remain contained until you can secure significant enough force to avoid it being loosed on the world, either by killing it outright or sealing it in a more humane container where it can age and die (if it does those things) in its natural course. Provided you have that information in character, of course.

hamishspence
2016-11-12, 01:30 PM
* Necromancy is inherently evil in D&D. Anybody with the slightest bit of a moral compass should be able to tell the OP's character true alignment, with or without Undetectable Alignment on.

It's compatible with a Neutral alignment - and the Dread Necromancer class allows for Neutral characters. Thus, if the Evil character is good at feigning Neutrality, their Necromancy may not be enough in itself for fellow PCs to deduce their alignment.

CharonsHelper
2016-11-12, 02:05 PM
I'm playing a CE Dread Necromancer in a game with some friends. Said necromancer has goals of eventual goals of demilichdom.

This was your first mistake.

CE is almost always a bad decision.

D&D is a team game - and even evil characters should have a good reason to stick with the team - while it sounds like you're playing a wizardly version of The Joker.

Quertus
2016-11-12, 02:18 PM
It's compatible with a Neutral alignment - and the Dread Necromancer class allows for Neutral characters. Thus, if the Evil character is good at feigning Neutrality, their Necromancy may not be enough in itself for fellow PCs to deduce their alignment.

Necromancy can be good, evil, or neutral. Unfortunately, animating the dead is [evil]. Although, yes, there are still a few DMs left enlightened enough to realize that a neutral character can cast an [evil] spell without instantly turning to the dark side.


Common misconception; the associates clause of the paladin's code in the 3.5 phb is a separate clause from the code of conduct. It prohibits a paladin from accepting evil cohorts and followers when leadership or similar is taken by the character, nothing more.

That's not actually relevant to the OP's circumstance though, since the exalted character is actually a barbarian and the behavior outlined by chapter one of BoED never says anything about exalted characters being -forbidden- from interacting or associating with evil characters. It has several whole segments relating to attempting to redeem evil characters which, necessarily, requires associating with them.



Alternately, he's looking for an opportunity to show his ally the error of the ways of evil and redeem him at some point. That's what I'd be doing.

To the OP;

Just hand over the gem. You've got -plenty- of time to collect some more -unoccupeid- gems to prepare for your demilichdom. You can, of course, warn the exalted barbarian that what's contained in the gem is extremely dangerous and should remain contained until you can secure significant enough force to avoid it being loosed on the world, either by killing it outright or sealing it in a more humane container where it can age and die (if it does those things) in its natural course. Provided you have that information in character, of course.

Something, something, physician heal the sick something something.

Honestly, a Paladin ought to catch flack for not associating with... disreputable sorts. What excuse could an exalted possibly have for not trying to save someone's soul?

Honest Tiefling
2016-11-12, 05:46 PM
Honestly, I'm spitballing at his motives and goals. The player and I haven't met for too long since the issue came up to discuss things. It sounds like he may be retiring the guy though, between the DM being unable to even harm him significantly, and the possible conflict that can arise from a character who is supposed to be doubleplusgood while the rest of the party is neutral at best.

While I am all for morally grey themes and heroes working with villians, I think that maybe this party isn't going to work without some sort of DM fiat for why he wouldn't just smite you. (As for your PC killing them, are they the blindly vindictive kind who will put aside months of progress to get revenge, or are they the kind who will pursue power at any cost, even minor slights to their pride that will surely be inconsequential once they have achieved said power?) The only DM fiat I could think of would smack so badly of deus ex machina, that I wouldn't even bother with it.

Make a sweet evil barbarian build. If he's competent at building and enjoys it, don't even bother with the whole build, just show him some interesting toys to play with. I am really suspecting that this party just isn't very functional as-is and you might not be the only problem for an exalted character.

Ask the DM if he would nicely give the player remaking their PC some nice story aspect to him that is NOT having another one of these soul gems: A nifty sword, some backstory elements, something.

Esprit15
2016-11-12, 06:37 PM
The necromancer is patient, but also doesn't just let opportunities go. Like I said, I think the compromise mentioned above will do, and we can move on from there.

The guy doesn't need help making characters. He's been playing since I was 1 year old, and DMs the other game I'm in, quite well. He doesn't need me trying to help him with anything as far as mechanics go.

EDIT: Chatted with him. Like I thought, he saw me quitting raising the dead as a sign that I could be redeemed, which is why he didn't instantly try to kill me. Both of us also actually enjoy the drama that a little PC conflict can offer. The game is boring if everyone is buddybuddy.

Kelb_Panthera
2016-11-12, 09:43 PM
The necromancer is patient, but also doesn't just let opportunities go. Like I said, I think the compromise mentioned above will do, and we can move on from there.

Don't think of it as letting an opportunity go (not actually sure what opportunity it presents since you have to craft your own soulgems), think of it as paying the cost of doing business with a powerful entity that you'd rather have as an ally than an enemy (for the time being.)


EDIT: Chatted with him. Like I thought, he saw me quitting raising the dead as a sign that I could be redeemed, which is why he didn't instantly try to kill me. Both of us also actually enjoy the drama that a little PC conflict can offer. The game is boring if everyone is buddybuddy.

Hah! Called it. Why is there no :smallsmug:? I guess this :smallamused: will have to do.

Esprit15
2016-11-13, 08:16 AM
Like I said, I'd basically be using them to pay part of the financial costs. Unless I'm supposed to conjure gems from nothing. Still, knowing what's in at least some of them, assuming something like Trap the Soul, all of them will likely only cover the costs of two Soul Gems. Besides, it's all stuff that would be postgame anyways, so I'm not too concerned about the precise mechanics of it. What matters is playing the long term thinking of someone who already knows what they want, and how they plan to go about it after hearing about these plot devices scattered around the plane. The only time I would expect to see this character as a demilich would be if they were the BBEG of a different game.

Yep, I showed him this thread when we chatted. He was absolutely bewildered at everyone calling shame on either party for playing Exalted and CE in the same party. Disagreement makes for interesting role play. Who knows, maybe he would find the right words to take the necromancer off their path toward lichdom. Also, like I said at the beginning, we both acknowledged that this could easily come to blows, and who kills the other if so basically comes down to rolling initiative. Either he pounced on me and likely makes it past my mount, or I trapped him in Acid Fog and then some other AoE spells with Fell Drain applied to them and he collapses dead after a few rounds.