Things that ignore caster-level conventions

[Jowgen]

Caster Levels in D&D generally follow some pretty simple conventions. Specifically, caster level (before boosters) is equal to number of appropriate class levels (for casting) or number of HD (for special abilities).

However, there are the odd little abilities who's caster level does not relate to class level or HD in a 1-to-1 manner. Also, there are those special few abilities that mess with CL in unique ways. I know a few of the top of my head, but I've never really looked for them, so I'm curious what others people might know about.

Examples I can rememberfrom the top of my head:
- Lantern Archons' SLAs are CL 3, regardless of HD
- Nymphs' phase door SLA is CL 7, same as their 7th level druid casting, but 1 higher than their 6 HD
- Mage Slayer feat chain reduces CL of creature (only ability with such a drawback afaik)


So yeah, what else is there?

[Flickerdart]

Duergar get this gem:

Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—enlarge person and invisibility as a wizard of twice the duergar’s class level (minimum caster level 3rd); these abilities affect only the duergar and whatever it carries.

[Crake]

There's a huge number of abilities that function on a set caster level. I think you'll find more often than not most SLAs use a set caster level, especially for outsiders, typically well above that of their own HD. A vampire's dominate gaze always functions at CL12 as well, meaning no matter how powerful (or weak) the vampire is, it's victims are always dominated for 12 days.

[MisterKaws]

Duergar get this gem:

Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—enlarge person and invisibility as a wizard of twice the duergar’s class level (minimum caster level 3rd); these abilities affect only the duergar and whatever it carries.


Guess I'll save that somewhere. Sounds like a no-brainer to take Obtain Familiar as a Duergar. Having 8th-level SLAs as a 13th-level Fighter is really funny, and the extra beatstick doesn't hurt.

Actually, just checked, and the newest version of it has those abilities as psi-like at 1:1, so it supersedes those older stats.

[Endarire]

There are a lot of creature abilities (especially SLAs) that have a specific caster level, regardless of creature HD. Even if a creature can cast spells as an X level class, SLAs are often separate.

[Thurbane]

Guess I'll save that somewhere. Sounds like a no-brainer to take Obtain Familiar as a Duergar. Having 8th-level SLAs as a 13th-level Fighter is really funny, and the extra beatstick doesn't hurt.

Actually, just checked, and the newest version of it has those abilities as psi-like at 1:1, so it supersedes those older stats.

I thought the psionic version of Duergar were actually optional or a sub-race, but I could be wrong.

In either case, in non-psionic games (like mine), the MM/SRD version takes precedence.

[Jowgen]

Duergar get this gem:

Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—enlarge person and invisibility as a wizard of twice the duergar’s class level (minimum caster level 3rd); these abilities affect only the duergar and whatever it carries.


I thought the psionic version of Duergar were actually optional or a sub-race, but I could be wrong.

In either case, in non-psionic games (like mine), the MM/SRD version takes precedence.

That is an interesting one. With that, Durgar should be able to qualify for things like Crafting feats way earlier than others. At just a +1LA, that seems like it could really be worth it for a dedicated crating character.


There's a huge number of abilities that function on a set caster level. I think you'll find more often than not most SLAs use a set caster level, especially for outsiders, typically well above that of their own HD. A vampire's dominate gaze always functions at CL12 as well, meaning no matter how powerful (or weak) the vampire is, it's victims are always dominated for 12 days.

I've had a look around, and while I originally thought that there might be some correlation between CL and CR (works for Lantern Archons & Pit Fiends); more often than not the CL seems utterly arbitrary. Even stranger, some of them are hard-wired into the creature type, with all Archons getting their Greater Teleport ability at CL 12.

[Inevitability]

Guess I'll save that somewhere. Sounds like a no-brainer to take Obtain Familiar as a Duergar. Having 8th-level SLAs as a 13th-level Fighter is really funny, and the extra beatstick doesn't hurt.

Actually, just checked, and the newest version of it has those abilities as psi-like at 1:1, so it supersedes those older stats.

Psionic Duergar ≠ Duergar.

[JoshuaZ]

Duergar get this gem:

Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—enlarge person and invisibility as a wizard of twice the duergar’s class level (minimum caster level 3rd); these abilities affect only the duergar and whatever it carries.


Hmm, and with just 1 LA, this could lead to some interesting early entry tricks. Acolyte of the Skin (too bad it is a very meh PrC), but Blood Magus, Enlightened Fist, and Mindbender, will all allow early entry. Am I missing something or does this trick actually work?

