My player has another champion fix... I might just kill him next session [Archive]

jaappleton

2016-11-11, 07:26 AM

I missed the first part of this. But I wanted to say something:

The player has to know that fluctuations of power happen at the table. Some classes nova, doing a whole lot, and then they're spent for the rest of the day. Paladin is an example of this.

I gather that another character / class at the table made his character seem weak, or inept. That'll happen. What's he going to do when the Wizard casts Fireball and deals 22 damage to six people at once? Is he going to freak out then?

I'm a player myself, I play MUCH more than I DM. If you think this is going to be an ongoing issue, sit the player down and explain the following:

"Each class and character should have a role. Nobody ever wins when players get into an arms race with eachother, because it makes the DM up his game, and the DM can up his game FAR more than the players can. Pick a class, play it, and just have fun. Quit worrying about the numbers. You'll have your moments when you're the shining hero, but so won't the other members of the group."

I was a hell of a powergaming, constantly optimizing everything. I learned that the times nobody would complain about how well-built my characters were was when I was in a support role. Everyone in the group loves a well-optimized Bard or Life Cleric :smallsmile:

Breaklance

2016-11-11, 07:41 AM

So, he likes his character, but his class feels inept compared to the paladin? Fair enough. I can relate. I played a TWF Fighter and tried to out damage our GWM Berserker. It's never fun not to excell in anything.

Let him have his niche. Let him be the tough/tank guy and let the paladin be the buffer/spike damage guy.

If that's the case I understand his senitiment. Playing a bard for the first time I felt very underutilized during combat at low level. I had my one spell to cast and then just had vicious mockery to use which wasn't doing a lot when boss guys and their minions had multi attack.

So I MC'd 2 levels of warlock so I had something else to do and felt like I was contributing more in combat. Faerie fire is awesome but when those 3 guys I selected has 1 pass their check and the other two die before my next turn it doesn't feel like I made a huge impact with that spell.

So if he wants to feel like his character does things that don't matter try to work with him on that through what's available in the PHB and the DMG. Letting him change to a battle master or eldritch knight would give him more to do with the character and be more engaged in combat. As suggested through a few sources in other places perhaps giving him a magic weapon that starts pretty mundane but slowly gains more power or abilities as he levels up may also achieve this.

LordVonDerp

2016-11-11, 08:06 AM

Should I consider this, or just kill his champion.

Neither. You should handle out of game issues out of game.
Also, the champion's big flaw is the lack of damage, so if you want to fix it you should focus there.

Grod_The_Giant

2016-11-11, 08:17 AM

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the Champion either, but this just seems like a bad idea all around. It's raw power in a way that doesn't really fit with 5e's structure (attrition, attrition, attrition) and doesn't really shore up the Champion's problems (reliable bonus damage, lack of choices). The shield thing was neat and not really a change to the class' power; this would be. Suggest switching to Battle Master.

LordVonDerp

2016-11-11, 08:30 AM

The Champion class needs no fixing in the first place.
Please stop spreading this lie.

Nothing feels worse in games than feeling someone else is cheating.
This probably sums up what the champion player is feeling.

Lollerabe

2016-11-11, 08:52 AM

As always take this advice with a grain of salt and adept it to your table.

I would ask the player why he wanted to play the champion archetype in the first place. Odds are he thought imp. Crit was cool and realized that the rest of the features come way to late and are pretty lackluster when they arrive.

IF that is the case I would simply make imp crit a feat (maybe a half feat or add another bullet as well) and let him respec to another fighter archetype.

I'll try to not derail your thread to much with this, but the math has proven that the champion is super lackluster when it comes to damg. The amount of attrition/rounds needed in order for it to peak the BMs damg is unrealistic in actual play.
At my table we have simply scrapped the champion as of now.
If a player wanted to play one we'd have to homebrew it quite a bit, simplicity is fine, overall being a weak competitive choice isn't.

CaptainSarathai

2016-11-11, 08:52 AM

Yep, I suggest having him either switch to another archetype or even class, or else multiclassing.
What's important here is to ask why he wants to play a Champion.
If I were going to hazard a guess, based on how he seems to he playing, he saw "Crit on 19-20, 18-20" and thought it was ah-mazing. Like an "optimizer" who doesn't know what he's doing.
Ask him what he wants to see his character doing, then help him understand how to build that. Tell him that you're not comfortable homebrewing a class on the fly. Tell him to at least get through this one; either play the Champ all the way up (they start getting better at 11+) or else switch builds.

Zalabim

2016-11-11, 09:30 AM

Just throwing some noodle-y suggestions out here, because there's nothing so disappointing as the level 3 champion feature. (Blatant exaggeration for effect).

In addition, when you critically hit a hostile creature, you regain the use of Second Wind. Or Action Surge. This would make crits not suck in a big way. Probably too big of a way.

Give the extra fighting style at level 3 and give proficiency in Dexterity saves at level 10 to represent cross-training (and evoke the many good saves of the AD&D fighter). The Champion is all about passive benefits that make him just a little better than every other fighter, and the fighting style is more constant than the critical hits. You could put the first critical hit benefit off til 10 or still give it at 3.

Power Attack: Once per turn, when you hit with a weapon attack, you may roll an additional weapon damage die and add it to your damage. This replaces the expanded critical hit range as a crit-like benefit that doesn't have to scale up as you get more attacks (but does get a little better when you have more chances to hit at least once). It doesn't do anything like the Superiority Dice, can't be rationed and nova-ed, but it doesn't run out either. The later level benefit can still be improved critical range, even the 18-20, or additional use of power attack.

Good homebrew is hard.

Vogonjeltz

2016-11-11, 10:14 AM

Please stop spreading this lie.

This probably sums up what the champion player is feeling.

Champion is best sustained damage in the game. On the spectrum of sustained to burst it's the sustained anchor.

There's nothing wrong with that, someone has to fill that role.

MaxDPSsays

2016-11-11, 10:46 AM

If he is complaining about his damage, why is he wanting his healing ability earlier? Is there a healer type in the group this may push to the side?

He should have picked the battlemaster if he wants to do more damage. I'm like you, I'd give him the opportunity to change to battlemaster instead. Maybe make a quest out of it to seek out a trainer or something.

What's next? He sees the rogue doing sneak attack damage and feels all of his attacks should hit like that? The wizard disentigrates his foe for a ton of damage at range and now he thinks he should be able to throw his sword for that much damage?

Can't be the best at everything.

Lombra

2016-11-11, 11:03 AM

I think you shouldn't allow that, the fighter already has the d10+fighter level heal 1/short rest, and can wear heavy armor and shield if he really wants to tank.

MaxWilson

2016-11-11, 11:11 AM

So you heard about the shield business in the other thread...

And I allowed it... but I opened Pandora's Box

Now he wants survivor earlier.

His idea is, at 3rd level you get a 1d4 + con, and later 1d6, and then 1d8 and then 1d10.

Should I consider this, or just kill his champion.

I like the idea, but it opens up abuse with multiclassing. Now if he told me he would never multiclass... fine.

The idea is good, but I realize why survivor is at 18th level, because it is awesome. And to get even 1d4 at 3rd or even 6th level, that's very potent.

Let the player have his fun. "Fix" the character, not the class.

Have him find a weird bio-contraption with a receptacle large enough to lie in, a lot of feathery tendrils, and a big red button on it. If he climbs inside and presses the button, he comes out infused with troll blood, similar to one of those frost giant abominations in Volo's Guide to Monsters. He regenerates (+proficiency bonus) HP of damage per turn as long as he has at least one HP remaining and is in his own form; he feels savage urges and strange hungers; and he loses 2 points of Int, Wis, and Cha.

He gets to feel potent, but you don't set a bad precedent for future Champion builds, and it comes with a downside that would hamper spellcasting if he multiclassed. If you're worried about him multiclassing as a Barbarian... don't worry, just learn how to deal with Barbarians. (Hit-and-run tactics to deplete Rages. E.g. goblin squads at night.)

LordVonDerp

2016-11-11, 02:21 PM

Champion is best sustained damage in the game. On the spectrum of sustained to burst it's the sustained anchor.

There's nothing wrong with that, someone has to fill that role.
It only has the best sustained damage in a pure white room analysis that ignores HP loss (can't keep going if you're dead), the entire rest of the party (have to stop if the party stops), and the passage of time (if an hour passes uneventfully then you've taken a rest). In a real game though? No.

gfishfunk

2016-11-11, 02:27 PM

Regeneration is too much.

Tell him no. If he persists, tell him no again. If he persists, ask him what he wants. Why does he want this other thing? If it is to balance the class, say no.

Allow him to reroll the character: keep the character, but allow him to rebuild it ground up.

Absent that, tell him no and eventually direct him to other games.

Coffee_Dragon

2016-11-11, 02:37 PM

Neither. You should handle out of game issues out of game.

Agree with this. Don't punish the player to cover your own mistake. Talk to him, retract the earlier change if you want to. Is there anything to prevent that?

CantigThimble

2016-11-11, 03:16 PM

Please stop spreading this controversial opinion which I disagree with.

Fixed it for you.

There are lots of reasonable people who think the champion is 'fine' for various reasons. Most people agree that it's not their cup of tea and others archetypes are probably a little stronger but it's far from being unplayable. Accusing them of being deliberately deceitful for holding that opinion is dishonest and rude.

Vogonjeltz

2016-11-11, 03:30 PM

It only has the best sustained damage in a pure white room analysis that ignores HP loss (can't keep going if you're dead), the entire rest of the party (have to stop if the party stops), and the passage of time (if an hour passes uneventfully then you've taken a rest). In a real game though? No.

No, your statement is totally without merit.

I am saying that he has the best damage gradient, which he does, because the damage bonuses of the Champion are all Passive increases with unlimited uses, unlike, for example, every other class and archetype.

As to when sustained output eclipses burst output, that's a simple equation. For Champion vis Battlemaster it occurs after about 43 attacks per rest (assuming the Battlemaster uses all their resources to deal additional damage successfully of course).

If the BM is less the optimal, it would take fewer attacks.

Sabeta

2016-11-11, 03:54 PM

In my current game, my players were regularly upset that my Fighter could ORKO just about anything I wanted with an Action Surge and GWM.
That was until we ran into 30 tigthly packed Zombies that all succumbed to a Fireball. Or the room full of sleeping gaurds that died to Fireball.
Or the time we spent 20-30 minutes as our Sharpshooter Ranger found high ground and was able to snipe about 40% of a dungeon through windows.

Everyone has realized they have strong points and weak points. If you want the Champion to start feeling better than his Paladin friend, start giving out more short rests, and less long rests. Tempt the Paladin to burn his Novas sooner rather than later, and imo; don't kill his character just for asking for nice things on a class that lacks nice things.

Oramac

2016-11-11, 04:36 PM

Suggest switching to Battle Master.

This. It sounds like he really wants more versatility. The Battle Master offers that.

MaxDPSsays

2016-11-11, 06:56 PM

I don't think you should force short rest on the party for the fighters sake, and certainly not make the paladin burn through his smites faster. That's punishing the paladin, and for what? Because the fighter is complaining that his damage isn't very good and is asking for healing abilities? Yea I still can't get past him asking for something that's opposite of what he is really wanting.

jaappleton

2016-11-11, 07:01 PM

nilshai

2016-11-11, 07:10 PM

Should I consider this, or just kill his champion.

