Could a level 19 character defeat this?

[Zhentarim]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/the-mantis-god

[Manyasone]

1 lvl 19 character?
Not a chance...

[Zhentarim]

1 lvl 19 character?
Not a chance...

What about a level 19 party?

[GilesTheCleric]

It has int 6 and only +20 will. That's a OHKO.

[Doctor Awkward]

It has int 6 and only +20 will. That's a OHKO.

From what? It's immune to ability damage.

To OP:
Define "defeat".

It's an outsider, so it can be banished. There's also Imprisonment and similar effects. A +20 Will save isn't that hard to overcome.

[Zhentarim]

It has int 6 and only +20 will. That's a OHKO.
I guess one would need to overcome that 42 sr, though

[Zhentarim]

From what? It's immune to ability damage.

To OP:
Define "defeat".

It's an outsider, so it can be banished. There's also Imprisonment and similar effects. A +20 Will save isn't that hard to overcome.

Kill it, and have it never come back

[Doctor Awkward]

Kill it, and have it never come back

Not without DM fiat. It explicitly says in the description that it only takes real damage from demigods or beings of greater status and specific legendary weapons.
There's no specific rule that allows a typical level 19 party to kill it.

[Jack_Simth]

Not without DM fiat. It explicitly says in the description that it only takes real damage from demigods or beings of greater status and specific legendary weapons.
There's no specific rule that allows a typical level 19 party to kill it.
There's ways to contain it until something else releases it (the trigger object version of Trap the Soul (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/trap-the-soul) comes to mind; with enough CL / DC boosting shenanigans, a bit of Shades (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shades) Spam to duplicate the spell might also work).

Killing it seems far-fetched without DM collusion (see clauses about how to deal lethal damage - none are normally accessible as a PC without DM fiat). However: the regeneration it has is listed as Su, and it doesn't appear to have any defenses against a standard Antimagic Field (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/antimagicField.html). So if you put an AMF on a nonmagical melee character (perhaps via Ring of Spell Storing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-spell-storing) or a scroll and UMD) that was sufficiently optimized otherwise, you could probably pull it off. You deal lethal damage when the beast has the regeneration turned off. May need to widen the AMF, use multiples, or similar.

[Zhentarim]

There's ways to contain it until something else releases it (the trigger object version of Trap the Soul (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/trap-the-soul) comes to mind; with enough CL / DC boosting shenanigans, a bit of Shades (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shades) Spam to duplicate the spell might also work).

Killing it seems far-fetched without DM collusion (see clauses about how to deal lethal damage - none are normally accessible as a PC without DM fiat). However: the regeneration it has is listed as Su, and it doesn't appear to have any defenses against a standard Antimagic Field (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/antimagicField.html). So if you put an AMF on a nonmagical melee character (perhaps via Ring of Spell Storing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-spell-storing) or a scroll and UMD) that was sufficiently optimized otherwise, you could probably pull it off. You deal lethal damage when the beast has the regeneration turned off. May need to widen the AMF, use multiples, or similar.

Dr/20 Epic...maybe a really powerful Orc Barbarian could hit that if they took an alchemist level?

[Buufreak]

DR 20/epic might as well be DR 20/- for this exercise. Anyone recall the current record shocktrooper damage is? I feel like it is well over the 805 hp this guy has, plus enough to ignore the DR.

[Prime32]

Borrow its own tactics. Use divination magic to find the location of a dead magic zone somewhere in deep space, then open a gate to this location and push the Mantis God through. It still needs to breathe.

[Jack_Simth]

DR 20/epic might as well be DR 20/- for this exercise.A +4 Bane weapon has a +6 Enhancement bonus when it strikes the appropriate sort of creature - which means you can make a non-epic weapon that will penetrate the Epic DR of certain creatures.

Also... the universal monster rules list DR as either Ex or Su, but I'm having trouble finding where it's defined which ones are which. It's possible that the DR may go away in an AMF as well.

[Buufreak]

A +4 Bane weapon has a +6 Enhancement bonus when it strikes the appropriate sort of creature - which means you can make a non-epic weapon that will penetrate the Epic DR of certain creatures.

Also... the universal monster rules list DR as either Ex or Su, but I'm having trouble finding where it's defined which ones are which. It's possible that the DR may go away in an AMF as well.

See? There is always a way around just about anything in this game.

