Sublime Chord caster level ...

[schreier]

I've seen a lot of different treatments, and wanted to just double check one thing.

It says "A sublime chord’s caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class."

From my current understanding, "arcane spellcasting class" is the class that grants spells without any +1 Caster Level prestige classes.

So if you had this situation:

Sorcerer 5 / Spellsinger 5 / Sublime Chord 1:

Your Sorcerer casting would be:
Spells known - as level 10 sorcerer
Sorcerer Caster level - level 6 (Sorcerer 5 + Sublime Chord 1)

Is that correct? Seems silly ... can you ignore the ability, and stay level 10 as a sorcerer until Sublime Chord + Sorcerer >= 10?

The Spellsinger levels will never come into play, right?

It could also be:
Sorcerer 5 + Sublime Chord 1 + Spellsinger 5 (So the Sublime Chord calculation goes into effect first, then the Spellsinger adds) - meaning level 11 Sorcerer, level 6 Sublime Chord

Thoughts?

[Jack_Simth]

It could also be:
Sorcerer 5 + Sublime Chord 1 + Spellsinger 5 (So the Sublime Chord calculation goes into effect first, then the Spellsinger adds) - meaning level 11 Sorcerer, level 6 Sublime Chord

Thoughts?

You're going to have a touch of trouble getting Sublime Chord in for level 6...

Ignoring that, though...
You'll get disagreement. Basically it amounts to "what counts as a level of an existing spellcasting class when you're calculating caster level?"
Some will look at it as "must be a casting class, and the PrC levels aren't, so it doesn't work." Others will look at it as "Well, the PrC says it adds to your caster level as though you took a level in the other class, and that one is counted, and you're calculating caster level, so it works."

[schreier]

Not getting Sublime Chord in a 6 ... if you are a 5 Sorcerer / 5 Spellsinger - you are level 10. Your next level, as Sublime Chord - would make you 11. But if you read that your arcane spellcasting level is determined by your arcane spellcaster class plus your sublime chord - that you could be interpreted as:

Sorcerer 5 / Sublime Chord 1 = level 6 caster, even though level 11 character

Now ... that level 6 could either be your spellcaster level, or you can add your prestige class after - so add the 5 from spellsinger for your sorcerer level at that point (making you level 11 casting sorcerer / level 6 casting sublime chord)

I hope it's not level 6 for each, because that would suck.

My guess is, in this example, your either:
level 10 sorcerer, or level 11 - depending on how you read the text

[TristanS]

I can't imagine a prestige class lowering your caster level ...

So obviously it's either Sorcerer 10 (basically the higher of Sorcerer + prestige classes, or Sorcerer + Sublime chord ... 10 or 6 in this case ...)

This would mean caster levels Sorcerer 10 / Sublime Chord 6 in this case (spells known as Sorcerer 10/Sublime Chord 1)

OR

the base class caster level is determined including the Sublime Chord, then the prestige class is added (so Sorcerer + Sublime chord = 6 (which replaces sorcerer 5), then add the Spellsinger 5)

This would mean caster levels Sorcerer 11 / Sublime Chord 6 (spells still known as Sorcerer 10 / Sublime Chord 1)

I'm inclined to go with the second interpretation, just because it makes sense - not so much because of any explicitly stated rule.

[Troacctid]

From my current understanding, "arcane spellcasting class" is the class that grants spells without any +1 Caster Level prestige classes.
Probably not a safe assumption. To my knowledge, "arcane spellcasting class" is not defined anywhere in the rules.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I can't imagine a prestige class lowering your caster level ...

So obviously it's either Sorcerer 10 (basically the higher of Sorcerer + prestige classes, or Sorcerer + Sublime chord ... 10 or 6 in this case ...)

This would mean caster levels Sorcerer 10 / Sublime Chord 6 in this case (spells known as Sorcerer 10/Sublime Chord 1)

OR

the base class caster level is determined including the Sublime Chord, then the prestige class is added (so Sorcerer + Sublime chord = 6 (which replaces sorcerer 5), then add the Spellsinger 5)

This would mean caster levels Sorcerer 11 / Sublime Chord 6 (spells still known as Sorcerer 10 / Sublime Chord 1)

I'm inclined to go with the second interpretation, just because it makes sense - not so much because of any explicitly stated rule.
You can't really have different caster levels if both are determined the same way.

Personally i go with "arcane caster base class + any levels that advance it" basically keep CL=HD unless you explicitly lose casting progression, which was probably the intention.

[schreier]

Sublime Chord has it's own spells ...
It's like having two arcane spellcaster classes (Sorcerer and Sublime Chord in this case) - could be Wizard/Sorcerer - and then you definitely have definitely spellcaster levels, right?

Just how to interpret the "A sublime chord’s caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class."

Here's an existing discussion defining "Spellcaster class"
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?264860-What-is-an-arcane-divine-spellcasting-class

In particular, this post in the thread makes good points I think:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14400268&postcount=35


sleepyphoenixx - how would you interpret it in this case?