Yes, kill his character. Make him suffer for YOUR mistake.

LordVonDerp

2016-11-11, 08:07 PM

No, your statement is totally without merit.
No, my statement was roughly 80-90% objective fact.

I am saying that he has the best damage gradient, which he does, because the damage bonuses of the Champion are all Passive increases with unlimited uses, unlike, for example, every other class and archetype.
They are passive and unlimited, but also random, unlikely, and not very powerful.

As to when sustained output eclipses burst output, that's a simple equation. For Champion vis Battlemaster it occurs after about 43 attacks per rest (assuming the Battlemaster uses all their resources to deal additional damage successfully of course).
It is a fairly simple equation, though your math is way off. Given that a critical adds the same amount of damage as a BM maneuver.
Assuming level 20:
Chance of a champion crit in any given round: 1-(.85)^4 = .48
So that's slightly less than one critical per 2 rounds
BM gets 6 dice, so thats 12 rounds. That alone means the champion needs at least 48 attacks to come out ahead. (I'll get to why 48 is the minimum rather than the maximum later)
But what does 12 rounds mean?
A typical fight lasts 2-4 rounds, so 12 rounds means 3-6 typical encounters (though in the name of differences in kind 3-4 is more likely)
After 3-4 typical encounters most of the party will need to rest, at which point the BM gets all the dice back.
Oh, and if the BM starts a fight with no dice, he gets one free.

If the BM is less the optimal, it would take fewer attacks.
If the BM uses maneuvers with a medium-low degree of skill then it takes at least 48 attacks for the champion to get ahead. If the BM makes use of synergy and situational effects then that minimum ends up higher.

Now, as for why the number of rounds serves as a minimum rather than a maximum, it's because that's only the point where they become equal on paper, and doesn't account for the fact that the BM has a choice in the use of their abilities, and certainty is a big advantage vs uncertainty, even when everything else is equal.

Herobizkit

2016-11-11, 08:20 PM

Suggest re-roll to War Cleric.

All weapons, all armor, heals, and ways to make him fight better.

Add in Shield Master feat if he's v-human.

bid

2016-11-11, 08:37 PM

As to when sustained output eclipses burst output, that's a simple equation. For Champion vis Battlemaster it occurs after about 43 attacks per rest (assuming the Battlemaster uses all their resources to deal additional damage successfully of course).
As I demonstrated before, Champion runs out of hp before it matches BM. And precision attack has the best DPR boost.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21379592&postcount=67
"Even with advantage on all attack rolls to boost improved critical, champion remains weaker. You'd need a day with more than 63 rounds of combat (impossible at level 3). Even 30 rounds of combat at level 5 is pushing it."

Of course, remarkable athlete improves the balance. But champion is a bad choice if you want power early.

CaptainSarathai

2016-11-11, 09:17 PM

If you want the Champion to start feeling better than his Paladin friend, start giving out more short rests, and less long rests. Tempt the Paladin to burn his Novas sooner rather than later, and imo; don't kill his character just for asking for nice things on a class that lacks nice things.
Yep! This would actually help a lot.

I don't think you should force short rest on the party for the fighters sake, and certainly not make the paladin burn through his smites faster.
Don't force them. Run the short, short rests variant. Hand them out a Short Rest after 5-minute breaks in the action.
You could even just rule that you'll handle Short Rests, and tell them that they get on after every 3 fights unless you say otherwise. Like the 4e Milestone system.

Of course, remarkable athlete improves the balance. But champion is a bad choice if you want power early.
Yep, Champ is basically the "BladePact" choice for Fighters; poorest of the 3, and doesn't even get "good" until higher levels. Admittedly, EK isn't particularly great early on either.
Champion is "dip fodder." Oh? You want Second Wind, Action Surge, a Fighting Style, and maybe an armor proficiency? That's 2 levels of Fighter. Why not go one more and Crit on a 19+, and get some skill bonuses?

Stacking Improved Crit on a Barbarian or Paladin, with easy access to Advantage, is brutal. Even Rogues make good use of it, because they have more dice to double. Hell, even a Caster could run with it of they're focusing on using the SCAG cantrips - because it would put their number of dice through the roof.

Really, if he just wants to slam damage, telling him to dip out would be perfect. Tell him that he'll never get any better as a Champion, because that's not what Champions are about. They're the keystone by which all other martials or damage-builds should be judged. Just like Ancients Paladins (the other Oaths get boosts to acc) are basically the ground-floor for what a pure Striker should look to accomplish.
If you think you're the party DPR machine, you need to be able to do at least Champion damage. If you think that your build has stupid high damage, you should be able to do at least a Paladin's "two Smite round" worth of damage or do it more consistently.
In fact, because I'm sure it exists: what is the "estimated dpr" which 5e seems to balanced around? Maybe by tier or something, so like, Lvl1-4, 5-10, 11-16, 17-20, how much damage should a character be able to average in an adventuring day with proper rest (or however many rounds that would be)

bid

2016-11-11, 10:16 PM

Stacking Improved Crit on a Barbarian or Paladin, with easy access to Advantage, is brutal.
Nah it's crap. Teh sihny cirt, it does nothing.

Let me repeat once again: Even if you cheat* all you can to give champion an advantage, you will run out of health before champion catches up with BM.

I've shown actual numbers often enough that I will not buy the opposite viewpoint without cold hard facts to back it up. Show me the money, and I'll believe you.

*cheat as in refuse a fair and square realistic fight, and stack everything to help champion.

Ryuu Hayato

2016-11-11, 11:08 PM

But how you will fix the champion? I only see two ways: lvl 3 gain +1 on damage rolls; and lvl 15 crit on 17 rolls. Still passive and gain much more power.

djreynolds

2016-11-12, 01:27 AM

These are some very good ideas. So I'll give you an update.

1. We did allow the shield don/doff for a bonus action in place of remarkable athlete... I thought a reaction was a little to strong as it really only pertains to AoO for him

2. I just said no to the survivor this early. You have second wind as a bonus action

3. I have always made short rests, like a 5 minute breather, so they the party takes them more often

4. I'm allowing him to rearrange some stats, mainly wis/int/chr so he can multiclass

5. The survivor idea has merit, but paladin can lay on hands, barbarian has rage resistance, but the fighter does have second wind, so there is a form of damage mitigation... so I stood firm

I do understand there are polar views of the champion

In AL play with standard array though I think a fighter looks strong as they can max their attack stat at 6th level assuming a 16 in it at creation or take a powerful feat such as GWM or PAM or shield master and their melee buddies, paladin and barbarian have other stats that need their attention.

Zalabim

2016-11-12, 04:17 AM

But champion is a bad choice if you want power early.

I can really drive this point home.

As a Battle Master, your benefits are either unrelated to your attacks or are giving you one attack. So the benefits of Superiority Dice go up when you hit harder with an attack and when you get improved dice. Outside of a feats like GWM (which you could potentially have from level 1 as v.Human) and magic items, your damage is only going up about two points. Instead of 10-11/20-21 you deal 12-13/22-23. Not a big difference. Going from level 3 up to level 20, you're starting with 4 dice that are 4.5 average value per die or 11 damage (for one hit) and going to 6 dice that are 6.5 average value per die or 23 damage (for one hit.) So at level 3, you have ~32-46% of the value of this feature. Battle Master is the path for early power.

As a Champion, your benefits apply for each attack you make. If I assume 7 rounds between rests to gauge how often Action Surge can be used, then at level 3 they're making 8/7 attacks per round with 1 expanded crit range. At level 20 they're making 36/7 attacks per round with 2 expanded crit range. You start out with only 11% of your path's offensive benefits. Adding in the extra attack on crits from GWM doesn't really change the ratio, just the absolute value.

An Eldritch Knight starts with 2 cantrips, 3 spells known, and 2 spell slots (4 spell points value) and ends with 3 cantrips, 13 spells known, and 11 spell slots (38 spell points value), but its spells don't have the same non-action-costing offensive benefits to compare.

Bowserboy129

2016-11-12, 05:38 AM

In my opinion none of the sub-classes need to be fixed at all. They do their job just fine and don't need a major boost. Champion in my eyes isn't something that's meant to be a flashy class anyway, just a class that is always good and when the going gets tough (Unless you really screwed your build, which is hard as hell in 5E) they're the guys who are gonna keep the party alive when they're out of skills and nearly dead. They're the guys who re gonna be able to crit where it counts and do it more reliably. They're the guys who when the party is all down at the end of a hard fight who'll pick their sorry butts up and drag them to safety. The Champion is fine as is, don't change it for a guy who's not gonna be happy till he's nearly god like.

CaptainSarathai

2016-11-12, 06:02 AM

They're the guys who re gonna be able to crit where it counts and do it more reliably.
By "where it counts" do you mean "on the random Goblin at the cave entrance who was a 1-hit-KO anyway?
And by "reliably," I know you don't mean 10% of the time...

They're the guys who when the party is all down at the end of a hard fight who'll pick their sorry butts up and drag them to safety.
Or, y'know, they could be a class which contributes healing, buffs, or a NOVA strike to the party so that the room gets thinned out before it can attack, or the BBEG goes down before he gets that last round in.

The champion is just a lump. They play like another class just stopped taking features at Lvl2 and only gained HP and ASIs from there on. They're just depressing to play. In combat, they don't have a job unless you need just a doorstop. Outside of combat - same problem, they have no chance to shine.
Unless the DM really digs deep (and he should, it's what a good DM does) then there's just nothing for a Champion to do during the adventuring day.
"Gee thanks Champ, for holding up that really heavy thing"
"Good job jumping across the gorge Champ. At least you're 1 less person the Wizard has to magic across."
"Way to go on regenning HP there Champ, that's one less person the Pally and Cleric have to worry about healing"

Does it matter? Yeah, it's helpful that the Champ is usually 100% self-sufficient. But it's boring. Nobody is going to brag about that time the Champion saved the Rogue's life by not using up the Paladin's last 5 points of Lay on Hands.

Bowserboy129

2016-11-12, 06:27 AM

By "where it counts" do you mean "on the random Goblin at the cave entrance who was a 1-hit-KO anyway?
And by "reliably," I know you don't mean 10% of the time...

Or, y'know, they could be a class which contributes healing, buffs, or a NOVA strike to the party so that the room gets thinned out before it can attack, or the BBEG goes down before he gets that last round in.

The champion is just a lump. They play like another class just stopped taking features at Lvl2 and only gained HP and ASIs from there on. They're just depressing to play. In combat, they don't have a job unless you need just a doorstop. Outside of combat - same problem, they have no chance to shine.
Unless the DM really digs deep (and he should, it's what a good DM does) then there's just nothing for a Champion to do during the adventuring day.
"Gee thanks Champ, for holding up that really heavy thing"
"Good job jumping across the gorge Champ. At least you're 1 less person the Wizard has to magic across."
"Way to go on regenning HP there Champ, that's one less person the Pally and Cleric have to worry about healing"

Does it matter? Yeah, it's helpful that the Champ is usually 100% self-sufficient. But it's boring. Nobody is going to brag about that time the Champion saved the Rogue's life by not using up the Paladin's last 5 points of Lay on Hands.

