Protecting against Dexterity damage?

[SangoProduction]

I have 1 character in PF, and another in 3.5, who both have 1 Dexterity (and is a melee character) at level 4. It's fine because he has 34 Con, so most things that need a Reflex save, he doesn't really care about.

...However, there is one little problem...ability damage. Specifically Dexterity Damage. If that takes a hit, I'm instantly paralyzed. So yeah. I need to know of, and prevent being targeted by that.

I know of Shivering Touch in 3.5...and there's absolutely no way I'm going to be able to protect against that, if it's aimed at me. I have no touch ac. However, the 3.5 DM is relatively low power, and so I don't think he'd use shivering touch with some sorta spell that extends his range, meanwhile I already have 10 ft reach, and plan to have 15 ft in another couple levels, so it would be difficult for a caster to touch me.

There are a bunch of poisons, but they suck anyway, and I have 34 Con.

Anything else I need to think of?

[CharonsHelper]

I have 1 character in PF, and another in 3.5, who both have 1 Dexterity (and is a melee character) at level 4. It's fine because he has 34 Con, so most things that need a Reflex save, he doesn't really care about.

Frankly - the fact that these are even possible means that you're using so many house-rules that anything recommended here will be of dubious use.

[Nifft]

You may also need to worry about penalties to Dexterity like fatigued or exhausted.

There are spells that can inflict those conditions without any save.

[SangoProduction]

You may also need to worry about penalties to Dexterity like fatigued or exhausted.

There are spells that can inflict those conditions without any save.

Right. Yeah. I'll look in to getting immunity to fatigue. I was already planning on it because of Pathfinder Barbarian...Oh...that's going to be awkward. Until that's done, I'll be flat on my arse every time I finish raging. Well.


Frankly - the fact that these are even possible means that you're using so many house-rules that anything recommended here will be of dubious use.

Incredibly useful speculation.

[SangoProduction]

Found the Renewed Vitality (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/renewed-vitality-ex) barbarian rage power for Pathfinder. Could be useful.

[CharonsHelper]

Incredibly useful speculation.

It's not speculation. There is no standard way to get a 34 CON at level 4 unless you're using a very high LA race. (Unless I'm missing something horribly.)

[darkdragoon]

Shape Soulmeld for Strongheart Vest is the de facto solution to ability drain and damage, but it doesn't necessarily keep up (and you don't exactly have a lot of wiggle room).

If you have rage (and with all that Con, you ought to think about it) Mad Foam Rager will let you ignore conditions, well, at least as long as you can trigger it.

Seriously consider dipping into Binder for Naberius as you can't get his faster ability healing through the Bind Vestige line of feats.

[SangoProduction]

Shape Soulmeld for Strongheart Vest is the de facto solution to ability drain and damage, but it doesn't necessarily keep up (and you don't exactly have a lot of wiggle room).

If you have rage (and with all that Con, you ought to think about it) Mad Foam Rager will let you ignore conditions, well, at least as long as you can trigger it.

Seriously consider dipping into Binder for Naberius as you can't get his faster ability healing through the Bind Vestige line of feats.

Mad Foam Rager is definitely something I could do. It'll at least allow me to go one final round and try to take someone with me. Strongheart Vest is pretty useful. Not sure I can really prevent enough Dex Damage with it though, especially without essentia.

Can you explain why Bind Vestige wouldn't work for Naberius? Perhaps it's just my utter lack of any knowledge about binders talking, but it seems as though you should be able to.

[Erit]

Can you explain why Bind Vestige wouldn't work for Naberius? Perhaps it's just my utter lack of any knowledge about binders talking, but it seems as though you should be able to.

The Bind Vestige feat doesn't let you bind them the same way actual Binder levels would; you get one specific ability (often the least-awesome one) in exchange for a feat and having no option to suppress signs. In exchange for another feat (Practiced Binder) you get a secondary specific ability. For Naberius, you get Naberius' Skills for Bind Vestige, and Silver Tongue for Practiced Binder. Neither of those is the Faster Healing Ability power, which is the one most people go to Naberius for.

[darkdragoon]

Can you explain why Bind Vestige wouldn't work for Naberius? Perhaps it's just my utter lack of any knowledge about binders talking, but it seems as though you should be able to.

Bind Vestige and Practiced Binder limit you to a specific list: with Naberius you get his skills and Silver Tongue, nothing else.

Edit: Ninjaed!

[Inevitability]

Become a construct or undead?