[Troacctid]

I don't believe it counts as an arcane caster level, since spell-like abilities are powered by innate magic, not arcane magic (with invocations being the exception). But it would work for anything that just requires a caster level, sure.

[Jowgen]

I don't believe it counts as an arcane caster level, since spell-like abilities are powered by innate magic, not arcane magic (with invocations being the exception). But it would work for anything that just requires a caster level, sure.

I've heard arguments that SLAs can, in some cases, be considered to be Arcane or Divine; provided that the spell in question is exclusive to either an Arcane or Divine spell list (i.e. Wish is always Arcane, Miracle always Divine). I think the argument made reference to that one rule about how Wiz/Sorc versions of spells should be considered the base version of a spell for SLA purposes, followed by the pecking order in case there isn't one. I don't think the argument stood up to the RAW all that well, but it's worth noting I think.

In continuation of the Duergar thing, this might make Duergar's good Magic-item-sweathshop Leadership followers; as most Item Creation feats with CL prerequesites don't need anything above a 10 (Craft Contingent spell, Craft Staff and Forge Ring being the 3 exceptions). So your 5th level Adept Durgar Followers can qualify for Etch Schema with the CL of 10.

[JoshuaZ]

I've heard arguments that SLAs can, in some cases, be considered to be Arcane or Divine; provided that the spell in question is exclusive to either an Arcane or Divine spell list (i.e. Wish is always Arcane, Miracle always Divine). I think the argument made reference to that one rule about how Wiz/Sorc versions of spells should be considered the base version of a spell for SLA purposes, followed by the pecking order in case there isn't one. I don't think the argument stood up to the RAW all that well, but it's worth noting I think.


There's also a separate argument here in favor of it which is that it says "as a wizard" not just "caster level equal to twice class level" and it isn't clear what "as a wizard" adds if it isn't making it functionally arcane.

[Troacctid]

There's also a separate argument here in favor of it which is that it says "as a wizard" not just "caster level equal to twice class level" and it isn't clear what "as a wizard" adds if it isn't making it functionally arcane.
It's actually very clear—it matters for spell level. Spells only have a spell level relative to what list they appear on, so if the list is undefined, so is the spell level, and it's impossible to figure out save DCs and Concentration DCs and things like that. There's a significant difference between casting suggestion as a wizard and casting suggestion as a bard. If there weren't any guidance on which version of the spell to use, the rules would be dysfunctional.

Also, control weather, but that's a weird corner case.

[JoshuaZ]

It's actually very clear—it matters for spell level. Spells only have a spell level relative to what list they appear on, so if the list is undefined, so is the spell level, and it's impossible to figure out save DCs and Concentration DCs and things like that. There's a significant difference between casting suggestion as a wizard and casting suggestion as a bard. If there weren't any guidance on which version of the spell to use, the rules would be dysfunctional.

Also, control weather, but that's a weird corner case.

Good points. So the list used doesn't say anything about the type.

[Troacctid]

Anyway, some of the implications of interpreting the rules that way are nonsensical—for example, not only is a cleric with the Community domain now an arcane caster, but her arcane caster level may actually be higher than her divine caster level.

[Jowgen]

Anyway, some of the implications of interpreting the rules that way are nonsensical—for example, not only is a cleric with the Community domain now an arcane caster, but her arcane caster level may actually be higher than her divine caster level.

That is true, although I still sometimes find it useful to be able to assign Divine/Arcane distinctions for specific spells; due to the existence of things like the Divine Denial feat. The aforementioned Miracle and Wish are the obvious ones, but there are also low levels ones, such as the humble Aid spell; which is exclusively divine across all lists. Then again, there are also annoying fringe cases, like Blasphemy; which happens to have an outlier arcane version on the Death Master spell list.

[DrKerosene]

Hmm, and with just 1 LA, this could lead to some interesting early entry tricks. Acolyte of the Skin (too bad it is a very meh PrC), but Blood Magus, Enlightened Fist, and Mindbender, will all allow early entry. Am I missing something or does this trick actually work?

I recall this being suggested as the easiest way to have a Lich in an E6 game. I've not checked the exact wording of many PrCs that would be relevant to normal games, but I'm sure the Blood Magus one is worded similarly enough to the Lich template that I think it's reasonable to get this perk for playing a Deugar.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ur priest and sublime chord both have a two-for-one CL progression, as does chameleon. I seem to recall a few other classes that do the same, but not what they are.