Rage Rogue? Roguebarian? Barroguian?

[Quoxis]

Hey guys, this is my first post on this site and i'm fairly new to D&D, so i'm sorry if i'm talking bs now.

I'm a fan of the not necessarily optimized but uncommon builds.
One of my ideas on this was the strength rogue - instead of the nimble ranged/finesse rogue one could use the strength stat as one's main attack ability score instead of dexterity.
Using ranged weapons is bad if not impossible that way, but finesse weapons (rapier, shortsword) work with dex OR strength, so attacking in melee is still possible. The main disadvantage of this idea is having access to only light armor while having a medium to low dex as well as only 1d8 hit points per level, which can be bypassed by choosing to play a mountain dwarf for medium armor - or multiclassing.

As everybody probably already guessed by the title, i'm planning on building a barbarian rogue multiclass.
I've read on multiple message boards that there's not much synergy there, but i don't really see that.

Starting as a rogue, put your highest ability scores into strength, constitution, followed by dex (making sure that it's still 13 or higher), do with the rest as you like.
Choose Athletics and whatever you like from the proficiency list, get twice your proficiency bonus on athletics and whatever else you want (maybe stealth to make up for the otherwise mediocre stats in your classes main skills), get proper wepons etc.

Now imagine grappling a foe.
With, let's say, 16 in strength (which is average to low for your highest stat) you'll have a +3 modifier in all strength skills - athletics. Athletics also gets twice your prof bonus, which makes +4, so you'll end up with a +7 modifier in the skill you need to pin down an enemy of up to one size larger than you. Not bad so far, especially for level one.

The downsides: You'll get smacked. Hard. You won't evade attacks as well as the standard rogue, and you're forced to get up close to the enemy. A bad combo? Yes. Indeed.

There are multiple solutions - not using this build, living a happy life without any problems - but that's not what i want. I want the killer rogue with the killer abs and the killer biceps. And with that in mind, i had to think of the muscle guy class: the barbarian.

I'm just making this on low level as there are dozens of possibilities about going further.
One level of barbarian adds unarmored defense (aw yiss, finally a bit more durability) and rage. What does rage do? It gives your squishy soft skin resistance to normal weapon damage, which is a good start, but also advantage on str checks and saving throws (i'll come back to that in a second) and an ok amount of extra weapon damage (remember: you're using a finesse weapon, but still with strength). With a shortsword, that would make 1d6+2. Not impressive, but if you have advantage (by attacking out of sneaking (while raging... possibly difficult to roleplay, but with creativity and an allowing DM it should be possible), by backstabbing while grappling, by having another teammate within 5ft of the baddy etc.), it's 2d6+2 for an attack by a second level character. Not bad.

This could go on and on: Grapple a foe with advantage (a grapple is an athletics skill check after all, so while you're raging you'll most likely make it if you're not tackling a dragon), shove him (which is possible in multiple ways: dual wield and use one attack to grapple and the other one to shove; use a feat like bar brawler or shield master; have multiple attack actions from a few more barbarian levels), and from then on stab him with advantage and bonus damage while he can't flee and attacks with disadvantage (you can even try to disarm him if you're not a masochist). It costs you a valuable turn to do that, but i figure you can disable an enemy pretty badly and deal a fair amount of damage while you're at it.

At second level of Barbarian you can simply choose to attack with advantage by using reckless attack. It comes at a price, but you deal 2d6+2 in that round. That's equivalent to the strongest weapon of them all, the almighty maul (which can't be used by small races, while the shortsword is perfect for short warriors), and can use a rapier instead, dealing 1d8+1d6+2 which is in theory slightly stronger than the aforementioned strongest weapon.

If you're too weak to take a punch: walk the path of the totem warrior, take the bear totem (seriously: does anyone use one of the other two EVER? Whenever i read up on barbarians y'all tell to take bear).
If you want more cool damage potential by advantage without initiating grapples etc., go the assassin way and surprise backstab a mofo.

Do i not see a critical flaw in this? As i said: It's not optimized, if it were i'd be posting "I take 20 levels of barbarian", but would you think this is a viable build? It's more useful out of combat than the barbarian, it can also do some feats of stregth way better than the usual spaghetti arm rogue, but in a fight it deals as much damage as a melee finesse rogue, doesn't have to run away from a fight with its unarmored defense and possible bear skin and has the option of really really good grapples, shoves etc.

Also: Just imagine a brute. A mean looking mountain of manly muscles menacingly making his way, maybe he's a bouncer, maybe a body guard, maybe a corrupt city watch. He's seen people fight with honor, but he knows that dirty fighting does the trick. He's the first one to hit and he hits hard, if that doesn't work he won't fence with you like a gentleman, he'll spit in your face and use the confusion to armlock you with one and stab your back with the knife in the other hand. That's the guy i'm seeing when i'm talking about this.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for reading this, i appreciate constructive criticizm (e.g. not saying "just go full fighter") as well as pointing out the thousands of mistakes i made when i thought this up.

[Biggstick]

This is actually a pretty common tank build. Start with 5-6 levels of Totem Barbarian, then go Rogue.

Ensure you have 14 Dex, and then max out Strength. Wear Medium armor, use a shield, and either a short sword or a rapier.

Half Orc plays particularly well with this combination, as it gives you the extra critical dice and the don't die mechanic.

Sentinel is a particularly strong feat with the build as it gives you extra opportunities for your sneak attack to trigger. And yes, you are the tank, you want people hitting you. You have 4 rages to get you through the day, and 18 AC for when you're not raging.

TLDR; This is actually a strong build that has been discussed quite a few times on these boards. The primary appeal is damage reduction from both Barbarian and Rogue abilities as well as the ability to trigger sneak attack when alone at will.

[mgshamster]

At first, I thought a Rogarian would be best. But then I realized the true calling. You need to be a Brogue. Bro.

