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View Full Version : Friendly Advice Dating, Dungeons, Dragons and the rest.



killem2
2016-11-14, 12:07 PM
I apologize this is going to be very long-winded but just bear with me. I'm the DM here, dealing with two current players.

So I have an Unwritten rule the rule doesn't come into question very often I think it's only came into contention 4 times in the last 6 years before this post. The first two or a pair of 19 year olds who wanted join our group and I let them and after one session they wanted to know if their girlfriends could come play as well I told each of them I can't do that.

The Fallout from dating and DND is not something I wanted to deal with. They took it well but eventually after a couple more sessions they left. The third person who had been playing with the group since pretty much 2011 asking me the same thing in 2014. I told him no and even though he was 20 years old he was actually very mature about it he understood where I was coming from and for a lack of better words you don't s*** where you eat.

And that player stayed with us Faithfully until the beginning of 2016 when he had to move away.

Now we get to one of my friends ) Let's just call him Bob who I've known for a very long time (since 1998) who moved from another state (after a divorce and custody of two kids being arranged) and brought a girl with and Bob swore she just a roommate they were just friends and I was okay with that. She was a cool person and grasp pathfinder very easily. Those two join the group well technically Bob had already been playing but Bob was playing remote so she was a new person. And everything was fine for about 6 months. Now they were pretty flirty with each other outside of work outside of the DND group. Sometimes it bled into their characters but nothing real bad.

They had a seriously bad fall out. It was then I learned I was lied to and they did have a "friends with benefits" sort of thing going on. Not sure who wanted more out of it but it wasn't going to happen, and thus downward spiral began. I of course said you both can still come to dnd, just leave your baggage at the door. You are adults. I also told Bob I wasn't cool with him hiding that from me, because I would have told Bob you can't bring her if this is the case. Of course at the end of it, and a lot of I won't come if she is coming so I will gracefully pull away from the group and vice versa and in the end. Bob stayed she didn't want it to be awkward even though it already was.


Now, we move to present day. Which is not even a month since Bob's roommate has left his apt and our group for good. We have a woman lets call her Susie who has played with the group for almost 3 years took a break because of a divorce, which Susie is still dealing with and custody of 2 kids and so forth. Now that her scummy ex-husband has to actually watch his own kids Susie has some free time every other weekend. I invited her back, and all was well. The first session was this last weekend since she has played.

At first nothing seemed out of the norm. About 2 hours in to our session which ran from 11 am to 7 pm, I get text saying I think Bob is hitting on me. Now, I'm in the middle of the adventures right now and trying not to break this all up. I simply replied to her to tell Bob to **** off (jokingly). I let it go. I notice they are taking smoke breaks a bit more often, and I had to repeatedly get their attentions when their turns came up. They were clearly messaging on facebook or something secretly. Bob changed, clearly acting a bit more how to put it, cutesy. Awwing over puppy videos, (no sound but I could see it), and when my daughter (4 years old) would come down who he normally gives no **** about or attention to, suddenly dusts off his dad hat and is playing with her. Ok whatever, i'm like /rollseyes.

After it was all said and done, I finally had a chance to message Susie and told her I already told Bob that I don't allow non-committed relationships (engagement/marriage) at my dnd table. Susie told me a move has been made and she isn't sure where to go from here:

I sent them both this message:

You are free to make any adult decision you like. I'm not saying you can't date. I'm saying if you do, this is what happens. It's a rule i've always had. I'm not trying to control or manipulate you and susie. It's my rule that non-married couples are not going to play at my dnd table. I didn't say you can't come to my party, or game night if I have one. Or go to movie nights I host somewhere else, or parties I might have.

So don't try that guilt trip **** on me it won't work. And you know this. I hate the fact that I have to be a Dutch Uncle and be so damn blunt.. I know from experience and from countless other people in position who had DM groups that it does interfere with d&d , if it didn't you could do what ever you want with my blessing. It's a very small group and we don't it to get smaller we don't want to deal with fall out from broken friendships.

