Interesting ways they balanced races in Volo's

[MrFahrenheit]

So after taking a look at the races available, something struck me about the races in VGtM. They:

1. Get an ability bump and a feature that would be superbly useful for a given class
BUT
2. They also get a feature which would appear redundant with that exact class, and an unhelpful ability bump as well.

This is in contrast to the phb races, who achieve balance primarily by receiving good-but-not-overpowered features/ability boosts, and non-redundant features.

Not saying it's better or worse; just different. It's still balanced. I find it fascinating.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Examples????

[Naanomi]

Mountain Dwarf was built like that in the PHB... medium armor and weapon proficiency (good for casters), STR/CON boost (good for people who almost certainly already have the proficiency in both)

[Belac93]

Examples????

Goblins make perfect rogues, with bonuses to dexterity and constitution, and the ability to deal extra damage. However, they also get nimble escape, which is just a worse cunning action.

[Grubble]

I look at it as you can play a rogue with a different classes features, no muktivlass needed. I personally think goblins are fabulous.

[Naanomi]

I look at it as you can play a rogue with a different classes features, no muktivlass needed. I personally think goblins are fabulous.
It is well made, but it is (intentionally I think) built as redundant in part as a limit on power of Goblin-Rogues

[RulesJD]

Besides V.Human, Goblins now make the best Rangers. User bonus action to Hide for Advantage.

However, you are largely correct. Aasimar are given a poor man's Lay on Hands even though Paladins/Clerics (what their stat bumps largely match up with) already have plenty of healing.

Tabaxi/Lizardfolk get extra unarmed attacks, when Rogues/Monks are clearly their best designed class and don't really need it.

[MrFahrenheit]

Thanks. It is weird. The above post referencing the mountain dwarves would appear correct in that this was the only race balanced against itself (rather than others) in the phb.

The thought of a bugbear melee rogue X/extra attack granting class 5 wielding a whip and shield is pretty amazing given the long-limbed feature, but that strength boost does nothing for the character other than bump a likely-neglected skill from -1 to 0.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Examples????

Yuan-Ti purebloods have nice racial abilities, but bonuses to two abilities (Int and Charisma) that are pretty much never both primary for the same class. Or even a primary and a secondary for the same class. That seems to match the 'unhelpful ability bump' mentioned.

They still look like they could be fun once in a while, though.

[Gastronomie]

...I didn't realize that. Now that it's mentioned, I definitely agree. Good observation.

As for Yuan-Ti: Yeah, they pretty much have an "ASI tax". Since it's impossible to get over two 16s in the character sheet at initial creation, you will forever lag behind in terms of ability scores.

But I think that Magic Resistance is worth much, MUCH more than a Feat. They're still pretty damn powerful (not exactly game-breaking, but very powerful).

[MrFahrenheit]

...I didn't realize that. Now that it's mentioned, I definitely agree. Good observation.

As for Yuan-Ti: Yeah, they pretty much have an "ASI tax". Since it's impossible to get over two 16s in the character sheet at initial creation, you will forever lag behind in terms of ability scores.

But I think that Magic Resistance is worth much, MUCH more than a Feat. They're still pretty damn powerful (not exactly game-breaking, but very powerful).

Agreed. Most logical choice would seem a tomelock with a wizard dip (I'm a big fan of GOO X/diviner 2. Very thematic).

Even the bugbear isn't as OP as initially seems. PAM+sentinel at that level of reach can be a curse as well as a blessing in larger battles when intelligent enemies may use their goons to trigger it, then walk right by and eat some squishies. Going paladin, barbarian or fighter? Either str or dex is now a tax. Worse for the former two than the latter (EDIT: especially because of the "oh you didn't target me and we're adjacent" features pal and barb get). Going barbarian? The naked build is your obvious choice. Going rogue? Melee>ranged. Not bad, just different.

Going back to naked barbarians, the lizardfolk would make a really good one...except for that wis tax.

Etc etc...

I still firmly believe it's well balanced. Fascinating way theydid so; gives me faith for future publications (still saying no to UA in my campaign though).

[MaxWilson]

So after taking a look at the races available, something struck me about the races in VGtM. They:

1. Get an ability bump and a feature that would be superbly useful for a given class
BUT
2. They also get a feature which would appear redundant with that exact class, and an unhelpful ability bump as well.

This is in contrast to the phb races, who achieve balance primarily by receiving good-but-not-overpowered features/ability boosts, and non-redundant features.

Not saying it's better or worse; just different. It's still balanced. I find it fascinating.

