Simulacrum City

[unseenmage]

Say a settlement has a tax of one Simulacrum for any persons desiring entance to the city. Payment occurs at the city gates via sets of enchanted mirrors.

The simulacrums are evaluated and assigned to serve the city as publicly owned slaves of the state.

Would you pay such a tax? Why? Whynot?

What if your character hailed from said city? How would you convonce your compatriots that the process is normal and beneficial for all?

Edit: We will assume that the city's evaluatory process is lackluster at best. Simulacrum here are literallly a dime a dozen. The officials in charge of the program are as uncaring of the Simulacrum as any in power are of a slave labor force.

Sure they'll tag the thing correctly if it has special powers or publicly dangerous abilities.

Also, guess there's no reason someone requesting entry couldnt just use a proxy. Perhaps stand-ins lurk just outside the city gates hawking their willingness to be copied in your place for a fee.

The farmer leaves his wife or kid to get copied while he rolls on to market.
The adventurers draw straws or leave their pet zombie to get copied once for each of them.

The elites of the city have special.servants theyve hired just to act as stand ins.

Edit Again: I see that publicly Simulacrum-ing visitors to the city goes over like a turd in a punchbowl.

What about secretly Simulacrum-ing? How does it go undetected? Is there a way to work it into a Custom Magic Item or Custom Wondrous Architecture?
(apologies of i am mot making myself clear, the changing season has inflicted illness on myself and my family and we are all pretty moserable right now. makes collecting one's thoughts somewhat futile.)

[icefractal]

Probably not, if I had a way to avoid it. Not because of the slavery part - Simulacra don't have a real personality AFAIK - but because of the fact that a Simulacra has the memories of the original and can be commanded to reveal any of them. Knowledge is power, and giving away that much power to ... the city council, I guess ... is undesirable.

As far as reputation issues - if they use my Simulacra to assassinate people, for instance - that's not a big concern, because in a world where Disguise Self is a first level spell, that ship has already sailed long ago.

[Solaris]

It's only a partially real duplicate of me, so... By their very natures, simulacra don't have a real sentience of their own. They're under constant control of the original, and I assume in this case they're swapped over to control of the city. The only reason I could see that being a problem is if I were possessed of some really remarkable power, in which case it'd be rather unethical to let that get under someone else's control.

[weckar]

I'd demand a Memory Modification wipe. Otherwise I'll stay outside thank you very much.

And I'd like to reserve the right to buy the Simulacrum back upon leaving the city.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yeah, this is a pretty big ask. What do I get out of it?

[Coidzor]

Seems like a pretty clear attempt at getting a variety of spells known from any adventurers passing through.

I also have to wonder about how much it slows down trade and whether Dan the turnip deliveryman has to have his morning commute into the city to sell the produce from the outlying villages delayed by getting off the cart, queuing up to have an illusory double made that is a public slave that resembles him totally, and then getting back onto the cart every day.

[unseenmage]

...
They're under constant control of the original, and I assume in this case they're swapped over to control of the city. The only reason I could see that being a problem is if I were possessed of some really remarkable power, in which case it'd be rather unethical to let that get under someone else's control.

Under control of the spellcaster, in this case the posessor of the magic item casting the spell, but I see what you mean.

And agreed about restricting access to certain superpowers.
One womders though, what if someone with a functionally equivalent unique and powerful superpower was getting their simulacrum made right there in front of you...
Do you intervene or are you only concerned with yiur own special abilities becoming public property?



I'd demand a Memory Modification wipe. Otherwise I'll stay outside thank you very much.

And I'd like to reserve the right to buy the Simulacrum back upon leaving the city.

Both reasonable. The guards would shrug and tell you to have at it. At this point they've heard it all before I'd think.


Yeah, this is a pretty big ask. What do I get out of it?

Entrance into the ciy. One would assume a city capable of collecting such heavy taxes/fees to be wealthy/prosperous enough to be worth paying thise fees.


Seems like a pretty clear attempt at getting a variety of spells known from any adventurers passing through.

I also have to wonder about how much it slows down trade and whether Dan the turnip deliveryman has to have his morning commute into the city to sell the produce from the outlying villages delayed by getting off the cart, queuing up to have an illusory double made that is a public slave that resembles him totally, and then getting back onto the cart every day.

