Strength of 3.0 Monsters in 3.5

[Afgncaap5]

So, I'm trying to prepare an encounter for a group of low-optimization, but very lucky and smart, level 4 characters that includes a Ranger, a Paladin, a Sorcerer, and a Fighter/Barbarian (who are occasionally joined by a Monk and rarely joined by a second Sorcerer and almost never joined by a Rogue) in Eberron. I found a near-perfect monster for a scene in Oriental Adventures, though OA is 3.0 and has a few quirks that makes me wonder if it'll be too tough for them.

The monster in question is Shinen-Gaki (though alternatively the Shikki-Gaki could work as well.) It has DR 15/+1, fast healing 4, the fire subtype, 26 hitpoints, some spell like abilities, flight, and a Burn attack similar to a fire elemental's. My stat-fu isn't strong enough to determine if this is still CR 4, or if it's something weaker or stronger. (Sidenote: 3.5 mostly did away with DR that's overcome by increasingly powerful levels of magic on weapons, but I like to keep it as a house rule. Having said that, it really doesn't matter either way if the magic required is only +1 since that's the baseline.)

So... what do you think? Still a typical "Uses up 25% of a party's resources" fight, or is it better to find a different monster? I know the party *can* cast Magic Weapon sometimes but won't always have it prepared. The Paladin can technically turn undead, but it'd have to be a roll of 19 or higher, I think. The sorcerer might have ray of frost, so... woo to the fire subtype's vulnerabilities, though it's only a cantrip. The barbarian might be able to cut through the damage reduction... but then again there's the pesky fast healing. Then again, Eberron's action points can shift the odds a bit... sometimes.

Also... since the party was going to have to purify a part of a forest of this thing as part of a ritual of atonement for crimes against a druidic circle, part of me was going to split the party by having a single member of the group covering a dangerous climb up a mountain to retrieve a sacred flower while the fight was happening. The more that I think about it, though, probably better for that to happen after the fight.

[J-H]

DR 15/+1 is effectively "immunity to anything without magical weapons." I'd guess this at CR 5 or 6ish. Aside from overcoming DR, anyone who uses two or more weapons (lance + regular melee, TWF, etc) may have made the decision to invest in strength gloves instead of +1 weapons, and thus would be unable to overcome the DR except on a crit.

(+2 str item & 2 masterwork weapons = +2 to hit, +1 to damage for both weapons; 2 +1 weapons = +1 to hit, +1 to damage with each weapon)

I suggest reducing it to DR 5/+1, and checking the numbers - if it's going to hit with 80% of its attacks, and the party's going to fail the Reflex save against burning 70% of the time - that's a lot of fire damage.

[DrMotives]

According to the official update, both of those forms of Gaki have damage reduction 5/honorable in 3.5. Of course, if you'd rather houserule the 3.0 damage reduction instead, that's your call. The update lists no change to CR however.

Edit: So 5/honorable isn't too hard to still hurt without honorable weapons, but the update also adds a new spell "Honorable Weapon" to the shaman & sohei spell lists. It is exactly like "Align Weapon" from the PH, only it ads honorable trait instead. Honorable is also available from a samurai's ancestral weapon, which is always treated as honorable for overcoming DR, and a weapon trait that causes weapons to do extra damage to monsters with DR/honorable.

I'd suggest you either allow the honorable weapon spell to be added to the paladin & ranger spell lists, or houserule it into DR 5/Good so "align weapon" will work, if you don't want to mix in a new mechanic to your table.

[MisterKaws]

Keeping the bypass conditions like they were in 3.0 isn't that bad in itself. The real problem lies with the unreasonable amounts of DR monsters had in that edition. As a rule of thumb, divide a 3.0 monster's DR by three, then round it to the nearest multiple of 5, and you've got a reasonable DR for a 3.5 monster.

[John Longarrow]

The 3.5 update changes their DR to 5/honorable. Honorable is similar to "Good" but is an OA specific deal.

You can do a search for Oriental Adventures update to find it.

[Zanos]

Something you have to keep in mind is that DR was much more punishing in 3.5. It was a "your weapon must be this expensive to kill this monster" rather than just making it harder if you couldn't overcome the DR. It wasn't uncommon for some monsters to have DR 40/+3, or similar.

With that in mind, that damage reduction for 3.0 monsters should generally be reduced, including this one. A CR 4 probably shouldn't have more than DR 5 in most cases.

[Afgncaap5]

According to the official update, both of those forms of Gaki have damage reduction 5/honorable in 3.5. Of course, if you'd rather houserule the 3.0 damage reduction instead, that's your call. The update lists no change to CR however.

Edit: So 5/honorable isn't too hard to still hurt without honorable weapons, but the update also adds a new spell "Honorable Weapon" to the shaman & sohei spell lists. It is exactly like "Align Weapon" from the PH, only it ads honorable trait instead. Honorable is also available from a samurai's ancestral weapon, which is always treated as honorable for overcoming DR, and a weapon trait that causes weapons to do extra damage to monsters with DR/honorable.

I'd suggest you either allow the honorable weapon spell to be added to the paladin & ranger spell lists, or houserule it into DR 5/Good so "align weapon" will work, if you don't want to mix in a new mechanic to your table.

Ooh, cool. Didn't know there was an update. Thanks everyone! This is helpful.

I think in my notes I'll houserule its DR to be DR 5/Good or Honorable. I have rules for honor in my world technically, but none of the players have ever been in a situation or gone to a place where such things would matter.