[Joe the Rat]

Given he's going to be bathing in blood, Rougebarian works too.

[JellyPooga]

Just for lolz, you should give him a Scholar Background, because everyone loves the hulking brute who's really quite well educated!

But yeah, as has been mentioned, this build is awesome and I can vouch for it; it's a lot of fun being able to shake off all but the biggest hits, dishing hefty damage (especially on crits...oh how a Brogue loooves the crits!) and having out of combat utility.

If you can afford the Charisma, it also makes a surprisingly effective social character with the right skill choices and Background; the image of a big guy as the leader almost lets you get away with more than if the party face is of less than herculean proportions :smallwink:

[Naanomi]

Rogue 3/Barbarian 17
Half Orc
Assassin, Totem (stag/wolf/tiger)
Expertise: Stealth, Athletics
17/15/16/8/8/8
ASI: +1 Str/+1 Dex, Great Weapon Mastery,+2 Str, Alert

Rogue with a great axe! Sneak around with the best of them, and assassinate in surprise rounds with three brutal autocriticals! Supreme mastery of athletics makes you a good shove/grapple controlish type if needed as well

[Eladain]

Rogue 3/Barbarian 17
Half Orc
Assassin, Totem (stag/wolf/tiger)
Expertise: Stealth, Athletics
17/15/16/8/8/8
ASI: +1 Str/+1 Dex, Great Weapon Mastery,+2 Str, Alert

Rogue with a great axe! Sneak around with the best of them, and assassinate in surprise rounds with three brutal autocriticals! Supreme mastery of athletics makes you a good shove/grapple controlish type if needed as well

I've actually been wanting to try this one out for a while, or at least something similar. Fairly dependent upon how your DM handles surprise attacks, but seems fun.

[Naanomi]

I've actually been wanting to try this one out for a while, or at least something similar. Fairly dependent upon how your DM handles surprise attacks, but seems fun.
True, but as a raging barbarian you can start combat from further away (less likely to be detected) AND if you do get caught scouting... you are a barbarian and can survive just fine while your team catches us

[Kane0]

A strogue eh? Mayhap this (http://www.middlefingerofvecna.com/2016/08/enforcer.html) would be of interest to you?

[Quoxis]

This is actually a pretty common tank build. [...] This is actually a strong build that has been discussed quite a few times on these boards.

Huh. The first threads to pop up when searching for that multiclass all suggest to stay away from it and play fighter with urchin background etc.
Guess i wasn't looking hard enough.

[Quoxis]

A strogue eh? Mayhap this would be of interest to you?

Looked at it tbh, but i like to stick with the rules with as little homebrew as possible.
But hey, thanks for the tip anyways!

[Quoxis]

At first, I thought a Rogarian would be best. But then I realized the true calling. You need to be a Brogue. Bro.

Name suggestions?
Brosef Ballin? Bronstantine? Brorack Brobama?

[Arkhios]

I may be a bit silly, but one thing that I have an "issue" with is claiming "16 as average to low" when the maximum possible value for a stat (before any magical items - which you may never find) is 20. As such 16 is very good to start from as it's only 4 points away from maximum value.

[Quoxis]

Just for lolz, you should give him a Scholar Background, because everyone loves the hulking brute who's really quite well educated!

But yeah, as has been mentioned, this build is awesome and I can vouch for it; it's a lot of fun being able to shake off all but the biggest hits, dishing hefty damage (especially on crits...oh how a Brogue loooves the crits!) and having out of combat utility.

If you can afford the Charisma, it also makes a surprisingly effective social character with the right skill choices and Background; the image of a big guy as the leader almost lets you get away with more than if the party face is of less than herculean proportions :smallwink:

You mean the school bully? (Nelson from the Simpsons comes to mind... Haw haw)
I don't want to make him too MAD, sticking to str, con and dex is priority imo, but sure, almost every rogue build can be a great face.

As for the crits i even considered going three levels of fighter. Additional healing, action surge and via champion crits on 19 and 20.
I guess that'd be too big a dip to actually work though, given you want at least 5-6 levels of barbarian, 2-3 in rogue and 3 in fighter that way.

[Quoxis]

Rogue 3/Barbarian 17
Half Orc
Assassin, Totem (stag/wolf/tiger)
Expertise: Stealth, Athletics
17/15/16/8/8/8
ASI: +1 Str/+1 Dex, Great Weapon Mastery,+2 Str, Alert

Rogue with a great axe! Sneak around with the best of them, and assassinate in surprise rounds with three brutal autocriticals! Supreme mastery of athletics makes you a good shove/grapple controlish type if needed as well

Yet another good (and way more specific) idea for the concept.
I'd probably stick to the rapier and go higher in the rogue tree of this for better sneak attack damage, but as i said, there are too many possibilities to discuss them all.
Thanks for the idea, i'll definitely consider this, because aside from its ridiculousness i feel reminded of one of my favorite game characters, the Orc assassin with heavy armor and greatsword from TES 4: Oblivion.

[djreynolds]

Crazy question.

The UA scout fighter archetype can use his SD to augment skill checks and he gets parry and precision

Now lets say I have a scout (fighter) and rogue combo with shield master.

I use my bonus action to shove or even give up an attack to shove, can I use my SD to augment shoves and pushes then.

[Quoxis]

Thanks guys for all the good answers and for replying freakingly quickly. It's been like 6 hours. Wow.

[Arkhios]

Thanks guys for all the good answers and for replying freakingly quickly. It's been like 6 hours. Wow.

We regulars feed from the boards, we're here 24/7, except when we doze off from exhaustion :smallbiggrin:


Crazy question.

The UA scout fighter archetype can use his SD to augment skill checks and he gets parry and precision

Now lets say I have a scout (fighter) and rogue combo with shield master.

