Barbarian progression [multiclass incoming]

[Eladain]

Hello everyone, I'm in a bit of a quandary over which direction to take my barbarian. I'm currently running a dex-based S&B stout halfling barbarian (I can hear the cringes already :P) and he's currently lvl 4 (just hit 5, but haven't leveled up yet). The dex-based decision was two-fold. I wanted something fun, but effective, and while Str barbarians are clearly more optimized, the dex-based ones can be annoyingly durable. Secondly this is campaign is in the Al-Qadim setting where heavier armor is harder to come by and it is a desert so 'unarmored' seemed much more thematic.

Rolled Stats (Insert second cringe): 13 Str, 18(20) Dex, 16(17) Con, 9 Int, 15(16) Wis, 11 Cha
AC 21 [10 + 5 Dex + 3 Con + 3 (+1 shield)]
Level 4 feat - Res(Wis)

Party composition - Life Cleric[range], Lore Bard[range], Rogue(Thief)[melee], and myself[melee].

My first question is about his Primal Path. Currently he went bear totem, but with the new UA release I have the option of changing that. Obviously I'm pretty hard to hit myself, but I'm not overly 'sticky'. How do people feel about the new Path of the Ancestral Guardian? Trading some resistances while raging for some stickiness @3 seems ok to me. Plus most elemental dmg would come from spells and danger sense and a +5 dex save give me a decent defense vs those. Then the level 6 ability seems really useful.

Originally I had only planned to go 4-5 levels into barb and then hop over to Rogue for all that defensive goodness. However, if I switched to Ancestral Guardian I would definitely want 6 barb, and if I'm going 6 it seems worthwhile to go 7 for feral instinct. Thoughts?

Then I get to the multiclass dilemma. Rogue had been my thought from the beginning. Really good defensive goodies in Uncanny Dodge and Evasion. Expertise and Cunning Action are never bad. Plus, SA would help makeup a bit of the dmg I lose out on from not being a str-based barbarian. Assassin doesn't fit the character at all (Raise by dwarves, very brash and upfront). We already have a thief so I don't want to do to much stepping on the toes. That left me with Arcane Trickster. Low Int, does not have any synergy with rage, etc... It does fit the character though as he's become fascinated by the Bard's 'tricks' and the bard has even begun trying to teach him a few. Albeit to disastrous results. Throw in the fact that it nets me booming blade to help yet again with dmg and stickiness and it doesn't seem too bad. Obviously I would be avoiding any spell that would target and require my spell dc. Would EK be a better choice? Something else entirely?

Sorry that was a bit longer than intended. If you read it all I really appreciate it. If not here's the summary...

1) Suggested barbarian path and max level?
2) Preferred multiclass option?

Thank you guys for reading and any input would be greatly appreciated.

[djreynolds]

Why not, throw an ASI in charisma and grab bard?

Cutting words from a little scrapper, pop rage when needed. A very small Skald, very small kilt.

Use cutting words when raging? Talk smack. And then grab some swashbuckler on top. 6 barbarian, then ASI in charisma... grab 3 of lore bard and 3 swashbuckler

[SnailWizard]

Alright let me answer your questions in order.

1. With your high AC, path of the ancestral guardian would be a pretty smart choice, path of the totem warrior (bear) is a bit more focused on defending yourself (especially with its 3rd level trait), while path of the ancestral guardian is a bit more focused on defending others (with its 3rd, 6th, and 14th level traits). Since you have a high AC and probably have high health (being a barbarian) there really is no point in the Bear's 3rd level trait, and its 14th level trait is just a slightly better version of ancestral protectors which you can learn at 3rd level. So in my opinion you should take path of the ancestral guardian. As for how long you should keep leveling your barbarian it really comes to personal preference. I haven't gotten far enough with a barbarian to tell you how full-filling it is at higher levels, so just keep going and if you get bored with it or something of the sort you can stop leveling him up in that class.

2. For multi-classing, you are definitely in a tricky situation. You have a high Dex so investing levels into a rogue would be a valid choice. Unfortunately, none of the rogue subclasses really work to well for you, as you don't want to be an assassin for RP reasons (which is totally fine), but you already have a thief so it would be a waste of time to invest in that, and your intelligence of 9 is a bit low for the arcane trickster. Now, if you think that the benefits of the rogue's main ability tree (sneak attack, uncanny dodge, etc.) makes up for your lack of synergy among its subclasses then go for it. I think you should wait until your next ability score improvement (which I believe would be 8th level) and then decide what you want to specialize in (maybe intelligence if you want to go through with being an arcane trickster). If it was up to me I would pump up my stregnth to 15 and put some levels into the fighter, mainly for fighting style, but that's just me.

Hope I could have helped answer your questions, and sorry for the messy response.

