Optimizing my Hybrid Bard | Warlord

[artea21]

Hello, hoping for possible inputs on optimizing my build into a more nova feats/features without relying heavily on my daily utility powers. Thanks!

Build: Level 11 Half Elf Hybrid Bard|Warlord, Battlelord of Kord multiclass Paladin
Attributes:
STR: 19 CON: 16 DEX: 11 INT:09 WIS:12 CHA:21
Feats:
1 Harlequin Style
2 Armored Warlord
4 Weapon Expertise: Heavy Blade
6 Soldier of Faith
8 Combat Virtuoso
10 Ritual Caster
11 Versatile Master
Powers:
1 Dilettante: Sacred Flame
1 Bard AtWill: Vicious Mockery
1 Warlord AtWill: Brash Assault
1 Bard Encounter: Blunder
1 Bard Daily: Stirring Shout
2 Warlord Utility: Heroic Effort
3 Warlord Encounter: No Gambit is Wasted
5 Warlord Daily: Stand the Fallen
6 Bard Utility: Canon of Avoidance
7 Warlord Encounter: Lion's Roar
9 Warlord Daily: Warlord's Recovery
10 Warlord Utility: Instant Planning
11 Battlelord Encounter: Tempest of Triumph

[MwaO]

What are your limits? Because a Bard|Warlord who goes Con/Cha and picks up Valor via Hybrid Talent can go War Chanter. Which is a top tier Nova enabler.

I'd also strongly think about dumping Strength - Direct the Strike is granting someone else an attack and there are stat-independent Warlord attack powers - when you've spent an AP as a War Chanter, you're granting others +Con to hit/damage - so when you grant someone else a BA as part of your AP, they get a free bonus to hit/damage...

[artea21]

What are your limits? Because a Bard|Warlord who goes Con/Cha and picks up Valor via Hybrid Talent can go War Chanter. Which is a top tier Nova enabler.

I'd also strongly think about dumping Strength - Direct the Strike is granting someone else an attack and there are stat-independent Warlord attack powers - when you've spent an AP as a War Chanter, you're granting others +Con to hit/damage - so when you grant someone else a BA as part of your AP, they get a free bonus to hit/damage...

Same old limits, no Dragon Magazines, no Eberron, no Themes.

I'm trying to find a way to make the build closer to your Chordswitch.

Its just that this build was already old when I found out those x-switch builds, making this totally obsolete. Original build was Dilettante on Righteous Brand backed up by Power of Skill feat for MBA use and ultimately for super attack buff per hit of Battlelord of Kord's Level 20 Daily Path of Storm. Now that the Righteous Brand is nerfed, I slowly moved away from that synergy. I wonder if there's still hope for this build to do nova, campaign is on going so DM doesn't allow rerolls. :(

[MwaO]

Again, most of Chordswitch is legal as is. It doesn't really lose anything because you just emphasize the importance of Avenging Spirit feat(Martial Power) - bad combats are ones where at 16th, you likely get 2 action points to spend...

Optimizing around Daily powers or At-Will options is generally a very bad idea. Both from a 'it is boring' and a 'not as effective as great encounter options'

[artea21]

Again, most of Chordswitch is legal as is. It doesn't really lose anything because you just emphasize the importance of Avenging Spirit feat(Martial Power) - bad combats are ones where at 16th, you likely get 2 action points to spend...

Optimizing around Daily powers or At-Will options is generally a very bad idea. Both from a 'it is boring' and a 'not as effective as great encounter options'

So that being said, I really need to find a way to reroll my outdated build. I really want to try Chordswitch, unfortunately I'm stuck into tweaking a bad/obsolete build.

[MwaO]

Are you allowed to switch Paragon Paths or is that set in stone? A simple switch to Hybrid Talent: Valor+War Chanter+Avenging Spirit, which is all perfectly legal, gets everything done. And significantly amps up at 16th when you'd be able to spend 2 APs per combat - basically any combat that's a real threat opens up an option for 2 APs being spent. And while it would have been better to emphasize Constitution over Strength, 16 Con is still good enough to make a real difference in most combats.

