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Grey Watcher
2016-11-13, 03:18 PM
OK, so trying to make a career change: I've been a musician, I'm currently an administrative assistant. I have a very passing acquaintance with coding and UI design. I basically know nothing.

Thing is, I want to learn to make video games. I know there are myriad disciplines within that: programming, level design, UI design, character design, etc.

So, what I want some help with is this: if I go back to school for a second bachelor's degree, what sorts of programs should I look for? I know some (usually for-profit) schools have programs that are explicitly about "video game design". But assuming a given college or university I'm looking at doesn't have an "video game design and development" program, what should I be looking for?

If it helps any, I probably want to be less on the visual end of things: so more programming or level design end of things. Though learning to build and use 3D models does have its appeal as well, and might be more readily marketable in some other field.

Just generally, any thoughts or suggestions people have about any of this, or even just some Socratic Q&A to better define what I'm looking for would all be helpful.

Thanks in advance.

Razade
2016-11-13, 03:24 PM
It depends. When you say "I want to make video games" what do you mean by that? Do you mean you want to write the code? Do the art? Do you want to work for a Triple A studio, people who make Dragon Age and Bioshock, or do you want to go it alone or with some friends and make an Indie game like Binding of Isaac. What exactly do you want to do in the "Make a Video Game" process. You already know music, you (I assume) can do your own Foley work. That alone could get you some hands on work with actual small studios if you market yourself.

You need to provide more information really.

Grey Watcher
2016-11-13, 05:51 PM
It depends. When you say "I want to make video games" what do you mean by that? Do you mean you want to write the code? Do the art? Do you want to work for a Triple A studio, people who make Dragon Age and Bioshock, or do you want to go it alone or with some friends and make an Indie game like Binding of Isaac. What exactly do you want to do in the "Make a Video Game" process. You already know music, you (I assume) can do your own Foley work. That alone could get you some hands on work with actual small studios if you market yourself.

You need to provide more information really.

On the Big Studio vs. Indie route: Probably go for the big studio, even though I'm old enough (34) that they'll probably just write me off anyway (tech in general and video games in particular have a bad reputation for ageism). Thing is, in order to pull of an Isaac or something, you need to have a pretty specific idea in mind. I don't. I'm generally better at helping to bring an existing idea to fruition (as a musician I was a classical and operatic singer, so I wasn't writing my own material). Plus, I dunno, I'm middle-aged enough that I value the stability a larger firm would grant.

As for what to do in the process... *probably* programming. Or level design or similar. But I do want to explore some of the 3D modeling and graphics as well. But, I think initially focus on the programming part and branch out from there later if I'm so inclined. So let's say programming.

I realize I'm not being terribly helpful with these answers, but I do want to learn, I just don't know exactly where to start.

Haruki-kun
2016-11-13, 07:44 PM
Check the art department to see if they have a digital art program, it might be where all the video game designers opted to go. Similarly, check the computer science department, they might have people who are majoring in CS with a focus on game design or a minor in game design.

Razade
2016-11-14, 03:31 PM
On the Big Studio vs. Indie route: Probably go for the big studio, even though I'm old enough (34) that they'll probably just write me off anyway (tech in general and video games in particular have a bad reputation for ageism). Thing is, in order to pull of an Isaac or something, you need to have a pretty specific idea in mind. I don't. I'm generally better at helping to bring an existing idea to fruition (as a musician I was a classical and operatic singer, so I wasn't writing my own material). Plus, I dunno, I'm middle-aged enough that I value the stability a larger firm would grant.

As for what to do in the process... *probably* programming. Or level design or similar. But I do want to explore some of the 3D modeling and graphics as well. But, I think initially focus on the programming part and branch out from there later if I'm so inclined. So let's say programming.

I realize I'm not being terribly helpful with these answers, but I do want to learn, I just don't know exactly where to start.

"Level design" isn't a degree firstly, it's just something you learn to do over the course of making games and such. I'm sure there are probably classes that help. Programming, 3D Rendering/Animation and a number of art degrees is what you're looking for.

You can teach yourself programming. Gamemaker, Unity, Java are all good things to look at. Most games aren't made with C+ or C++ nowadays.

You're not likely going to get much from a big company. Not because of your age but because of inexperience and they're very competitive.

Flickerdart
2016-11-14, 04:41 PM
There are two answers here.

If you want to be an artist, sound designer, programmer, whatever - go take an online course or boot camp in that discipline. Don't take a second bachelor's degree.

But those are not actually game design roles. Because game design isn't drawing what the gun for Call of Duty 99 should look like. It's creating the mechanics that govern how the game is played, at a very meta level. And that requires a certain kind of thinking that you won't learn as a programmer or 3D modeller or what-have-you-er. It requires systems thinking. If you can't find a program that deals with it directly, seek out things that are called "user experience design" or "design thinking." Good-quality education in these areas deals very closely with systems thinking - how to identify an existing system and its flaws, create a new system to meet a specific goal, and so on.

People who understand systems thinking don't ask questions like "how do I make Mario jump when you press X?" They ask questions like "What is fun?" And yes, there is an answer to that question that isn't "it's different for everyone lol." There are many academic papers on the topic, as well as other papers on adjacent topics. This kind of thinking is how games like Portal happen, and how consoles like the Wii happen. This is not a "games as art" vector because those games tend to not care about fun at all. By the time you're deciding if you want to make your game 8-bit style, the systems thinking part ended.