Basically, she said they are just friends now, he says they are platonic friends, and I told bob, that the relationship that i have with susie is Platonic. I care about her family and her, I would do anything for her and her family but sex is off the table. Any relationship aspects along those lines are OFF THE TABLE and never were on the table. Because I don't think he knew really what that meant.

Of course, he was not happy with me, he asked me if he's not allowed to hang out with people outside of dnd (which seriously is such a spin on this it is not even funny). He made some cold past tense usage comments with friendship. And the only thing he has sent to me since was, You should invite lets call her Judy (the ex-roomate) back.

I simply replied with:

I think I'm going to stick with what I got. I've had so much change to this group, I'm going to Keep it with person 1, person 2, and person 3 for the foreseeable future, and if you and susie are just friends then there isn't any reason to not have you two. And if person 2 turns out not to be able to play often and it's just person 1 and person 3 , then it's person 1 and person 3.
I've ran sessions for years on just person 1 and his son

nothing since.

My wife and I seem to be in agreement, and person 1 who has been playing with me since 2011, agreed that, it was very hard dealing with Judy and Bob's break up and the fall out was bad for the group.

I have my own reasons for not allowing dating couples. Because, it makes my life as a DM very hard to deal with changes like this when I have people committing. You affect the group, encounters, and story. That is one part. It's not the only part. The friendships that get hurt also is a reason.

I own opinion about Bob and Susie I have not shared with either of them as they both share needs for advice with me. I don't think it would work long term but that's not for me to decide. I keep protect the dnd group nothing more.

Am I just dead wrong? I hate doing it, but the only difference here is they went ahead and started something. Even though Bob was well aware of my rule now. She seems fine and was cheerful to me when I last saw her yesterday in person, he of course isn't speaking to me.

How do any of you deal with dating in your gaming circles? Do you leave it up for maturity to decide? What's done is done, but i feel like adults (both over 30 at this point) should understand where I'm coming from.

Flickerdart
2016-11-14, 12:10 PM
I won't say that my dating excludes dungeons, but dragons are certainly a no-no. :smallamused:

Chen
2016-11-14, 02:15 PM
Explicitly forbidding couples from playing because of potential fallout seems a bit too restrictive to me. Letting people know that should there be a breakup someone may need to stop playing (or both) seems reasonable though, presuming that they can't get along after the breakup.

killem2
2016-11-14, 02:20 PM
Explicitly forbidding couples from playing because of potential fallout seems a bit too restrictive to me. Letting people know that should there be a breakup someone may need to stop playing (or both) seems reasonable though, presuming that they can't get along after the breakup.

If they were two reasonable people. I might agree. That's my problem. I have friends who don't play with us but are BF/GF GF/GF BF/BF and they are mature enough that I could have them there.

Unlike these two, which is the fact both are drama queens, and one has a really poor record of good relationships.

But overall, it's why I blanket it like i do, so I don't have to worry about it.

Aedilred
2016-11-14, 03:33 PM
It's one thing to say people can't introduce their partners into the game, but to kick out two established players because they started dating leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth somehow. It seems to tick a lot of the boxes about stereotypical D&D players not being able to handle adult relationships, not to mention making you look like a bit of a control freak. The line you use: "you don't **** where you eat" itself betokens something of an unhealthy attitude I think. As people get older they have less time to spend with people and the idea that social life and relationships should have a clear and stark division where never the twain shall meet is pushing people into making decisions they shouldn't have to make. As a player, or indeed as a person, if anyone started effectively trying to tell me I couldn't date certain people or that if I did we would both face negative consequences* I think I'd walk off on general principle. That's not their call and it's not their business.

This is the problem with blanket policies: they're a very blunt instrument and often predicated on the worst case scenario - as yours is - which means that in application they're rather flawed, because people are more complicated than that.

If it's starting to interfere with the game itself, then you have a bit more justification for saying something. But even so forcing them to choose between continuing to see each other and continuing to play in your game would require that it's interfering with the game quite a lot in order to be reasonable. I can't say to what extent that is currently a problem but given everything else you say I wouldn't be surprised if you're viewing things in the worst possible light in order to justify your assumptions.


when my daughter (4 years old) would come down who he normally gives no **** about or attention to, suddenly dusts off his dad hat and is playing with her. Ok whatever, i'm like /rollseyes.
He paid attention to his friend's daughter? What an absolute tool.


