Where is our slot?

[weckar]

So, currently I'm running in a party where we have a Wizard, a Cleric, a martial initiator (specialising in extreme damage and being nigh-unhittable).
There was also a Psion, but they just died. And that player now wants to play something wildly different while still doing something useful.
Frankly the only thing I could think of was Artificer, but those have a bit of a dodgy reputation in my group.
Are there any other obvious options I'm simply not thinking of?

[Crake]

Well, you seem to be lacking a sneaky, charismatic skillmoney? Beguiler could be a cool, fun fit in with the group?

[Gruftzwerg]

If the player likes to roleplay I would suggest a Bard build. It would fit in the group and give you a face for the social encounters. And every good group should have a barb for the songs and tales to tell from their heroic encounters ;)

[weckar]

We were considering a face type, yeah. Beguiler and Bard have been much overplayed in the group recently though, and this specific player kind of likes left-field classes.
Plus, the Wizard has already taken up the role of party chronicler (and even has perform ranks).

[MisterKaws]

What about Truenamer? It's a decent Skillmonkey, and can fill in quite well as a p*kedex/healbot/buffbot/g**gle translate. It would probably give the Cleric a lot of extra slots they'd be normally using for the stuff the Truenamer does.

[Inevitability]

What about Truenamer? It's a decent Skillmonkey, and can fill in quite well as a p*kedex/healbot/buffbot/g**gle translate. It would probably give the Cleric a lot of extra slots they'd be normally using for the stuff the Truenamer does.

1. No, just no. Truenamer fails to work on any level.

2. Why are you censoring the o's?

[weckar]

Truenamer isn't THAT bad at lower levels, but we're running 13-14 by now. So no Truenamers.

That said, is the Shadowcaster any good? Other than a general lack of support?

[JeminiZero]

Well, you've got Wizard and Cleric spell lists, so... Druid or Spirit Shaman?

Ardent? PsyWar? Binder? Dragonfire Adept? Warlock?

Or maybe one of the Race specific classes: Shadowcraft Mage? Weretouched Master? Chameleon? Warforged Juggernaut? Skypledged?

[Inevitability]

Truenamer isn't THAT bad at lower levels, but we're running 13-14 by now. So no Truenamers.

That's not the only problem, though. The class itself is completely broken mechanically. Powers have unclear effects, powers have ridiculous effects, powers contradict themselves... A crapton of houseruling is needed to make the class even work.

[weckar]

Well, you've got Wizard and Cleric spell lists, so... Druid or Spirit Shaman?

Ardent? PsyWar? Binder? Dragonfire Adept? Warlock?

Or maybe one of the Race specific classes: Shadowcraft Mage? Weretouched Master? Chameleon? Warforged Juggernaut? Skypledged?

Yes, but what niche would those fill in this party? I mean, yeah those are cool variant options as to what has been done - but I don't see a direct new contribution appearing.

[Fouredged Sword]

You need a face who is different and not commonly played? How about a Sha'ir from dragon compendium? Let him work with the wizard to know different spells and use his abilities to scribe scrolls of unusual spells.

I have played around with the idea of a Rogue / Sha'ir / Unseen Seer build. Very sneaky, very flexible, and you can pull just the right divination out when it is needed.

Another good option for the man who doesn't know what to play - Rogue 5 / chameleon 10.

[weckar]

Another good option for the man who doesn't know what to play - Rogue 5 / chameleon 10. I'm going to take this advice as being equally valid for a girl who doesn't know what to play :smalltongue:

[ExLibrisMortis]

How about a nice incarnum build? Not too charisma-focused, but can get high skill bonuses to pretty much everything. Add a dash of warlock or DFA (1 level, Beguiling Influence), marshal (1 level, Motivate Charisma), and binder (1 level, Naberius), and you have yourself a rock-solid social skillmonkey.

(fluff-wise, almost none of your social graces come from actually being, you know, social - it's all soul energy from deceased diplomats, your dark patron's heritage, and vestigial spirits from the great beyond)

[MisterKaws]

2. Why are you censoring the o's?

Why not?


That said, is the Shadowcaster any good? Other than a general lack of support?

It's decent for CC/Debuffing; pretty mediocre otherwise. Though you can go nuts and turn it into a meatshield with some shenanigans.


That's not the only problem, though. The class itself is completely broken mechanically. Powers have unclear effects, powers have ridiculous effects, powers contradict themselves... A crapton of houseruling is needed to make the class even work.

I've read this at someone's signature, but I just found myself agreeing with it: the game is only broken if you see it as that.

Sure, the Truenamer has a bunch of stuff that could be abused, but only if you allow it. A real D&D group shouldn't have problems. I most certainly wouldn't recommend using it on roll20 or something, but on a normal group with mature, friendly people, it's not a problem at all.

[Zaq]

It's mostly just frustrating to try to play a Truenamer at high levels. It's possible, but it's honestly not usually that much fun even if you manage to bludgeon it into effectiveness, at least not when compared to the amount of work you have to put in.

