Why the Sapphire Guard is needed more than ever right now

[Porthos]

I've read quite a few posts over the last few weeks that say that with the destruction of the Azure City Gate, there is no reason for the Sapphire Guard to be around anymore.

Pure poppycock, in my opinion. :smallsmile:

I would think that Azure City (and the world at large) needs the Sapphire Guard more than ever right now. Don't forget there is a little thing I like to call A Rip in the Space-time Continuum hovering above Azure City. And this little Rip in the Space-time Continuum just happens to House an Unspeakable Engine of Destruction that is bent on nothing less than the destruction of the entire world (and the various gods that the people of said world worship). Someone has to make sure that the Rift doesn't expand. Someone has to make sure that Bad People don't try to use the Rift for their own ends. Someone has to try and rebuild the Gate. And finally, someone has to stay behind and watch over this Rift while other people battle over the last couple of Gates.

Why not the Sapphire Guard? :smallsmile: They already know about the problem, just how high the stakes really are, and what the price of failure is (and a broken castle just reinforces that view). Also they seem pretty dedicated to making sure that the Rift does not endanger the world at large. Could they be a bit better in their hiring practices (i.e. Miko)? Sure. But no organization is perfect. :smalltongue:

Also, people seem to forget that there were a fair number of the Sapphire Guard that did not take part in the Siege of Azure City, since they were away from city (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html) at the time of the battle. So it's not like the entire Guard is bereft of membership. It would seem that Hinjo is still going to have a good core of people to fall back on, once he has a chance to contact them.

Course they do have this minor little problem concerning hobgoblins overrunning Azure City right now. And there is the potential for a small little spat over who should rule the city between Hinjo and various nobles. But there's always problems that have to be dealt with when you're dedicated to saving the world. :smalltongue:

So, even though the Sapphire Guard has taken a massive body blow to both its prestige and it's material strength, it still has a purpose in its world. Hopefully they'll be able to eventually rally and overcome these (fairly hefty) setbacks. :smallsmile:

[Rainseeker]

The Sapphire Guard is going to have some problems, being Mostly Dead.

[Porthos]

The Sapphire Guard is going to have some problems, being Mostly Dead.

But Mostly Dead, in the immortal words of The Princess Bride, is not the same as All Dead. :smalltongue:

Besides, we have no idea how many members of the Guard where outside of the city when it was attacked. O-Chul said that "many are away". Now what does "many" mean. Twenty? Fourty? A hundred? Who knows. But there is a core of Guardsmen for Hinjo to fall back on, should he require them. :smallsmile:

[Gundato]

Did the Sapphire Guard (in general) really know WHY they existed? I mean, I am sure they knew they were an order of paladins devoted to protecting the world by committing mass genocide on the gobbos. But I got the feeling that the specifics were on a need to know basis.

Don't get me wrong, the self-righteous army of genocidal maniacs WOULD be really useful, if only as shock-troops), but I don't think they would be more useful than any other order of self-righteous fighters with fun perks.

[mockingbyrd7]

But Mostly Dead, in the immortal words of The Princess Bride, is not the same as All Dead. :smalltongue:

Besides, we have no idea how many members of the Guard where outside of the city when it was attacked. O-Chul said that "many are away". Now what does "many" mean. Twenty? Fourty? A hundred? Who knows. But there is a core of Guardsmen for Hinjo to fall back on, should he require them. :smallsmile:

Is it possible for someone to win their own thread? :smallbiggrin:

I agree that the Sapphire Guard is NOT defeated, that they can rally (maybe with Kazumi and Daigo, too?) and rebuild their beloved city and the gate.

[David Argall]

Did the Sapphire Guard (in general) really know WHY they existed? I mean, I am sure they knew they were an order of paladins devoted to protecting the world by committing mass genocide on the gobbos. But I got the feeling that the specifics were on a need to know basis.


While their knowledge may well have been defective, it likely included all that has appeared in the comic. They are aware of the other gates because they take oaths not to seek them out.
They are aware of the nature of the Gate enough to easily make a decision that it is better to destroy the Gate than to let it fall into the lich's power.
They are in constant contact with those who know the full story.

We can posit a situation where they don't know why they do these things, but it is much easier to assume they receive a briefing about like the crayon strips when they join the order.

[Porthos]

We can posit a situation where they don't know why they do these things, but it is much easier to assume they receive a briefing about like the crayon strips when they join the order.

I fully agree with you with everything you said. :smallsmile:

SoD Spoilers:

And to back up your theory, at least one of the Paladins (presumably the Strike Force Leader) says during the attack on the Goblin village, "Also, one among you threatens the very foundation of creation itself." Since the Paladin spoke of this so freely and without any hint of trying to couch his words, it seems fairly obvious to me that everybody on the Strike Force new why they were slaughtering goblins. Anf if the various Strike Forces knew about it, I don't see any reason why the rank-n-file Paladins wouldn't know either.