Also, why do you have Heavy Blade Expertise and implement powers? Heavy Blade Expertise doesn't work with them. Armored Warlord is a lousy feat - +1 AC essentially. Also, Harlequin Style is Dragon material and I'm not really fond of it for Brash Assault in any case. There's an obvious thing to do with Brash Assault(ignore the free basic attack) and that's assuming you don't have Harlequin Style.

[tiornys]

If you're looking to enable novas on a per-encounter basis, you need at-will and encounter powers that support that. This means you're looking for things that generate bonuses to hit (so your allies land their best encounter powers more reliably), bonuses to damage (making their best encounter powers even better), and bonus actions/attacks (more opportunities to exploit the bonuses to hit and damage). If you're stuck with your current paragon path (definitely swap to War Chanter if you can), you're not lost. Battlelord of Kord is pretty good at this since Tempestuous Inspiration turns your Inspiring Word into a strong +hit/damage encounter power (although it's obviously better for a full Warlord who eventually can access four Inspiring Words per encounter vs. a hybrid who caps out at two uses).

Either way, your paragon path is giving you some good +hit/damage action, so you'll want to be looking a little harder for +action/attack granting powers than +hit/damage powers. With that in mind, I'd strongly suggest consideration of Staggering Note over Vicious Mockery. Vicious Mockery is a fine power, but it doesn't help you generate novas. Brash Assault's value varies wildly depending on how your DM plays it, so I won't say you should lose it. That said, it might be worthwhile to drop it for an at-will that is guaranteed to generate an extra attack for an ally (Commander's Strike or Direct the Strike) if your DM doesn't consistently accept the dare.

For your encounter powers, Blunder is solid for nova-enabling, but No Gambit is Wasted only sometimes helps a nova and Lion's Roar is completely off theme. I'd recommend looking at Devastating Offensive at level 3 and On My Mark at level 7. Echoing Weapon at Bard 3 is also worth a look.

If you want to add some encounter nova enabling from your utilities, you might spend a feat on hybrid talent: Inspiring Presence and take Inspired Belligerence instead of Heroic Effort (only if you're unable to go War Chanter, of course). It's one round of +CHA to damage instead of continuous, but you can use it early in combat every combat. Not sure if that swap is worth the feat though. On the subject of utilities, I'd probably take Revitalizing Incantation at L6 instead of Canon of Avoidance, which would nicely offset the loss of healing from retraining Lion's Roar.

Looking ahead, you have some great options at Warlord 13 in Death from Two Sides and Pincer Maneuver, and then of course there's the ridiculous Hail of Steel at Warlord 17.

[artea21]

Are you allowed to switch Paragon Paths or is that set in stone?
It is an easy NO from my DM.


Also, why do you have Heavy Blade Expertise and implement powers? Heavy Blade Expertise doesn't work with them.

I somehow realized that Heavy Blade Expertise and Implement powers weren't working together and one of the main flaws of that build from the original author.


Armored Warlord is a lousy feat - +1 AC essentially.
Im with you here as I understand how things are going but maybe because this is trying to be tanky also and using Brash Assault whenever on frontline, Armored Warlord still do something even if it wasn't great.



Harlequin Style is Dragon material and I'm not really fond of it for Brash Assault in any case. There's an obvious thing to do with Brash Assault(ignore the free basic attack) and that's assuming you don't have Harlequin Style.
Since this doesn't mind tanking via melee, I think the author is pretty confident to face enemies head on while maximizing the advantage of such at-will power which is arguably better when paired. (Harlequin Style+Brash Assault), also, Brash Assault somehow works since my DM always take the Free attack anyways so its an automatic attack granting power at the moment combined by my defender who marks them.



Battlelord of Kord is pretty good at this since Tempestuous Inspiration turns your Inspiring Word into a strong +hit/damage encounter power (although it's obviously better for a full Warlord who eventually can access four Inspiring Words per encounter vs. a hybrid who caps out at two uses).

Okay, for the record, that is how it was built pre-errata of Righteous Brand. As we know, it buffs us +3 to attack now rather than +Strength pre-nerfed. It really synergized being a Battlelord of Kord since Path of Storms (Lv20 Daily) essentially gives Righteous Brand to everyone on use. In the future, I guess being a full warlord into Battlelord is enough to abuse 4x Inspiring Word and be happy about it since getting a Dilettante as a basic attack and an At-Will seems awesome for the Battlelord.