It's not helpful because you write off the class right away, which is something you should never do. You forget that the fighter is by far the most versatile and gets the most ASIs out of anyone. You can do pretty much anything with a Champion short of casting, so long as you work with it rather than against it. You wanna make a damn good DPS warrior who'll be able to take down anybody on their own? Go for it. You wanna make a tanky SoB who's able to hold down the big scary beast that would destroy the rest of the party in seconds? Have at it! You wanna go with some weird feat combo that randomly synergies well with each other and outshine that paladin aside from the 5 times they get to get off a Smite before you need to long rest should the rest of your party want to over adventuring further? Be my guest! It's D&D, if you aren't being creative you're doing it wrong and that goes for every class, not just the Champion.

Mrglee

2016-11-12, 06:37 AM

Champion is best sustained damage in the game.

In a featless game, the second GWM/PM comes into play the Barbarian will out damage even without rage.

djreynolds

2016-11-12, 07:20 AM

Yes, kill his character. Make him suffer for YOUR mistake.

I'm sorry, it is my fault. But I said no to the survivor, and I really do promote short resting.

LordVonDerp

2016-11-12, 07:21 AM

Champion in my eyes isn't something that's meant to be a flashy class anyway, just a class that is always good and when the going gets tough (Unless you really screwed your build, which is hard as hell in 5E) they're the guys who are gonna keep the party alive when they're out of skills and nearly dead.
They're
A) only ever mediocre
And
B) the rest of the party will stop before they're in that bad of shape.

They're the guys who re gonna be able to crit where it counts and do it more reliably.
They can't crit when it counts because they can't choose.

They're the guys who when the party is all down at the end of a hard fight who'll pick their sorry butts up and drag them to safety.
By that point he'll be in just as bad shape as everyone else.

Bowserboy129

2016-11-12, 07:41 AM

They're
A) only ever mediocre
And
B) the rest of the party will stop before they're in that bad of shape.

They can't crit when it counts because they can't choose.

By that point he'll be in just as bad shape as everyone else.

No they aren't. Like I said to the last guy the fighter is the most versitile class out there and short of spell casting you can do anything with them. Not to mention it fits many people's play style better than battle master or EK anyway. Also you'd be surprised how long some parties will keep going for. Not everyone is willing to stop and take a long rest just cause you're out of spells or what not. Why wait around for one dude when everyone who managed their skills better can still keep going for a long while.

You're right, they can't choose. Just like you can't choose when your save or suck spell goes through. Diffrence is the Champ doesn't waste anything by not criting while a caster wastes a slot that could of easily been a haste or some kind of heal.

No, they won't be. You forget that the Champion is one of the best classes at staying up and pulling through when need be. I can't tell you the amount of times the Champion has saved my party's rear, though it's mainly because the people using it didn't write off the class. Which ya know, is kind of a bad idea in DnD since literally anything can be made amazing if you give it the chance.

Lollerabe

2016-11-12, 08:09 AM

MaxDPSsays

2016-11-12, 01:29 PM

I feel I gotta say something else about the BM that seems to be overlooked. Yes they add superiority dice to their damage on most of their techniques, but they also carry some pretty cool riders. Trip attack, then gain advantage on the rest of your attacks against that target? Heck yea! We have a BM in our group that uses one (forgot the name and AFB) that allows him to direct an ally to make an attack in place of one of his own, which also adds his superiority damage. He normally uses it on our rogue, who can get extra sneak attack damage on that attack. At times it goes on our paladin for a smited hit. So it really can do more than just 1d6 damage extra.

bid

2016-11-12, 01:30 PM

It's strange to me that the people saying that the champion is fine as is, is blatantly ignoring all facts proving otherwise yet providing none that supports their point.
In the other thread, someone came up with the unfair advantage of giving advantage to every champion/BM attack roll. It still wasn't enough.

I'd love to find a niche use for champion, to know its limit. Can someone who believes in champion come up with a level 8-ish character which can match a BM in less than 30 rounds / 6-8 encounters / a long rest.

Armored Walrus

2016-11-12, 01:57 PM

Why is it a choice between allowing it and killing off his character? Just tell him no. If that sours him on the character and causes him to want to reroll, let him commit suicide, but why make that decision for him?

Coffee_Dragon

2016-11-12, 02:03 PM

Why is it a choice between allowing it and killing off his character?

Yeah! Kill off one of the other characters, and if the other player asks why, you say, "Can't help it, it's his stupid champion house rules."

Herobizkit

2016-11-12, 06:18 PM

Some folks just wanna roll dice and do damage and take hits. They don't need or want fancy tricks of any kind.

That's who the Champion is for.

It works as designed for its intended use. In a game with only Fighter, Mage, Thief and Cleric... it's the Fighter. :)

Fighter gon' fight.

djreynolds

2016-11-13, 01:28 AM

It's strange to me that the people saying that the champion is fine as is, is blatantly ignoring all facts proving otherwise yet providing none that supports their point.

@djreynolds

You are right, at lvl 6 any fighter can have 18 strength and GWM/SS/PAM/SM and that is indeed strong. The problem is - that's not a champion feature, it's a fighter feature.
EKs and BMs can do that to while having an archetype that dosent blow.

If we are being honest for a second the 'champion is a very bad option for dpr' statement isn't an opinion - it's a fact.

Prior to lvl 6 what does the champion do better than a paladin ? Im seriously asking here, he deals less damg, has less healing and way less versatility. No wonder your player feels shafted.

I'm just trying to say that I don't think your player is trying to pull a fast one on you, I think he realized that the champion isn't what he thought and he regrets picking it.

Since you had another thread regarding the savage attacker feat - add imp crit to feat, remove the champion archetype - boom two birds, one stone.

You are 100% right, nothing the champion does comes off as "honed to deadly perfection"

I had proposed a limited auto crit that would be based on champion levels on a long rest. But it would only work with no multiclassing. You could once a day x level, auto crit. There would be too much multiclassing abuse and cherry picking

The paladin may only have 2 attacks but at level 11, he has improved divine smite which IMO is better than 3 attacks

Survivor is great, but 18th level is so far away.

xanderh

2016-11-13, 05:00 AM

The paladin may only have 2 attacks but at level 11, he has improved divine smite which IMO is better than 3 attacks

That's your opinion, but math doesn't agree. Improved smite is 1d8 damage to both of your attacks. The average of that is 4.5 per attack. A fighter with a 1d8 weapon has the same damage increase as the paladin in that case (assuming 20 strength, which is easily possible on a fighter), ignoring the potential for more spiking damage from things like superiority dice. If the weapon has higher damage, or you can get a damage increase from a feat, the fighter gets a bigger increase. The only real bonus the paladin has with this feature is creatures with vulnerability to radiant damage, and things like zombies. And at 11th level, an advantage against zombies isn't really going to be that noticeable.

In terms of the champion discussion, there's a critical component that is often overlooked on these forums: does it feel good to play?
In my opinion, yes. I'm having fun with the mechanics of playing my champion fighter. I know he deals less damage than a battlemaster could, but playing him is fun. Oh, and remarkable athlete has been the difference between going before or after an enemy, allowing me to kill him before he could do anything to us.

Anonymouswizard

2016-11-13, 07:18 AM

djreynolds

2016-11-13, 07:52 AM

The perceived problem with the Champion is that it wasn't designed for this board, in the same way the fighter as a whole wasn't designed for players like me (who, if their character doesn't have a lot of options, will get bored and start poking random buttons with a stick). I mean, I had fun as one, but that was because I was specifically trying to become a divine Dragonborn cowboy (and I'd likely use Rogue next time I go for that).

The Champion isn't even for new players, who are likely going to have at least as much fun as a Battle Master, Barbarian, Sorcerer, Paladin, or pretty much any class. It's for the guy who wants to hang out and have fun without worrying about the rules, and in 80% of groups it's probably fine as nobody will be doing a particularly optimised character and won't be paying attention to who's doing the best and who's dragging the group down.

That is a really good view of this. Thanks

I have played 4 champions, and I find they are actually more work to really "needed".

Its not difficult for the guy next to your wizard to drop a fireball or use the shield spell.

Players have lives and families and work.

Is the champion fun.... that is really dependent on the people at the table. I have fun, but I always do. But I understand tactics and such, and I'm there for the PnP D&D... the people at the table.

Perhaps I'm terrible at DMing, and that could be true, but my players have lots of fun, but the guy playing a champion now doesn't get excited and rarely crits. It really just relies on the roll of dice too much

Grod_The_Giant

2016-11-13, 01:19 PM

Perhaps I'm terrible at DMing, and that could be true, but my players have lots of fun, but the guy playing a champion now doesn't get excited and rarely crits. It really just relies on the roll of dice too much
Really, this. There's no problem with having a simple class, but the core mechanic is just... sad. I'd rather see a flat damage boost (+1d6 on your first attack each round, say) than something that can both go an entire session without coming up and have practically no effect when it finally happens. Crits in 5e are painfully anticlimactic if you're not a Rogue or Paladin.

djreynolds

2016-11-14, 02:22 AM

Really, this. There's no problem with having a simple class, but the core mechanic is just... sad. I'd rather see a flat damage boost (+1d6 on your first attack each round, say) than something that can both go an entire session without coming up and have practically no effect when it finally happens. Crits in 5e are painfully anticlimactic if you're not a Rogue or Paladin.

Yes, thank you. Crits are painfully anticlimactic. Its not that the champion is simple, its not exciting.

Are you having fun? Yes we have fun. But I don't like to homebrew, because then every player wants something else.

I allow for role play and back story and growth, and as a champion you should IMO be able to bring more of yourself as a person as the class gives you less.

I have in the past played without feats as a champion, and with feats. You shouldn't need feats to shine.

The archetype is called a champion. He should be the best at something.

Arkhios

2016-11-14, 02:50 AM

Yes, thank you. Crits are painfully anticlimactic. Its not that the champion is simple, its not exciting.

Are you having fun? Yes we have fun. But I don't like to homebrew, because then every player wants something else.

I allow for role play and back story and growth, and as a champion you should IMO be able to bring more of yourself as a person as the class gives you less.

I have in the past played without feats as a champion, and with feats. You shouldn't need feats to shine.

The archetype is called a champion. He should be the best at something.

But they are. Best at staying power throughout the day. Other than action surge, second wind, and indomitable, champions don't have abilities which rely on getting frequent rests. Champions can go on and on and on as long as they have hit points left. Battle Masters have their dice, which are relatively few in number, and when they run out, they're not performing as well as they normally would. Short rests can't and shouldn't be taken for granted.

djreynolds

2016-11-14, 03:23 AM

But they are. Best at staying power throughout the day. Other than action surge, second wind, and indomitable, champions don't have abilities which rely on getting frequent rests. Champions can go on and on and on as long as they have hit points left. Battle Masters have their dice, which are relatively few in number, and when they run out, they're not performing as well as they normally would. Short rests can't and shouldn't be taken for granted.

I hear you. You are 100% right, but crits are so random.