The Bind Vestige feat doesn't let you bind them the same way actual Binder levels would; you get one specific ability (often the least-awesome one) in exchange for a feat and having no option to suppress signs. In exchange for another feat (Practiced Binder) you get a secondary specific ability. For Naberius, you get Naberius' Skills for Bind Vestige, and Silver Tongue for Practiced Binder. Neither of those is the Faster Healing Ability power, which is the one most people go to Naberius for.

Silver Tongue is popular with diplomancer builds.

[Zombimode]

Strongheart Vest is pretty useful. Not sure I can really prevent enough Dex Damage with it though, especially without essentia.

It's not pretty, but Bonus Essentia is a general feat.


Can you explain why Bind Vestige wouldn't work for Naberius? Perhaps it's just my utter lack of any knowledge about binders talking, but it seems as though you should be able to.

Bind Vestige doesn't provide the full benefit of the bound vestige. Instead the benefits provided by Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige Practiced Binder are listed explicitly for all applicable Vestiges. The ability damage fast heal is not one of them.

[SangoProduction]

Become a construct or undead?

Is there anyway to do that without losing the Con bonus? I can't change my base race. What all is this protecting from? Just fatigue and exhaustion?

[Erit]

Is there anyway to do that without losing the Con bonus? I can't change my base race. What all is this protecting from? Just fatigue and exhaustion?

Undead are immune to all forms of energy drain and ability drain, and their physical ability scores can't be damaged. Also immune to fatigue/exhaustion, death from massive damage, critical hits, any mind-affecting spells or abilities, sleep/paralysis/stunning/disease/death effects, and anything requiring a fortitude save unless it would also work on an object.

You lose the Con bonus, but in exchange the loss of the Con bonus becomes, in many ways, irrelevant. Why you even need the ludicrous Con score escapes my comprehension.

[Demidos]

Sheltered Vitality Spell.
Cloak of Shadows (or maybe Shadow Cloak) (Drow of the Underdark) 5.5k -- 3/day immediate action teleport allows you to effectively dodge targeted attacks.
Talisman of Undying Fortitude 8k -- Swift action undead immunities for 3 rounds 2/day.

If you're really scared of shivering touch in particular a Spellblade (2k or 6k or so) of Shivering touch will negate that particular concern.

[SangoProduction]

Undead are immune to all forms of energy drain and ability drain, and their physical ability scores can't be damaged. Also immune to fatigue/exhaustion, death from massive damage, critical hits, any mind-affecting spells or abilities, sleep/paralysis/stunning/disease/death effects, and anything requiring a fortitude save unless it would also work on an object.

You lose the Con bonus, but in exchange the loss of the Con bonus becomes, in many ways, irrelevant. Why you even need the ludicrous Con score escapes my comprehension.

Well, considering that if I lose the Con, there's no reason to use the Gelatinous Cube, thus invalidating this whole exercise. Dude. I get it. You don't like it. But frankly, it's not your game. Thanks for responding with the Undead immunities.


Sheltered Vitality Spell.
Cloak of Shadows (or maybe Shadow Cloak) (Drow of the Underdark) 5.5k -- 3/day immediate action teleport allows you to effectively dodge targeted attacks.
Talisman of Undying Fortitude 8k -- Swift action undead immunities for 3 rounds 2/day.

If you're really scared of shivering touch in particular a Spellblade (2k or 6k or so) of Shivering touch will negate that particular concern.

Oh, missed the part where Sheltered Vitality shielded against ability loss. Unfortunately, only 1 minute / level, but I think I can convince the Cleric to help after I go down the first time to this ability damage. Cloak of Shadows. I've got to get it. Talisman of Undying Fortitude is great and all, but you've got to already know you're going to take damage up to 3 rounds in advance.

[Rebel7284]

I am curious to know how you got so much Con so early as well!

I mean, Mineral Warrior Dragonborn Mongrelfolk with LA buyof would be my to-go, but that's only 29 at 4th.

edit: 31 after a +2 item.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You should also consider buffing your dexterity. Even if poison reduces it to 0, I don't think it will go negative (but I'm not sure). A +2 item on top of that will keep you running.

[SangoProduction]

You should also consider buffing your dexterity. Even if poison reduces it to 0, I don't think it will go negative (but I'm not sure). A +2 item on top of that will keep you running.

I got confirmation from the PF dm that it is in fact at a minimum of 0. I will have to check with him whether magic items count on top of that minimum (effectively raising the minimum to 2), or us factored in to the total before the minimum is in place (so a +2 Dex item would simply mean I could take 3 Dex damage instead of just 1).