Interesting observation. I tried to "break" it by thinking of combinations that are clearly awesome (e.g. goblin bardlocks, kobold moon druids), but then realized that those cases still sort of fit your pattern. E.g. a goblin archer is Small and doesn't waste any ASIs (both Dex and Con are useful to him) and can excel at Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert cheese with Nimble Escape, but in a way he's still being hurt by his small size because it limits his ability to engage at range. A goblin bardlock is awesome due to Nimble Escape + Stealth Expertise--he gets all the best parts of being a rogue without investing in Rogue at all--but doesn't make that much use of his bonus Dex, except for AC and Stealth checks. A kobold Moon Druid loooves Pack Tactics, but the Dex bonus is kind of going to waste. Etc.

So your observation still holds true: the pattern is different than the PHB's predominant pattern.

Good observation.

[MrFahrenheit]

Interesting observation. I tried to "break" it by thinking of combinations that are clearly awesome (e.g. goblin bardlocks, kobold moon druids), but then realized that those cases still sort of fit your pattern. E.g. a goblin archer is Small and doesn't waste any ASIs (both Dex and Con are useful to him) and can excel at Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert cheese with Nimble Escape, but in a way he's still being hurt by his small size because it limits his ability to engage at range. A goblin bardlock is awesome due to Nimble Escape + Stealth Expertise--he gets all the best parts of being a rogue without investing in Rogue at all--but doesn't make that much use of his bonus Dex, except for AC and Stealth checks. A kobold Moon Druid loooves Pack Tactics, but the Dex bonus is kind of going to waste. Etc.

So your observation still holds true: the pattern is different than the PHB's predominant pattern.

Good observation.

Appreciate it. I've definitely found they balance through redundancy/unusable-ness.

Looks like I was wrong about one thing though in my OP: re-reading bugbear's long-limbed feature, it only applies on YOUR turn. So PAM's AoO feature, as well as sentinel's, reverts to standard. So bugbears therefore make amazing thieves and fighters (especially str-based ones of the latter with med armor), but may actually want to avoid going too far in barbarian or paladin.

Hobgoblins are another very interesting case. ASIs alone would lead you to want a wizard, but everything else screams martial. Would make good EKs or ATs, though.

[mgshamster]

...I didn't realize that. Now that it's mentioned, I definitely agree. Good observation.

As for Yuan-Ti: Yeah, they pretty much have an "ASI tax". Since it's impossible to get over two 16s in the character sheet at initial creation, you will forever lag behind in terms of ability scores.

But I think that Magic Resistance is worth much, MUCH more than a Feat. They're still pretty damn powerful (not exactly game-breaking, but very powerful).

Isn't the gnome fairly similar? Small, magic resistance. Bonus to int suggests excellent wizard, but you're not going to aim for a con or Dex over 16 as well (unless you want to sacrifice on wisdom and Dex/Con).

[MrFahrenheit]

Yuan ti seem like alternate tieflings: their poison immunity is better than fire resistance, but tieflings have better innate spellcasting options.

EDIT: I mean, immunity > resistance. This is before you factor in how often you deal with any given damage type. Also, pure blood innate caster options are al geared toward control, whereas tieflings are a buckshot of everything.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Yuan ti seem like alternate tieflings: their poison immunity is better than fire resistance, but tieflings have better innate spellcasting options.

EDIT: I mean, immunity > resistance. This is before you factor in how often you deal with any given damage type. Also, pure blood innate caster options are al geared toward control, whereas tieflings are a buckshot of everything.

I actually think Fire Resistance is handier, as it makes you less likely to kill yourself with Fireball and fire damage is really common. However, Yuan-Ti also get Magic Resistance, which makes their resistances better overall.

[Gastronomie]

I actually think Fire Resistance is handier, as it makes you less likely to kill yourself with Fireball and fire damage is really common. However, Yuan-Ti also get Magic Resistance, which makes their resistances better overall.Stuff like Cloudkill and Stinking Cloud will be hilarious with Yuan-Ti though (pretty much Sculpt Spell/Careful Spell). And I think more monsters in the MM have Poison damage than Fire damage.

[Squeeq]

I was thinking this too! Lizardfolk might make good monks with their bites as an unarmed attack, but they can't use unarmored defense with their natural armor. I like it because it leaves alternate options more freely open - you can use the ability that's good for one class, or the ability that works at cross-class purposes, with the less useful ability just being a fun occasional option.

Also: Sentinel doesn't work with bugbear reach - RAW states that the bugbears only get extra reach on their turn.

[MrFahrenheit]

I was thinking this too! Lizardfolk might make good monks with their bites as an unarmed attack, but they can't use unarmored defense with their natural armor. I like it because it leaves alternate options more freely open - you can use the ability that's good for one class, or the ability that works at cross-class purposes, with the less useful ability just being a fun occasional option.

Also: Sentinel doesn't work with bugbear reach - RAW states that the bugbears only get extra reach on their turn.