Without the increased capability of landing crits, and the 2 extra feats, which do all come before 14th level... they are just the same a battlemaster out of SD or a paladin out of spells.

The champion just has a 5% increase till 15th level of landing a crit, over the paladin without spells and the battlemaster out of SD and rageless barbarian.

Its the extra feat at 6th and 14th that might be the power of the fighter.

Arkhios

2016-11-14, 04:20 AM

I hear you. You are 100% right, but crits are so random.

Without the increased capability of landing crits, and the 2 extra feats, which do all come before 14th level... they are just the same a battlemaster out of SD or a paladin out of spells.

The champion just has a 5% increase till 15th level of landing a crit, over the paladin without spells and the battlemaster out of SD and rageless barbarian.

Its the extra feat at 6th and 14th that might be the power of the fighter.

Maybe you could try and give 18-20 crit range at 3rd level, and see how it works out. Just make it clear to your player that it will remain subject to change if it proves to be too powerful. If it proves to be alright, you could maybe further increase the crit range.

LordVonDerp

2016-11-14, 08:14 AM

No they aren't. Like I said to the last guy the fighter is the most versitile class out there and short of spell casting you can do anything with them. that's the fighter as a whole, this is a discussion about the champion.

Not to mention it fits many people's play style better than battle master or EK anyway.
And?

Also you'd be surprised how long some parties will keep going for. Not everyone is willing to stop and take a long rest just cause you're out of spells or what not.
A) We're talking about short rests.
B) if the party can handle 3+ encounters without needing a short rest then the encounters were too weak.

Why wait around for one dude when everyone who managed their skills better can still keep going for a long while.
We're discussing the reverse situation: why let one guy keep going when the rest of the party decides to stop?

You're right, they can't choose. Just like you can't choose when your save or suck spell goes through.
Not a valid comparison.
Save or suck spells have the following advantages
-you can choose to target a weak save
-they have big effects when they work.
And that's how you balance random effects.

Diffrence is the Champ doesn't waste anything by not criting while a caster wastes a slot that could of easily been a haste or some kind of heal.
A worthy price to pay for a big effect.

No, they won't be. You forget that the Champion is one of the best classes at staying up and pulling through when need be.
Except for the fact that they're no better at that than any other fighter, and not even Survivor helps them with that.

I can't tell you the amount of times the Champion has saved my party's rear, though it's mainly because the people using it didn't write off the class.
To quote VSauce, "the plural of anecdote is not data."

Which ya know, is kind of a bad idea in DnD since literally anything can be made amazing if you give it the chance.
There's not much you can do to make a champion amazing compared to a battlemaster.

djreynolds

2016-11-14, 08:21 AM

Maybe you could try and give 18-20 crit range at 3rd level, and see how it works out. Just make it clear to your player that it will remain subject to change if it proves to be too powerful. If it proves to be alright, you could maybe further increase the crit range.

I feel like a awful DM, I literally give out 5min short rest breathers, I will try your suggestion 18-20.

But I feel bad for him, the dice just do not go his way.

LordVonDerp

2016-11-14, 08:36 AM

But they are. Best at staying power throughout the day.
How many times do I have to debunk this?

Other than action surge, second wind, and indomitable, champions don't have abilities which rely on getting frequent rests.

Champions can go on and on and on as long as they have hit points left.
So, 2-4 encounters, or not enough time to eclipse the BM

Battle Masters have their dice, which are relatively few in number, and when they run out, they're not performing as well as they normally would.
Relatively few compared to what? If it's relative to champion crits then no, they actually get more.

Short rests can't and shouldn't be taken for granted.
Why not? They're easy to take, hard to avoid, and necessary if you want to avoid the 15 minute workday.

Ryuu Hayato

2016-11-14, 12:54 PM

I'll say again, Champion is "The archetypal Champion focuses on the development of raw physical power honed to deadly perfection. Those who model themselves on this archetype combine rigorous training with physical excellence to deal devastating blows". Just give to him lvl 3 gain +1 bonus to all weapon damage rolls; and lvl 15 can crit on 17-20 attack rolls.

On lvl 5 Fighter can attack twice per round, so +1 bonus to all weapon damage rolls is +2 damage per round. The BM can use 4d8 (4*4,5 = 18 average damage). In the 9th round, the champion can deal the same average damage of the BM. Still simple and passive, but strong alternative.

The "[...] rigorous training with physical excellence to deal devastating blows" is +1 bonus to all weapon damage rolls and "[...] focuses on the development of raw physical power honed to deadly perfection" is crit on 17-20.

Vogonjeltz

2016-11-14, 07:06 PM

No, my statement was roughly 80-90% objective fact.

Let's look:

It only has the best sustained damage in a pure white room analysis that ignores HP loss (can't keep going if you're dead), the entire rest of the party (have to stop if the party stops), and the passage of time (if an hour passes uneventfully then you've taken a rest). In a real game though? No.

I didn't ignore HP loss, I only calculated out the average damage dealt per attack, determined the average damage dealt per round, then did a comparison. The Champion has a higher slope, classes like the Battlemaster have a higher y-intercept. Then, examining each linear equation I was able to determine the point of intersection (i.e. the number of attacks or rounds it would require for the higher slope subclass, the Champion, to surpass the higher y-intercept subclass, the Battlemaster.

The estimated number of rounds per combat would be 10, which is easily achievable in a day at level 3. By level 5 it's only 8 rounds.

I was measuring the value of the damage from superiority dice and how many attacks would be required (on average, of course) for the Champion to equal or surpass that extra damage. For the purposes of this question, utility is irrelevant.

No, it's based on a +4 str mod (+0 str mod testing revealed a similar number of attacks required to eclipse) wielding a Greatsword with the Great Weapon Master feat (criticals enable a bonus attack, so the Champion nets more benefit from this feature), it's 6 attacks per superiority die successfully used to increase damage. These dice can be used in ways that add no additional damage, so it won't always be that way.

The increased crit chance of the Champion at 3rd level increases their average damage per attack by 1/2 a point, I didn't test the average increase at 15% crit chance and I didn't test for advantage/disadvantage. The break even point for a single die is 6 attacks.

To put this another way, if the Battlemaster does not use their dice for damage prior to a short rest then the Champion automatically averages more damage. If they do use dice for damage, then the Champion does more damage when the number of attacks made (X) is greater than 6 per die, and less damage on average when the number of attacks is less than 6 per die used in this fashion.

So, as a simple rule if you find that your combats end before your character makes 6 attacks, you want the increased burst of the Battlemaster. If not, then you probably want to look into the Champion.

Battlemaster takes better advantage of low damage weapons with few dice, Champion takes better advantage of high damage weapons with multiple dice (benefits from crits more).

It is a fairly simple equation, though your math is way off. Given that a critical adds the same amount of damage as a BM maneuver.
Assuming level 20:
Chance of a champion crit in any given round: 1-(.85)^4 = .48
So that's slightly less than one critical per 2 rounds
BM gets 6 dice, so thats 12 rounds. That alone means the champion needs at least 48 attacks to come out ahead. (I'll get to why 48 is the minimum rather than the maximum later)
But what does 12 rounds mean?
A typical fight lasts 2-4 rounds, so 12 rounds means 3-6 typical encounters (though in the name of differences in kind 3-4 is more likely)
After 3-4 typical encounters most of the party will need to rest, at which point the BM gets all the dice back.
Oh, and if the BM starts a fight with no dice, he gets one free.

Except this was a discussion at level 3. My math was accurate for the actual discussion being held.
Not that it matters given the other fatal flaws in reasoning, but you provided no actual basis for the estimated number of rounds per combat.

If the BM uses maneuvers with a medium-low degree of skill then it takes at least 48 attacks for the champion to get ahead. If the BM makes use of synergy and situational effects then that minimum ends up higher.

Now, as for why the number of rounds serves as a minimum rather than a maximum, it's because that's only the point where they become equal on paper, and doesn't account for the fact that the BM has a choice in the use of their abilities, and certainty is a big advantage vs uncertainty, even when everything else is equal.

There's no point in assuming any level of skill other than optimal if one is trying to determine what the break even point is.
At level 20 that requires no more than 10 rounds of combat (after taking into account action surges). Or 5 rounds per combat assuming a mere 2 combats per rest.

As I demonstrated before, Champion runs out of hp before it matches BM. And precision attack has the best DPR boost.

That is not demonstrated there. Nor for that matter does it make sense that the Champion would be using a 1d8 weapon as opposed to say, a 2d6 weapon given that critical hits benefit twice as much from such a switch. If both classes are using greatswords (and why wouldn't they?) the Champion pulls ahead far earlier than you guesstimated. And it is assumed the party is resting the standard 2 short rests between 1 long rest, and it is also assumed that, as this is a party, neither individual is being singularly targeted, though I'd agree that the Battlemaster has more durability if they expend superiority dice on defense instead of offense.

In a featless game, the second GWM/PM comes into play the Barbarian will out damage even without rage.

A Champion would have 3 ASI by that time and could have both the feats and GWFStyle and thanks to the bonus ASI be dealing +1 damage and +1 to hit.

Polearm Mastery ends up being a trap feat that pigeonholes characters into a very specific set of weapons, weapons which the vast majority of magic weapons do not apply to. Once magic items are on the table, it's not even close.

I hear you. You are 100% right, but crits are so random.

Averaged over the course of the game, it's more damage. Yes, it's uncontrolled, but that's why it's not burst damage (ala the Battlemaster), it's sustained damage.

bid

2016-11-15, 12:16 AM

I was measuring the value of the damage from superiority dice and how many attacks would be required (on average, of course) for the Champion to equal or surpass that extra damage. For the purposes of this question, utility is irrelevant.

No, it's based on a +4 str mod (+0 str mod testing revealed a similar number of attacks required to eclipse) wielding a Greatsword with the Great Weapon Master feat (criticals enable a bonus attack, so the Champion nets more benefit from this feature), it's 6 attacks per superiority die successfully used to increase damage. These dice can be used in ways that add no additional damage, so it won't always be that way.

The increased crit chance of the Champion at 3rd level increases their average damage per attack by 1/2 a point, I didn't test the average increase at 15% crit chance and I didn't test for advantage/disadvantage. The break even point for a single die is 6 attacks.
Basic fighter with GWM, Str18 and extra attack = 2 * (2d6+4) with the typical 65% hit (60% + 5% crit).

Basic fighter, no GWM = 2 * (2d6+4 * .6 + 4d6+4 * .05) = 15 DPR
Basic fighter, with GWM bonus = 15 + 7.5 * .05 = 15.375 DPR
Champion, no GWM = 2 * (2d6+4 * .55 + 4d6+4 * .1) = 15.7 DPR
Champion, with GWM bonus = 15.7 + 7.85 * .1 = 16.485 DPR
Champion = 1.11 DPR extra

I don't know why you keep going for the 4d8 extra damage when precision attack does much better. Not to mention SD can make GWM -5 / +10 double your extra DPR for 8 rounds or so. But I don't need it to destroy champion's DPR.
BM precision attack = 2d6+4 = 11 per SD
Miss-by-1 (every 20 attacks = 10 rounds) = 11 / 10 = +1.1 DPR for 40 rounds
Miss-by-2 (every 10 attacks = 5 rounds) = 11*(8+7)/*(8+8) / 5 = +2.0625 DPR for 20 rounds
Miss-by-3 (every 7 attacks = 3 rounds) = 11*(8+7+6)/*(8+8+8) / 3.33 = +2.8875 DPR for 13.3 rounds
After 20 rounds, BM did 41.25 extra damage (38.5 in 14 rounds).
Champion will reach this after 37 rounds (35 rounds).