Now they probably didn't realize the whole "coming back as a Ghost Martyr if they died defending the Gate" angle (that was confirmed as Royal Knowledge Only). But the whys and wherefores of defending the Gate? Considering that O-Chul said, "We will gladly lay down our lives in defense of the Gate," it would seem to me that most, if not all of the SG knew exactly what they were defending (especially since it was a Random Paladin that first suggested destroying the Gate to keep it out of Xykon's hands).

Besides, how can you call it "The Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard" if the Guard doesn't know about it? :smalltongue:

[WarriorTribble]

Definitely agree the guard must be to protect the rip, but unless they've have some Xykon level Arcane and Divine casters we don't know about I'm not sure how the gate will be recreated. Unless of course a spare sapphire was created just in case a situation like this happened.

[Gefangnis]

Well, the problem now is that Xykon is in control of the gate. I doubt any of the paladins in what's left of the Sapphire guard can beat Xykon and/or redcloak, if Miko, the strongest of them, barely managed to beat redcloak.

[Porthos]

Well, the problem now is that Xykon is in control of the gate. I doubt any of the paladins in what's left of the Sapphire guard can beat Xykon and/or redcloak, if Miko, the strongest of them, barely managed to beat redcloak.

We already know that Xykon is going to eventually head out to Girard's Gate. That's when the Sapphire Guard (or what's left of it) can make their move. :smallsmile:

[Renegade Paladin]

Did the Sapphire Guard (in general) really know WHY they existed? I mean, I am sure they knew they were an order of paladins devoted to protecting the world by committing mass genocide on the gobbos. But I got the feeling that the specifics were on a need to know basis.

Don't get me wrong, the self-righteous army of genocidal maniacs WOULD be really useful, if only as shock-troops), but I don't think they would be more useful than any other order of self-righteous fighters with fun perks.
Genocidal maniacs don't get to be paladins. :smallsigh: I recommend you get over your sympathy for evil; it's unhealthy.

[Morty]

Genocidal maniacs don't get to be paladins. :smallsigh: I recommend you get over your sympathy for evil; it's unhealthy.

I assumed it was more of despise for "I'm a paladin, everything I do is Right" rather than sympathy for evil.
As for topic: yes, Sapphire Guard is needed, but I doubt they will be of any help. They're decimated, scattered, and their base of operations is controled by hobgoblins. Not to mention Redcloak is very likely to send his minions to hunt down and kill the remaining members of Sapphire Guard, to get futher revenge.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

I assumed it was more of despise for "I'm a paladin, everything I do is Right" rather than sympathy for evil.
As for topic: yes, Sapphire Guard is needed, but I doubt they will be of any help. They're decimated, scattered, and their base of operations is controled by hobgoblins. Not to mention Redcloak is very likely to send his minions to hunt down and kill the remaining members of Sapphire Guard, to get futher revenge.

Um, actually, I think this is going to be a future plot. The OOTS could go around trying to gather the rest of the Sapphire Guard to help them protect the gates.

[RelentlessImp]

But Mostly Dead, in the immortal words of Miracle Max, is not the same as All Dead. :smalltongue:

Besides, we have no idea how many members of the Guard where outside of the city when it was attacked. O-Chul said that "many are away". Now what does "many" mean. Twenty? Fourty? A hundred? Who knows. But there is a core of Guardsmen for Hinjo to fall back on, should he require them. :smallsmile:

Fixed. *nod*

Miracle Max, Vizzini, Fezzik and Inigo Montoya were the greatest characters in that movie :P

Back on topic, back in the Order of the Scribble flashbacks, Shojo stated that every Paladin took an oath not to interfere with the gates; to take that oath, it stands to reason that they know the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard.

Also, Hinjo stated that "most of the city doesn't even know they exist" (which, incidentally, makes it hard to redeem those Sapphire Guard coupons Shojo kept giving them...), so again, that could be a measure to protect said lore, which, in a roundabout way, supports the theory that at least 90% of the Paladins (above first level) knew the Secret Lore.

Also, yes, Azure City needs the Sapphire Guard now. When they said "many," I do believe some more detail was added to that to specify that "one half" or so of them were off on business in other lands. As for Hinjo and the nobles, I hope he'll get some big, brass you-know-whats and imprison every noble that acted against him (at least Kobuta) without trial, and summarily execute them. (Which, as Belkar stated, would be "Getting off his high horse and doing what's best for [his] city, even if [he] turns a lovely shade of tan for it.)

So. May the Sapphire Guard come and reclaim the city, either before or after the hobgoblins leave, and may Azure City and its gate get rebuilt.