I checked http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm and didn't see which epic qualifies as, but I feel like it's Su, as Ex is defined as strictly nonmagical.

[Barstro]

Some optimized ranged Inquisitors might be able to take it down, but I don't know how they will stay alive long enough to do so.

[Jack_Simth]

See? There is always a way around just about anything in this game.

I checked http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm and didn't see which epic qualifies as, but I feel like it's Su, as Ex is defined as strictly nonmagical.

Also of note is that this particular monster is Pathfinder-specific. Hmm... that's interesting... the Special Abilities Entry for Damage Reduction (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Damage-Reduction) pretty strongly implies it's all Su, while the Universal Monster Rules for same (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Damage-Reduction-Ex-or-Su-) say it can be either, but gives no method to distinguish which is which. In the case of the Specific Beast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/the-mantis-god), it's not called out either way... does that mean we have a general rule that says DR is Supernatural unless otherwise specified, and the specific beast isn't specifying otherwise?

[Demidos]

Forgive my pathfinder ignorance, but below I have enclosed a few ideas that could perhaps help if fleshed out, from my 3.5 knowledge--

It is NOT immune to drowning. Therefore, if you first knocked it unconscious via massive damage (the Mailman sorcerer build comes to mind, using metamagic'ed orbs of force), you should be then able to keep it permanently effectively dead.

Rough outline of plan --
Round 1: Contingent Time Stop when it breathes in, true strike or limited wish if you're feeling generous, toss an open decanter of endless water set to geyser inside the creature.
Rounds 2-4: Repeated twinned maximized extended vortex of teeth can be added here as often as desired. Assay spell resistance or a similar spell can be cast too, but as a 18th level sorcerer with a marshal dip, you should have at the very least +30 or so on your check vs SR, so that shouldn't be an issue. Twinned repeated true strike. If you find yourself with fewer than expected rounds, you can cast your spells through arcane spell surge or arcane fusion to save time. Alternately ready an action to cast time stop when your time stop ends. Ready an action to cast desired orb spell of choice, probably orb of force.

Time stop ends. Bad guy is hit with ~96 damage per casting of vortex of teeth, of which there will be...many. He is also hit by your twinned repeated yadda yadda. Point being, he takes mucho damage and is unconscious for the rounds your vortex of teeth is active, which should be ~40. 40 rounds of time that the decanter of endless water is pumping 30 gallons per round into it.

1200 gallons of salt water in it's lungs will probably keep it down permanently, although it will not kill it.




Alternately, limited wish (my next attack roll will autosucceed). Contingent spell to cast Amber sarcophagus on BBEG. He is trapped forever in an amber sphere.

[GrayDeath]

Depends on your definition of "defeat".

A averagely maxxed Sociomancer could simply intimidate it to go away and leave him/her alone. ^^
Heck, with an unrolled Intimidate Value of around 40 even my level 9 Warlock Intimidator could do it...he did it with a Pit Fiend once ^^


Also on general note a will save of 20 is nothing to sing home about, even if its immune to mind affecting effects.

[Zhentarim]

Forgive my pathfinder ignorance, but below I have enclosed a few ideas that could perhaps help if fleshed out, from my 3.5 knowledge--

It is NOT immune to drowning. Therefore, if you first knocked it unconscious via massive damage (the Mailman sorcerer build comes to mind, using metamagic'ed orbs of force), you should be then able to keep it permanently effectively dead.

Rough outline of plan --
Round 1: Contingent Time Stop when it breathes in, true strike or limited wish if you're feeling generous, toss an open decanter of endless water set to geyser inside the creature.
Rounds 2-4: Repeated twinned maximized extended vortex of teeth can be added here as often as desired. Assay spell resistance or a similar spell can be cast too, but as a 18th level sorcerer with a marshal dip, you should have at the very least +30 or so on your check vs SR, so that shouldn't be an issue. Twinned repeated true strike. If you find yourself with fewer than expected rounds, you can cast your spells through arcane spell surge or arcane fusion to save time. Alternately ready an action to cast time stop when your time stop ends. Ready an action to cast desired orb spell of choice, probably orb of force.

Time stop ends. Bad guy is hit with ~96 damage per casting of vortex of teeth, of which there will be...many. He is also hit by your twinned repeated yadda yadda. Point being, he takes mucho damage and is unconscious for the rounds your vortex of teeth is active, which should be ~40. 40 rounds of time that the decanter of endless water is pumping 30 gallons per round into it.