Now for the opponents (assuming AC16 for the 2-hander)
Brown bear = (8+11) * .50 = 9.5 DPR
Dire wolf = 10 * .5 = 5 DPR
After 20 rounds, your basic fighter will have received more than 100 damage. Enough to die twice since you cannot take a short rest to let the BM reset his SD.

tl;dr yet again, the champion is clearly outclassed by the BM. The party runs out of hp before the BM runs out of superiority dice.

Mrglee

2016-11-15, 01:43 AM

A Champion would have 3 ASI by that time and could have both the feats and GWFStyle and thanks to the bonus ASI be dealing +1 damage and +1 to hit.
Irrelevant, Barbarian isn't missing due to the -5 with his free advantage. He will continue to average out more damage throughout his entire career, even before he can literally rage all day.
See Kryx's hard work on DPR proving you wrong here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=508652177
Even without rage active, Fighter falls short by between 20 to 10 dpr.

Polearm Mastery ends up being a trap feat that pigeonholes characters into a very specific set of weapons, weapons which the vast majority of magic weapons do not apply to. Once magic items are on the table, it's not even close.

...No? I mean, yeah, polearms can be limited on magic item options, but the only two you are really missing out on are flametongue and the cold one. If your DM is refusing to give you a Halberd+X but drops Holy Avengers like they are candy, that isn't a fault of the weapon type.

djreynolds

2016-11-15, 02:25 AM

I have played the champion without feats, I can honestly remember counting all of my critical hits on my fingers and toes.

Critical hits are also lackluster.

Defining the fighter's damage by the use of feats, that any other class can select, also isn't a real viable way of looking at the champion.

An OoD paladin's sacred weapon can basically take away that -5 to hit, and barbarians have a reliable source of advantage that helps with GWM.

Do not get me wrong, I have played champions and I do like them. But that's because I've played fighter's since the redbook, I never rolled well enough to play anything else in 1E.

5E is very dice dependent, and it shows a champion cannot critical hits as a steady source of damage.

I use shield master with my champion, but it is the power of that feat and the feat's ability, if used wisely, to give a steady source of advantage.

The champion archetype, until 18th level, is not as good as EK or BM. Survivor is really good, but that is 18 levels of play it takes to get to.

Having an archetype around because it is easy to play, isn't a reason.

LordVonDerp

2016-11-15, 12:10 PM

Let's look:

I didn't ignore HP loss, I only calculated out the average damage dealt per attack, determined the average damage dealt per round, then did a comparison

Exactly, you ignored the fact that the champion takes damage until eventually needing to rest, which reduces their sustained damage relative to the BM

The estimated number of rounds per combat would be 10, which is easily achievable in a day at level 3. By level 5 it's only 8 rounds.

It's 10 rounds at level 20, and each additional attack decreases the number of rounds needed to break even.

I was measuring the value of the damage from superiority dice and how many attacks would be required (on average, of course) for the Champion to equal or surpass that extra damage. For the purposes of this question, utility is irrelevant.
Utility means that Bm is better than champion if damage is equal.

it's 6 attacks per superiority die successfully used to increase damage. These dice can be used in ways that add no additional damage, so it won't always be that way.

This is a fallacy. Any use of superiority dice has to be weighed against doing extra damage, so we have to assume that any such use would be better (not worse) than simply doing damage.

The increased crit chance of the Champion at 3rd level increases their average damage per attack by 1/2 a point, I didn't test the average increase at 15% crit chance and I didn't test for advantage/disadvantage. The break even point for a single die is 6 attacks.

1-(.9)^7 = .48
At that point one die is roughly equal to half a critical, so that seems about right.

To put this another way, if the Battlemaster does not use their dice for damage prior to a short rest then the Champion automatically averages more damage. If they do use dice for damage, then the Champion does more damage when the number of attacks made (X) is greater than 6 per die, and less damage on average when the number of attacks is less than 6 per die used in this fashion.

Another fallacy. If BM uses dice regularly then extra dice left over simply means more rests than normal, which helps BM, not champion.

Except this was a discussion at level 3. My math was accurate for the actual discussion being held.
Not that it matters given the other fatal flaws in reasoning, but you provided no actual basis for the estimated number of rounds per combat.
A) this discussion was a general BM vs Champion
B) combat length is a matter of basic design, too long and it feels tedious, too short and why bother?

There's no point in assuming any level of skill other than optimal if one is trying to determine what the break even point is.
Except then we have to account for the following
-enviromental damage
-the value of controlled damage
-the extra damage from knocking people prone.
-other synergy

Those are all useful, and certainly increase the value of a well played BM, but they're also hard to quantify and lead to people claiming that we shouldn't assume the BM is playing perfectly.

At level 20 that requires no more* than 10 rounds of combat (after taking into account action surges). Or 5 rounds per combat assuming a mere 2 combats per rest.

Correction: no LESS than 10 rounds.
Also 5 rounds is a bit high for a non-boss fight, 2-4 is more realistic.

Polearm Mastery ends up being a trap feat that pigeonholes characters into a very specific set of weapons, weapons which the vast majority of magic weapons do not apply to. Once magic items are on the table*, it's not even close.

*Magic weapons are not assumed and as such not a factor in game balance (whether or not that's actually true is a different question, but it's the assumption)

Averaged over the course of the game, it's more damage. Yes, it's uncontrolled, but that's why it's not burst damage (ala the Battlemaster), it's sustained damage.

LordVonDerp

2016-11-15, 12:26 PM

...No? I mean, yeah, polearms can be limited on magic item options, but the only two you are really missing out on are flametongue and the cold one. If your DM is refusing to give you a Halberd+X but drops Holy Avengers like they are candy, that isn't a fault of the weapon type.

Yeah, let's not forget that polearms were the the most common type of weapon basically up until ww2.

So if anything you should expect an abundance of magic Polearms
Also, why not a flametongue glaive?

Vogonjeltz

2016-11-16, 07:57 PM

Basic fighter with GWM, Str18 and extra attack = 2 * (2d6+4) with the typical 65% hit (60% + 5% crit).

Basic fighter, no GWM = 2 * (2d6+4 * .6 + 4d6+4 * .05) = 15 DPR
Basic fighter, with GWM bonus = 15 + 7.5 * .05 = 15.375 DPR
Champion, no GWM = 2 * (2d6+4 * .55 + 4d6+4 * .1) = 15.7 DPR
Champion, with GWM bonus = 15.7 + 7.85 * .1 = 16.485 DPR
Champion = 1.11 DPR extra

I don't know why you keep going for the 4d8 extra damage when precision attack does much better. Not to mention SD can make GWM -5 / +10 double your extra DPR for 8 rounds or so. But I don't need it to destroy champion's DPR.
BM precision attack = 2d6+4 = 11 per SD
Miss-by-1 (every 20 attacks = 10 rounds) = 11 / 10 = +1.1 DPR for 40 rounds
Miss-by-2 (every 10 attacks = 5 rounds) = 11*(8+7)/*(8+8) / 5 = +2.0625 DPR for 20 rounds
Miss-by-3 (every 7 attacks = 3 rounds) = 11*(8+7+6)/*(8+8+8) / 3.33 = +2.8875 DPR for 13.3 rounds
After 20 rounds, BM did 41.25 extra damage (38.5 in 14 rounds).
Champion will reach this after 37 rounds (35 rounds).

Now for the opponents (assuming AC16 for the 2-hander)
Brown bear = (8+11) * .50 = 9.5 DPR
Dire wolf = 10 * .5 = 5 DPR
After 20 rounds, your basic fighter will have received more than 100 damage. Enough to die twice since you cannot take a short rest to let the BM reset his SD.

tl;dr yet again, the champion is clearly outclassed by the BM. The party runs out of hp before the BM runs out of superiority dice.

So you're assuming...level 5? (unstated)

Also, against a Brown Bear the Fighter with 18 str and Extra Attack (level 5 at least) would have a +7 to hit against AC 11. That means they only miss on 3 rolls (1, 2, or 3) giving them an 85% hit chance, not the 65% you based your calculations on. With GWM the Brown Bear very likely dies before they even get a turn. (+28 damage from GWM they only have 34 hit points and the average of 2d6 is 7 for a total of 42 damage on average.)

And that's in a 1 on 1 scenario. 4 v 1 it is very unlikely that the Bear gets a turn. Direwolf has marginally more survivability, but again, probably doesn't get a turn if there's only one.

Irrelevant, Barbarian isn't missing due to the -5 with his free advantage. He will continue to average out more damage throughout his entire career, even before he can literally rage all day.
See Kryx's hard work on DPR proving you wrong here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=508652177
Even without rage active, Fighter falls short by between 20 to 10 dpr.

You should note the houserules, assumptions, and errors before relying on that spreadsheet as a crutch. GIGO.

...No? I mean, yeah, polearms can be limited on magic item options, but the only two you are really missing out on are flametongue and the cold one. If your DM is refusing to give you a Halberd+X but drops Holy Avengers like they are candy, that isn't a fault of the weapon type.

Magic Item distribution, by default, is random. So yeah, it's almost certain no Halberd+X happens unless divine intervention (DM fiat) happens.

Exactly, you ignored the fact that the champion takes damage until eventually needing to rest, which reduces their sustained damage relative to the BM

The two short rests are built in, it's assumed they are happening in the calculation already.

This is a fallacy. Any use of superiority dice has to be weighed against doing extra damage, so we have to assume that any such use would be better (not worse) than simply doing damage.

The hell we can. Players don't make perfect choices with perfect information. If the character uses the die for something other than damage it could very well be an inferior or an important use, but the one thing we know for certain is that it decreases their damage output.

Another fallacy. If BM uses dice regularly then extra dice left over simply means more rests than normal, which helps BM, not champion.

Two short rests on average, that's all. No assumption can be made that additional rests will be available.

A) this discussion was a general BM vs Champion
B) combat length is a matter of basic design, too long and it feels tedious, too short and why bother?

And it was specific to level 3. You're only contributing confusion if you switch gears to a situation that isn't applicable to the discussion at hand.

Correction: no LESS than 10 rounds.
Also 5 rounds is a bit high for a non-boss fight, 2-4 is more realistic.

No, I meant no more than, which was correct.

*Magic weapons are not assumed and as such not a factor in game balance (whether or not that's actually true is a different question, but it's the assumption)

In balancing WotC didn't assume them, but if we use the default rules of the game, they will be in effect and can be assumed by browsing treasure hoard tables as ascribed to the appropriate CR enemies.

Point being, magic items are assumed to be in effect even in low magic campaigns (as demonstrated in the DMG description of starting equipment at various levels for various styles of campaign).

GraakosGraakos

2016-11-16, 08:45 PM

I agree with all the input. I want my players to have fun.

