Is Eldrich Knight useless if your wizard takes one of it's schools?

[Bowserboy129]

K so basically I was considering going EK since I thought some of the spells that didn't use INT were kind of cool, and I didn't wanna go with Battlemaster or Champion since I kind of feel both are a little boring in-character wise and wanted to go with something to make my guy a little more fun. Something about a guy with 8 Int casting spells just kind of seemed fun if you ask me, and like I said most of the ones I'd get anyway (Like shield) don't require Int to use so it wouldn't be much of a nurf.

However before I realized I wanted to go EK (I'm mainly playing Fighter since I rolled the tank role and Fighter's kind of the best tank anyway in my mind due to how much access it has to restoring and gaining HP so I didn't go in with much of a plan here.) our wizard ended up taking the school of Abjuration and is kind of already taking care of half of the stuff I would take. As such I was wondering if I should even consider going EK, or if I should go with one of the more boring sub-classes instead.

[djreynolds]

I love EK, chainmail with shield is 18AC, reaction shield spell AC 23. Just grab war caster and tank.

With an 8 intelligence you are not countering any spells, and his arcane ward can be used on you when he hits 6th level.

Just grab defensive spells that allow you to hang in combat, mirror image, blur, protection from evil, etc.. Stuff like levitate and fly are good to have.

You will end using many slots just on placing buffs like fireshield and blur and mirror image and the rest are for movement stuff and spamming the shield spell.

[Bowserboy129]

Just grab defensive spells that allow you to hang in combat, mirror image, blur, protection from evil, etc.. Stuff like levitate and fly are good to have.

The main issue here though is that nether of those are Evocation or Abjuration, which are the only schools EK can take spells from. Well aside from protection from Evil, which the wizard and cleric in the party both have.

Edit: Never mind I just reread the PHB and I kind of messed up lol my bad

[Gastronomie]

First of all, Eldritch Knights and Wizards fill completely different roles. There is no need to ever fear getting outclassed or becoming useless.

The Wizard is, essentially, a Controller. He does not damage well (most of the time, even if he uses spell slots). He is terrible at tanking, and is in fact the guy who puts his friends in front of him as meat shields. However, he can create fog, make enemies sleep, mind-control, decieve, create walls, empower you, and bend reality in all sorts of other ways. Since he sucks at damage, he cannot win on his own, but he supports the frontline warriors and manipulates the battlefield in the ways that are most beneficial for the party.

The Eldritch Knight is NOT a Controller. He is a Tank. He takes on damage better than any other Fighter archetype, having spells like Shield, Absorb Elements (EE), Mirror Image, and so on. EvilAnagram's guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471427-An-Illustrated-Manual-for-Inflicting-Violence-A-Guide-to-Fightering) has a lot of insight concerning spell selection, as do some other guides. Look them up here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377491).

The Eldritch Knight does not control much, because he is not very good at it. He mainly uses his spells to boost his effectiveness as a warrior. From levels 7 to 10, the Eldritch Knight is also the best Fighter archetype in terms of DPR, since GFB + one attack and BB + one attack are strictly better than making two normal attacks.

What does this mean?

Well, the Wizard is amazing at controlling, and sucks at everything else (tanking and damaging). You as an Eldritch Knight is mediocre at best at controlling, but you're an amazing at tanking and damaging. Having less spell slots and having a restricted spell list does not make you a useless character in any way.

No need to be afraid. You will stay effective for all levels. Be aware that the core class of Fighter itself is really powerful on its own.

Well, if you want to play a Gish that is better at spellcasting, consider Fighter 1 / Warlock X or Paladin 2 / Sorcerer X (or Paladin 6 / Sorcerer X if it's high-level play). These are examples of "frontline warriors that can also control", so if you feel that using spells to just "enhance your combat skills" is lame, you might want to consider using these options instead.

[djreynolds]

The main issue here though is that nether of those are Evocation or Abjuration, which are the only schools EK can take spells from. Well aside from protection from Evil, which the wizard and cleric in the party both have.

