[3.5] Hypothetical Class Modification

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

A reply I made in another thread got me thinking: how would a class using the Witch spell list (DMG p.175) play if it got access to it's entire spell list, as a Beguiler?

I think the list is limited enough that it shouldn't be a huge problem - admittedly, it does get some fairly powerful spells.

Thoughts?

Cheers - T

[XionUnborn01]

I can't see anything that would cause a problem, other than the fact that the have "Change Self" as a 1st level spell which, from my search, doesn't exist.

[Venger]

I'm not seeing much of a problem in play if it functioned like one of the prixe fixe casters. In practical play it would probably act more like a dread necromancer with a slight bit more utility.


I can't see anything that would cause a problem, other than the fact that the have "Change Self" as a 1st level spell which, from my search, doesn't exist.

change self is the 3.0 version of disguise self.

[Thurbane]

I'm offering the Witch class with "Beguiler" style casting as an option for two new PCs in my group - I'll see if anyone takes it up.

[Vaz]

She casts spells as a sorcerer, using the sorcerer’s Spells per Day table (see page 52 of the Player’s Handbook), and her spells are based on Charisma. The witch’s spell list is designed with
the following considerations in mind.

...

0 Level: arcane mark, cure minor wounds, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, detect poison, flare, ghost sound, light, mending, read magic, resistance, virtue.
1st Level: cause fear, change self (disguise?), charm person, command, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, doom, endure elements, hypnotism, identify, silent image, sleep, speak with animals, ventriloquism.
2nd Level: alter self, blindness/deafness, calm emotions, cure moderate wounds, delay poison, detect thoughts, enthrall, invisibility, locate object, minor image, scare, whispering wind.
3rd Level: bestow curse, clairvoyance/clairaudience, contagion, create food and water, dispel magic, Leomund’s tiny hut, magic circle against chaos/law/evil/good*, major image, rage, remove blindness/deafness, suggestion, tongues.
4th Level: charm monster, crushing despair, discern lies, divination, fear, giant vermin, good hope, locate creature, minor creation, neutralize poison, polymorph, remove curse, scrying.
5th Level: baleful polymorph, dream, false vision, feeblemind, greater command, magic jar, major creation, mirage arcana, nightmare, seeming, sending.
6th Level: animate objects, control weather, eyebite, find the path, geas/quest, greater scrying, heroes’ feast, legend lore, mass suggestion, mislead, repulsion, shadow image, Tenser’s transformation, true seeing.
7th Level: creeping doom, finger of death, insanity, liveoak, repel wood, transport via plants.
8th Level: antipathy, demand, discern location, horrid wilting, polymorph any object, sympathy, trap the soul.
9th Level: earthquake, foresight, refuge, shapechange, wail of the banshee, weird.

A Sorcerer has;

9x0, 5x1, 5x2, 4x3, 4x4, 4x5, 3x6, 3x7, 3x8, 3x9

As you can see from the underlined spells being the ones that I'd consider the most powerful, that the Sorcerer, which it's up against has a similar number of top tier spells simply makes it have a little bit more utility. A Sorcerer has a wider variety of spells to select from, but in the end, the Witch has the same number of top level spells, and with Foresight AND Shapechange available, there isn't much more powerful available to any casters outside of Wish, and if you let it get to the stage where Wishes are being thrown about as often of Foresight and Shapechange can be, it'll be a tough ride anyway.

[Tiri]

A Sorcerer has;

9x0, 5x1, 5x2, 4x3, 4x4, 4x5, 3x6, 3x7, 3x8, 3x9

As you can see from the underlined spells being the ones that I'd consider the most powerful, that the Sorcerer, which it's up against has a similar number of top tier spells simply makes it have a little bit more utility. A Sorcerer has a wider variety of spells to select from, but in the end, the Witch has the same number of top level spells, and with Foresight AND Shapechange available, there isn't much more powerful available to any casters outside of Wish, and if you let it get to the stage where Wishes are being thrown about as often of Foresight and Shapechange can be, it'll be a tough ride anyway.

Not to mention the fact that you can just Shapechange into a Zodar or something with a similar ability anyway.

[Thurbane]

A Sorcerer has;

9x0, 5x1, 5x2, 4x3, 4x4, 4x5, 3x6, 3x7, 3x8, 3x9

As you can see from the underlined spells being the ones that I'd consider the most powerful, that the Sorcerer, which it's up against has a similar number of top tier spells simply makes it have a little bit more utility. A Sorcerer has a wider variety of spells to select from, but in the end, the Witch has the same number of top level spells, and with Foresight AND Shapechange available, there isn't much more powerful available to any casters outside of Wish, and if you let it get to the stage where Wishes are being thrown about as often of Foresight and Shapechange can be, it'll be a tough ride anyway.

Thanks for the breakdown, Vaz. Interesting analysis.

So, you're saying in terms of RAW power, the Witch would be roughly Equivalent to the Sorcerer, due to getting roughly the same number of top tier spells/level?

I guess the Witch sacrifices versatility, not to mention the tons of ACF and other splat support that Sorcerers get.

[Vaz]

Yeah. I mean, I can't speak empirically, but given that the Witch casts as a Sorcerer with it's spells/day, but knows the entire spell list, the only thing to compare it against is the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer has the same spells/day, but has less spells known - but compared to that, it has the possibility to learn the same spells from the Sorcerer list, including the notable "power spells". I didn't go deep enough to really double check if there are any non-Sorcerer spells on that list, or if there are any which are available earlier, but I wouldn't have thought so with the Witch being so early into the 3.5 production run.

But yeah, it's not as though the Witch has a list of spells known which are more powerful than a theoretical Sorcerer which can also pick up those same spells. If you can handle a Cleric, Druid, or Wizard in a campaign, you should be fine with a class-feature-less class getting a slightly different spell-list, even if they are all known.