That seems likely, though as this would have been going on for some time so the gains might not be worth the effort of farming each individual for infodumps.

And yeah, there are LOTS of duplicates of the locals wandering about. They're the commons. Adventurers are the rares. Imagine it though, a whole subculture dedicated to buying and trading unique Simulacrum slaves.

Menageries filled with Simulacrum freakshows.

A loved one dies and now you can buy a Simulacrum of them from when they were in their 20s.

[Darrin]

If the city has the resources to produce an unlimited number of simulacra, then I don't really see the purpose of the tax, as you've got a "Post Scarcity" situation there: unlimited energy/resources, no reason to tax anything because anything you want can be produced effortlessly at little or no cost. You already mentioned proxies, so if you want to avoid ethical dilemmas, there's the obvious solution of just use a proxy that isn't considered a sapient being. Need cheap labor? Mindless constructs + simulacrum. Need food? Cow + simulacrum = unlimited beef. Or djinns with major creation SLAs. Money can be created any number of ways.

So if the city is imposing this tax... the question becomes why? Some possibilities: Blackmail. Mind control. Information brokering. Or maybe there's some larger economic game that's being played out above and beyond the unlimited earthly resources game: trading/extracting/binding souls. Or there are a limited number of creatures born into the world that can ascend to some deific existence later on, and the city is hoping to be lucky enough to "dupe" one so they can tap into this divine power later.

[Segev]

The access to my memories would be quite the invasion of privacy. I do subscribe to the "simulacra are not people" theory. In the very literal sense that they're philosophical zombies and thus have no "there" there. They're just illusions that can act in every way like the original.

However, the original's memories become an open book to the city official that's in charge of them. And that's a pretty serious invasion of privacy.

It wouldn't even have to be more than a perfunctory check for most: "Answer as if you were the original, with no prevarication. Is there anything you have done or plan to do which you believe would make us wish to detain, execute, or exile you?"

And I'm sure that a more practiced mage-interrogator could refine that question still further; you get the idea. That would be practically benign, too; only those who are criminals or planning to be such would be caught that way. Well, and those who have some knowledge, skill, or possession which they fear would make them desirable targets for enslavement or imprisonment/extortion. (The proverbial "I can't tell anybody or the MIB will want to vivisect me!" fear.)

Adding "do you have any information about [list of wanted persons/organizations]" and the like would make it even more thorough. This would be a spectacular tool for a totalitarian regime.

[Quertus]

[The simulacrum having the original's memories --> no.

The town having infinite free simulacrum creation at will, allowing stand-ins, and yet calling this an entrance fee tax --> wtf?

[Segev]

The town having infinite free simulacrum creation at will, allowing stand-ins, and yet calling this an entrance fee tax --> wtf?

That is an excellent point. If they can cast simulacrum at will, and allow stand-ins for the "tax," there's no reason for the "tax." Just have a cadre of professionals you pay to be copied multiple times per day, and your city labor force will be enormous.

[weckar]

And yeah, there are LOTS of duplicates of the locals wandering about. They're the commons. Adventurers are the rares. Imagine it though, a whole subculture dedicated to buying and trading unique Simulacrum slaves.Did you just make this into a trading card game?

[Hamste]

Did you just make this into a trading card game?

It is like Pokémon only when they fight it is to the death and most people are less useful than a machamp at carrying boxes.

[KillianHawkeye]

That is an excellent point. If they can cast simulacrum at will, and allow stand-ins for the "tax," there's no reason for the "tax." Just have a cadre of professionals you pay to be copied multiple times per day, and your city labor force will be enormous.

Yeah, pretty much this. You wouldn't even have to pay the people a lot if there's no cost to using the magic.

If the city has this ability, why use it in this way unless there's some ulterior motive? And if people are okay with being copied, it really doesn't cost them anything, so how is it a "tax"? The whole thing doesn't make sense. Plus, there are about a million terrible things it could lead to.