I use my bonus action to shove or even give up an attack to shove, can I use my SD to augment shoves and pushes then.

I think so, yes.

[Quoxis]

I may be a bit silly, but one thing that I have an "issue" with is claiming "16 as average to low" when the maximum possible value for a stat (before any magical items - which you may never find) is 20. As such 16 is very good to start from as it's only 4 points away from maximum value.

It isn't bad, but with multiclassing on low levels you're going to get those sweet ASI later than others. So while your Paladin is already at 18 strength you're one +1 modifier behind him (and what barbarian wants to have thinner arms than a paladin?! :P ).

Also i said "average to low *for your highest stat*."
Optimized builds start at 16-17 on their main stat at level one (as would this build with the right race, e.g. halforc, mountain dwarf etc), and focus on getting that as high as possible, that's what i was measuring by.

[Arkhios]

It isn't bad, but with multiclassing on low levels you're going to get those sweet ASI later than others. So while your Paladin is already at 18 strength you're one +1 modifier behind him (and what barbarian wants to have thinner arms than a paladin?! :P ).

Also i said "average to low *for your highest stat*."
Of course 16 is great for a secondary stat, but optimized builds start at 17-18 on their main stat at level one (as would this build with the right race, e.g. halforc, mountain dwarf etc), and focus on getting that as high as possible, that's what i was measuring by.

Erm, what I said was in fact intended to say that 16 is great even for a primary stat. Bonuses cap fairly low in 5th edition (please, get out of 3.P mindset), so it's not all that bad to have to wait for another level or two for the stat bump. From what I'm seeing, this build philosophy is more akin to min/max than optimizing, imho (the two are not always the same thing).

[Quoxis]

Erm, what I said was in fact intended to say that 16 is great even for a primary stat. Bonuses cap fairly low in 5th edition (please, get out of 3.P mindset), so it's not all that bad to have to wait for another level or two for the stat bump. From what I'm seeing, this build philosophy is more akin to min/max than optimizing, imho (the two are not always the same thing).

To get out of a 3.P mindset i'd have to be inside of it - i've started with 5e and never played anything else :D
I'm a notoriously unlucky guy when it comes to rolling dice though, so i'm always grabbing every little bonus point i can get, and as i thought about this build to include grappling as a core mechanic to disable enemies and get a fun alternate source of advantage for sneak attack damage, so having the highest possible athletics skill bonus is mandatory for me.
But i agree, for normal attacking etc. you wouldn't need 20 in anything, and a +3 modifier is pretty fantastic on every skillcheck etc.

[djreynolds]

Are you going 20 levels?

IMO, once you get 6 levels of barbarian... you go rogue the rest of the way. That's it.

You may not even need any feats for a barbarian or rogue. You can have rage and uncanny dodge, you have a reliable bonus action, and you only have to hit once for sneak attack a turn... that's your damage.

I would grab swashbuckler, the ability to SA without allies is to awesome

[Quoxis]

Are you going 20 levels?

IMO, once you get 6 levels of barbarian... you go rogue the rest of the way. That's it.

You may not even need any feats for a barbarian or rogue. You can have rage and uncanny dodge, you have a reliable bonus action, and you only have to hit once for sneak attack a turn... that's your damage.

I would grab swashbuckler, the ability to SA without allies is to awesome

20 levels? In theory yes, but most campaigns start at level 1 to 5 and dissolve before reaching that goal, that's why i start multiclassing at low levels - otherwise i might never get the chance.
The point of stopping one class and focusing on the other is fluid - more levels of rogue for better sneak attacks, more barbarian for better rage (as another comment suggested just 3 levels of rogue to become an assassin)
Swashbuckler is interesting but MAD as their additional abilities rely on charisma, except being able to get out of close combat without sacrificing an action - as the grapple/shove roguebarian/brogue gets advantage anyway the "sneak attack when alone on the field" is a nice additional feature to have, but not desperately needed (unless you're fighting a group - boy are you getting your arse kicked in that case).

[djreynolds]

20 levels? In theory yes, but most campaigns start at level 1 to 5 and dissolve before reaching that goal, that's why i start multiclassing at low levels - otherwise i might never get the chance.
The point of stopping one class and focusing on the other is fluid - more levels of rogue for better sneak attacks, more barbarian for better rage (as another comment suggested just 3 levels of rogue to become an assassin)
Swashbuckler is interesting but MAD as their additional abilities rely on charisma, except being able to get out of close combat without sacrificing an action - as the grapple/shove roguebarian/brogue gets advantage anyway the "sneak attack when alone on the field" is a nice additional feature to have, but not desperately needed (unless you're fighting a group - boy are you getting your arse kicked in that case).

But 2 more levels gives you uncanny dodge, half damage for a reaction. The pseudo disengage comes in handy when you are alone.

Also remember you can lean on your SA damage for a long time and just fight with twin short swords, back up for you sneak attack.

I have played many rogue/barbarians and rogue/fighters, they mesh together very well.

I prefer bear barbarian, the damage resistance is too good, and then grab tiger at 6 and get those extra skills.

Once you get the extra attack, go S&B.

Who cares about the charisma stuff and expertise in persuasion will make up for a low charisma

[Contrast]

Worth remembering the grappled condition ain't all that. You really need an extra attack (otherwise you might be better off just using the barbarian ability and then disengaging out of combat in the hope of not getting hit) and a feat before it comes online so with the multiclassing you're probably looking at almost level 10 before this actually comes online properly.

[Quoxis]

But 2 more levels gives you uncanny dodge, half damage for a reaction. The pseudo disengage comes in handy when you are alone.

Also remember you can lean on your SA damage for a long time and just fight with twin short swords, back up for you sneak attack.

I have played many rogue/barbarians and rogue/fighters, they mesh together very well.

I prefer bear barbarian, the damage resistance is too good, and then grab tiger at 6 and get those extra skills.