I've told him, if you do not like the champion, you can change.

And I get it, when the paladin next to you crushes a monster... you can feel inept.

If I hear the term OP one more time at my table...

I like the champion archetype, but then beauty is in the eye of beholder. For me the champion is closest to the everyman as you are going to get.

Its just not flashy.

He realizes it's a cooperative storytelling game, right? Not a match of Battlefield? I get that it feels good to feel flashy and cool, but maybe he needs to learn how to roleplay his rollplay a little better?

When one of my players picked champion and the other picked wizard, the champion started narrating his attacks more. It wasn't "I hit him with my sword I guess" it was "I fake him out to the right, sweep low under his guard, and cut for his neck" and "I take out my dagger, pull him close to me (gets the grapple check) okay, now I push the dagger inch by inch to his throat" and stuff. He made his own narrative fun with a class that offers a decent chassis for straight power. Yeah, your sword growing beautiful roses and thorns that slash against a dude (like my ancients paladin player does) or slitting a dudes throat in perfect silence (shadow monk) is cool, but the fun is where you make it. That's the whole point of d&d over any other game.

He saw that the rules as written would allow him to do good damage between Action Surge and Improved Critical, then added fluff that backed up the mechanical advantage. Champion is the Olympic level fencer/wrestler/if they had gladiatorial combat in the Olympics or whatever. So he ran with it. His fun didn't come from having a more solid character mechanically, as again, the Champion has a solid mechanical chassis. It came from him having a solid character conceptually, i.e. a dirty talking pit fighter half elf from the slums that learned the value of helping others when he himself was helped by others.

Maybe my table just has a values dissonance over others, but we're all about fluffing up your moves (while not dictating your actions without rolling; everything is an attempt, and attempts are either blocked by other people or stalled by your own bad luck) My legitimate favorite fighter is the champion. I think it encourages creativity and leaves lots of room for background to be more than just two free skills, and race to be more than a +2/+1 and a power sometimes.

bid

2016-11-16, 09:32 PM

So you're assuming...level 5? (unstated)
Well, I had to give BM some handicap or champion will need 70+ rounds of combat to match.

Also, against a Brown Bear the Fighter with 18 str and Extra Attack (level 5 at least) would have a +7 to hit against AC 11.
Irrelevant. Those beasts were used to evaluate how fast the fighters hp would go down in a typical combat. Losing 5 hp per round seems fair as a first approximation.

Since level 5 fighters are in the 40-50 hp range, we can conclude they need a short rest after 10 rounds of combat or so. {Once again, taking the upper limit to handicap BM.}

Now, notice the jeering dissonance here? 10 rounds between short rests is way less than the 20 rounds before BM is out of resources or the 35 rounds before champion catches up on overall damage.

Mrglee

2016-11-17, 03:39 AM

You should note the houserules, assumptions, and errors before relying on that spreadsheet as a crutch. GIGO.
The houserules are kept on the right side of the chart and only hurt the barbarian. Straight up RAW is on the left. The assumptions affect both equally(damage difference is greater than rage bonus damage for most, though not all levels, and both are melee). Math errors are just as likely in whatever equation you are claiming to use, I prefer to use the one that regularly gets tested and checked.

Magic Item distribution, by default, is random. So yeah, it's almost certain no Halberd+X happens unless divine intervention (DM fiat) happens.
On magic item table F, four numbers take up magical melee weapons that aren't +1s which takes up fifteenth. Table G has eleven weapons that PAM doesn't qualify for and fourteen that do. Table H has four non PAM qualified weapons and fifteenth that are. Table I has a massive five, the matching for PAM qualifying weapons.
Yes, it is less likely to get a PAM qualified MI, but not really that much less likely, and really, only flametongue and icebrand are losses. If you DM is never dropping Magic PAM weapons ever, that has more to do with him than the game. Being a +1 down doesn't make up for a free bonus attack and a fairly reliable reaction attack.

Vogonjeltz

2016-11-17, 07:38 PM

Well, I had to give BM some handicap or champion will need 70+ rounds of combat to match.

As critical range rises and number of attacks rises the gap closes for the Champion. Going from a d8 to a d12 is a only +2 damage per die, and yes they gain 2 more dice but that's still less than the damage from the crits. The big advantage of the Battlemaster is the flexibility and on demand nature of the dice, not the total damage output.

i.e. (GWF, greatsword/maul, 20 str, 4 attacks)
(((2d6+5) * 5) + ((4d6+5)*1))/20 = 4.416667 dpr

champ:
(((2d6+5) * 3) + ((4d6+5)*3))/20 = 5.25 dpr

.83333333 difference is a 46 round gap to overcome the 39 average damage from 6d12 in superiority dice, or 7 rounds per die used. Action surges can drop this by a further 2 rounds to 44 rounds. If both sides have GWM the Champion benefits more from the critical hit bonus attack than the Battlemaster, getting a bonus attack 15% of the time, raising their DPR to 6.0375 vs the BM who crits 5% raises theirs to 4.6375, net this results in a 27 round game (25 when action surge is taken into account)

If both are employing GWM for the +10, the equations in this case would be skewed as the regular to hit loss would disproportionately favor the Champion(skipping parens):
2d6+15*0 + 4d6+15*1/20 = 1.583333 (+5% bonus attack = 1.6625 dpr)

2d6+15*0 + 4d6+15*3/20 = 4.75 (+15% bonus attack = 5.4625 dpr)

3.8 net in favor of champion, results in Champion overcoming damage output of the superiority dice in only 10.26 rounds (8 rounds with action surges) or 1.7 rounds per die.

Let's play with the equation a little, lowering the AC threshold so that there are 10 regular hits instead of the initially assumed 5.
BM: 2d6+5*10 + 4d6+5*1/20 = 7.75 + .05*7.75 = 8.1375 dpr
BMGWM: 2d6+15*5 + 4d6+15*1/20 = 7.4166667 + .05*7.4166667 = 7.787500035
11 = 8.8375
6 = 9.0125
12 = 9.5375
7 = 10.2375
15 = 141.6667+80/20 = 11.08333 = 11.6375 dpr
10 = 150 + 100/20 = 12.5 = 13.125 dpr

As we can see, the point where BM benefits from GWM is when would have at least 11 regular hits without it, or adjusted AC 9. So at 20 with a +11 to hit, that would be AC 20 or less, above that and it's not worth using the -5/+10 feature.

Champions break point is the same:
2d6+5*8 + 4d6+5*3/20 = 9.870833 (+1.73333)
2d6+15*3 + 4d6+15 *3/20 = 9.4875 (+1.699999965)

9 = 10.6375 (+1.8 over BM)
4 = 10.82917 (+1.81667 over BM)

10 = 11.404167 (+1.86667 over BM)
5 = 12.170833 (+1.93333 over BM)

The break point for using GWM is the same for both subclasses, but the Champ eclipses the Battlemaster markedly faster when the targets are harder to hit. The point being, the Battlemaster doesn't need a "handicap", they already do less damage output absent the use of superiority dice which are overcome in a matter of rounds.

Irrelevant. Those beasts were used to evaluate how fast the fighters hp would go down in a typical combat. Losing 5 hp per round seems fair as a first approximation.

Since level 5 fighters are in the 40-50 hp range, we can conclude they need a short rest after 10 rounds of combat or so. {Once again, taking the upper limit to handicap BM.}

Now, notice the jeering dissonance here? 10 rounds between short rests is way less than the 20 rounds before BM is out of resources or the 35 rounds before champion catches up on overall damage.

If the combatants aren't taking damage because they annihilate the opponent before the opponent gets a turn, yeah, it makes a difference. As shown, the gap decreases as both Fighter archetypes level up. And of course, circumstances could change the equations (i.e. if there's a way to get advantage, or if there are bonus dice, or magic weaponry is in effect) reducing the number of rounds required further.

The houserules are kept on the right side of the chart and only hurt the barbarian. Straight up RAW is on the left. The assumptions affect both equally(damage difference is greater than rage bonus damage for most, though not all levels, and both are melee). Math errors are just as likely in whatever equation you are claiming to use, I prefer to use the one that regularly gets tested and checked.

/shrug I don't trust his ability to generate a spreadsheet without errors enough to act as if it were the truth.

On magic item table F, four numbers take up magical melee weapons that aren't +1s which takes up fifteenth. Table G has eleven weapons that PAM doesn't qualify for and fourteen that do. Table H has four non PAM qualified weapons and fifteenth that are. Table I has a massive five, the matching for PAM qualifying weapons.
Yes, it is less likely to get a PAM qualified MI, but not really that much less likely, and really, only flametongue and icebrand are losses. If you DM is never dropping Magic PAM weapons ever, that has more to do with him than the game. Being a +1 down doesn't make up for a free bonus attack and a fairly reliable reaction attack.

Except, magic weapon means, more likely than anything, not a PAM appropriate weapon.
Of the 36 types of weapons which could be magic (excluding nets) there are 3 weapons (Glaive, Halberd, Quarterstaff) to which the bonus action from PAM applies.

Table F has a 15% of generating a weapon which could be one of those 3 weapon types, for a net 1.25% chance of getting one of those weapons as a magic item.
The alternative (any other magic weapon) is 17.75% when you consider the Sword of Vengeance possibility.

Table G is a 1% chance vs 22% for other

Table H is 4.916% vs 19.083% other.

Table I is 0% vs 29% other.

At 0-4 a hoard has a 0.00405 (.4%) chance of a PAM weapon.
At 5-10 it rises to 0.0068498 (.6%)
At 11-16 an astounding 0.01529 (1.529%)! Why the probability of getting one more than doubled. How exciting!
At 17+ there's a 0.010832 (1.0832%), a sad 30% decline from those heady glory days when there was a 1.5% chance of finding a PAM magic weapon in one of those treasure hordes.

Yeah, abysmal prospects for finding that niche weapon.

bid

2016-11-17, 10:32 PM

i.e. (GWF, greatsword/maul, 20 str, 4 attacks)
(((2d6+5) * 5) + ((4d6+5)*1))/20 = 4.416667 dpr

champ:
(((2d6+5) * 3) + ((4d6+5)*3))/20 = 5.25 dpr
Wait, you are doing a level 20 analysis in a thread about how weak champion is below level 10.
Against a creature with AC26 just so half your hits are crits?

.83333333 difference is a 46 round gap to overcome the 39 average damage from 6d12 in superiority dice, or 7 rounds per die used.
Yet again you refuse to use precision attacks which would yield 6 * 2d6+5 = 72 average (or 63 if off-by-4).

And 46 rounds, at 5 rounds per battle, is 9 encounters per day.

If both are employing GWM for the +10, the equations in this case would be skewed as the regular to hit loss would disproportionately favor the Champion(skipping parens):
2d6+15*0 + 4d6+15*1/20 = 1.583333 (+5% bonus attack = 1.6625 dpr)

2d6+15*0 + 4d6+15*3/20 = 4.75 (+15% bonus attack = 5.4625 dpr)
So AC is so high that you can only hit if you crit. Congratulations!

And your extra 5% from GWM should be (1 - .95^4) = 18.5% if you're still doing level 20.

