Beginner question about alter self and polymorph

[Zhepna]

Hi,

I'm a beginner, playing 3.5 edition and I would like to have your opinions on those 2 spells. I just leveled lvl 4 and wonder if I should take alter self now and polymorph later. From what I read online, it went from broken to a better self disguise and now is only good to give ac in combat.

I'm a fire elf and not an abberations. I found a web page given a few differents pages but I can't link it since I'm too new on this forum.

Are they worth taking? How to use it now if it have been nerfed?

Thanks a lot for the information and have a nice day.

[ExLibrisMortis]

In 3.5, alter self and polymorph are very, very good. Take them as soon as you can, and don't look back. In the same series, there's also draconic polymorph, polymorph any object and shapechange, all of which are amongst the strongest spells of their level.

Pathfinder heavily changed the whole spell school, bringing down the power level, but I'm not sure how or why, so I'll leave that for others.

[Grand Poobah]

Pathfinder heavily changed the whole spell school, bringing down the power level, but I'm not sure how or why, so I'll leave that for others.

One reason is because it's one of the spells that can make the party martial classes feel decidedly second rate. The party wizard isn't, in some people's minds at least, supposed to out fight the fighter.

The DM can house rule the wizard needs knowledge of whatever monster they want to change into to keep it sensible though, which is what I do.

[sleepyphoenixx]

As a humanoid Alter Self is merely strong, not utterly broken as it is if you're an Aberration or Outsider. Still a very good spell to have, if you take the time to look up good forms. Or read the handbook. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2811)
Polymorph on the other hand is probably the strongest 4th level spell ever printed, hands down. There's a handbook for it too. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=519)

If your group is all beginners i'd suggest not overdoing it. Because you can, very easily.

[KillingAScarab]

Pathfinder heavily changed the whole spell school, bringing down the power level, but I'm not sure how or why, so I'll leave that for others.If you want to know the "why" directly from the designers at Wizards, they did a Design & Development article: The Polymorph Problem (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a). Rich Burlew's own take on both the why and the how can be found in This Old Rule (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9606750&postcount=4). For too-long;didn't read crowd:

A more comprehensive fix (and one that I think is on the right track) was incorporated into the Pathfinder® rules. This is basically the same core idea as I had, just taken even further.
...
I didn't go far enough. They did. Credit where credit is due. Just about the only decision I disagree with is keeping the problematic polymorph any object spell, specifically its ability to turn pebbles into humans and the like. That's just confusing.
...
...for regular tabletop play, I recommend the Pathfinder® version.

[Ethernil]

I believe among the most cheesy races for alter self and polymorph is deep imaskari, from the under dark book, 0 la +2 int -2 dex and some other stuff but most importantly they can get the otherworldly regional feat that gives the the outsider type. Not having outsider forms really cripples those 2 spells, making them less broken imo.

[ExLibrisMortis]

One reason is [...]

If you want to know the "why" [...]
You're quite right, of course, but let me amend my post, because it was unclear what I meant: "I don't know how they changed polymorph et al., or why they chose whatever specific way they did". As in, I haven't got a clue what power level they are (supposed to be) at. That requires some PF system mastery that I don't have.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I believe among the most cheesy races for alter self and polymorph is deep imaskari, from the under dark book, 0 la +2 int -2 dex and some other stuff but most importantly they can get the otherworldly regional feat that gives the the outsider type. Not having outsider forms really cripples those 2 spells, making them less broken imo.

"Cripples" is a rather harsh description. It removes some options, but especially Polymorph is still thoroughly broken even if you're just a humanoid.

Even Alter Self still has some pretty good options left when you consider what you're getting for a 2nd level slot.
Up to 8 NA, skill bonuses up to +15, flight and a small selection of bonus feats is pretty potent at level 3.