Once you get the extra attack, go S&B.

Who cares about the charisma stuff and expertise in persuasion will make up for a low charisma

Yeah, and two more levels of barb gives you another cool ability, and two levels of fighter give you action surge, and three levels of warlock eldritch invocations and...
That's the beauty of multiclassing: it's never perfect and always incomplete, and the point of stopping a dip differs from build to build.

[Quoxis]

Worth remembering the grappled condition ain't all that. You really need an extra attack (otherwise you might be better off just using the barbarian ability and then disengaging out of combat in the hope of not getting hit) and a feat before it comes online so with the multiclassing you're probably looking at almost level 10 before this actually comes online properly.

Use one action to grapple. Use bonus action to shove. Then you can move if you want.
Or shove without a grapple and stab the baddy with advantage. He'll stand up and fight back in the next round, but still.
Or do whatever the hell you want with your athletics checks.

[mgshamster]

, but optimized builds start at 17-18 on their main stat at level one

What build starts with an 18 using point buy?

[Contrast]

Use one action to grapple. Use bonus action to shove. Then you can move if you want.
Or shove without a grapple and stab the baddy with advantage. He'll stand up and fight back in the next round, but still.
Or do whatever the hell you want with your athletics checks.

I'm not saying its not useful to have options - I'm saying a lot of the time you're going to be better off stabbing the guy in the face than grappling him. It becomes a lot more viable when you have two attacks a round as you only get sneak attack once a turn (though obviously if you've taken enough levels of barbarian to get multiple attacks you have tanked your sneak attack damage a little to start).

Shieldmaster is pretty useful as you say but again, is it worth spending an action to grapple when you can shield bash for free every turn? There is a slight problem in that rogues already have stuff to be doing with bonus actions and they already get some of the stuff shieldmaster gives so a slight lack of synergy there but perfectly viable.

[JellyPooga]

You mean the school bully? (Nelson from the Simpsons comes to mind... Haw haw)
I don't want to make him too MAD, sticking to str, con and dex is priority imo, but sure, almost every rogue build can be a great face.

Heh, I was thinking more Conan the Barbarian than Nelson, but the "big bully" is certainly one way to go with it!

You don't need a lot of Charisma to have a decent shot at being the party face; Half-Orc comes with free Intimidation proficiency and Rogue gives you the option of picking up any other Charisma skills, even Expertise.

Race: Half-Orc
Background: Sailor
Class: Rogue 2/Barbarian 1
Str:14+2, Dex:14, Con:13+1, Wis:12, Int:8, Cha:12
Skills: (Race) Intimidation, (Background) Athletics, Perception, (Class) Acrobatics, Insight, Persuasion, Stealth
Expertise: Athletics, Intimidation

This is one character I played, starting level 3, point buy stats. None too smart and he was personable in that "gentle giant" way, but he had a scary side, made even more so by the fact that he was ordinarily so...well, jolly for want of a better word! Expertise in Intimidation meant a +5 mod; just as good as any Warlock or Paladin can achieve at that level. He was rocking a whip and a shield in melee, which was a lot of fun; the extra reach with only a slight reduction in damage came in handy more than once. Having the huge Athletics modifier (+7), combined with Advantage from Rage meant he was a god of the grapple; it's no great boast really, but holding a Troll in place while the others blasted it from range felt awesome!

For a more optimal build, you'd probably take Barbarian at first level, which means one less Skill proficiency, but I had an absolute blast playing this character. I never reached Rogue 6, but I intended to put my other two Expertise choices into Persuasion and Stealth.


As for the crits i even considered going three levels of fighter. Additional healing, action surge and via champion crits on 19 and 20.
I guess that'd be too big a dip to actually work though, given you want at least 5-6 levels of barbarian, 2-3 in rogue and 3 in fighter that way.

Barbarian and Rogue synergise really well; Rage + Uncanny Dodge makes you super tanky, Sneak Attack + Rage bonus damage means you've got a solid single hit damage output, Expertise + Rage means no Athletics check is beyond you. It's great...BUT, it can also do without further watering down each Class. Uncanny Dodge doesn't come online until Rogue 5, Extra Attack doesn't come online until Barbarian 5...that's Character Level 10 before even considering higher level abilities like Brutal Critical or Reliable Talent. Adding Fighter might seem like a good idea in the short term, but I'd resist the temptation. Rogue/Barbarian has more than enough going on to remain entertaining all the way to 20 without dipping elsewhere too.

My advice is take Barbarian at 1st, then dip Thief Rogue 3 for Cunning Action and Fast Hands (Use an Object as a bonus action + redunkulous Athletics is awesome for creating advantageous terrain). After that, you want to go Barbarian 5 then Rogue 5. From there, it's up to you. For myself I'd ride the Rogue train all the way to 20; Rogue offers more, sooner and you're already lagging behind single-class characters in terms of high level abilities. Barbarian takes a while to get anything really fun after 5th, while Rogue offers more immediate and consistent gains.

[Quoxis]

What build starts with an 18 using point buy?

Please tell me where i said point buy, because i really don't remember doing that.
Using the standard thingy you get a 17. Rolling a 16 is very possible.

[mgshamster]

Please tell me where i said point buy, because i really don't remember doing that.
Using the standard thingy you get a 17. Rolling a 16 is very possible.

No one "builds" for random rolling. That's not a build, that's luck. A build needs something consistent. It's why every single guide assumes point buy, and every single thread showing builds use point buy.

You're starting to use weasel words. Doing so will quickly cause people on these boards to stop helping you. I recommend against it.

[Ashuan21]

The Rogue/Barbarian is for sure one of the best grapplers, combining survivability, advantage on checks, multiattack and expertise.