[Gignere]

Given your party composition I would suggest mastermind. In combat, you really don't need cunning tactics to disengage, hide, dash, etc. given your HPs and AC. So you want a subclass that allows you to do other things with your bonus action. Mastermind is kind of really perfect because you can use help as bonus action and basically give permanent advantage the thief in the party. You still get uncanny dodge and evasion which was the point of the rogue multi but now you can also increase your party's DPR significantly. May not fit RP wise unless you do some reskinnning.

[Eladain]

Alright let me answer your questions in order.

1. With your high AC, path of the ancestral guardian would be a pretty smart choice, path of the totem warrior (bear) is a bit more focused on defending yourself (especially with its 3rd level trait), while path of the ancestral guardian is a bit more focused on defending others (with its 3rd, 6th, and 14th level traits). Since you have a high AC and probably have high health (being a barbarian) there really is no point in the Bear's 3rd level trait, and its 14th level trait is just a slightly better version of ancestral protectors which you can learn at 3rd level. So in my opinion you should take path of the ancestral guardian. As for how long you should keep leveling your barbarian it really comes to personal preference. I haven't gotten far enough with a barbarian to tell you how full-filling it is at higher levels, so just keep going and if you get bored with it or something of the sort you can stop leveling him up in that class.

2. For multi-classing, you are definitely in a tricky situation. You have a high Dex so investing levels into a rogue would be a valid choice. Unfortunately, none of the rogue subclasses really work to well for you, as you don't want to be an assassin for RP reasons (which is totally fine), but you already have a thief so it would be a waste of time to invest in that, and your intelligence of 9 is a bit low for the arcane trickster. Now, if you think that the benefits of the rogue's main ability tree (sneak attack, uncanny dodge, etc.) makes up for your lack of synergy among its subclasses then go for it. I think you should wait until your next ability score improvement (which I believe would be 8th level) and then decide what you want to specialize in (maybe intelligence if you want to go through with being an arcane trickster). If it was up to me I would pump up my stregnth to 15 and put some levels into the fighter, mainly for fighting style, but that's just me.

Hope I could have helped answer your questions, and sorry for the messy response.

1. Ya, I definitely agree that ancestral guardian seems to be the wiser choice. I'm not getting hit all that often and when it does occur, it's the proverbial drop in a bucket. This next level, assuming barb, will bring my HP to right around 60 @lvl 5.That decision alone at least give me to level 6 to debate question #2 and multi-classing.Possibly 8 for the ASI as you mentioned.

2. The 9 int definitely isn't ideal for AT, but I thin we can all agree that the rogue's main tree is really good. I guess my main dilemma there was whether or not there was enough non-targetting stuff in the AT kit that I could utilize. Booming Blade is obviously great. mage hand? minor illusion? disguise self? find familiar? Food for thought I suppose.

I have considered some fighter for the fighting style(dueling?) you mentioned. EK could function similar to AT with the Booming Blade access. Again low int. Or I could go down the BM tree and just use an extra feat on magic initiate, which may make the most sense.

The new ranger has been a more recent consideration. It nets me the fighting style, new natural explorer is sweet, I have the dex and wis, and BM mounted combat could be quite fun. Although it would probably require mounted combatant to protect a bit squishier pet with me not having full ranger levels.

[Eladain]

Given your party composition I would suggest mastermind. In combat, you really don't need cunning tactics to disengage, hide, dash, etc. given your HPs and AC. So you want a subclass that allows you to do other things with your bonus action. Mastermind is kind of really perfect because you can use help as bonus action and basically give permanent advantage the thief in the party. You still get uncanny dodge and evasion which was the point of the rogue multi but now you can also increase your party's DPR significantly. May not fit RP wise unless you do some reskinnning.

I had actually forgotten about Mastermind. I've not given it more than a cursory glance since it came out and it completely slipped my mind. I'll have to go give it a good read and see what it was all about. Thanks for the reminder.

[bid]

I had actually forgotten about Mastermind. I've not given it more than a cursory glance since it came out and it completely slipped my mind. I'll have to go give it a good read and see what it was all about. Thanks for the reminder.
That or swashbuckler. The level 9 taunting is nice.