I believe the most likely to happen is the latter.

[Darrin]

I am curious to know how you got so much Con so early as well!

If you haven't seen the OP's earlier posts, he's using a gelatinous cube monster class from Dreamscarred Press' April Augmented (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/179672/April-Augmented). GCube starts with a 26 Con, or a +16 Con modifier if you're rolling ability scores. After that, probably some template wankery, but some of the templates really gank your Dex score.

Immunity to poison is a thing. Periapt for Proof Against Poison (27K, DMG). There's a soulmeld that grants immunity to poison: Necrocarnum Circlet bound to your throat chakra. Elder Spirit requires the dragonblood subtype, but it could be amusing... bound to your crown chakra, it grants you immunity to paralysis, so let them do what they want to your Dex score.

And then there's Necropolitan (Libris Mortis). You lose a level/HD and that massive Con score, but the undead type makes you immune to poison, ability damage, and nearly anything that involves a Fort save.

[darkdragoon]

Presuming they kept the SRD stats Cubes indeed have a whopping 1 Dex.

[SangoProduction]

If you haven't seen the OP's earlier posts, he's using a gelatinous cube monster class from Dreamscarred Press' April Augmented (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/179672/April-Augmented). GCube starts with a 26 Con, or a +16 Con modifier if you're rolling ability scores. After that, probably some template wankery, but some of the templates really gank your Dex score.

Immunity to poison is a thing. Periapt for Proof Against Poison (27K, DMG). There's a soulmeld that grants immunity to poison: Necrocarnum Circlet bound to your throat chakra. Elder Spirit requires the dragonblood subtype, but it could be amusing... bound to your crown chakra, it grants you immunity to paralysis, so let them do what they want to your Dex score.

And then there's Necropolitan (Libris Mortis). You lose a level/HD and that massive Con score, but the undead type makes you immune to poison, ability damage, and nearly anything that involves a Fort save.

I just put 18 in Con. 16 for the 3.5 game, because that one did roll for stats.
Is there any poison that really can threaten a decently leveled character, let alone one with 34 Con? Immunity to paralysis doesn't do much, as lacking dexterity doesn't apply the paralyzed condition but simply makes it so you can't move. Necropolitan also does invalidate much of the reason to play the Jelly.

[Rebel7284]

Necropolitan also does invalidate much of the reason to play the Jelly.

Undead jelly xD

Also:
Creatures with the cold subtype are immune to the effects of shivering touch.

If you can buy spellcasting services and someone has access to the Frostburn version of Mantle of the Icy Soul, you can use that.

[Jay R]

Even if you've found a way to get around having any uses for Dexterity, having a DEX of 1 is dangerous - as you've documented.

My long-term advice is to stop looking for ways to protect yourself from what appears to be poor character design, and design characters without huge weaknesses.

[SangoProduction]

Undead jelly xD

Also:

If you can buy spellcasting services and someone has access to the Frostburn version of Mantle of the Icy Soul, you can use that.

Oh that's interesting.


Even if you've found a way to get around having any uses for Dexterity, having a DEX of 1 is dangerous - as you've documented.

My long-term advice is to stop looking for ways to protect yourself from what appears to be poor character design, and design characters without huge weaknesses.

Huge weaknesses are just different challenges to overcome.

[Fouredged Sword]

Funny thing - As far as I can tell a zero dex score does nothing to you as an ooze.
To quote the SRD

A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed.


Ooze Type
Features
An ooze has the following features.
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning.


Never mind, pathfinder fixed that issue. This won't work unless you are playing 3.5

[Jay R]

Huge weaknesses are just different challenges to overcome.

Agreed. But a DEX of 1 represents the manual dexterity of a cube of gelatin. The character should not be able to wield a weapon, or dress himself, or walk consistently. This isn't an adventuring character; it's exploiting a hole in the rules.

[icefractal]

The character should not be able to wield a weapon, or dress himself, or walk consistently. .Well he's certainly not doing the last of those - cubes don't have legs. :smalltongue: Or arms, so probably not the former two either.

Also, while Dex 1 is low, it's within the range of an old human, or certain kinds of dwarf. I wouldn't assume it inherently means anything more than the -5 penalty it already gives.

On the OP - this would be a one-shot rescue, but Craft Contingent Spell: Cat's Grace? Stats don't go below zero, so this will bring it up to 4 - more graceful than usual, in fact.

[SangoProduction]

Well he's certainly not doing the last of those - cubes don't have legs. :smalltongue: Or arms, so probably not the former two either.

Also, while Dex 1 is low, it's within the range of an old human, or certain kinds of dwarf. I wouldn't assume it inherently means anything more than the -5 penalty it already gives.

On the OP - this would be a one-shot rescue, but Craft Contingent Spell: Cat's Grace? Stats don't go below zero, so this will bring it up to 4 - more graceful than usual, in fact.

ooooo. Now that's a cool idea. Soon as I get high enough level, I'll see if it will fly with the DMs.

[ExLibrisMortis]

ooooo. Now that's a cool idea. Soon as I get high enough level, I'll see if it will fly with the DMs.
Cat's grace provides the same bonus as gloves of dexterity. If the gloves only increase the amount of dexterity damage you can take, so will the spell.

The question is: How does your DM truncate dexterity damage?

If you have 1 dex and take 4 dex damage, do you write "4 dex damage" on your sheet, and are effectively at 0 dex because of a separate rule, or do you truncate to 1 dex damage, putting you at 0 dex without further rules?
If you have a +2 enhancement bonus to dexterity, do you apply that bonus in the order you desire (damage first, then bonus), or does the damage cancel out as much dex as possible?

If your DM doesn't truncate dex damage, and doesn't allow you to use the favourable order of application, the contingent spell won't work.
If your DM does truncate dex damage, and doesn't allow the favourable order of application, you can remove and re-equip the gloves to 'heal' ability damage, by forcing it to truncate. You'll still need a way to re-equip the gloves while paralyzed. I'm not sure you can choose which of a pair of magical gloves is active as a free action - if you can, that'd be practical.
If your DM allows you to use the favourable order of application, meaning the dex damage maxes out before the bonus comes into play, you don't need the contingent spell - the gloves alone will work fine.

[Zanos]

You may also need to worry about penalties to Dexterity like fatigued or exhausted.

There are spells that can inflict those conditions without any save.
Penalties explicitly can't drop scores below 1 as a general rule.

[SangoProduction]

Cat's grace provides the same bonus as gloves of dexterity. If the gloves only increase the amount of dexterity damage you can take, so will the spell.

The question is: How does your DM truncate dexterity damage?

If you have 1 dex and take 4 dex damage, do you write "4 dex damage" on your sheet, and are effectively at 0 dex because of a separate rule, or do you truncate to 1 dex damage, putting you at 0 dex without further rules?
If you have a +2 enhancement bonus to dexterity, do you apply that bonus in the order you desire (damage first, then bonus), or does the damage cancel out as much dex as possible?

If your DM doesn't truncate dex damage, and doesn't allow you to use the favourable order of application, the contingent spell won't work.
If your DM does truncate dex damage, and doesn't allow the favourable order of application, you can remove and re-equip the gloves to 'heal' ability damage, by forcing it to truncate. You'll still need a way to re-equip the gloves while paralyzed. I'm not sure you can choose which of a pair of magical gloves is active as a free action - if you can, that'd be practical.
If your DM allows you to use the favourable order of application, meaning the dex damage maxes out before the bonus comes into play, you don't need the contingent spell - the gloves alone will work fine.

That is why I'm going to see if it flies once it becomes an option. But, I will see if it's possible with Gloves of Dexterity. Got a game today, so it's a good opportunity lol.


Penalties explicitly can't drop scores below 1 as a general rule.

True. True. Hopefully the GM will see it that way, and not simply as something that many spells specifically mention.

[Nifft]

Penalties explicitly can't drop scores below 1 as a general rule.

I looked for that rule in the Rules Compendium, and all I saw was that some spells had that provision, but not Fatigue or Exhaustion.

Can you point me to the general rule?

[Zanos]

I looked for that rule in the Rules Compendium, and all I saw was that some spells had that provision, but not Fatigue or Exhaustion.

Can you point me to the general rule?
I'd have to check for 3.5, but in PF it's on the SRD under ability score penalties (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Ability-Score-Penalties).

[Nifft]

I'd have to check for 3.5, but in PF it's on the SRD under ability score penalties (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Ability-Score-Penalties).

Pathfinder having different rules from D&D would explain why we get different results.

[SirNibbles]

Penalties explicitly can't drop scores below 1 as a general rule.

Spells that bestow penalties will usually say 'Gives enemy N penalty to X ability, min 1.'

Statuses that cause ability penalties, like Exhausted or Entangled, have no mention of the penalty not being able to drop an enemy to 0.

EDIT: For 3.5 only. PF has it for all penalties, as someone else mentioned.