Of course, systems thinking is not a sufficient skill to be a game designer, because it's hard to impress its value upon people that don't understand it. So you need to pick up an adjacent skill. But business is a skill. In a team of three dorks, a team of code dork, art dork, and business dork is a much more efficient distribution of dorks than two code dorks or two art dorks. This is because the business dork can do useful but not-sexy things like project management. It's really useful to have someone like that, even in a small team, because artists and devs are notoriously bad at setting realistic goals.

It sounds like you have a decent range of skills, which will make it easier for you to work with experts in those fields. But don't be afraid of developing your own depth based on the work experience you already have.

Neftren
2016-11-14, 06:26 PM
So, what I want some help with is this: if I go back to school for a second bachelor's degree, what sorts of programs should I look for? I know some (usually for-profit) schools have programs that are explicitly about "video game design". But assuming a given college or university I'm looking at doesn't have an "video game design and development" program, what should I be looking for?

Unless the two schools you are considering are named "UCLA" or "DigiPen" (or maybe a few others ...) I would advise you to ignore game development programs. Instead, figure out what discipline you want to pursue, whether it be concept art, game design, audio, programming, quality assurance, production, etc. For what it's worth, having a relevant degree really only helps with two of the above roles. As an example, if you really want to be a video game artist, start drawing (or modeling/animating). Throw something up on ArtStation or DeviantArt. Nearly every artist I've worked with has regretted going to art school (largely a waste of time) but if art school is a means of providing structure to force you to sit and draw, then by all means go for it.


On the Big Studio vs. Indie route: Probably go for the big studio, even though I'm old enough (34) that they'll probably just write me off anyway (tech in general and video games in particular have a bad reputation for ageism). Thing is, in order to pull of an Isaac or something, you need to have a pretty specific idea in mind. I don't. I'm generally better at helping to bring an existing idea to fruition (as a musician I was a classical and operatic singer, so I wasn't writing my own material). Plus, I dunno, I'm middle-aged enough that I value the stability a larger firm would grant.

Surprisingly, video games actually has a reverse ageism problem. The problem with entering the games industry is that most jobs have a <shipped X titles> or <N years of industry experience> requirement. "Entry-level" is virtually nonexistent outside of companies that have setup explicit programs for it (e.g. Blizzard or Epic). You may be surprised to discover that many game developers fall in the 30+ with kids bracket, mainly because of the hostile barrier to entry. From what you've described so far, I suspect you would rather enjoy being a producer.


As for what to do in the process... *probably* programming. Or level design or similar. But I do want to explore some of the 3D modeling and graphics as well. But, I think initially focus on the programming part and branch out from there later if I'm so inclined. So let's say programming.

Depending on the size and composition of studio, programming basically has nothing to do with level design, modeling, or graphics (unless you are explicitly a tools programmer, a technical artist, or a graphics programmer respectively). In the particular case of game programming, you have to really love game programming to go into game programming -- this response is getting a bit long already, so I'll skip over this part, but just ... be forewarned. It's a radically different beast compared to other programming jobs.


Check the art department to see if they have a digital art program, it might be where all the video game designers opted to go. Similarly, check the computer science department, they might have people who are majoring in CS with a focus on game design or a minor in game design.

This is nominally good advice, especially if you're interested in going indie. I'll also add that most game designers I know started in QA and worked their way up after roughly five to seven years in the trenches. The art and CS departments are a good place to find people who have the inclination to go indie, and are less elitist (for lack of a better term) about the people they want to work with. If you have a few (shipped) indie titles under your belt, it becomes easier to make the jump to professional (AA or AAA level work).


Most games aren't made with C+ or C++ nowadays.

You're not likely going to get much from a big company. Not because of your age but because of inexperience and they're very competitive.

Practically every PC/console game is (still) made with C/C++ these days, sometimes coupled with a scripting layer on top (Lua, Blueprints, Flowgraph, etc.). It's just not immediately obvious that this is the case.

Big companies have a deep focus on specialization. This isn't to say you aren't going to get much. It just changes what you get out of it. For instance, if your goal is to gain a deep understanding of <Insert Advanced Graphics Technique Here> using <Advanced Rendering Technology> ... that's not something you're likely to get at an indie shop.



In closing, the first question you need to answer before anything else: "do you want to make games for money?"

There are many ways into the games industry. If you want the freedom to make indie games as art, that's great. Just understand you are unlikely to make millions doing so. On the other hand, you might have a lot of fun working in a large studio where you get paid slightly more money at the cost of relinquishing creative control. Sometimes you get lucky and end up with the best of both worlds, or you might not. It helps to know where on the scale you fall though. :smallsmile:

Destro_Yersul
2016-11-16, 07:03 PM
Go watch a youtube series called Extra Credits. They did a few videos a while back on different aspects of game design and how to get into it.

thedanster7000
2016-11-23, 12:37 PM
Go watch a youtube series called Extra Credits. They did a few videos a while back on different aspects of game design and how to get into it.
Seconding; Extra Credits are excellent.

On the programming side of things, I'd start by learning a simple high-level language like Python, Small Basic, or Javascript. Then move onto either more powerful languages (Java, various types of C) or a specific piece of game design software (like Gamemaker or Unity). I've personally found that Unity (https://unity3d.com/) is very good (and free! Well, the basic version), and that's usable with C# and a modified version of Javascript.

If you want to do the modelling stuff, Blender (https://www.blender.org/) is a good (and free) start (I say start, it's used in released products by a lot of professionals).

If you're looking to do 2D stuff, there are lots of easy-to-use free software packages to do that with (although Unity does support 2D too, because it's great :smalltongue:) and it should be very easy to find software to make pixel art with.