Edit: Never mind I just reread the PHB and I kind of messed up lol my bad

You can also take other spells, not just evocation and abjuration. You can replace spells at 8th, 14th and 20th, So you get 2nd level spell access at 7th level EK and at 8th you can grab another school, etc.

IMO, if possible, I would definitely at some point look to add some multiclassing to your EK. Leave the intelligence at 8 and grab some sorcerer or cleric or bard if you have a high enough charisma or wisdom to add some variety or place a 13 in intelligence and grab some wizard.

Waiting till you are 8th level to change out 2nd level spells... sucks. Cleric goes well with EK IMO. Just imagine for 5 levels of cleric, you can run around with spirit guardians with your EK beating the pulp out of monsters. Wizard, and since you have one in the party, means you could have access to a lot of 1st and 2nd level wizard spells if you both exchange spell books, all for 3 level dip in wizard.

[Specter]

Fear not.

Abjurer's schtick is having a load of extra HP and shutting down other casters later on. Your schtick is tanking and dealing damage. You'll also have a much higher AC than he could dream of, so he doesn't want to get in the fray. More info will dependant on your build (fighting style, equipment, etc.).

[djreynolds]

You know what is cool, a small dip of evocation wizard, grab sculpt spell and when you are surrounded by foes... drop a fireball centered on yourself.

[Bowserboy129]

You know what is cool, a small dip of evocation wizard, grab sculpt spell and when you are surrounded by foes... drop a fireball centered on yourself.

Eh I kind of don't like mutliclassing in general cause I feel like it makes me weaker in the role I wanna take anyway, not to mention I'm at 8 Int anyway and can't really do so :P

[djreynolds]

Eh I kind of don't like mutliclassing in general cause I feel like it makes me weaker in the role I wanna take anyway, not to mention I'm at 8 Int anyway and can't really do so :P

What are your stats? Would you consider any rogue? Even arcane trickster?

I played a EK/AT who ruled in melee in full plate, war caster, and shield master. No stealth, and some different spells.

But you will be fine with cantrips, BB & GFB, and the shield spell and protection from evil, and please take resilient wisdom.

I'm excited to see your build, the shield spell is awesome... your DM may say you have to have war caster.

[Tanarii]

Eh I kind of don't like mutliclassing in general cause I feel like it makes me weaker in the role I wanna take anyway, not to mention I'm at 8 Int anyway and can't really do so :P
Being at Int 8 means you're throwing away your most powerful ability, War Magic. As well as the extra damage and AoE capability a few times a day via spell slots.

Unless your DM allows SCAG? Then it's more viable, although you're still dumping a lot in terms of tossing AoEs.

Edit: that said, I've build Cha 12 Bards & 'locks before, so I don't really have room to step on someone else doing a specific thing they want to do with their build. So I'll chime in with the others in saying go for personal defense spells, and don't worry about the party Wizard. You'll be busy stomping things with your weapon and occasionally self-defending with spell slots, while he does his thing with lots of spell slots.

[Gastronomie]

I don't know, but how often will an Eldritch Knight use an AoE? Does anyone have the experience required to tell?

[Tanarii]

I don't know, but how often will an Eldritch Knight use an AoE? Does anyone have the experience required to tell?I often see this sentiment and it kind of shocks me. You're asking 'how often will an EK want to do more damage than attacking with his weapon'?

Edit: YMMV based on build of course. If you make a GWM / sharpshooter build and dump Int, you're probably not going to see an increase in damage. But in my featless single class campaign, not only are EKs the most common Fighter subclass, they're also almost always built as Str/Int. (I see more BMs with GWM/Sharpshooter in one-shots that I allow feats)

[Specter]

Eh I kind of don't like mutliclassing in general cause I feel like it makes me weaker in the role I wanna take anyway, not to mention I'm at 8 Int anyway and can't really do so :P

You can go EK 14 safely for 3rd-level spells. After that it's kinda hit-or-miss.