Kind of taking the idea of "lots of legwork" and running with it, how would your group/GM react to a nice minionmancer? Make no mistake: minionmancy requires a hell of a lot of effort to pull off smoothly and in a way that isn't disruptive at the table, so if the player/players in question can't or won't put in that effort, stay away. But it might be an interesting way of doing something different. (What form the minionmancy takes—Dread Necro, Thrallherd, Malconvoker, etc.—is up to you, but it's something.)

Spellthief might be interesting. Now, Spellthieves are definitely a lower-tier class than Wizards and Clerics (and martial initiators), but they do at least do something unique. And if you borrow spells from willing allies ahead of time, you can basically let the Cleric and/or the Wizard get their spells on the field faster, since you've got two characters contributing the necessary actions, so the Spellthief would still have something to do even if you didn't run into too many casting enemies. Steal Spell-Like Ability and Steal Spell Effect are likely to be the real standout abilities, though, since like I said, nothing else can really do those things. It is a little bit unfortunate that, despite having 6 + INT skill points and being CHA-based for their own spells, they don't really get too many face-type skills (pretty much just Bluff), but there are ways around that if it's really important to you. It's tempting to use the Master Spellthief feat to advance Steal Spell without additional Spellthief levels, but that's not going to be very effective, since only Spellthief levels advance how many stolen spells you can hold, and only Spellthief levels advance Steal SLA, Steal Spell Effect, and the Steal Resistance abilities. (You might still take Master Spellthief anyway just to remove the ASF from light armor on stolen spells and to buff your caster level, but don't remove your ability to be a Spellthief if that's what you want to do.)

Also cool about Spellthieves in a party with a Wizard and/or a Cleric: Spellthieves can steal personal-only buffs, which is really neat. (They can't steal active personal-only buffs, mind you—they have to steal the prepared/known spell itself and then cast it—but they can still get access to buffs that the Cleric can't normally give their partymembers. Like, you know, Divine Powah. Which isn't necessarily crazy OP on a Spellthief or anything, but it's amusing nonetheless.)

My recommendation of Spellthief does assume that the GM isn't going to make every monster immune (directly or indirectly) to Sneak Attack, but it's definitely a "left-field" class, and smart tactics (ideally with party support) can definitely make up for the fact that it's a relatively low-tier class. If nothing else, just serving as an action-economy booster for the Wizard and the Cleric can certainly be interesting, and then you tack on sneaky skills and Sneak Attack and the ability to rip away an enemy's energy resistance and that sort of thing.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Another cool option is to pick a nice monster from our favourite LA-assignment thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485938-The-LA-assignment-thread).

[gorfnab]

How about Factotum?

[Erit]

No love for Binder in this thread? How about a meldshaper of some description?

[Inevitability]

Another cool option is to pick a nice monster from our favourite LA-assignment thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485938-The-LA-assignment-thread).

I'm getting linked! I'm so happy! :smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wu-jen/ sword sage/ jade-phoenix mage. Seems bog-standard fare, right? Here's the twist: spirit binding. There's a whole host of wacky and wild critters that fall into the spirit category to play with and you're sun-wukong when that doesn't fit the bill.

[Cerefel]

Another good option for the man who doesn't know what to play - Rogue 5 / chameleon 10.

I agree with the sentiment, although I'd suggest a different entry into chameleon like binder or factotum.

[Fouredged Sword]

I personally like Factotum 3 / duskblade 3 for a fun chameleon entry. Rogue 2 / duskblade 3 is a more combat focused and slightly earlier option with craven and evasion. Factotum 5 is a good option as well.

[Menzath]

I've found it fun sometimes to go bard8/chameleon10/ and finish with two levels of an initiator class. Lots of everything.

[Hogsy]

You could always give a look at Jormengad's Truenamer fix, the Worldspeaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?397500-The-Worldspeaker-revisited-Truenamer-PEACH). Truenamer has fantastic flavour, and I personally think he's done a fine job of fixing most of the classe's issues. Besides, he could always go Binder AND Worldspeaker and be the most unique person ever.

[John Longarrow]

For off the wall, a Caryatid column. They have an Int of 6 so you could let one take levels in what ever. For player stats I'd probably go

6 racial HD
Str +10, Dex +6, Con -, Int -4. Let them have average Wis and Cha instead of saddling them with -10 to each.
They also get their +9 Natural Armor and their harness of 8 (plus break weapon) so I'm guessing a LA of 4?

over all it would be a unique and fun character to try, but would be pointed towards either melee or skill centric for their build.

[weckar]

In the end she decided on a Paladin/Glaivelock. So yeah, effectively [/thread]

[Kelb_Panthera]

Paladin/ warlock? Oookkkaaayyy. Would not have been able to guess that.

[weckar]

The intent is to be a face/defender. Being able to lock movement in a large area with Combat Reflexes and Eldritch Glaive, while getting Charisma to saves (potentially twice) and mithral full plate.

Far from ideal, but it looks like it should at least be fun to play for them.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Hmm, did you recommend the usual level in crusader? Iron Guard's Glare does fit pretty well with the 'face' role (it's social influence, after all), and it's really rather useful.

[weckar]

We considered it, but decided to spend the one spare level available on binding Naberius instead.

[John Longarrow]

Which type of paladin? Normally being Lawful Good precludes warlock...

[weckar]

O' Freedom. For the two levels it is taken the distinction is moot.