Of course, he was not happy with me, he asked me if he's not allowed to hang out with people outside of dnd (which seriously is such a spin on this it is not even funny).
The way you have described the situation and your reaction to it, I can completely sympathise with his response. Who are you to tell him who he can and can't see away from the D&D table? If you're going to start butting into his love life then why not go the whole hog and direct his entire social life for him?


*notwithstanding obvious situations like pursuing someone who's already in a relationship, but that wouldn't occur to me to do anyway.

Vizzerdrix
2016-11-14, 09:07 PM
Seems legit to me. Your table has a rule that is well known and established and they choose to ignore it. Tell them to flip a coin and the winners can stay.

Serpentine
2016-11-15, 06:33 AM
In my opinion, your "rule" is an immature and juvenile one that needlessly restricts both yourself and your game, and the people you want to play in it.
Your table, your rules, obviously. But personally, if I were checking out prospective games and that came up I'd Bye Felipe out of there before you could say "roll initiative".

Cozzer
2016-11-15, 06:46 AM
The rule seems... excessive to me, but I acknowledge that broken relationship can unleash all kind of badness and I understand the need of keeping that away from the table. That said, I think that kicking from the game one or two people because they hooked up with each other while they were already players is too much. I mean, even from an utilitarian perspective, it seems to be generating more drama than it's avoiding, isn't it?

And even if I accept the rule, I have to say that your message looks needlessly aggressive to me. I mean, if you said "look guys, I'm really sorry but I have this rule, I always enforced it and making an exception for you would be unfair to the others" it would be one thing (I would still be pretty annoyed, and we would probably both retire from the game, but I would understand), but being on the receiving end of that self-righteous tirade just because I started dating someone would definitely make me not interested in playing (and possibly interacting) with you again.

DracoknightZero
2016-11-15, 07:07 AM
Misunderstood the entire thing so i got rid of my post.

Though my opinion of this "Bob" isnt very high for lying, it is also on your cape that you should get a few ranks in diplomacy to get a understanding for your rules. In the end you have a very harsh way of enforcing it though.

Chen
2016-11-15, 07:46 AM
If they were two reasonable people. I might agree. That's my problem. I have friends who don't play with us but are BF/GF GF/GF BF/BF and they are mature enough that I could have them there.

Unlike these two, which is the fact both are drama queens, and one has a really poor record of good relationships.

But overall, it's why I blanket it like i do, so I don't have to worry about it.

See it seems you're causing certain drama and getting rid of two people from your gaming group because of the possibility of them causing drama and then losing them from the gaming group. How does that make any sense? I mean in the absolute worst case they start causing drama and you kick them both out and be done with it. You've ended up at the same place you were if you enforced your rules with possibly LESS actual drama than that caused by the rule and you've lost the two people from the group anyways. Hell in that situation if like one person more than the other you could just kick ONE person out and you'd still have one player around!

chrestomancy
2016-11-15, 09:29 AM
Interesting thread, thanks for sharing.

A long time ago, dating within gaming groups was a problem for me. It was more to do with favouritism than anything else; and the flirting, pre-relationship stage was if anything worse than the point where they actually got it together. I would also occasionally lose key players when they got into relationships with non-roleplayers, many of whom seemed to take great delight in scheduling stuff to conflict with the regular social activity of their other half that they didn't understand.

In general, the older everybody got, the less it was a problem. Players and GMs who were no fun to play with when in a relationship tended to bring more than just their relationship issues into the game sessions anyway. I don't play with them so much, if at all, any more. There's been a few occasions when I, or one of my friends, has run a newbie-friendly game in order to induct a partner of a gaming group, because it's still generally much better to have a significant other who understands, or better takes part, than one who is left out, unhappy and disruptive.

So - I don't know your players, I don't know how bad they are at bringing RL into the game. Your rules seem to be accepted by your players, so I'm guessing that you are either a great GM, or your group agrees in general that this is an issue, or both. But it's a good idea to do what you are doing in this thread, which is to review your policies and question if they are right. Because what was right two years ago, and what may be right now, may not be in a year or two.