Sorcerer 5 / Spellsinger 5 / Sublime Chord 1

When the character was level 10 (before taking the level of Sublime Chord), he was a level 10 sorcerer.

Taking level 11 gives him the new spellcasting class Sublime Chord. This does not add spells known or anything to the sorcerer levels. So the character clearly has spells known as a level 10 sorcerer, and a level 1 sublime chord.

HOWEVER, the Sublime Chord text states that: "A sublime chord’s caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class."

So do you interpret the character's level in another arcane spellcasting class as 10, so would cast everything as a level 11 caster? It doesn't say "Caster level in another spellcasting class" - it says "level in another arcane spellcasting class." In this case, the character has 5 levels of sorcerer, and 5 levels of Spellsinger ... so that seems to have 5 levels in an "arcane spellcasting class," right?

It sounds like you read "arcane spellcasting class" as "caster level in another arcane spellcasting class?"

[Stealth Marmot]

When you pick Sublime chord, pick a spell progression. Sorcerer for example. When you cast Sublime Chord spell, your caster level is

(Levels in sorcerer + Levels in Sublime chord + Any appropriate abilities or feats that increase caster level depending on circumstance)

Now if you took a different class that had it's own progression, say you had 3 levels in bard and 7 levels in sorcerer, then those classes would not stack.

If instead you have a prestige class that has the ability under spells per day "+1 to existing class) then those levels WOULD stack WITH THE SPELL PROGRESSION YOU APPLIED IT TO.

[schreier]

Stealth Marmot -

So you are saying, in this case, you'd say the caster levels would be: 11 Sorcerer / 6 Sublime Chord?

This case has a prestige class advancing Sorcerer, and then Sublime Chord separately.

[Menzath]

Ah yes sublime chord. It definitely functions a little differently than other + caster level classes in that it states (paraphrased) your arcane caster classes (yes plural) are = to SC cl+ 1other arcane cl. Goofy.

But if you want to caster level stack with it there are a few tricks with prcs that grant bardic music and ultimate magus(prestige bard is a good choice).

[sleepyphoenixx]

So do you interpret the character's level in another arcane spellcasting class as 10, so would cast everything as a level 11 caster? It doesn't say "Caster level in another spellcasting class" - it says "level in another arcane spellcasting class." In this case, the character has 5 levels of sorcerer, and 5 levels of Spellsinger ... so that seems to have 5 levels in an "arcane spellcasting class," right?

It sounds like you read "arcane spellcasting class" as "caster level in another arcane spellcasting class?"

Not quite. I count class levels, not caster level, but i count "+1 casting" PrCs as adding to the base clase in this case.
So yes, he would cast as a level 11 caster for all his spells.
The difference is that you can't double-dip into CL increasers. Like the Ring of Arcane Might still adds only +1 to your CL, not +1 to Sorcerer and +1 to Sublime Chord and then stack the two.

Yes, you might argue that by a strict reading only the sorcerer levels count.
But then his CL would be 6 for all his casting, which is obviously unacceptable at level 11 when you've not lost casting progression even once.
So i go by the common sense interpretation. You've advanced your sorcerer casting for 10 levels, you add a level of SC, you now cast as a level 11 caster for both.

If you had a third arcane casting class for whatever reason it it would be different, because it's not the same progression. If you were a Sorcerer 5/Wizard 5/Sublime Chord 1 your CL would be 6 for all of them.

[schreier]

That's a very reasonable interpretation... I wonder if most people have that one?

[Stealth Marmot]

Stealth Marmot -

So you are saying, in this case, you'd say the caster levels would be: 11 Sorcerer / 6 Sublime Chord?

This case has a prestige class advancing Sorcerer, and then Sublime Chord separately.

I don't have the prestige classes in front of me, but from what my memory serves, your caster level should either be 11 in both classes, or 10 when casting sorcerer spells and 11 when casting sublime chord spells.

[schreier]

Not quite. I count class levels, not caster level, but i count "+1 casting" PrCs as adding to the base clase in this case.
So yes, he would cast as a level 11 caster for all his spells.
The difference is that you can't double-dip into CL increasers. Like the Ring of Arcane Might still adds only +1 to your CL, not +1 to Sorcerer and +1 to Sublime Chord and then stack the two.

Yes, you might argue that by a strict reading only the sorcerer levels count.
But then his CL would be 6 for all his casting, which is obviously unacceptable at level 11 when you've not lost casting progression even once.
So i go by the common sense interpretation. You've advanced your sorcerer casting for 10 levels, you add a level of SC, you now cast as a level 11 caster for both.

If you had a third arcane casting class for whatever reason it it would be different, because it's not the same progression. If you were a Sorcerer 5/Wizard 5/Sublime Chord 1 your CL would be 6 for all of them.


I think I can support this position with the language from the Spellsinger:
"Spells per Day: When a new spellsinger level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of spellsinger to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before he became a spellsinger, he must decide to which class he adds each level of spellsinger for the purpose of determining spells per day."

That last sentence could be used to say that the "Wizard" level includes the Spellsinger levels for the calculation.