[Gundato]

Genocidal maniacs don't get to be paladins. :smallsigh: I recommend you get over your sympathy for evil; it's unhealthy.

Read up on your SoD. If that ain't genocide, I don't know what is. It just so happens that their acts of genocide count as "raids" and the like since the targets are monsters. Whether or not the gobbos had it coming is another topic altogether, but that was still a genocidal rampage.

And in case you haven't noticed, a big theme in OOTS is the difference between the Good alignment and actual goodness. Take On the Origin of PCs for example. Everyone in Roy/Durkon's party were technically of a Good alignment, but only two (well, maybe one, since Durkon at the time was kind of arguable) of the characters in said party were actually good people (well, Durkon was somewhat arguable at the time, so maybe just one).
Hell, look at Miko. Up until that one little event, she was LG (and one could argue that she shifted to NG, instead of LN).

[Yoritomo Himeko]

As for Hinjo and the nobles, I hope he'll get some big, brass you-know-whats and imprison every noble that acted against him (at least Kobuta) without trial, and summarily execute them. (Which, as Belkar stated, would be "Getting off his high horse and doing what's best for [his] city, even if [he] turns a lovely shade of tan for it.)

:smalleek: Um, if he did that, not only would he fall, but that would be more like going Blackguard and becoming evil. That is not "doing what is best for his city", that's just being evil and cruel. He'd be worse than Miko.

[RelentlessImp]

As for Hinjo and the nobles, I hope he'll get some big, brass you-know-whats and imprison every noble that acted against him (at least Kobuta) without trial, and summarily execute them. (Which, as Belkar stated, would be "Getting off his high horse and doing what's best for [his] city, even if [he] turns a lovely shade of tan for it.)

:smalleek: Um, if he did that, not only would he fall, but that would be more like going Blackguard and becoming evil. That is not "doing what is best for his city", that's just being evil and cruel. He'd be worse than Miko.

Actually, no.

The city was already in chaos when Shojo was murdered by Miko. Hinjo was attempting to restabilize the city, and as he did that, Kobuta sent assassins after him. In most lawful societies, treason is punishable by death, which is precisely what just happened with Kobuta; treason. Executing him would be a lawful act. Might not be a "good" act, and would cause him to fall, but it would be a lawful act. Same with any and every other noble that has sent assassins against them; they're guilty of treason, at which point the lawful thing to do is lock them up (at the very least).

But we'll just have to wait and see. I do hope Hinjo doesn't let any of them off the hook.

[basilisk 89]

Um, actually, I think this is going to be a future plot. The OOTS could go around trying to gather the rest of the Sapphire Guard to help them protect the gates.

I would love that. The Sapphire Guard is kick-ass....my favorite thing in OotS (right behind the cool paladin guy with flaming sword and bandana).

[BRC]

Actually, no.

The city was already in chaos when Shojo was murdered by Miko. Hinjo was attempting to restabilize the city, and as he did that, Kobuta sent assassins after him. In most lawful societies, treason is punishable by death, which is precisely what just happened with Kobuta; treason. Executing him would be a lawful act. Might not be a "good" act, and would cause him to fall, but it would be a lawful act. Same with any and every other noble that has sent assassins against them; they're guilty of treason, at which point the lawful thing to do is lock them up (at the very least).

But we'll just have to wait and see. I do hope Hinjo doesn't let any of them off the hook.
Not only treason but conspiring to murder royalty, conspiring to assasinate the leader of the city, refusing much needed aid in the form of troops to the city, ect

[Gundato]

But the mere fact that there wouldn't be a trial would make it a Chaotic act. Even if said trial was basically just "You are accused of this, do you have any evidence to the contrary?", a trial would be needed.

[Daimbert]

Well, the problem now is that Xykon is in control of the gate.

Wait, what gate [grin]?

Actually, not as specious a question as it seems: gate went boom, so nothing to control.

[BRC]

But the mere fact that there wouldn't be a trial would make it a Chaotic act. Even if said trial was basically just "You are accused of this, do you have any evidence to the contrary?", a trial would be needed.
They could have the Trial of Daymio Kabuto (abridged)

[Yoritomo Himeko]

I would love that. The Sapphire Guard is kick-ass....my favorite thing in OotS (right behind the cool paladin guy with flaming sword and bandana).

That's a interesting coincidence. A lot of people really like him. Do you know about Redemption? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50342) It's a fancomic made by Colinmarc, one of the members here. I think it's pretty good.


Actually, no.

The city was already in chaos when Shojo was murdered by Miko. Hinjo was attempting to restabilize the city, and as he did that, Kobuta sent assassins after him. In most lawful societies, treason is punishable by death, which is precisely what just happened with Kobuta; treason. Executing him would be a lawful act. Might not be a "good" act, and would cause him to fall, but it would be a lawful act. Same with any and every other noble that has sent assassins against them; they're guilty of treason, at which point the lawful thing to do is lock them up (at the very least).