[Gastronomie]

I often see this sentiment and it kind of shocks me. You're asking 'how often will an EK want to do more damage than attacking with his weapon'?

Edit: YMMV based on build of course. If you make a GWM / sharpshooter build and dump Int, you're probably not going to see an increase in damage. But in my featless single class campaign, not only are EKs the most common Fighter subclass, they're also almost always built as Str/Int. (I see more BMs with GWM/Sharpshooter in one-shots that I allow feats)Well, with a limited number of spell slots, I thought that (at least in theory) I will prioritize self-buffing over damaging. It might change for those who actually used it.

[Tanarii]

Well, with a limited number of spell slots, I thought that (at least in theory) I will prioritize self-buffing over damaging. It might change for those who actually used it.
That means you have a defensive / tank mindset. Nothing wrong with that.

I just let myself get irked because the Internet forums hive-mind has apparently decided that EKs shouldn't actually use their built in advantage in a certain area, but I rarely see players actually playing EKs that way. Outside of AL players that have carefully researched online, and thus bought into the hive-mind.

[Addaran]

I wouldn't fear stepping on each others' toes or being outclassed.

For stuff that need int (counter spell/ dispell magic) it's non-issue, you wouldn't take them anyway. (Don't have high enough slots for the auto-win)
For utility stuff like alarm, you don't have enough spell known and slots to waste on them. And the wizard can ritually cast most.

For defensive buffs, that's where you'll get the same spells, but it's a good thing! Some spells are caster only, so he couldn't give it to you. For the others, you'll be using your concentration instead of his. That means you can always be buffed, while the wizard buff someone in need or use a concentration control spell. And if the wizard wants to buff you, you could double on defense with two different concentration spells (haste and blur!). Your concentration saves is also more likely to be good, unless he goes into feats/multiclass, so less chance it will drop.

Seems like a win in all cases. =) You can even play in-game as his apprentice. Since you start without spell and your friend wizard is an expert abjurer, you can say he's the one teaching you new spells or how to cast at least.

[Temperjoke]

I don't think it will be an issue. For one thing, I personally don't think a wizard's school has as big an impact on a regular basis as people seem to think it does. Sure, you gain a few other abilities, but they tend to be circumstantial (which is good because it helps to balance wizards against other classes).

Now, as for what spells an Eldritch Knight can use, your cantrips can be any school of magic (as long as it's a cantrip from the wizard list), and of your initial 3 spells, only two of them have to be from evocation/abjuration, the 3rd can be from any school. As an Eldritch Knight though, your spellcasting isn't your primary method of protection/attack, it's supplementary. It gives you an option for situations when normal attacks won't work. So I wouldn't worry about the wizard overshadowing you. You're probably going to be capable of greater synergy with the wizard than anyone else will.

[Specter]

I don't know, but how often will an Eldritch Knight use an AoE? Does anyone have the experience required to tell?

In a white-room scenario, not so much, but it will depend mainly on your weapon style and kind of fight. If you've got a shield, for instance, you don't want to spend an action doffing it to get a bow and fire at the flying dragon, or the enemy that's too far to be reached. At those times, stuff like Scorching Ray and even Magic Missile make a difference. I once used Scorching Ray to attack a hag with 2 rays and at the same time break the barbarian's mind control with the other. And then of course there's Eldritch Strike, which can make your Fireball or eben Frostbite a lot more crucial. So long story short, they use it when the situation arises, and it will arise, which is why I think it's dump to have a low INT.


I just let myself get irked because the Internet forums hive-mind has apparently decided that EKs shouldn't actually use their built in advantage in a certain area, but I rarely see players actually playing EKs that way. Outside of AL players that have carefully researched online, and thus bought into the hive-mind.

Yeah, too many do's and don'ts from people with no play experience. It's nice to have some variety.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I don't know, but how often will an Eldritch Knight use an AoE? Does anyone have the experience required to tell?