I'd strongly suggest consideration of Staggering Note over Vicious Mockery. Vicious Mockery is a fine power, but it doesn't help you generate novas.

I'm sad casting Vicious Mockery because Staggering Note is unfortunately under Dragon 383 which isn't allowed to be our reference from this campaign setting.



Brash Assault's value varies wildly depending on how your DM plays it, so I won't say you should lose it. That said, it might be worthwhile to drop it for an at-will that is guaranteed to generate an extra attack for an ally (Commander's Strike or Direct the Strike) if your DM doesn't consistently accept the dare.
No sweat here, he always accepts the dare whenever possible.


I'd recommend looking at Devastating Offensive at level 3
Saw this on handbooks over the net but unfortunately this is introduced only @ Dragon 381 iirc.


On My Mark at level 7.
While this gives a basic attack, I'm nowhere near on my current attributes being low INT/WIS.



Echoing Weapon at Bard 3 is also worth a look.
Another unfortunate good power for me since Heroes of the Feywild and the rest of those Heroes of xxxxx weren't included on our references.



If you want to add some encounter nova enabling from your utilities, you might spend a feat on hybrid talent: Inspiring Presence and take Inspired Belligerence instead of Heroic Effort (only if you're unable to go War Chanter, of course). It's one round of +CHA to damage instead of continuous, but you can use it early in combat every combat. Not sure if that swap is worth the feat though.
Thanks for pointing this out, it came across my mind but also questioned myself if its really great adding to the fact that Hybrid Talent for XXXX Presence weren't as good as the full Warlords.


On the subject of utilities, I'd probably take Revitalizing Incantation at L6 instead of Canon of Avoidance, which would nicely offset the loss of healing from retraining Lion's Roar.
Another unfortunate power for me since its under HotF book.


Looking ahead, you have some great options at Warlord 13 in Death from Two Sides and Pincer Maneuver, and then of course there's the ridiculous Hail of Steel at Warlord 17.
Yes, Death from Two Sides is easily one of the best Lv13 Warlord Power retraining probably my Lv 3 No Gambit is Wasted since I may consider switching feats into Hybrid Talent for Inspired Belligerence, which easily mimic being an xSwitch builds power. As for Level 17, Hail of Steel easily gives basic attack to allies which is solid enough.

In the end its either
Option 1:
Retrain Sacred Flame Lv1 At-Will with Righteous Brand Lv1 At-Will
Retrain Combat Virtuoso Feat with Power of Skill
Option 2:
Retrain Heroic Effort Lv2 Utility with Inspired Belligerence Lv2 Utility
Retrain Combat Virtuoso Feat with Hybrid Talent: Inspiring Presence

I wonder if there is anything much that we can do about the outdated build considering all the factors we discussed.

[tiornys]

Okay, for the record, that is how it was built pre-errata of Righteous Brand. As we know, it buffs us +3 to attack now rather than +Strength pre-nerfed. It really synergized being a Battlelord of Kord since Path of Storms (Lv20 Daily) essentially gives Righteous Brand to everyone on use. In the future, I guess being a full warlord into Battlelord is enough to abuse 4x Inspiring Word and be happy about it since getting a Dilettante as a basic attack and an At-Will seems awesome for the Battlelord.
Yep. Even with the nerf, Righteous Brand might still be your best bet for Dilettante, especially since you can't use Staggering Note (which is less of a problem anyway since your DM is friendly to Brash Assault). Sorry about missing the restrictions on what you can use.


I'm sad casting Vicious Mockery because Staggering Note is unfortunately under Dragon 383 which isn't allowed to be our reference from this campaign setting.
Guiding Strike might be a better choice for Nova-focus. It's a smaller "bonus" to hit than Righteous Brand, but it potentially applies to multiple characters instead of just one. Better for setting the party up to burn down an Elite or Solo.