Re: lizardfolk natural armor vs unarmored...not sure which is the "specific" in the rule of specific vs general. If it's the natural armor, naked lizardfolk barbarians can, at level 20, get the max possible static AC available in the game (assuming a +3 shield). Will probably need a Crawford tweet on this.

Re: long-limbed...yeah I realized that and corrected it a few posts down.

[Squeeq]

Re: lizardfolk natural armor vs unarmored...not sure which is the "specific" in the rule of specific vs general. If it's the natural armor, naked lizardfolk barbarians can, at level 20, get the max possible static AC available in the game (assuming a +3 shield). Will probably need a Crawford tweet on this.

Re: long-limbed...yeah I realized that and corrected it a few posts down.

He actually did - different ways of formulating AC don't stack; you get natural armour or unarmored defence.

[MrFahrenheit]

He actually did - different ways of formulating AC don't stack; you get natural armour or unarmored defence.

Ok. I interpreted that to be between class features, not racial + class. So would lizardfolk get 13+dex+shield if unarmored but wielding one, or would that cause it to revert to 10?

[RickAllison]

Ok. I interpreted that to be between class features, not racial + class.

It is any way of calculating AC. The more confusing part is how some things refer to natural armor AC bonuses while others are a way of calculating the AC. One should stack just fine, while the other should not.

[tieren]

What is the firbolg redundant feature

[Squeeq]

Ok. I interpreted that to be between class features, not racial + class. So would lizardfolk get 13+dex+shield if unarmored but wielding one, or would that cause it to revert to 10?


13+dex+shield, but if they're a barbarian they get either 13+dex+shield or 10+dex+con+shield. The additional 3 AC is honestly very large in 5e, so I can see why it wouldn't be allowed from a mechanical standpoint. From a LOGIC standpoint, I can't really figure out why that wouldn't work, ESPECIALLY with the barbarian unarmored defense. Alas.

[Naanomi]

What is the firbolg redundant feature
Not all races were balanced this way, just a few actually. Just an interesting approach compared to the maybe two or so races with such treatment in the PHB

[MaxWilson]

Appreciate it. I've definitely found they balance through redundancy/unusable-ness.

Looks like I was wrong about one thing though in my OP: re-reading bugbear's long-limbed feature, it only applies on YOUR turn. So PAM's AoO feature, as well as sentinel's, reverts to standard. So bugbears therefore make amazing thieves and fighters (especially str-based ones of the latter with med armor), but may actually want to avoid going too far in barbarian or paladin.

Hobgoblins are another very interesting case. ASIs alone would lead you to want a wizard, but everything else screams martial. Would make good EKs or ATs, though.

How's that? Hobgoblin Saving Face when used as a saving throw bonus is approximately the same as Yuan-Ti's Magic Resistance, which everyone seems to be eyeing as a wizard type.

What's wrong with the idea of hobgoblin PC wizards?

==========================================


Stuff like Cloudkill and Stinking Cloud will be hilarious with Yuan-Ti though (pretty much Sculpt Spell/Careful Spell). And I think more monsters in the MM have Poison damage than Fire damage.

A Yuan-ti Necrolock (Warlock 2/Necromancer X) who casts Stinking Cloud and lurks inside with his skeletons and zombies, blasting everything outside the cloud with skeleton arrows and Eldritch Blast at advantage (due to heavy obscurement) and letting his supercharged zombies shred anything that ventures into the cloud... that could be a fun villain. Fun for the DM at least. :-)

[MrFahrenheit]

You're right about saving face. I definitely read that as a "weapon" attack, probably because it's right below he martial training section...and they're hobgoblins. But that's not the case.

[MaxWilson]

What is the firbolg redundant feature

Strength bonus.

[MrFahrenheit]

Strength bonus.

Only exception could be for nature clerics who really want that full plate.

[Douche]

I look at it as you can play a rogue with a different classes features, no muktivlass needed. I personally think goblins are fabulous.

I agree with this sentiment. It doesn't have to be 100% optimized, and a little bit of redundancy isn't the end of the world. I like abilities that characterize a race, rather than just being the optimal choice. So you can be a rogue with a redundant ability, or you can be another class with rogue-like tendencies. Regardless, it's nice to have the spirit of a goblin.

[Veniur]

I was thinking about this thread yesterday and I realized that the new races have racial features that are similar to class features already in the game and could be compared against one another based on levels you would receive its counterpart as a class feature.
Example:
Yuan-ti Magic Resistance is similar to a lvl 14 abjuration wizard feature.
Goblin Nimble Escape is similar to lvl 2 monk ki abilities or lvl 2 rogue cunning action.
Bugbear Surprise Attack is similar to a watered down rogue lvl 3 sneak attack or lvl 3 assassinate.