[Stealth Marmot]

The language supports it, however I'm not sure sublime chord increases the level of the spells you cast that are NOT from the Sublime chord's spell list.

[schreier]

The language supports it, however I'm not sure sublime chord increases the level of the spells you cast that are NOT from the Sublime chord's spell list.

I am sure of that - at least to some degree. It says "A sublime chord’s caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class."

It clearly says "for both" - but it might not apply with the prestige classes as well - that's the confusion (either base + sublime, or base + prestige + sublime)

[sleepyphoenixx]

The language supports it, however I'm not sure sublime chord increases the level of the spells you cast that are NOT from the Sublime chord's spell list.

The CL is explicitly the same for Sublime Chord and your arcane base class. It's determined by the exact same method. They can't be different. It's basic logic.

[schreier]

The CL is explicitly the same for Sublime Chord and your arcane base class. It's determined by the exact same method. They can't be different. It's basic logic.

It says "determined ... by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class." It doesn't say that the caster level is equal to - it says determined by ...

You could argue that the "base level" is determined, then you add the prestige class.

In the D&D 3.5 FAQ (not official, but as close as we'll get) it says

"As a general guideline, whenever the rules don't stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that's most beneficial to the creature. In the case of damage, this typically means applying any damage-reducing effects first, before applying any effects that would increase damage."

So - if you determine the caster level for the classes by adding Sublime Chord to the arcane spellcasting class ... then add the Prestige class .. you could argue that Sublime Chord is 6 and Sorcerer is 11 in this case ...

If you use sleepyphoenixx's interpretation, you apply the prestige class bonus first, so both are 11 (which is more advantageous)

If you strictly interpret spellcasting class, then both would be set at 6 by sublime chord, but I would argue that you could pick between 6 and 10 then (so you would stay at level 10, until you have 6 levels in sublime chord - at that point, it would progress for each additional sublime chord level)

[sleepyphoenixx]

It doesn't matter what interpretation you use. The CL for your arcane base class and Sublime Chord has to be the same value.
I don't know how much clearer i can say this: They use the same method to determine CL either way. You add X to Y. You can't have X + Y = 6 and X + Y = 11 at the same time. It's impossible.

You could argue that PrCs that advance casting don't count towards you arcane base class in the calculation, if you want to for whatever reason.
But then they count for neither. Because X + Y is either 6 or 11, but not both.

Of course by that interpretation PrCs that advance your Sublime Chord casting don't count towards CL either.
So the usual builds of Base 5/PrC 5/SC 2/PrC 8 would have a CL of 7. At level 20. Which is clearly asinine. So yes, you could read it that way, the language allows it. But why in the world would you?
And if your DM interprets it like that he probably doesn't want you to play a Sublime Chord. Or only play one if you're base 10/SC 10, with no prestiging beside that.

[Stealth Marmot]

The CL is explicitly the same for Sublime Chord and your arcane base class. It's determined by the exact same method. They can't be different. It's basic logic.

I didn't have the language in front of me so I couldn't check.

Language seems to support the idea that sublime chord allows your spellcasting level to progress in both.

Logic also follows. I tend to think from a game designer's standpoint when it comes to rules like this: "What would make sense? What would be balanced, preventing both exploits and the class being useless or counterproductive?"

[schreier]

The reason I went down the path of trying to figure it out is that people tried to abuse it with the whole master spellthief thing to get insane caster levels

This earlier conversation is where I tried to go down that route ... this is a simpler / only Sublime and prestige related conversation though.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?491629-Alternative-Source-Spell-Prestige-Class-Qualification-Feat-interaction

[TristanS]

I didn't have the language in front of me so I couldn't check.

Language seems to support the idea that sublime chord allows your spellcasting level to progress in both.

Logic also follows. I tend to think from a game designer's standpoint when it comes to rules like this: "What would make sense? What would be balanced, preventing both exploits and the class being useless or counterproductive?"

I agree - logically, the sorcerer caster level should not be decreased by taking a level in sublime chord ... and if they are determined in the same fashion, then logically both must include the prestige class levels ... right?

So highest caster level among arcane casting "classes" (sorcerer, wizard, bard, beguiler, etc...), factoring in only prestige classes ... add that to sublime chord (and any prestige classes) ... that makes the most sense
(in a more complex example, assuming - beguiler 5 / bard 1 / rainbow servant 10 (advancing beguiler) / sublime chord 1 / loremaster 1 (advancing sublime chord) - would be level 17 for every class? Beguiler 5 + Rainbow Servant 10 + Sublime Chord 1 + Loremaster 1)

Second best answer - which would also work - determine "base class" level by adding base levels to sublime chord - then add any prestige classes to their individual caster classes
(same example would give you Beguiler 5 + Sublime Chord 1 = base class 6 for everyone ... then Beguiler would be 16 (the 6 + 10 from PrC), the bard would be 6 (base 6, no PrC), and Sublime Chord would be 7 (base 6 + Loremaster 1)

I like the first answer for simplicity (I use the term loosely) and consistency. I think that is what everyone is saying as well.

Agreed?