Here's a short list of better things a city could do with unlimited simulacra:
Body doubles for any important citizen
Hire some adventurers or the resident Jango Fett and form an unstoppable clone army
Incorporate copying into the justice system as a punishment for minor crimes, as a part of or in place of indentured servitude
Guilt-free gladiatorial entertainment
Interactive theater (combine simulacrum with mirage arcana and you basically have Star Trek's holodeck)
Start a service industry where professional copyists and agencies compete to prove they're the best subjects and earn exclusive government contracts to be copies for various purposes
Guilt-free prostitution
Capture foreigners in order to send their duplicates back as spies or assassins in other countries
Make copies of spellcasters for the explicit purposes of sharing spells and making magic items en masse
Evolve into a decadent society where everyone has their own simulacra of themselves who do all their work for them while the real versions enjoy a life of luxury and self-gratification

The possibilities are practically endless, and your best idea was entry fee? :smallconfused:

[weckar]

SOME of those problems could be alleviated by making it so the mirror's user needs to be willing... but then, is anyone ever truly 'willing' to pay their taxes?

[unseenmage]

...

The possibilities are practically endless, and your best idea was entry fee? :smallconfused:

Is it just me or is this unnecessarilly critical?

[Coidzor]

I suppose the real question is, what on earth kind of void are they throwing the Simulacra into that they need to keep creating them and aren't up to their eyeballs in simulacra.

An average adult male human is 175 pounds while a female human is 140 pounds. Averaging them we get 157.5 pounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#heightAndWeight)

Per Create Water, water is 8 pounds to the gallon, 8 gallons or 60 pounds to the cubic foot. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createWater.htm)

Humans are basically water. Ergo, a 157.5 pound human is about 2.625 cubic feet.

Simulacra are made out of ice. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) So they should weigh basically the same, maybe a little less due to ice being less dense than water. At any rate they should occupy the same volume.

A Metropolis has 25,000+ population.

Assuming the city occupies 1 square mile and is a moderate Metropolis at a nice round 30,000 permanent residents, and that 10% of the population enters and leaves the city each day, that means that 7875 cubic feet of volume is added to the city each day beyond what is accounted for by goods in and waste (out). About 7 million people can fit in a square mile if standing shoulder to shoulder with no personal space but not quite being compacted. Takes about 2,333 and 1/3 days to make that many Simulacra, or about 6.39 years.

[weckar]

That of course begs the question: Are Simulacra edible? Because this would be a good solution for a cannibal society really.

[unseenmage]

I suppose the real question is, what on earth kind of void are they throwing the Simulacra into that they need to keep creating them and aren't up to their eyeballs in simulacra.

An average adult male human is 175 pounds while a female human is 140 pounds. Averaging them we get 157.5 pounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#heightAndWeight)

Per Create Water, water is 8 pounds to the gallon, 8 gallons or 60 pounds to the cubic foot. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createWater.htm)

Humans are basically water. Ergo, a 157.5 pound human is about 2.625 cubic feet.

Simulacra are made out of ice. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) So they should weigh basically the same, maybe a little less due to ice being less dense than water. At any rate they should occupy the same volume.

A Metropolis has 25,000+ population.

Assuming the city occupies 1 square mile and is a moderate Metropolis at a nice round 30,000 permanent residents, and that 10% of the population enters and leaves the city each day, that means that 7875 cubic feet of volume is added to the city each day beyond what is accounted for by goods in and waste (out). About 7 million people can fit in a square mile if standing shoulder to shoulder with no personal space but not quite being compacted. Takes about 2,333 and 1/3 days to make that many Simulacra, or about 6.39 years.

This had occurred to me. I thought perhaps war. Especially extraplanar war but a good ol fashioned neighboring country war should kill off enough just the same.

[Quertus]

Is it just me or is this unnecessarilly critical?

IMO, it's not nearly critical enough. But that's the kind of **** i am. :smalltongue:

[Segev]

That of course begs the question: Are Simulacra edible? Because this would be a good solution for a cannibal society really.No. Once "killed," a simulacrum returns to being a pile of slush.


IMO, it's not nearly critical enough. But that's the kind of **** i am. :smalltongue:It is needlessly insulting. The same sentiment could be expressed by simply saying, "all of these are much better[/stronger/more powerful/more economical] uses of this capability." Insulting somebody by sneering that they didn't come up with better is unnecessary and is more likely to make them reject your otherwise constructive message.

[Quertus]

It is needlessly insulting. The same sentiment could be expressed by simply saying, "all of these are much better[/stronger/more powerful/more economical] uses of this capability." Insulting somebody by sneering that they didn't come up with better is unnecessary and is more likely to make them reject your otherwise constructive message.

Ah. Fair enough.

[Fouredged Sword]

It would be easier just to farm specific individuals. It is easier to get unlimited copies of a single good fighter than copies of EVERY good fighter and there are not major benefits from getting more than 4-5 variations for specific tasks.

It would be far better to spend tons of money finding the singular individual who happened to roll all high stats and train them with the best educations money can buy to shape them into the perfect skilled individual to copy over and over again.

[weckar]

No. Once "killed," a simulacrum returns to being a pile of slush.
Edible slush?

[unseenmage]

No. Once "killed," a simulacrum returns to being a pile of slush.
...

That said one imagines battlefields of Simulacrum armies to be constantly flooded, of at least soggy.

[Jack_Simth]

Edible slush?
Well, if you read The Spell In Question (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm), you've got:
If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness.(emphasis added)
So you don't even get slush, really. You briefly get snow, but it melts instantly into nothingness. So you'd have to eat it live. And then you'd suddenly have an empty belly when it died. No nutritional value in a simulacrum.

As to the philosophical zombie / guilt-free bits... that's one of those "ask your DM" questions. It boils down to "How do you define a person?" - a Simulacrum has all six stats (if the original does), has some memories (unclear how much of the original's life it remembers - although as the Sense Motive check is only DC 20 (as in, 5% of untrained commoners will make it, and forget passing muster vs. someone appropriate to a level 13+ game that has actual ranks in Sense Motive) I've always assumed that they've only got half of the memories of the original... not that it's really spelled out, one way or the other), the full set of senses, and could not fool anyone if it didn't have emotional reactions. It can also accumulate memories, even though it can't level (would make a useless spy if it couldn't).

A lot of people will say it's obviously not a person, it's the result of a spell. In day-to-day interactions, however, you'll also get a rather lot of people who have serious trouble telling the difference - especially when there are spells you can apply to a person that have a markedly similar effect (Necrotic Domination comes to mind as a permanent one, but even just Dominate Person will do, really).

[unseenmage]

IIRC in Faerun there are rather quite a few Simulacrum who have attained freedom, true existence, or both.

[kalos72]

In my campaign, we use Sims alot, Ice Assassins too.

Never allow a sim of yourself unless you have complete control over it or YOU mind raped it yourself. (Thats sounds bad doesn't it)

We use IA's of characters that have died in previously games or one from other spheres/worlds.

We also have the house rule that says the sim/ia can be created with no personal memories of the "host" AND you can change the physical appearance of the sim/ia during the creation process. You can select general features or go roll random.

I like the idea of ways to get the sims, with none of your memories, to become normal living people. :)

[sleepyphoenixx]

The only free Simulacrum in Faerun i recall went insane after its creators death and became the bad guy of a mid-level adventure.
Can't remember which it was, but i found the idea interesting at the time so it stuck with me.

[KillianHawkeye]

Is it just me or is this unnecessarilly critical?

Critical? Sure. Unnecessary? That's entirely subjective.


The same sentiment could be expressed by simply saying, "all of these are much better[/stronger/more powerful/more economical] uses of this capability."

I did ALSO say this. :smallannoyed:


Insulting somebody by sneering that they didn't come up with better is unnecessary and is more likely to make them reject your otherwise constructive message.

Look, criticism isn't the same as insulting someone. You need to be able to accept criticism to function in society. Did I call him an idiot, or say that he lacked creativity? No. You're really misreading the situation.

I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings, but it wasn't meant as an insult. But yes, it was a criticism. It didn't even take five minutes to write that list of better ideas. Believe it or not, I'm only trying to expand the way people think. It's important for everyone to be able to critically evaluate themselves and their ideas in order to improve.

But, it's obvious that nobody will agree with my point of view. I'm probably going to be shouted out of this thread imminently, so I'll just depart and leave you all to your own devices. Sorry for interrupting everyone's precious fantasy time.

[unseenmage]

The only free Simulacrum in Faerun i recall went insane after its creators death and became the bad guy of a mid-level adventure.
Can't remember which it was, but i found the idea interesting at the time so it stuck with me.

I was mistaken. I was thinking of Clones.

Which could also be hilarious in place of Simulacrum but for completely different reasons.