[Tauguy628]

IMO, if people aren't hitting you, you should probably pick up sentinel. Also, AT is still very good with bad int. A lot of your spells are going to be buffs (like shield, blur), so you don't really need a lot of int because these buff spell don't need a save or attack roll. For the barb path, I would go zealot because its the most op and sentinel will make you sticky. One other thing that might be good is a long death monk dip (3,4, or 6 levels) for extra tankiness and possibly some cc.
Personally, I might go to do a zealot barb 6/long death monk 8/AT rouge 6, taking sentinel for one of the ABSIs. This gives you great cc (stunning strike and at will fear), amazing survivability, is pretty good at getting monsters to attack you. (Also you're really fast)

[Gignere]

IMO, if people aren't hitting you, you should probably pick up sentinel. Also, AT is still very good with bad int. A lot of your spells are going to be buffs (like shield, blur), so you don't really need a lot of int because these buff spell don't need a save or attack roll. For the barb path, I would go zealot because its the most op and sentinel will make you sticky. One other thing that might be good is a long death monk dip (3,4, or 6 levels) for extra tankiness and possibly some cc.
Personally, I might go to do a zealot barb 6/long death monk 8/AT rouge 6, taking sentinel for one of the ABSIs. This gives you great cc (stunning strike and at will fear), amazing survivability, is pretty good at getting monsters to attack you. (Also you're really fast)

AT sucks with barbarian because you can't cast nor concentrate while raging. So your spells are only good other things besides combat. You can't even use SCAG cantrips. So AT is like the worst possible MC with Barbarian. Do not take it as barbarian.

[Tauguy628]

AT sucks with barbarian because you can't cast nor concentrate while raging. So your spells are only good other things besides combat. You can't even use SCAG cantrips. So AT is like the worst possible MC with Barbarian. Do not take it as barbarian.
You are most likely not rageing every single combat: you don't have enough rages. AT allows you to be more helpful in those combats where you don't rage. Also, you can still use those rogue features like sneak attack and uncanny dodge while raging. Furthermore, AT provides amazing utility as combat is not the only thing a party needs to have skills in. In the build I proposed above, I feel that AT would give more relevant and useful features than swashbuckler or mastermind.

[Eladain]

AT sucks with barbarian because you can't cast nor concentrate while raging. So your spells are only good other things besides combat. You can't even use SCAG cantrips. So AT is like the worst possible MC with Barbarian. Do not take it as barbarian.

A bit of an extreme take. You can use the SCAG cantrips, just not while raging. I'm dex-based though and since I don't benefit from the strength portion of rage I use mine much more defensively and don't insta-rage when asked to roll initiative. There are quite a few times, either due to party positioning or battlefield layout, where I know I won't take a hit for a round or two. Or even if I will take a hit, it may be more worthwhile to tag a creature with something like BB to keep it from continuing after my squishy backline.

Also, a lot of AT spell list does not require you to target no concentrate. At least in my group "other things besides combat" make up a good 60-70% of our games, so I'm totally fine with having some extra utility in those situations where your average barbarian would flex his pecks and growl at something.

I don't mean for any of that to sound rude, I do appreciate constructive input/feedback. Just trying to figure out ways to make up for some of the dmg loss from a str-->dex barb while maintaining, or ideally improving, my defensive capabilities. The rogue core tree seems to do that fairly well, but the archetype is very much the dilemma at hand. Or as stated in the OP, if you think something else accomplishes those goals I am all ears!

[Eladain]

IMO, if people aren't hitting you, you should probably pick up sentinel. Also, AT is still very good with bad int. A lot of your spells are going to be buffs (like shield, blur), so you don't really need a lot of int because these buff spell don't need a save or attack roll. For the barb path, I would go zealot because its the most op and sentinel will make you sticky. One other thing that might be good is a long death monk dip (3,4, or 6 levels) for extra tankiness and possibly some cc.
Personally, I might go to do a zealot barb 6/long death monk 8/AT rouge 6, taking sentinel for one of the ABSIs. This gives you great cc (stunning strike and at will fear), amazing survivability, is pretty good at getting monsters to attack you. (Also you're really fast)

I appreciate the feedback. Sentinel will very much be on the to-get list. I haven't quite hammered out my feat/ASI progression just yet. Obviously I already took Res(Wis), and I'll be wanting Sentinel, Shield Master, and +1/+1 to stats (Con and ?).

[Tauguy628]

I appreciate the feedback. Sentinel will very much be on the to-get list. I haven't quite hammered out my feat/ASI progression just yet. Obviously I already took Res(Wis), and I'll be wanting Sentinel, Shield Master, and +1/+1 to stats (Con and ?).

IMO, A +1 to a stat other than con does not seem super helpful in your situation. I might take the durable half feat instead, for while it is not that strong, it will probably be more useful than +1 int, cha, or str.

[Eladain]

It's definitely the lowest priority and as it stands would be like 11 levels down the road. Assuming this campaign even got that far (I think that would be lvl 16), I can totally cross the bridge when I get there.

[PeteNutButter]

Is definately go Barb 5 then ranger 4, after that probably fighter 4.

Ranger hunter is fantastic addition to any melee with its level 3 ability resulting in a straight damage upgrade. Your wisdom is high enough that spells like ensnaring strike can actually lock some foes down nicely, whenever you aren't raging of course. The new favored enemy is just more damage. Hunters mark is a good damage boost whenever you don't need the rage damage resistance. Ranger also gives another skill!