Its only problem is the inability to grapple creatures bigger than Large, which, depending on the campaign, can be either a serious or an irrelevant limitation.
Ways to fix this (if you feel like you have to) are having a caster casting Enlarge on you or multiclassing Moon Druid up to the point you can Wildshape into a Large beast.

Even without these improvements the class is perfectly viable, and can be very useful to the party by shoving enemies all over the place.

For a much deeper analysis of grappler builds there's a beautiful "Grappler's Manual" by Ktkenshinx out there!!

[Arial Black]

I recently watched some podcasts of the first session of a Storm King's Thunder campaign. In SKT you can start at 1st level, but starting at 5th is optimal.

Given that, the DM instructed his players to come up with a 5th level PC, and choose two Uncommon magic items to start. I noted that the Cloak of Protection got a lot of love. :smallsmile:

So I started to wonder what PC I would make for that campaign. One of my priorities when designing PCs above 1st level is that they should have been viable PCs at at any of those levels prior to the level we start, so if I make a 5th level PC it had to have been viable at levels 1, 2, 3 and 4 as well as 5.

Also, if you start the game with magic items, then you should weave those magic items into your level progression. What I mean is that when playing a PC from level 1 you may very well have a plan for what you will choose at each level of your progression, but the acquisition of a magic item may very well alter those plans. As a simple example, if you planned on going sword and board and eventually taking the Shield Master feat, but before you got to the level where you planned to take the feat you found a Vorpal greatsword, then you may very well decide to keep it and take the GWM feat instead.

So the PC I'm in the middle of designing starts the campaign at 5th level with two magic items; barbarian 2/rogue 3, and the items are Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Headband of Intellect.

But this PC had to have been viable at every level, and probably would not have had any magic items at that point.

So at 1st level she was a vuman barbarian, but in terms of class not culture. Culturally she was a civilised soldier, trained in a style of fighting which employed a cold, emotionless rage (inspired by the Tetragrammaton Clerics in the film Equilibrium). The idea was to get two levels of barbarian then switch to fighter from then on.

Dex based barbarians are a valid idea, so she would use a rapier as the most damaging finesse weapon. Her stats at 1st level were Str 13 Dex 15+1 Con 15+1 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 8. Her background is Soldier. She is a trained member of the Avant Guard, which is based on this cold rage idea. She needs at least 13 Str in order to multiclass to fighter, maximum Dex and Con for both attack and defence (making good use of Unarmoured Defence), but only needs to follow orders so Int and Cha are not required.

During her adventures, while she is a 2nd level barbarian, she comes across a Headband of Intellect. Now, with 19 Int instead of 8, she starts to question why she is following the orders instead of giving them! She is now the smartest person in the room!

So at 3rd she chooses Rogue instead of the planned fighter level; she can't choose wizard because the headband doesn't count for multiclass qualification. This gets her a new skill, and she can choose to have Expertise in that new skill. So her Investigation skill went from -1 at 2nd level to +8 at 3rd!

At 5th she will be Bar 2/Rog 3 (and will have Gauntlets of Ogre Power, which helps!), and will advance as a rogue for the forseeable future. But what archetype?

Her role is to be a supreme melee combatant while helping the party as a whole. The Thief archetype doesn't help much, the Assassin would be do-able but doesn't help if you don't surprise the baddies, the Arcane Trickster seems to match her new Int score, but then you remember that she can't cast spells while raging. Looking at SCAG, my new favourite Swashbuckler seems perfect at first glance, but her lack of Cha combined with Reckless Attack rendering its main advantage moot (because she can Sneak Attack at will anyway), I turn to Mastermind. It matches the new massive intelligence, and the ability to Help as a bonus action in combat from 30 feet would help the whole party.

I won't miss the Extra Attack since my 1st attack does so much damage from SA and is unlikely to miss because of advantage from Reckless Attack.

I'm still wondering which feat I should take at 1st, and also what feat (or ASI) to take when I hit 6th level for Bar 2/Rog 4; any suggestions?

[Quoxis]

Doing so will quickly cause people on these boards to stop helping you. I recommend against it.

So far your only contributions were giving a name suggestion and correcting a mistake that was irrelevant to the question. Just saying.

I apologize for my wrong assumption. I've never used the point buy method and most guides i've read use the standard array, which doesn't grant an 18 at first level. Ok. That's where you were right.
Many, if not most, of the optimization threads i've read ask giving their rolled ability scores, so i thought that was valid. I stand corrected.

[Quoxis]

I recently watched some podcasts of the first session of a Storm King's Thunder campaign. In SKT you can start at 1st level, but starting at 5th is optimal.

Given that, the DM instructed his players to come up with a 5th level PC, and choose two Uncommon magic items to start. I noted that the Cloak of Protection got a lot of love. :smallsmile:

So I started to wonder what PC I would make for that campaign. One of my priorities when designing PCs above 1st level is that they should have been viable PCs at at any of those levels prior to the level we start, so if I make a 5th level PC it had to have been viable at levels 1, 2, 3 and 4 as well as 5.

Also, if you start the game with magic items, then you should weave those magic items into your level progression. What I mean is that when playing a PC from level 1 you may very well have a plan for what you will choose at each level of your progression, but the acquisition of a magic item may very well alter those plans. As a simple example, if you planned on going sword and board and eventually taking the Shield Master feat, but before you got to the level where you planned to take the feat you found a Vorpal greatsword, then you may very well decide to keep it and take the GWM feat instead.

So the PC I'm in the middle of designing starts the campaign at 5th level with two magic items; barbarian 2/rogue 3, and the items are Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Headband of Intellect.

But this PC had to have been viable at every level, and probably would not have had any magic items at that point.

So at 1st level she was a vuman barbarian, but in terms of class not culture. Culturally she was a civilised soldier, trained in a style of fighting which employed a cold, emotionless rage (inspired by the Tetragrammaton Clerics in the film Equilibrium). The idea was to get two levels of barbarian then switch to fighter from then on.