BM: 2d6+5*10 + 4d6+5*1/20 = 7.75 + .05*7.75 = 8.1375 dpr
BMGWM: 2d6+15*5 + 4d6+15*1/20 = 7.4166667 + .05*7.4166667 = 7.787500035

As we can see, the point where BM benefits from GWM is when would have at least 11 regular hits without it, or adjusted AC 9. So at 20 with a +11 to hit, that would be AC 20 or less, above that and it's not worth using the -5/+10 feature.
Here again, you aren't using precision attacks to convert misses into hits.

Assuming d12 SD (since it became level 20), using the off-by-4 approach adds (12+11+10+9)/12 = 3.5 extra points to the attack rolls:
BM: 2d6+5*13.5 + 4d6+5*1/20 = 8.1 + .95 = 9.05 dpr
BMGWM: 2d6+15*8.5 + 4d6+15*1/20 = 9.35 + 1.45 = 10.8 dpr

And that .55 hit is still lower than the accepted .65 hit at the upper levels.

Mrglee

2016-11-18, 01:12 AM

/shrug I don't trust his ability to generate a spreadsheet without errors enough to act as if it were the truth.
Good thing he has been able to update and check it 38 times since it came out. So you know, math gets doubled checked. Especially when the first time you showed math was in this post, and it was wrong.

Except, magic weapon means, more likely than anything, not a PAM appropriate weapon.
Of the 36 types of weapons which could be magic (excluding nets) there are 3 weapons (Glaive, Halberd, Quarterstaff) to which the bonus action from PAM applies.

Table F has a 15% of generating a weapon which could be one of those 3 weapon types, for a net 1.25% chance of getting one of those weapons as a magic item.
The alternative (any other magic weapon) is 17.75% when you consider the Sword of Vengeance possibility.

Table G is a 1% chance vs 22% for other

Table H is 4.916% vs 19.083% other.

Table I is 0% vs 29% other.

At 0-4 a hoard has a 0.00405 (.4%) chance of a PAM weapon.
At 5-10 it rises to 0.0068498 (.6%)
At 11-16 an astounding 0.01529 (1.529%)! Why the probability of getting one more than doubled. How exciting!
At 17+ there's a 0.010832 (1.0832%), a sad 30% decline from those heady glory days when there was a 1.5% chance of finding a PAM magic weapon in one of those treasure hordes.

Yeah, abysmal prospects for finding that niche weapon.
One, no rules for determining random weapons. Default is DM's choice for all weapons that don't come with a default type. There is also no random table for them, thus it can't really be assumed the random chance they show up. On top of that, several of those magic items are specifically staffs, which qualify for QS, so even then your odds are way off. And even them, in most cases, PAM is better than a magic weapon, because a BA and reliably OoA is going to be far more damage than a +1.
Please come back when you have an argument that doesn't rely on doing math wrong, picking an AC higher than Tiatmat's, and isn't just generally full of holes.

djreynolds

2016-11-18, 02:03 AM

Critical hits are too random to count on, and you are not doing max damage on them. Critical hits for a champion are not exciting at all.

And a champion needs a steady source of advantage and its not always easy.

A battlemaster when he crits, can throw in SD on top if he has them.

And a battlemaster has precision also to ensure his GWM lands.

A battlemaster does more reliable damage when GWM or SS are paired with precision.

I'm currently running a battlemaster/swashbuckler with just shield master and he puts out plenty of damage with just duelist and sneak attack.

I have played champion without feats, I understand the spreadsheet math... but either you are lucky with the dice or not.

When I play a champion, I'm there personally for the survivor feature... not critical hits. I'm there to tank and hold the enemy and get beat up and my team mates are there to kill.

Survivor is the champion's archetypes saving grace, it is very powerful. But 18th level is far away.

Vogonjeltz

2016-12-01, 08:16 PM

Wait, you are doing a level 20 analysis in a thread about how weak champion is below level 10.
Against a creature with AC26 just so half your hits are crits?

As I stated in the part you failed to quote, the preface that gave context to the math, it was a comparison of the value change as they rise in level and ability.

Yet again you refuse to use precision attacks which would yield 6 * 2d6+5 = 72 average (or 63 if off-by-4).

And 46 rounds, at 5 rounds per battle, is 9 encounters per day.

The value of precision attack fluctuates depending on how much of a miss it was by; i.e. if operating on a d12 and the miss was by 12 points there's a 1/12 chance of success, leading to 1.11 damage per die (As there are 11 possible misses at that point), and a maximum value of the 2d6+5 if the miss was off by a single point. This puts the average value at more along the lines of: ~7.61 assuming a 65% hit chance were in effect, which is only about half as valuable as the 2d6+5+1d12 (~14.625 after taking into account crit chance and hit chance and GWFStyle) that Riposte could offer.

46 rounds divided by 8 encounters would be 5.75 rounds per encounter, which is a very low bar.
7.6 rounds for 6 encounters (which should be harder and likely to last several rounds longer), so this checks out as a reasonable break point.

Good thing he has been able to update and check it 38 times since it came out. So you know, math gets doubled checked. Especially when the first time you showed math was in this post, and it was wrong.

Where did you think there was an error?

One, no rules for determining random weapons. Default is DM's choice for all weapons that don't come with a default type. There is also no random table for them, thus it can't really be assumed the random chance they show up. On top of that, several of those magic items are specifically staffs, which qualify for QS, so even then your odds are way off. And even them, in most cases, PAM is better than a magic weapon, because a BA and reliably OoA is going to be far more damage than a +1.
Please come back when you have an argument that doesn't rely on doing math wrong, picking an AC higher than Tiatmat's, and isn't just generally full of holes.

Yes there is no rule for assigning a weapon when it could apply to many types, and because of that there are numerous possible outcomes even when a Halberd would be a legitimate choice.

It should probably go without saying at this point, but DMs are of course free to deviate from the standard procedures.

Furthermore, I accounted for staves. There's a miniscule chance of getting a PAM weapon and the math given is correct.

If you think you've noticed a flaw, please point it out, but in this particular case I already stated that I had accounted for that.

You even quoted it.

bid

2016-12-01, 09:16 PM

46 rounds divided by 8 encounters would be 5.75 rounds per encounter, which is a very low bar.
7.6 rounds for 6 encounters (which should be harder and likely to last several rounds longer), so this checks out as a reasonable break point.
That's weird, none of my battles last more than 5 rounds. Is this another AC18 argument?

Well, there's a decisive demonstration in another thread. If you don't have actual facts to reverse it, there's no point in beating a dead horse.

Vogonjeltz

2016-12-02, 05:45 PM

That's weird, none of my battles last more than 5 rounds. Is this another AC18 argument?

Well, there's a decisive demonstration in another thread. If you don't have actual facts to reverse it, there's no point in beating a dead horse.

The only conclusion I can draw from your statement is that your engage only in easy or below easy combats.

If you want to provide some evidence, by all means, present it, don't just mumble something about there being it somewhere.

Here, it would look like this:

Party of Four @3rd level

Medium Battle would be: 1 Knight (AC 18, 20 vs 1 melee attack per round, 52 hit points) to hit requires a 13+ roll (assuming +5 attack mod at level 3); But the Knight can parry to increase its AC by 2, making it possible to negate the first roll of 13/14.

Let's say it's the classic party, Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard
Damage would be approximately:
F 2d6+3 (11.3 x .25 = 2.833/round)
C 1d8 (dex save, +0 for 4.5 x .65 = 2.925) or 1d6+2 (5.5 x .2 = 1.1/round)
R 3d6+3 (13.5 x .25 = 3.375/round)
W 1d10 (5.5 x .25 = 1.375/round)
Total: 10.508/round; 5 rounds.

That's not taking into account outgoing damage, however. Knight attacks twice, dealing 2d6+3 (10) at +5 to hit. Rogue with leather armor and +3 dex mod only has 14 AC, so Knight hits on 9+, taking 11 damage on average per round the Rogue with 24 hit points is probably down in 3 rounds, maybe 2. If down on round 2 and not healed, immediately, Rogue dies on round 3. If Rogue only applies damage for 2 rounds, duration changes to 6.3 rounds. Wizard with only 20 hp and base AC of 12 (10+dex) is being hit on a 7+, lasts only 2 rounds, possibly 1, and again would also be dead. This extends the combat (say it with me) yet another round.

After 2 rounds: 21.016 - Rogue down (could be dead). (30.984 remain)
After 2 rounds: 14.266 - Wizard down (maybe dead). (16.718 remain)
After 2 more rounds: 11.516 (5.202 remain); Cleric and Fighter are both tough enough (16-18 AC; 24 and 30 hp respectively) that it seems unlikely the Knight would drop one, but he could drop the Cleric within 3 rounds. Closing with the Cleric would force a switch to the less effective mace (1.1/round) instead of the situationally superior sacred flame (2.925/round) which reduces incoming damage to 3.933/round; this means the Knight could survive another 3 rounds.

So this one medium fight, on average mind, lasts 9 rounds unless the adventurers expend some form of resources to prevent attrition. How might they go about that? Well, the Rogue would have to be healed or withdraw, otherwise he can be chased down and killed. A cleric could heal for a total of 54 damage if they turn all their spell slots into healing, but that would also deprive them of their attacking (unless they use healing word which would drop the value down to 38 damage mitigated; so 16 less healing in return for 17.55 damage dealt, possibly a fair trade). Still, even using cure wounds won't prevent the Rogue from being knocked out repeatedly, depriving them of their turn.

Or Let's say it's a Hard fight:
2 Bandit captains (450 ea). Or 1 Bandit Captain (450) + 7 bandits (25 ea).

Captain has 65 hp, AC 15 requires 3 rounds each to be brought down; or 6 rounds total for 2, assuming zero casualties.
6.215
2.925
7.425
3.025
19.59 = 3 rounds
7 bandits have 11 hp and ac 12 requiring 2 rounds for the Fighter and Rogue to bring each one down, 3 rounds for a mage and 4 rounds for the cleric.
Total of 7 rounds assuming zero casualties (which seems improbable with 10 attacks incoming to the party each round).

bid

2016-12-02, 06:28 PM

Party of Four @3rd level
That was a good example, thank you.
And yes, it would take 35ish attacks to bring them down without AoE.

Now your 46 rounds were for level 20 characters.

Ravinsild

2016-12-02, 07:07 PM

Nobody ever wins when players get into an arms race with eachother, because it makes the DM up his game, and the DM can up his game FAR more than the players can.

5 Terrasques appear. Your move players :^)

MBControl

2016-12-02, 07:18 PM

No need to get rash. No need to kill the player.

You will need to set limits and boundaries with your player. It is your responsibility to create a fair and challenging environment for your game. If you feel you need to curtail an ability, or equipment, etc, in order to do this, then you need to. I'm not aware of the situation that is causing this, but if an item is causing a problem, than deal with the item instead of killing the character. Ideally you could put the player in a position to sacrifice the item instead of just destroying it. If it is a feat or something of the like, you may just have to make the call.

IMPORTANT. Do not do any of these things without discussing and explaining to the player why you are doing it. Your best case scenario is that you can get them on board, and avoid any resentment.