Fighter for all its goodies and Battle master moves that work when raging or concentrating. EK is tempting but typically you'll be raging if you need defense.

Shield master is really good, but I'd definitely not take it until you have at least one level of rogue for expertise with that low str. You can sneak that level in whenever. Sentinel is probably your best feat, but ASIs may take priority. Max dex then sentinel then con IMO.

[Eladain]

Is definately go Barb 5 then ranger 4, after that probably fighter 4.

Ranger hunter is fantastic addition to any melee with its level 3 ability resulting in a straight damage upgrade. Your wisdom is high enough that spells like ensnaring strike can actually lock some foes down nicely, whenever you aren't raging of course. The new favored enemy is just more damage. Hunters mark is a good damage boost whenever you don't need the rage damage resistance. Ranger also gives another skill!

Fighter for all its goodies and Battle master moves that work when raging or concentrating. EK is tempting but typically you'll be raging if you need defense.

Shield master is really good, but I'd definitely not take it until you have at least one level of rogue for expertise with that low str. You can sneak that level in whenever. Sentinel is probably your best feat, but ASIs may take priority. Max dex then sentinel then con IMO.

That's a LOT of multi-classing, but the synergy is definitely there!

Dex is already maxed, due to rolled stats.

I did have a question regarding shield masters usefulness given the low str. This could be a misunderstanding on my part, but the bonus action shove is an opposed athletics check, correct? If so, and I am raging would I not get advantage on the shove/prone attempt since it is a Str based check? I'm not sure if the math then puts it above sentinel for feat priority.

[bid]

I did have a question regarding shield masters usefulness given the low str. This could be a misunderstanding on my part, but the bonus action shove is an opposed athletics check, correct? If so, and I am raging would I not get advantage on the shove/prone attempt since it is a Str based check? I'm not sure if the math then puts it above sentinel for feat priority.
Indeed.

OTOH, you still prefer getting some OA from sentinel.

[djreynolds]

Expertise in athletics is huge, and a rogue with a 8 strength and expertise is +11, and a fighter with 20 strength is +11.

If you have to think of things you can use while raging, cutting words is one as it is not a spell

BB and GFB, you cannot use them, they are spells

Bard or rogue will get you expertise. Expertise in athletics is cool.

Now I see you have a rogue in your party, you melee buddy... wolf grants him advantage on attacks.

But I think the desert rage is just more thematic.

Have you looked at the Kits of Old, it has a College of Swords Bard and he uses his inspiration to augment his own attacks and he gets the TWF style

I think this, and the elemental rage, and swashbuckler would be perfect

[MeeposFire]

I think swashbuckler or mastermind is best for you depending if you rather be better at ensuring sneak attack or helping allies.

I think the rogue is important because otherwise your damage is relatively low. You should want enemies to attack you since your high defenses make that a good option for you but if I was your DM I would not since what is the point? Your defenses are high and your offense is rather low for a melee guy. Sneak attack will potentially help with that as will things like sentinel (since extra attacks fro ignoring you help convince them to not ignore you). Its other abilities make you even better at survival and gives you extra mobility which is key to keeping enemies close.

I am not sure I like ranger if you are only going a couple levels. The number of spell slots at that point are very low giving you little endurance and many of its features either require a bit of investment in ranger or are much better with a higher base damage (which you partly get from spells but you won't have enough levels to likely benefit enough from them). Beast master would give you an option that does not give you a redundant extra attack feature but once again I am not sure you are planning to take enough levels to really make that work. You might get more from fighter. Both get you fighting styles but fighter can give you some nice options, the nicest probably being battle master if you can only take a couple levels since you get most of the benefit of battle master from the first levels and it gives you a nice boost in combat effects and damage (which you probably need).

[Eladain]

Thanks for all of the suggestions. It's looking like I'm going to end up tri-classed eventually to cover all my bases. Something like Barbarian (Ancestral Guardian) 6-8, Rogue(Swashbuckler) 7-10, and Fighter(BM) 2-6. The level breakdowns are the new dilemma.

Currently barbarian 4 with a 5th level I haven't chosen yet. Barbarian 5 gets me extra attack (don't want that to be redundant with Fighter 5 if I end up there), and 6 gets me Ancestral shield which I really like. Fighter 4 for fighting style, AS, BM maneuvers, and Feat/ASI @4. Rogue 10 for 4 expertise skills, sneak attack (5d6), cunning action, uncanny dodge, evasion, swashbuckler taunt @9 and 3 feats/ASI.

So something along the lines of...

Progression - Barb 6 --> Rogue 1-4 -- > Fighter 1-4 --> Rogue 5-10
Feats/ASI's - Res(Wis) @4, Sentinel @10, Shield Master @14, +1 Con/+1 Cha @18, +2 Con @20

That may still require a bit of work.