Dex based barbarians are a valid idea, so she would use a rapier as the most damaging finesse weapon. Her stats at 1st level were Str 13 Dex 15+1 Con 15+1 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 8. Her background is Soldier. She is a trained member of the Avant Guard, which is based on this cold rage idea. She needs at least 13 Str in order to multiclass to fighter, maximum Dex and Con for both attack and defence (making good use of Unarmoured Defence), but only needs to follow orders so Int and Cha are not required.

During her adventures, while she is a 2nd level barbarian, she comes across a Headband of Intellect. Now, with 19 Int instead of 8, she starts to question why she is following the orders instead of giving them! She is now the smartest person in the room!

So at 3rd she chooses Rogue instead of the planned fighter level; she can't choose wizard because the headband doesn't count for multiclass qualification. This gets her a new skill, and she can choose to have Expertise in that new skill. So her Investigation skill went from -1 at 2nd level to +8 at 3rd!

At 5th she will be Bar 2/Rog 3 (and will have Gauntlets of Ogre Power, which helps!), and will advance as a rogue for the forseeable future. But what archetype?

Her role is to be a supreme melee combatant while helping the party as a whole. The Thief archetype doesn't help much, the Assassin would be do-able but doesn't help if you don't surprise the baddies, the Arcane Trickster seems to match her new Int score, but then you remember that she can't cast spells while raging. Looking at SCAG, my new favourite Swashbuckler seems perfect at first glance, but her lack of Cha combined with Reckless Attack rendering its main advantage moot (because she can Sneak Attack at will anyway), I turn to Mastermind. It matches the new massive intelligence, and the ability to Help as a bonus action in combat from 30 feet would help the whole party.

I won't miss the Extra Attack since my 1st attack does so much damage from SA and is unlikely to miss because of advantage from Reckless Attack.

I'm still wondering which feat I should take at 1st, and also what feat (or ASI) to take when I hit 6th level for Bar 2/Rog 4; any suggestions?

Whoa, a comment matching the length of my post. Good job mate, i feel like that would make a nice novel.
As you are planning to go more into the rogue direction while relying on reckless attack, which grants enemies advantage on their attacks against you, i'd suggest investing in constitution or other ways of protection: your character has less hp than a full barbarian and lacks healing abilities. Unarmored defense grants you an AC of 16(?) at that point, which i'd boost to 17 by either taking two points in dex for better attack rolls or con for more hp.
As for feats, there are the ones you can't go wrong with like sentinel etc.
One handedly fighting with a rapier makes me think about defensive duelist, another nice addition to your AC.
Playing a dex character always opens up the possibility of ranged combat, so grabbing a bow and the sharpshooter feat for sneak sniper attacks is an option. A cold, heartless but cunning character like yours would probably do that, but that's up to you.
Hope i could help with what little i know.

[Quoxis]

The Rogue/Barbarian is for sure one of the best grapplers, combining survivability, advantage on checks, multiattack and expertise.

Its only problem is the inability to grapple creatures bigger than Large, which, depending on the campaign, can be either a serious or an irrelevant limitation.
Ways to fix this (if you feel like you have to) are having a caster casting Enlarge on you or multiclassing Moon Druid up to the point you can Wildshape into a Large beast.

Even without these improvements the class is perfectly viable, and can be very useful to the party by shoving enemies all over the place.

For a much deeper analysis of grappler builds there's a beautiful "Grappler's Manual" by Ktkenshinx out there!!

Thanks for the opinion and the tip, i think i already read that one, it's where i got the idea of combining grapple and shove.

[Specter]

If you're going to grapple, definitely go Wolf. They won't be able to run away as your companions bash away with advantage.

And definitely go Rogue 5 too, Uncanny Dodge is great along with Rage.

[Arial Black]

Whoa, a comment matching the length of my post. Good job mate, i feel like that would make a nice novel.

Cheers mate! :smallsmile:


As you are planning to go more into the rogue direction while relying on reckless attack, which grants enemies advantage on their attacks against you, i'd suggest investing in constitution or other ways of protection: your character has less hp than a full barbarian and lacks healing abilities. Unarmored defense grants you an AC of 16(?) at that point, which i'd boost to 17 by either taking two points in dex for better attack rolls or con for more hp.

She does lack healing, but a combination of needing less because of Rage and the rest of the party wanting to keep me upright because I constantly give them advantage should see me through.

I would hope for AC increasing magic items, like Bracers of Defence and Rings/Cloaks of Protection rather than worn armour.

Since my Str won't improve (unless I replace my Gauntlets of Ogre Power with a Belt of Giant Strength) I'm left with Dex or Con. Either would improve my AC by the same amount, but the extra HP from Con is more valuable than the slightly higher Initiative and Dex skills.


As for feats, there are the ones you can't go wrong with like sentinel etc.
One handedly fighting with a rapier makes me think about defensive duelist, another nice addition to your AC.

Yeah, Defensive Duelist is so strong and so appropriate for a rapier wielder that it's hard to see beyond that, so unless I see a convincing alternative I'll take that as my vuman bonus feat and I'm just wondering what I should do with my next ASI. Any suggestions as to what (and, more importantly, why) would be appreciated.


Playing a dex character always opens up the possibility of ranged combat, so grabbing a bow and the sharpshooter feat for sneak sniper attacks is an option. A cold, heartless but cunning character like yours would probably do that, but that's up to you.

Although she is perfectly fine in ranged combat, she will not take any feats for it. The abilities she already has (Rage, Reckless Attack) are all about melee. She'll probably have darts to throw.

She is not a cold, heartless person; out of combat she is smart and pragmatic but she does care about others even if she cannot communicate that as well as charismatic characters. It's just that, in combat, she goes into an emotionless fighting trance.