But we'll just have to wait and see. I do hope Hinjo doesn't let any of them off the hook.

What I meant was that if Hinjo were to execute them without a fair trial, that would make him unlawful and cruel. While he has the right to serve justice as he sees fit (like execution), he still needs to have a trial for them.

We still have trials for people even when they have been caught and they are "obviously" guilty.

Even though they are guilty, they still need a trial. Hinjo should not go around executing whoever he thinks might be against him. That was what I was trying to say.

[David Argall]

Hinjo was attempting to restabilize the city, and as he did that, Kobuta sent assassins after him. In most lawful societies, treason is punishable by death, which is precisely what just happened with Kobuta; treason. Executing him would be a lawful act.
No. Rather clearly chaotic. Also quite possibly beyond his ability.
Lawful is heavily into form. It is more important to have the trial than to have the execution. By lawful logic, no matter how sure you are of the result, you are just one individual. You are simply incompetent to determine the result. Accordingly the trial must be held. You may lose a few guilty people, but you get the surer verdict. The trial also serves the function of letting the rest of the society know what the rules are, and that they will be enforced.

But for a trial, Hinjo has a distinct shortage of evidence. The word of a couple of dead ninjas, who may well have been told to lie if captured or whatever. That's not what you call a solid case. [Magic will likely improve it, but the defense also uses magic, and Hinjo might be lucky if that was a wash.]
So his execution of Kobuta will merely protray himself as a tyrant, and bring the law into disrespect.

We also have the practical problems. Kobuta has his army, but Kinjo has lost his. That makes it hard to enforce any orders, much less order the arrest and execution of the most powerful noble in the city. Indeed, it may be that the only thing that allows Hinjo to stay in power would be that the nobles are divided and Kobuta is merely the strongest of them, which means several of the lesser nobles can prosper by backing Hinjo.

Hinjo will likely have to treat assassination attempts as just part of the game.

[basilisk 89]

That's a interesting coincidence. A lot of people really like him. Do you know about Redemption? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50342) It's a fancomic made by Colinmarc, one of the members here. I think it's pretty good.

Yeah, but thanks. I wrote back story for him too. I wish he hadn't been killed....he was the coolest character in the strip by far.

[Felius]

No. Rather clearly chaotic. Also quite possibly beyond his ability.
Lawful is heavily into form. It is more important to have the trial than to have the execution. By lawful logic, no matter how sure you are of the result, you are just one individual. You are simply incompetent to determine the result. Accordingly the trial must be held. You may lose a few guilty people, but you get the surer verdict. The trial also serves the function of letting the rest of the society know what the rules are, and that they will be enforced.


Not necessarily. This is indeed true in the particular instance of Azure City, by all we have to seem, but do not hold true to any situation.

For example, a city that had the Emperor-God ethos or the "I am the State" ethos could very be lawful to the core, and still allow the ruler to imprison and execute without any evidence or trial and still do it lawfully so. After all, he isn't as much bound by the laws, as he is the laws.

[Roderick_BR]

I wouldn't worry about people trying to take over the rift, as it would result mostly in death, without a powerful artifact or magic, like a portal, to manipulate it safely.
Remember that people are interested in the portals, not going directly in the rift.
About keeping it from expanding.. yeah, that would be a problem.

[Gundato]

They could have the Trial of Daymio Kabuto (abridged)

Just so long as there is at least a farce of a trial :p

[Kreistor]

The Sapphire Guard is one Lord (who isn't really supposed to enter battle anymore), one paladin powerful enough to be assigned to guard a boat instead of the Throne, and a paralyzed bald guy who may or may not make it.

I don't think the Sapphire Guard are going to be affecting the recovery of Azure City much at all.

[Stevenson]

Yeah, except they don't exist anymore, y'know, slight problem.

[David Argall]

The Sapphire Guard is one Lord (who isn't really supposed to enter battle anymore), one paladin powerful enough to be assigned to guard a boat instead of the Throne, and a paralyzed bald guy who may or may not make it.

Those are the immediately available resources. As has been pointed out, there are a substantial number of paladins who could not get home for the fun.

Oh yes, the SG also has some loyal troops [2+].

[Ithekro]

They are in for a rude shock when they get home and find that their homes, their castle, their gate, their leader, and just about everything is gone.

Vengence, in the name of the Sappihire Guard and all that is stood for, it just over the horizon, waiting to regroup.

That will be what is in store for the remaining hobgoblins after Redcloak moves on to the next gate.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Those are the immediately available resources. As has been pointed out, there are a substantial number of paladins who could not get home for the fun.

Oh yes, the SG also has some loyal troops [2+].

I have a feeling Kazumi and Daigo will become paladins and join the new Sapphire Guard.