1200 gallons of salt water in it's lungs will probably keep it down permanently, although it will not kill it.




Alternately, limited wish (my next attack roll will autosucceed). Contingent spell to cast Amber sarcophagus on BBEG. He is trapped forever in an amber sphere.

That was a creative solution! Why wouldn't drowning kill it?

[Coretron03]

That was a creative solution! Why wouldn't drowning kill it?

Because drowning is kind of messed up, some people say once tou start drowning tou cannot ever stop, others say tou can heal by drowning and a couple others argue you die by the 3rd round (note, taking about 3.5, have not checked pathfinder drowning rules)

[Slithery D]

Also of note is that this particular monster is Pathfinder-specific. Hmm... that's interesting... the Special Abilities Entry for Damage Reduction (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Damage-Reduction) pretty strongly implies it's all Su, while the Universal Monster Rules for same (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Damage-Reduction-Ex-or-Su-) say it can be either, but gives no method to distinguish which is which. In the case of the Specific Beast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/the-mantis-god), it's not called out either way... does that mean we have a general rule that says DR is Supernatural unless otherwise specified, and the specific beast isn't specifying otherwise?

This was actually published by Paizo before they introduced the Pathfinder rules system, so it's built with 3.5 rules, not Pathfinder.

[Calthropstu]

A +4 Bane weapon has a +6 Enhancement bonus when it strikes the appropriate sort of creature - which means you can make a non-epic weapon that will penetrate the Epic DR of certain creatures.

Also... the universal monster rules list DR as either Ex or Su, but I'm having trouble finding where it's defined which ones are which. It's possible that the DR may go away in an AMF as well.

Any weapon with a total of +6 or better, including special abilities, counts as epic for the the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. A +5 flaming wepon, for example, will overcome that dr, as would a +4 flaming burst.

There are no special rules for making such weapons in pathfinder.

[Zhentarim]

Any weapon with a total of +6 or better, including special abilities, counts as epic for the the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. A +5 flaming wepon, for example, will overcome that dr, as would a +4 flaming burst.

There are no special rules for making such weapons in pathfinder.

I'll need to keep that in mind

[Jack_Simth]

Any weapon with a total of +6 or better, including special abilities, counts as epic for the the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. A +5 flaming wepon, for example, will overcome that dr, as would a +4 flaming burst.

There are no special rules for making such weapons in pathfinder.

Are you sure? I thought it was looking at the enhancement bonus... if the critter is using 3.5 rules, then This Section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction) should apply, and it includes:
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.(emphasis added)

A +4 Bane (Outsider[Evil]) weapon has a +6 Enhancement bonus when striking an Evil Outsider, so that's Epic. Where do you find the bit that the total must be +6, rather than the Enhancement?

[Zhentarim]

Are you sure? I thought it was looking at the enhancement bonus... if the critter is using 3.5 rules, then This Section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction) should apply, and it includes: (emphasis added)

A +4 Bane (Outsider[Evil]) weapon has a +6 Enhancement bonus when striking an Evil Outsider, so that's Epic. Where do you find the bit that the total must be +6, rather than the Enhancement?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic#TOC-DR-Epic

[Jack_Simth]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic#TOC-DR-Epic
Good find! Makes it MUCH easier to take the beast down. That's significantly relaxed from 3.5.

[Anlashok]

Deities are immune to AMF in Pathfinder, so that strategy won't work.

[Coidzor]

Deities are immune to AMF in Pathfinder, so that strategy won't work.

Dead magic on the table still?

[Beneath]

It's specifically called out in its description as not being a true deity, so AMF should work on it.

[Jack_Simth]

Deities are immune to AMF in Pathfinder, so that strategy won't work.

Ah, but as Beneath said, it's not actually a deity! It's just called that:
The Mantis God is known to only a very few by its name—most know of this legendary assassin by its more common (although somewhat misleading) name of He Who Walks in Blood, or the Mantis God. Yet the Mantis God is not a true god, but rather one of the first creatures given life by the gods. Even early on, long before mortal life came to dominate the Material Plane, some of the gods realized they would need an agent to carry out their divine justice, an agent they could send without compromising their own standing among the divine or dirtying their hands tending to immortals and demigods who could someday, if left alive, rise in power to a point to challenge them. The Mantis God was created to be an assassin, a creature the gods could use against nascent enemies. Yet the gods did not wish to create a creature capable of being used against them, and thus created the Mantis God with the fundamental inability to act against the gods themselves—it can only slay those of demigod status or lower.(emphasis added)

[Manyasone]

Actually, that is old data, you know. Inner sea Faiths has the following to say

Achaekek -HE WHO WALKS IN BLOOD- God of assassins, divine punishment, and the Red Mantis
Those stats would be an Aspect of him, since he is a Lesser Deity now. Far beyond the scope of ordinary PC's.
Off course you could slay his aspect, but I'm thinking you're in for a world of hurt afterwards

[SirNibbles]

I've never played Pathfinder, but, based on what I've read, Bestow Curse (Greater) should be able to significantly hamper this enemy. It bypasses all its resistances (except Spell Resistance and its weak Will save). From there, you can repeatedly use it to cripple the creature to a point where it's just a matter of chipping away at a punching bag.

As long as PF has ways to boost SR breaking and cast touch spells as rays like 3.5 does, you should be able to beat it solo.

[Slithery D]

Again, this statblock is a 3.5 one, created before the Pathfinder RPG rules were published.

[Jack_Simth]

Again, this statblock is a 3.5 one, created before the Pathfinder RPG rules were published.

Odd... it uses Perception rather than Spot/Listen, and the Pathfinder poison rules rather than the 3.5 ones... definitely the stronger 3.5 regeneration, though. Looks like 3.5 was discontinued about 2007, this was published in 2008, and Paizo published the Pathfinder core book in 2009.

So... looks more like a Pathfinder Playtest prior to official publication, really, which also explains the mix.

Actually, that is old data, you know.
The question, however, was a specific link, so we might as well abide by what the posted statblock says, as that's the one in question.

[Zhentarim]

I've never played Pathfinder, but, based on what I've read, Bestow Curse (Greater) should be able to significantly hamper this enemy. It bypasses all its resistances (except Spell Resistance and its weak Will save). From there, you can repeatedly use it to cripple the creature to a point where it's just a matter of chipping away at a punching bag.

As long as PF has ways to boost SR breaking and cast touch spells as rays like 3.5 does, you should be able to beat it solo.

bypasses ability drain?

[Klara Meison]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/the-mantis-god

Lemme take your breath away (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pbrv&page=2?Beastmass-A-challenge-to-Master-MinMaxers#72) strategy

Pun-pun 2:The punpaning (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pbrv&page=11?Beastmass-A-challenge-to-Master-MinMaxers#506) strategy

Just the two I remembered off the top of my head. lv 20 but it doesn't really change much.

[Calthropstu]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic#TOC-DR-Epic

Yes, this was the rule I was referring to.

This is one of many differences between pathfinder and 3.5 And this Mantis God is a Pathfinder monster I believe.

[Calthropstu]

Again, this statblock is a 3.5 one, created before the Pathfinder RPG rules were published.

Looks more hybrid actually. There are no rules for gods and demigods in Pathfinder, but it definitely uses various pathfinder terminology, and is located in the pfsrd, not the srd.

I am noticing people claiming 2008, which was after wotc stopped all 3.5 material.

So definitely thinking early PF playtest era material.

[Mr Adventurer]

It wouldn't be in the SRD of course, it's not WotC...

[SirNibbles]

bypasses ability drain?

There are three types of negatives to abilities:

Ability Damage
Ability Drain
Ability Penalty/Reduction

Ability Damage is damage to an ability. It recovers at a rate of 1 point per day.

Ability Drain is ability damage, but permanent.

Ability Penalty is a reduction to an ability that ends as soon as the effect causing it expires. Usually, a penalty cannot reduce an ability below 1.

Penalty is specifically noted as being a separate category from Damage and Drain, and so Immunity to Damage/Drain does not protect against it.

[Doctor Awkward]

However: the regeneration it has is listed as Su, and it doesn't appear to have any defenses against a standard Antimagic Field (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/antimagicField.html). So if you put an AMF on a nonmagical melee character (perhaps via Ring of Spell Storing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-spell-storing) or a scroll and UMD) that was sufficiently optimized otherwise, you could probably pull it off. You deal lethal damage when the beast has the regeneration turned off. May need to widen the AMF, use multiples, or similar.

1. Anti-Magic Field only functions on a creature if it is completely contained within the field. The Mantis God is colossal, taking up a 20 ft. space. You would be required to Widen it, as two fields sharing the same space have no effect on each other. A Widened Cleric AMF is an 11th level spell. A Widened Sorc/Wiz AMF is 9th. Just pointing out this tactic requires a party wizard.

2. An AMF forced onto a creature must overcome that creatures SR, which is 42. You cannot also prepare it as both a Widen and Piercing Spell, since that would take it up to 10th, so you'd have to have a Greater Metamagic Rod. With that, plus Greater Spell Penetration, plus Robes of the Archmagi, the caster will still need a 12 or higher in order to succeed (though I suppose there are probably other SR boosters out there, that was just off the top of my head).

3. This requires the hapless AMF subject (or subjects) to get adjacent to the Mantis God, who has 20 ft reach, a hilariously overwhelming CMD of 86, Combat Reflexes, and a Dex of 36 (14 total attacks of opportunity per round, which can be made while flat-footed). Furthermore, with Bull Rush Strike, it can automatically push the target away on a critical hit (it threatens on a 15-20). And even if they succeed on moving in, they have a single round to deal 815 damage before it takes a 5 foot step to stick it's leg out of the AMF.


I'm just saying I don't want to be in the party that's supposed to fight against this.

[weckar]

Wouldn't a supernatural death effect clear this guy 1 2 3?

[Doctor Awkward]

Wouldn't a supernatural death effect clear this guy 1 2 3?

Check Defensive abilities again.

Immune to death effects.

[weckar]

Right, I honestly missed that unlinked bit in the sea of blue links.

The CR 30 actually seems well-earned for this one.

Hmmm, in Pathfinder death by nonlethal damage is a thing right? He doesn't seem immune to that at all...

[icefractal]

Touch AC is low. I think that dealing a large amount of damage via touch attacks would work (guns being the simplest option there, as Clustered Shots will deal with the DR).

Since it's not immune to crits / sneak attack either and can't see through smoke, a Gunslinger/Ninja using Sap Master would be one way to go. Or several simulacra of such, if you're a Wizard. Or Telekinesis with the right payload, for that matter.

Technically you might not be able to kill it, but once it's unconscious you can keep it that way. Then you bring something to tank its Will save, an Ember Weaver to strip away that mind-affecting immunity, and get a new bad-ass minion.

[Zhentarim]

Touch AC is low. I think that dealing a large amount of damage via touch attacks would work (guns being the simplest option there, as Clustered Shots will deal with the DR).

Since it's not immune to crits / sneak attack either and can't see through smoke, a Gunslinger/Ninja using Sap Master would be one way to go. Or several simulacra of such, if you're a Wizard. Or Telekinesis with the right payload, for that matter.

Technically you might not be able to kill it, but once it's unconscious you can keep it that way. Then you bring something to tank its Will save, an Ember Weaver to strip away that mind-affecting immunity, and get a new bad-ass minion.

Demigod minion

[Klara Meison]

Wizard VMC mesmerist + dominate monster/feeblemind would work, since mesmerists have an ability that removes mind magic immunity.

[Jack_Simth]

1. Anti-Magic Field only functions on a creature if it is completely contained within the field. The Mantis God is colossal, taking up a 20 ft. space. You would be required to Widen it, as two fields sharing the same space have no effect on each other. A Widened Cleric AMF is an 11th level spell. A Widened Sorc/Wiz AMF is 9th. Just pointing out this tactic requires a party wizard.

Not necessarily a party wizard. If you're putting it in a ring of spell storing, it can also be a hired spell done during down time. A party wizard is the simplest way to get it, though.


2. An AMF forced onto a creature must overcome that creatures SR, which is 42. You cannot also prepare it as both a Widen and Piercing Spell, since that would take it up to 10th, so you'd have to have a Greater Metamagic Rod. With that, plus Greater Spell Penetration, plus Robes of the Archmagi, the caster will still need a 12 or higher in order to succeed (though I suppose there are probably other SR boosters out there, that was just off the top of my head).
... I'm seeing the SR clause for summoned creatures, but I'm not seeing it for others. Do you mind quoting the block and underlining the relevant bits? Wouldn't be the first time I've been blind.