Good luck, and I hope it all works out!

Telonius
2016-11-15, 09:31 AM
The last time I was in a gaming group without a dating couple in it was ... 2000-ish? 2002? Right now we've got two married couples in our group (including me and my wife). Making any kind of a rule against couples (non-committed or otherwise) seems extremely weird, arbitrary, and off-putting; I'd probably not game with any group that had one. In 15+ years of gaming we've never had problems with breakups. But if we had, that would be more of an issue with people causing OOC drama in general rather than a problem with dating in particular.

Mauve Shirt
2016-11-15, 03:50 PM
You could also try being mature enough to handle two people dating.

Giggling Ghast
2016-11-15, 03:55 PM
The Iron Bull enjoys all three of them.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonage/images/d/d3/Iron_Bull_Profile.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150404020551

Sorry for the digression. :smalltongue:

pendell
2016-11-15, 07:21 PM
If it were my table, I would have the following rules:

Rule 0: You are assumed to be a mature adult, able to deal successfully with other human beings and life situations.

1) Leave the drama at the door. If you can't leave the drama behind, go solve it first and then come play.

2) Treat your fellow players with respect and consideration. Any failure to do so is grounds for ejection.

Beyond that, I'll let them sort their personal lives for themselves. That's not my business. What happens at the table is my business.

I'd still try to enforce those rules with some compassion however. We're GMing for human beings, not soulless automata. That means there will always be something going on in people's lives -- exams, car accidents, health issues, job issues, you name it. The trick is to help people to leave all that behind and live in a world where they are heroes, even if it's only for an hour. Not so much an escape as it is a vacation.

So if someone comes to the table and had a problem, I'd want to talk to them about it privately before lowering the hammer. Who knows? Maybe the game group can be more than just a game group and help them get through it.

This assumes, of course, that you're an adult gaming with fellow adults. If you're an adult GMing for high school or younger I defer to the parents here. But I suspect the solution is much the same -- if the kids aren't able to play, call their parents and have them deal with it at home.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

killem2
2016-11-16, 05:40 PM
Update.

I gave in. I told them that if it goes bad, if you both can't be adults about it, don't come back. I don't want another repeat of Bob's i'll come if she doesn't or she'll come if bob doesn't.

In addition, after talking to the other people at the group we agreed that:

No PDA, it's not appropriate. Keep your flirting to your smoke breaks, and the need to pay attention is crucial. Talk on your smoke breaks or chat outside of d&d if you have to. But we can't be trying to keep fighting for you attention.

pendell
2016-11-16, 05:47 PM
Excellent. I hope it works out and you guys can have fun together!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

BWR
2016-11-17, 10:14 AM
I met my girlfriend through gaming. We've been playing together for 13 years now. One of our groups has two couples.
The sort of restriction the OP has is ridiculous. The real problem is people, not couples.

Ruslan
2016-11-21, 04:52 PM
I think you are wrong. Not dead wrong, but still wrong. I can see where you're coming from, wanting to avoid drama in your D&D group, but you are being heavy-handed about it, and this creates more problems than it solves.

EDIT:

Update.

I gave in. I told them that if it goes bad, if you both can't be adults about it, don't come back. I don't want another repeat of Bob's i'll come if she doesn't or she'll come if bob doesn't.

In addition, after talking to the other people at the group we agreed that:

No PDA, it's not appropriate. Keep your flirting to your smoke breaks, and the need to pay attention is crucial. Talk on your smoke breaks or chat outside of d&d if you have to. But we can't be trying to keep fighting for you attention.
And now that I had the chance to read the entire thread, I see the problem was solved simply by ... being less heavy-handed!

I also second the ban on electronics when playing.

Scarlet Knight
2016-11-21, 09:26 PM
Ha! kids today! In MY day girl gamers were as rare as hen's teeth ! ( They were more common than dire hen's teeth but I digress) . We were D&D players ! Dating? Bah! That was inconceivable ( oh, not that we didn't try but we were ...well...D&D players) We were thrilled to have someone in the group to use our chainmail bikini figure!