I know Tanarii's (edit: and Specter :smallannoyed:) already covered this - and it's not really relevant to the OP - but I've seen a few Eldritch Knights with Burning Hands in play. It gives them a more control-y option since they can go into melee as a tank, draw in all the monsters, then blow them away. It's also something that barbarians, champions, battlemasters and paladins can't easily do, and it's always good to have a unique trick.

[jaappleton]

I wouldn't worry, though you need to have a clear mindset of what the EK is.

It's a fighter with some magical abilities that enhance it's Fighter-ness. Fighter-ocity? Whatever.

It's not a spellcaster. Do not expect to go toe-to-toe with anyone as far as spellcasting repertoire goes.

But you can become damn near the best tank possible. Even better if you can multiclass a little. Go for two weapon fighting (preferably with Finesse weapons, more on why later), the Warcaster feat, and two levels of Wizard for Bladesinger. Add in the TWF feat if you have room for it. Now you're in light armor (because of being Dex focused, +1 AC from TWF feat, Warcaster still enables you to cast spells easily, you've got the Shield spell, and twice per short rest you can add your Int modifier to your AC for the fight. and you have +Int mod to Concentration saves.

You're a friggin' wall. You're a Fighter so you'll have good Con saves, and going with Finesse weapons means you pumped Dex, so your Dex is good.

Assuming 16 Dex and 16 Int, you're in 13 (Studded Leather) +3 Dex + 1 (TWF feat), that's 17 AC at level 1.

Going Wizard next for Bladesinger. Plus the Shield spell boosts it to 22 until the start of your next turn. You can activate Bladesong for a minutes worth of +3 to your AC, bumping you to a constant 20 AC for a fight twice per short rest.

That's all starting at level 3.

Now, there's also one other thing: Going into Wizard gets you all the first level Wizard spells. Like Mage Armor. Now, why go Mage Armor over Light Armor? It'll take up a spell slot, lasts 8 hours. BUT! It means you're unarmored. Why do that? Because Bracers of Defense can be much easier to get than magical armor, since it's an Uncommon item. So that's AC of 13 (Mage Armor) + 3 (Dex) + 1 (TWF) +2 (Bracers) = 19, plus the previously mentioned Shield spell and Bladesong.

I highly recommend Eladrin for the race, since if you go further into Fighter (as you should), you'll have Second Wind, Action Surge and Fey Step (Misty Step) recharding on short rests.

[Tanarii]

I know Tanarii's (edit: and Specter :smallannoyed:) already covered this - and it's not really relevant to the OP - but I've seen a few Eldritch Knights with Burning Hands in play. It gives them a more control-y option since they can go into melee as a tank, draw in all the monsters, then blow them away. It's also something that barbarians, champions, battlemasters and paladins can't easily do, and it's always good to have a unique trick.I more often see Thunderwave for the pushing utility. Especially common to see Burning Hands traded for it as damage increases from physical attacks (and later War magic rotation).

[Citan]

That means you have a defensive / tank mindset. Nothing wrong with that.

I just let myself get irked because the Internet forums hive-mind has apparently decided that EKs shouldn't actually use their built in advantage in a certain area, but I rarely see players actually playing EKs that way. Outside of AL players that have carefully researched online, and thus bought into the hive-mind.
Agreed on this. Although the "self-Fireball" is less frequent because of the Evoker Wizard dip. But Fighter lifting his finger in front of a hord of mooks before unleashing torrents of fire through his hands? Yes sir. :)

To OP: as others said, don't worry about the fact your pal took Abjurer.
Even more so in your case since your INT prevents you to use any offensive spell, and abjuration spells are usually self-centered. Also, any good Wizard will diversify his pool anyways, so it's not like he was gonna cast abjuration spells 100% of the time. ;)
You are different classes, so you won't tiptoe anyways. Just focus on self-buffs and you'll be fine. ;)