3. This requires the hapless AMF subject (or subjects) to get adjacent to the Mantis God, who has 20 ft reach, a hilariously overwhelming CMD of 86, Combat Reflexes, and a Dex of 36 (14 total attacks of opportunity per round, which can be made while flat-footed). Furthermore, with Bull Rush Strike, it can automatically push the target away on a critical hit (it threatens on a 15-20). And even if they succeed on moving in, they have a single round to deal 815 damage before it takes a 5 foot step to stick it's leg out of the AMF.Keep in mind: I didn't say it was likely that it'd work. Point of fact, I even called it "Far-fetched". It is, however, within range of possible.


Wizard VMC mesmerist + dominate monster/feeblemind would work, since mesmerists have an ability that removes mind magic immunity.Warning: Nothing makes the beast immune to the dispel magic effect of it's own Unwavering Aura. You may not have the beast under control for very long (DC 32 vs. it's own will save of +20)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Fill a demiplane to the brim with quintessence. Ready an action to cast gate to said demiplane right as the mantis god is stepping forward. Laugh as it finds itself removed permanently from the timestream.

[Quertus]

Obviously, the answer to the question is yes. In fact, there are many ways.

It's easy to deal enough damage to KO it. Although parties - let alone individuals - that know nothing about it and aren't expecting it could certainly have trouble dealing with it.

[Zhentarim]

The question now, is what is the lowest level that could defeat this?

[Eldariel]

One easy way to kill it is to use Magic Jar. It targets the weak save, doesn't care about any of its immunities (conveniently it's not protected as per Protection from Alignment) and gives you a sweet new body to rock. SR42 is annoying but you can stack up enough stuff to make it by 20 at the very latest (+4 Beads of Karma, +1 Ioun Stone, +1 class, +2 Elf, +4 Greater Spell Penetration already gives you 55/45 chance - and that's just Core-stuff since I don't remember PF-stuff well enough to use most of it).

You'll have to dispose of the original soul and then do some tricks to keep the body, but killing it through the spell is easy enough. Just increase the distance between the container and the body and boom. If you want to keep the body, you'll need to use two Magic Jars, move the first Jar far enough from the Mantis to break the spell range, go to the second Magic Jar (the spell only kills you if you're in the Magic Jar when the spell ends, so in another Jar you'll be fine), end the first spell through whatever means (generally a Simulacrum or such is fine for this task), return to the body from the second Jar and go about your business.

[Doctor Awkward]

... I'm seeing the SR clause for summoned creatures, but I'm not seeing it for others. Do you mind quoting the block and underlining the relevant bits? Wouldn't be the first time I've been blind.

Whoops, my bad. That bit is only for summoned creatures to prevent them from winking out on contact.


Wizard VMC mesmerist + dominate monster/feeblemind would work, since mesmerists have an ability that removes mind magic immunity.

A mesmerist hypnotic stare gives the creature with immunity to mind-affecting a 50% chance of behaving normally every round. Further, if you do dominate it but ever order it to act against its nature (which is DM fiat), he gets a new save.


Obviously, the answer to the question is yes. In fact, there are many ways.

It's easy to deal enough damage to KO it. Although parties - let alone individuals - that know nothing about it and aren't expecting it could certainly have trouble dealing with it.

This is probably the best answer that this thread will generate. Theoretically, in a vacuum, a sufficiently prepared and researched level 19 party could probably kill it.

Practically? In an actual game? No. Without DM intervention, they will not succeed.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

In a 3.P game, if you're from the Outlands, the planar bubble spell can make even greater gods magically helpless. Just emulate the area near the Spire and hold them so they can't leave. Or hit them with enough damage via ubercharger.

[Eldariel]

This is probably the best answer that this thread will generate. Theoretically, in a vacuum, a sufficiently prepared and researched level 19 party could probably kill it.

Practically? In an actual game? No. Without DM intervention, they will not succeed.

Na, I don't think that's the whole truth. However, it would be very tricky to defeat immediately. Note, however, that it's not that big of a threat. It has no real counter to Teleports. While it has the Gate-ability, it has no real way to locate any people outside the range of its senses and if someone Teleports 500 miles away, they're outta there. It also has no counters to being Teleported back on, being subjected to Time Stop bull**** or anything of the sort; the Unweaving Aura does little. It would follow the usual pattern: Encounter this thing, go "what the **** is that", roll your Knowledges, determine if you know enough to kill it, try some stuff if you think it might go down and Teleport away for proper preparation if that fails. Then use your divinations to find out how to defeat it, prepare your spell suite and go from there. Or Gate in something ridiculous enough to beat it, either-or.