Saw this on handbooks over the net but unfortunately this is introduced only @ Dragon 381 iirc.
...
While this gives a basic attack, I'm nowhere near on my current attributes being low INT/WIS.
...
Another unfortunate good power for me since Heroes of the Feywild and the rest of those Heroes of xxxxx weren't included on our references.
It's true that On My Mark doesn't grant much of an attack bonus with your stats, but it's still an attack plus a guaranteed ally attack which is excellent for nova enabling. There are a few other E7 encounters that have potential for nova-focus though, depending on your party. War of Attrition might be good if you pick up Inspiring Presence, especially if you have allies with some optimization on their basic/at-will attacks. Unluck or Rewrite the Future could be good if you have an ally with a strong nova setup power that needs to hit for best effect. If none of those works with your party, I think On My Mark is your best bet at E7.

Blunder is still great at E1. For E3 I think your best option is grabbing the Warlord E1 Hammer and Anvil; given your source restrictions it's better for nova-focus than any of the Warlord E3 powers (and Blunder is better than any of the Bard E3 powers). A possible alternative if you pick up Inspiring Presence is Warlord's Strike, which grants an untyped +damage bonus to pair with your other bonuses and granted attacks.

I'm still not a fan of Canon of Avoidance since it takes a Standard Action to get it going, but none of your options are great for nova focus, or for save granting, or for emergency healing. I'd probably go with Song of Speed or Moment of Escape to help positioning, or Synchronicity for the initiative boost.


Thanks for pointing this out, it came across my mind but also questioned myself if its really great adding to the fact that Hybrid Talent for XXXX Presence weren't as good as the full Warlords.
Yep, pretty much it's just spending a feat to make some of your powers better, especially since Inspiring Presence doesn't do anything directly for novas even at full strength.

[artea21]

Yep. Even with the nerf, Righteous Brand might still be your best bet for Dilettante, especially since you can't use Staggering Note (which is less of a problem anyway since your DM is friendly to Brash Assault). Sorry about missing the restrictions on what you can use.

No biggies, I think I just assumed that I already mentioned about the restrictions.



Guiding Strike might be a better choice for Nova-focus. It's a smaller "bonus" to hit than Righteous Brand, but it potentially applies to multiple characters instead of just one. Better for setting the party up to burn down an Elite or Solo.

Hmm this is interesting! while I am a bit demoralized how Weapon Expertise and Implement Powers doesn't work the way I want it even with an Implement Longsword, this maybe a better nova-based At-Will attack.



It's true that On My Mark doesn't grant much of an attack bonus with your stats, but it's still an attack plus a guaranteed ally attack which is excellent for nova enabling. There are a few other E7 encounters that have potential for nova-focus though, depending on your party. War of Attrition might be good if you pick up Inspiring Presence, especially if you have allies with some optimization on their basic/at-will attacks. Unluck or Rewrite the Future could be good if you have an ally with a strong nova setup power that needs to hit for best effect. If none of those works with your party, I think On My Mark is your best bet at E7.

I am solved on War of Attrition once I retrained my feat into Hybrid Talent: Inspiring Presence, while it has little to no value on AP usage, at least it can bolster some if not all of my Warlord powers into nova-esque type of attack power.


Blunder is still great at E1. For E3 I think your best option is grabbing the Warlord E1 Hammer and Anvil; given your source restrictions it's better for nova-focus than any of the Warlord E3 powers (and Blunder is better than any of the Bard E3 powers). A possible alternative if you pick up Inspiring Presence is Warlord's Strike, which grants an untyped +damage bonus to pair with your other bonuses and granted attacks.

Yep couldn't agree more to both of the option, Hammer and Anvil though, I do not missed the power since I'm doing that Harlequin'd Style Brash Assault. But yeah it hits reflex which is better if not the best. Warlord Strike is the way to make it Nova-esque as an Inspiring hybrid Warlord.


I'm still not a fan of Canon of Avoidance since it takes a Standard Action to get it going, but none of your options are great for nova focus, or for save granting, or for emergency healing. I'd probably go with Song of Speed or Moment of Escape to help positioning, or Synchronicity for the initiative boost.

Syncronicity isn't applicable to our campaign due to the home-brewed rule "PC party always go first" while its an interesting addition into an x-switch based Bard hybrid. I'm eyeing Moment of Escape here.



Yep, pretty much it's just spending a feat to make some of your powers better, especially since Inspiring Presence doesn't do anything directly for novas even at full strength.
Just realized how lackluster is its effect compared to its other counterpart presences. Thanks for the suggestions, I think I can make a home-brewed nova that's somehow mimic the x-switch builds.