I'm inspired by Christian Bale's character John Preston in the film Equilibrium who was meant to be the best fighter in a world where showing emotion is a crime. When he starts to find emotion he finds it hard to cope with these new feelings and this brings his combat skill down to merely great!

At the end, he was hooked up to a lie-detector to check if he was being emotional while being asked questions designed to create an emotional response. There was a high-pitched tone getting higher and louder as he was getting more and more emotional, but they finally went too far! They asked one too many questions about his dead wife and then his face went blank and the high-pitched tone ended indicating that his emotional response had dropped to zero! The guy monitoring the lie-detector said "...oh, ****...." and John Preston proceeded to kill everyone in the ****ing building with no emotion and little difficulty, and the building was filled with the hardest fighters in the world!

I love that film.

So, that's the inspiration for fluffing the Rage as an emotionless combat state that gives her supreme combat abilities.


Hope i could help with what little i know.

Hey, all help is welcome. :smallsmile:

[Biggstick]

Her role is to be a supreme melee combatant while helping the party as a whole. The Thief archetype doesn't help much, the Assassin would be do-able but doesn't help if you don't surprise the baddies, the Arcane Trickster seems to match her new Int score, but then you remember that she can't cast spells while raging. Looking at SCAG, my new favourite Swashbuckler seems perfect at first glance, but her lack of Cha combined with Reckless Attack rendering its main advantage moot (because she can Sneak Attack at will anyway), I turn to Mastermind. It matches the new massive intelligence, and the ability to Help as a bonus action in combat from 30 feet would help the whole party.

I won't miss the Extra Attack since my 1st attack does so much damage from SA and is unlikely to miss because of advantage from Reckless Attack.

I'm still wondering which feat I should take at 1st, and also what feat (or ASI) to take when I hit 6th level for Bar 2/Rog 4; any suggestions?

Thief is actually quite useful for a Barbarian in melee combat. The ability to use the terrain around you with your Cunning Action is pretty phenomenal. If you plan on going deep into Rogue, the level 13 ability from Thief opens up every magic item in the game to your use. On the other side of that, Mastermind's level 13 ability forces an ally to take damage for you.

You should absolutely pick up 3-4 more levels of Barbarian. Picking an archetype for Barbarian, another rage per day (two a day won't cut it unless your DM is running one combat encounter a day, and if you go to Barb 6 it's 4 rages total a day), an ASI, an extra attack with which to land that sneak attack damage, 10 extra feet of movement (being able to move 80' on a turn and still be able to make two attacks is not to be underestimated), and an arguably useful Barb 6 ability.

Once you have those 6 levels of Barbarian, you don't ever have to look back at it again. Four rages is definitely enough to get you through the day. You're already at Rogue three, meaning you have the iconic Cunning Action already in hand.

[Arial Black]

Thief is actually quite useful for a Barbarian in melee combat. The ability to use the terrain around you with your Cunning Action is pretty phenomenal. If you plan on going deep into Rogue, the level 13 ability from Thief opens up every magic item in the game to your use. On the other side of that, Mastermind's level 13 ability forces an ally to take damage for you.

You should absolutely pick up 3-4 more levels of Barbarian. Picking an archetype for Barbarian, another rage per day (two a day won't cut it unless your DM is running one combat encounter a day, and if you go to Barb 6 it's 4 rages total a day), an ASI, an extra attack with which to land that sneak attack damage, 10 extra feet of movement (being able to move 80' on a turn and still be able to make two attacks is not to be underestimated), and an arguably useful Barb 6 ability.

Once you have those 6 levels of Barbarian, you don't ever have to look back at it again. Four rages is definitely enough to get you through the day. You're already at Rogue three, meaning you have the iconic Cunning Action already in hand.

I'm beginning to take the idea of a 3rd, 4th or 5th barbarian level more seriously. Assuming the Bar 2/Rog (mastermind) 3 start, and assuming in SKT that 10th level is the final level that will see play, what is the best level progression from 5th to 10th?

Since I last posted I decided that her background is Mercenary Veteran (SCAG); she is a member of a private organisation called The Avant Guard, who hire themselves out for a variety of tasks including bodyguarding, item/person retrieval, and other such missions; discretion guaranteed! As such, I decided that Sentinel was more appropriate for my vuman bonus feat, and I'll have to wait for my next ASI to get Defensive Duelist (Con and then Dex increases after that).

[smcmike]

This is a common and obvious build.

Personally, I like barbarian 5/rogue 15. Multiattack is very useful.

[Joe the Rat]

I'm beginning to take the idea of a 3rd, 4th or 5th barbarian level more seriously. Assuming the Bar 2/Rog (mastermind) 3 start, and assuming in SKT that 10th level is the final level that will see play, what is the best level progression from 5th to 10th?

Since I last posted I decided that her background is Mercenary Veteran (SCAG); she is a member of a private organisation called The Avant Guard, who hire themselves out for a variety of tasks including bodyguarding, item/person retrieval, and other such missions; discretion guaranteed! As such, I decided that Sentinel was more appropriate for my vuman bonus feat, and I'll have to wait for my next ASI to get Defensive Duelist (Con and then Dex increases after that).

Going 5-10, you will have 2 ASIs at best (taking at least 4 in each class). So base your plan on Sentinal (vhuman), DD (class1 4), then your stat boost (class2 4).

At this point if you want extra attack, it will come at 8 (Bar5/Rog3) at the earliest - around midway, depending on how intensity scales. This focus means your next steps are your barbarian archetype (we're talking Bear totem for the elemental resistance, since you can grant advantage via Bonus action from Mastermind), an ASI, then extra attack and fast movement. From there, you could go 6 for the feature, or grab rog4 for the ASI.