Gate is just a 9th level spell that both, Wizards and Clerics have access to after all, and it can get a 40HD Outsider with no CL boosts (but this game has a lot of CL boosts so the true limits are much higher). Short duration is plenty. If you call a 40 HD thing it's uncontrolled but if you get something violent enough, the two might duke it out anyways (Mantis God's description states it fights to the death even though it has Regeneration and Move Action Gate to get out; I posit that's bull**** and the thing is intelligent enough to escape to lick its wounds if it gets overwhelmed).

Overall, while the Mantis God looks impressive, it's frankly just another big bruiser with some more immunities. It's not as helpless as the Tarrasque but it's still not a spellcaster. Thus, while it's hard to kill, its threat level is pretty low unless it gets some kind of a universal omniscience (and it's dumb as bricks with no divinations or anything of the sort, so that seems unlikely). It is, however, a great choice for a body to take over or a dumb brute to Gate. If only its maneuverability were Good instead of Average and it weren't so damn big... You have to constantly use shapechanging magic if you get that body since you can't fit anywhere without breaking the place.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If only [...] it weren't so damn big... You have to constantly use shapechanging magic if you get that body since you can't fit anywhere without breaking the place.Again, in a 3.P game, the shrink collar from the Arms & Equipment Guide would solve this problem handily.

[Eldariel]

Again, in a 3.P game, the shrink collar from the Arms & Equipment Guide would solve this problem handily.

Yeah, there are certainly ways but it's still something one has to mind. In PF-only, a simple Polymorph Any Object will do nicely; it's easy enough to pick a smaller form with permanent duration, and since it's PF, you don't lose your stats but actually get additional bonuses from the Polymorph-spell.

[gooddragon1]

Yeah, there are certainly ways but it's still something one has to mind. In PF-only, a simple Polymorph Any Object will do nicely; it's easy enough to pick a smaller form with permanent duration, and since it's PF, you don't lose your stats but actually get additional bonuses from the Polymorph-spell.

Speaking of which, if you polymorph it into something else won't it lose regen? Then you could kill it?

[Eldariel]

Speaking of which, if you polymorph it into something else won't it lose regen? Then you could kill it?

Sure, PAO is one of the millions of ways you can kill it. Polymorph-stuff is moved into description (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation) but it still involves losing all form-dependent supernaturals like regeneration. But making it fail a Fort-save is generally way too much effort when you have much, much easier options available in its pitiful Will-save. You could always just make it a toad or something and leave it as such; it's possible to bruteforce it to fail a save on 1. The easiest is most likely to just wreck its Will and then finish it off; if you dominate it and order it to fail the save against PAO or something, that would work fine.

[javcs]

An alternative path to permanent control in a 3.P game is use of the Necrotic Cyst spells from Libris Mortis. Admittedly, Necrotic Cyst has to deal with SR and the Fort save, but if you get a Dominate on it, you can order it to drop SR and fail the save, or just spam Necrotic Cyst at it until you successfully land one, since Necrotic Cyst is only a level 2 spell - you will want use Spectral Hand, though. Then you use Necrotic Tumor, ordering it to fail the save, or not, since you can keep trying with Tumor until you successfully get permanent (Ex) control and loyalty from it.
It's not immune to [Necromancy] or [Evil] spells.


Or use enough Caster Level increasing tricks to get to CL 45 or better and drop a Holy Word on it. The Holy Word autokill isn't a death effect and doesn't allow a save, thus bypassing immunities and its regeneration.



There are enough ways to deal with it that if you know what you're facing and have both time and sufficient resources to prepare, then it's doable, if not particularly easy. If you don't know it's coming and aren't prepared for it, the best you can do is probably knock it out and keep it knocked out, or escape it, since it doesn't actually have any abilities to allow it to easily track someone down or follow a Teleport effect escape.

[Quertus]

The question now, is what is the lowest level that could defeat this?

Level 1.

Elf wizard 1, with centuries of festering anger (because cats killed his twin), hits the thing for NI damage, then throws it into the ocean / outer space / the sun.