The bottom line, you are the one that makes the call. You decide what serves the game and all the players involved, and do that. Sometimes the player can't handle that, and that sucks, but some people don't always fit the playstyle of the group.

Inchoroi

2016-12-02, 07:25 PM

Please stop spreading this lie.

This probably sums up what the champion player is feeling.

Champion does not need fixing. Mechanically, it is perfectly fine. Will most people like it? Absolutely not, because it's too simple.

R.Shackleford

2016-12-02, 07:35 PM

The Champion class needs no fixing in the first place. It was a bad idea to allow him to homebrew, and it's still not late to make him stop giving suggestions that may ruin the fun for others.

Nothing feels worse in games than feeling someone else is cheating.

This is completely false.

There are a multitude of reasons that make the Champion a horrid class option (one reason is that it gets nothing special) but more importantly, homebrew should always be encouraged.

Homebrew allows to get away from the absolute monotony that the lack of options of 5e gives us. Mechanically, 5e is pathetic in terms of the number of options for a game of this age, and keeping players away from homebrew is a sure fire way to get people to leave the game.

Ravinsild

2016-12-02, 07:39 PM

If I can give some insight as someone who didn't realize D&D 5e (I thought it was called D&D Next, that's the last I had heard of it) came out until last week:

When reading through the PHB it looked to me at a glance that the Champion was the DPS option. Eldritch Knight seemed like the Swordmage option with utility > damage and the Battlemaster honestly seemed like the Warlord (from 4e) option - the leader who isn't focused on damage but manuevers and tactics and buffing. Maybe the player in question had the same initial impressions. After reading this thread I realize the Champion isn't that and the Battlemaster isn't just a 4e Warlord but it looked like that from a 4e player's mindset without digging in deeper.

AdmiralCatticus

2016-12-03, 04:05 AM

Now he wants survivor earlier.

His idea is, at 3rd level you get a 1d4 + con, and later 1d6, and then 1d8 and then 1d10.

Should I consider this, or just kill his champion.

As far as I'm concerned, you should just flat out reject his request and be sure he understands the ruling is final. You are the mediator as DM. What they are requesting is too good. Don't allow it. But don't kill them.

The root of the issue, as I understand it, is that they are fishing you for broken rule adjustments because they like getting more powerful characters. If you kill them they'll just keep trying to get you to do the same thing, with other characters. I could be wrong, but their behavior simply seems exactly like that. Help them feel better about their character by suggesting multiclass, providing magic items to the group, or suggesting home brew edits which, under your revision seem to be balanced. But don't make it into a medieval punishment thing.

Zalabim

2016-12-03, 04:55 AM

Party of Four @3rd level

Medium Battle would be: 1 Knight (AC 18, 20 vs 1 melee attack per round, 52 hit points) to hit requires a 13+ roll (assuming +5 attack mod at level 3); But the Knight can parry to increase its AC by 2, making it possible to negate the first roll of 13/14.

Let's say it's the classic party, Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard
Damage would be approximately:
F 2d6+3 (11.3 x .25 = 2.833/round)
C 1d8 (dex save, +0 for 4.5 x .65 = 2.925) or 1d6+2 (5.5 x .2 = 1.1/round)
R 3d6+3 (13.5 x .25 = 3.375/round)
W 1d10 (5.5 x .25 = 1.375/round)
Total: 10.508/round; 5 rounds.
You know that most characters are going to hit AC 18 on a roll of 13 or 14, so that means they miss on a 12. They miss 60% of the time. So they hit 40% of the time. So why are you calculating damage like they hit 25% of the time?

Fixing the numbers, and accounting for parry as best I can:
R 3d6+3 (24*.05+13.5*.25=4.575) Using a shortsword. Highest Dex, so probably goes first compared to the knight going last. Always faces a parry ready.
R 1d4+2d6 ((19*.05+9.5*.35)*.1+(19*.05+9.5*.25)*.6=2.4225) Off-hand Dagger used only when shortsword misses.
W 1d10 ((11*.05+5.5*.35)*=2.475) Using firebolt, probably has next highest dexterity, and can't parry ranged attacks.
F 2d6+3 ((19.66~*.05+11.33~*.35)*.16+(19.66~*.05+11.33~*.2 5)*.84=3.998) Using a greatsword, and there's an 84% chance that parry wasn't used so far.
C 1d8 (4.5*.6=2.7) Sacred Flame, which can be used just fine in melee range and doesn't care about parry.
4.575+2.4225+2.475+3.998+2.7=16.1705
52/16.1705=3.215 rounds.

That's not taking into account outgoing damage, however. Knight attacks twice, dealing 2d6+3 (10) at +5 to hit. Rogue with leather armor and +3 dex mod only has 14 AC, so Knight hits on 9+, taking 1112 damage on average per round the Rogue with 24 hit points is probably down in 3 rounds, maybe 2. If down on round 2 and not healed, immediately, Rogue dies on round 3. If Rogue only applies damage for 2 rounds,
If rogue only applies damage for 2 rounds, the remaining fight takes about 2.2 more rounds for a total fight length of 4.2 rounds, on average, when the party is totally slacking. More likely the rogue can disengage on one or more rounds and force the knight to spread damage to the heavily armored PCs or take more damage chasing the rogue. Either way, the fight probably ends before round 5.

Baptor

2016-12-04, 12:56 AM

I haven't really seen this suggestion yet but one of the old school tricks is just to give the underpowered player a cool magic item or two. That way he's happy but you don't set a dangerous precedent for future champs.

djreynolds

2016-12-04, 07:20 AM

I let him change to monster slayer fighter, it gives him some powerful choices

I have personally played the champion, its okay. It could use some changes.... but survivor is awesome.

I know people say champion is for beginners, but for me it is a nice challenge to play one, you must be creative and really understand all you can do. I survived versus a dragon with the dodge action, survivor and defensive duelist and shield master and the lucky feat...

Ryuu Hayato

2016-12-04, 08:57 PM

I was been creating a character, just for fun. I created a champion fighter (lvl 20):

STR 20
DEX 10
CON 20
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 10

Variant Human, resilient (wis), great weapon master, heavy armor master, tough.
Fighting Style: Defense and Great Weapon Fighting.

HP: 264
-3 nonmagical weapon.

With 132 HP, you will gain +10 HP, and negate 3 damage from nonmagical weapon. You're a ridiculous tank, and have so much damage. A lvl 20 barbarian will lost, on average, 13 turns to kill you. And, you'll just need 8~10 to kill him.

djreynolds

2016-12-04, 11:51 PM

How was that champion you played, what feat did you end up grabbing?

Ryuu Hayato

2016-12-05, 01:07 AM

STR 15
CON 14
WIS 13
CHA 10
INT 10
DEX 10

V. Human plus 1 on STR and CON. Feat you'll take resilient wis, so plus 1 on wis.

STR 16
CON 15
WIS 14
CHA 10
INT 10
DEX 10

You'll put +3 on STR, and +5 on CON. Later, you'll take HAM, so +1 on STR (now 20 STR); GWM and Tough.

You'll have 19 AC (plate + defensive style), GWF for 8,3+5 average damage. The build shine when you have half of your HP. Heavy Armor Master shine when you receive multiples attacks, like 3 or 4, because you will negate up to 12 damage, and will restore 10 HP.

djreynolds

2016-12-05, 01:36 AM

No, the one you posted a thread on

Ryuu Hayato

2016-12-05, 08:54 AM

No, the one you posted a thread on

V. Human - Fighter Champion LVL 16
STR 20
CON 18
DEX 14
WIS 12
CHA 12
INT 10

Feats: Resilient Wis, GWM.
Skills: Persuation, Intimidation, History, Perception, Athletics. +5 on DEX Skills.
Fighting Style: GWF and Defense.

It's not optimized, but I like it. The only "buff" that I should give to the Champion is +1 on damage rolls on lvl 3 or 10. They're good, just need the right build.

Vogonjeltz

2016-12-06, 07:50 PM

That was a good example, thank you.
And yes, it would take 35ish attacks to bring them down without AoE.

Now your 46 rounds were for level 20 characters

I mean, an ancient red dragon has 546 hit points on average. (max hp is 812)

I suspect that's going to take more than 5 rounds to get through considering the legendary resistance on top of great saving throws, high fear DC that means autofailure unless someone has at least a +1 wisdom modifier and very high wing attack DC.

Or we could even make it a borderline easy fight and throw 228 kobolds at the party. Purely by virtue of action economy that could easily require 20+ rounds depending on the circumstances.

You know that most characters are going to hit AC 18 on a roll of 13 or 14, so that means they miss on a 12. They miss 60% of the time. So they hit 40% of the time. So why are you calculating damage like they hit 25% of the time?

Fixing the numbers, and accounting for parry as best I can:
R 3d6+3 (24*.05+13.5*.25=4.575) Using a shortsword. Highest Dex, so probably goes first compared to the knight going last. Always faces a parry ready.
R 1d4+2d6 ((19*.05+9.5*.35)*.1+(19*.05+9.5*.25)*.6=2.4225) Off-hand Dagger used only when shortsword misses.
W 1d10 ((11*.05+5.5*.35)*=2.475) Using firebolt, probably has next highest dexterity, and can't parry ranged attacks.
F 2d6+3 ((19.66~*.05+11.33~*.35)*.16+(19.66~*.05+11.33~*.2 5)*.84=3.998) Using a greatsword, and there's an 84% chance that parry wasn't used so far.
C 1d8 (4.5*.6=2.7) Sacred Flame, which can be used just fine in melee range and doesn't care about parry.
4.575+2.4225+2.475+3.998+2.7=16.1705
52/16.1705=3.215 rounds.

Yes I limited it to account for the certain hits.

Also, I didn't impose disdvantage on characters using ranged attacks when Knight gets in melee.

If rogue only applies damage for 2 rounds, the remaining fight takes about 2.2 more rounds for a total fight length of 4.2 rounds, on average, when the party is totally slacking. More likely the rogue can disengage on one or more rounds and force the knight to spread damage to the heavily armored PCs or take more damage chasing the rogue. Either way, the fight probably ends before round 5.

I didn't even bother assuming the Knight would have his reaction, I earmarked it as being used for Parry. If the rogue disengages he risks not being in range for the next round, effectively halving his dpr, which is almost as good as actually K.O.ing him.

I think the knight would find it an acceptable risk to suffer an opportunity attack from the Fighter to run the Rogue down, after all, it only takes 2 turns of attacks to drop him. The Rogue can't avoid that unless he uses dash to get out of range, but if he does that then he's going to be stuck in range on any return trip and get knocked out. Even if the Rogue doesn't die, the damage output from the Knight should be sufficient to drain a significant number of party resources in order to recover (hit points, hit dice, healing spells) and avoiding that would require the use of expendable resources that reduce party efficiency in later fights.

i.e. If you're out of healing and spells that might shorten the fight, and you're lower on hit points, later fights are going to be more dangerous and probably reduce the damage output faster from characters being knocked out.

Frankly I'm a little surprised the Knight counts as only a medium threat at that level, yes victory is virtually certain for the party, but it's entirely possible for a solo knight to kill one or more, especially if luck of the roll goes against the party early on. (i.e. Knight gets a crit in round 1, could drop a character outright).