If DD is central to your plans, and you are okay with late-game extra attack, accelerate your ASIs. Go Rog4 next, then you can either run up Barb for the archetype and ASI, or grab Rog5 (uncanny dodge, 3d6 sneak), then switch to barb. This makes extra attack a literal end-game ability.

OR you could just go up Rogue the rest of the way, getting evasion, 4d6 sneak, and your last ASI at 10. This leaves you at 2 rages a day, so that is definitely something to manage.

[Quoxis]

This is a common and obvious.

I thought so too, but as i said, every optimization thread etc. that i read into was full of "just don't, the best for that is a fighter with urchin background".

[JellyPooga]

I thought so too, but as i said, every optimization thread etc. that i read into was full of "just don't, the best for that is a fighter with urchin background".

Urchin Fighter has almost no features that Rogue/Barbarian has bar Extra Attack. Sneak Attack? Nope. Rage + Uncanny Dodge for 1/4 damage? Nope. Expertise + Advantage for grapple-tastic times? Nope. Potential synergy between Assassin and Feral Instinct? Nope. The list goes on. They're very different builds with very different abilities and strengths.

As far as "a dude that fights in melee and has Stealth and Thieves Tools proficiency" goes, yeah, Urchin Fighter vaguely resembles Rogue/Barbarian, but aside from that...those guys were talking out of the wrong hole.

[Biggstick]

Going 5-10, you will have 2 ASIs at best (taking at least 4 in each class). So base your plan on Sentinal (vhuman), DD (class1 4), then your stat boost (class2 4).

At this point if you want extra attack, it will come at 8 (Bar5/Rog3) at the earliest - around midway, depending on how intensity scales. This focus means your next steps are your barbarian archetype (we're talking Bear totem for the elemental resistance, since you can grant advantage via Bonus action from Mastermind), an ASI, then extra attack and fast movement. From there, you could go 6 for the feature, or grab rog4 for the ASI.

If DD is central to your plans, and you are okay with late-game extra attack, accelerate your ASIs. Go Rog4 next, then you can either run up Barb for the archetype and ASI, or grab Rog5 (uncanny dodge, 3d6 sneak), then switch to barb. This makes extra attack a literal end-game ability.

OR you could just go up Rogue the rest of the way, getting evasion, 4d6 sneak, and your last ASI at 10. This leaves you at 2 rages a day, so that is definitely something to manage.

This is a very well thought out progression and I agree with it entirely.

I'd still recommend going the Barbarian route though, at least till Barbarian 5. You have the iconic abilities of Rogue already, and tbh playing the Rogue is more about playstyle and mindset over anything else. If you're have more Barbarian levels then Rogue levels for a little while, that doesn't necessarily mean other players will know what level set-up you have. You could just as easily be a tougher then normal Rogue for all they know.

[smcmike]

This is a very well thought out progression and I agree with it entirely.

I'd still recommend going the Barbarian route though, at least till Barbarian 5. You have the iconic abilities of Rogue already, and tbh playing the Rogue is more about playstyle and mindset over anything else. If you're have more Barbarian levels then Rogue levels for a little while, that doesn't necessarily mean other players will know what level set-up you have. You could just as easily be a tougher then normal Rogue for all they know.

Yeah. I like Barb 1, Rogue 1, Barb to 5, Rogue to 15. You miss out on Cunning Action for a long time, but Rage eats a bonus action anyways, as do the fun feats for this build, Shield Master and Tavern Brawler.

Thematically, you can be Shirtless Action Guy, who is basically just tougher and faster and stronger than anyone else in the game. Fighters always feel like soldiers to me, with their heavy armor. This build can feel like a civilian/superhero.

[Arial Black]

Going 5-10, you will have 2 ASIs at best (taking at least 4 in each class). So base your plan on Sentinal (vhuman), DD (class1 4), then your stat boost (class2 4).

At this point if you want extra attack, it will come at 8 (Bar5/Rog3) at the earliest - around midway, depending on how intensity scales. This focus means your next steps are your barbarian archetype (we're talking Bear totem for the elemental resistance, since you can grant advantage via Bonus action from Mastermind), an ASI, then extra attack and fast movement. From there, you could go 6 for the feature, or grab rog4 for the ASI.

If DD is central to your plans, and you are okay with late-game extra attack, accelerate your ASIs. Go Rog4 next, then you can either run up Barb for the archetype and ASI, or grab Rog5 (uncanny dodge, 3d6 sneak), then switch to barb. This makes extra attack a literal end-game ability.

OR you could just go up Rogue the rest of the way, getting evasion, 4d6 sneak, and your last ASI at 10. This leaves you at 2 rages a day, so that is definitely something to manage.

...Yes...those are indeed the options. :smallsmile:

I appreciate your well-thought-out post. Briefly, the options I'm considering are:-

* just take rogue levels forever after, ending at Bar 2/Rog 8
* get Extra Attack ASAP (8th) by going to Bar 5/Rog 3, then ending at 5/5 which delays Uncanny Dodge until the final level
* get Uncanny Dodge ASAP (7th) by going to Bar 2/Rog 5, then ending at 5/5 which delays Extra Attack until the final level

I want both! :smallsmile:

One problem with raising Bar above 2nd is that I'm fluffing Rage as a cold, emotionless fury in a person who has never lived in the wilderness, is from a civilised culture and wouldn't recognise an animal totem if she tripped over one. Frenzy would compete for my bonus action too much, rendering Mastermind pointless.

If I bit the bullet and took a totem, I'd at least get to see what the other PCs were first. I'd choose Wolf if there were enough melee PCs; I'd grant advantage to those adjacent to me while still being able to Help a PC attack a foe who is not next to me. If there weren't, I'd choose Bear because Wolf would be wasted.

The extra Rage, Extra Attack and Fast Movement are all cool, but if I went 5/5 I'd miss out on Evasion; useful in case of dragons!

Decisions, decisions! :smallsmile: