Volo's and the problem of high level play

[MrFahrenheit]

So I've posted about this before, but with Volo's release (I got mine delivered yesterday - a whole day early! Woohoo!), and seeing the monsters contained therein, it still rings true.

At high levels, there are a dearth of monsters not meant to be bosses. One way this is alleviated is through throwing in minions in boss battles. However:

1. Not every battle should be a boss battle
2. Turning what were once bosses into non-bosses at this level feels cheap (it's not like ogres were early on), so you need to keep in a LOT of low CR creatures. Which at first glance seems like no biggie, thanks to bounded accuracy. However, it can be a micromanagement nightmare for the DM, and a timesuck for the players, who wait an eternity between turns.
3. Along the "feeling cheap" lines, not every battle should be on unique/dangerous terrain, either: ("ANOTHER battle...on a narrow rope bridge three miles above an active volcano?!...on air canoes next to an anvil cloud?!...in a shipwreck inside a collapsing air bubble?!").
4. YMMV, but I can't always deny the party their rests. Mainly because I strive for my campaign to be a 50/50 split between combat and rp. Might not necessarily apply to dungeon crawls.

I've therefore come to the conclusion that, until an MM2 or other splatbook, the last few levels of a campaign need to go by fast.

[Theodoxus]

I've given up all pretense of regulated rests. The two modules I've run or played in, RoT and OotA, are far too sandboxy and staged for essentially World Quest scenarios to keep the players on the edge and low on resources.

So, instead I throw higher CR critters, make them work of their wins, blow their load and rest. I cringe at the thought of random encounters... I use milestones, so REs are just wasted time, and combat, while faster than 3.P, is still slow.

Different mindset, I guess. I just don't find it fun to not have everything I own at the tip of my fingers... I guess I'm a WoW junkie... but I haven't heard any player complain about not having a grittier game either.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I don't really get your point 2. What feels cheap about, say, traveling through an Empyrean stronghold, or entering one of the Hells and encountering many major high-ranking fiends, or beginning to directly confront the most powerful servants of Valsharoon in your holy quest for Kelemvor and regularly fighting Liches & high level undead?

I get what you're saying a little bit, when it comes to actual boss monsters with legendary / lair actions, but there are a lot of choices without those mechanics.

Also, if you're not already, I'd highly recommend using average damage for minions, and possibly even putting them on a distribution for attack rolls (e.g. mark the minions into group 1 and group 2, roll a d20 and flip a coin / roll evens and odds, add or subtract a luck bonus for each based on that roll)

[MrFahrenheit]

Not a different mindset as much as you may think. Ive never played either (I always do homebrew worlds), and agree that adjusting CR higher is fine. The problem comes from the fact that the micromanagement of lots of low level henchmen gets increasingly annoying and time consuming. It's either that, or beholders/rakshasas/adult dragons/etc are everywhere. These are supposed to be unique and iconic creatures fought in rarity. Only exception I can see are high CR golems, if you have a Terminator-esque campaign.

[MrFahrenheit]

I don't really get your point 2. What feels cheap about, say, traveling through an Empyrean stronghold, or entering one of the Hells and encountering many major high-ranking fiends, or beginning to directly confront the most powerful servants of Valsharoon in your holy quest for Kelemvor and regularly fighting Liches & high level undead?

I get what you're saying a little bit, when it comes to actual boss monsters with legendary / lair actions, but there are a lot of choices without those mechanics.

Also, if you're not already, I'd highly recommend using average damage for minions, and possibly even putting them on a distribution for attack rolls (e.g. mark the minions into group 1 and group 2, roll a d20 and flip a coin / roll evens and odds, add or subtract a luck bonus for each based on that roll)

Hm...I like what you're saying about devils and such, but even in your example, it can only last so many sessions. Also never really thought to use average damage as I like to roll as much as any player, but that makes total sense for goons, and cuts down on time between players. Nonetheless, it'd be nice if we could get some high CR monsters that were intended to be mooks, and readily available on the prime material.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Hm...I like what you're saying about devils and such, but even in your example, it can only last so many sessions. Also never really thought to use average damage as I like to roll as much as any player, but that makes total sense for goons, and cuts down on time between players. Nonetheless, it'd be nice if we could get some high CR monsters that were intended to be mooks, and readily available on the prime material.

Why can it only last for so many sessions? At level 20 a Cleric can just ask for a divine favor once per day and the deity says yes no questions asked, and you started being able to play 20-questions with them at level 9. Why couldn't a deity say, "Hey guy, please move to hell for me." High level adventures are kinda innately beyond the mortal ken.

And we do have high-CR monsters that are supposed to be mostly located on the Prime Material - Empyreans, Dragon Turtles, Liches, et cetera. Yes, they're not really intended to be mooks but that's inherent to the theme of high-level play. I'd call it a feature, not a bug. Anyone who can stand up to a party of level 20 characters isn't going to stand for being treated like a mook.

[MrFahrenheit]

Why can it only last for so many sessions? At level 20 a Cleric can just ask for a divine favor once per day and the deity says yes no questions asked, and you started being able to play 20-questions with them at level 9. Why couldn't a deity say, "Hey guy, please move to hell for me." High level adventures are kinda innately beyond the mortal ken.

And we do have high-CR monsters that are supposed to be mostly located on the Prime Material - Empyreans, Dragon Turtles, Liches, et cetera. Yes, they're not really intended to be mooks but that's inherent to the theme of high-level play. I'd call it a feature, not a bug. Anyone who can stand up to a party of level 20 characters isn't going to stand for being treated like a mook.

No disagreement here. But not every battle can be against a dragon turtle or empyrean, etc., so what do you do to make up the in between time? There aren't a lot of options to play with.

[Baptor]

No disagreement here. But not every battle can be against a dragon turtle or empyrean, etc., so what do you do to make up the in between time? There aren't a lot of options to play with.

Probably not the answer you're looking for but I make LOTS of custom monsters. I use the MM monsters mostly for inspiration and occasionally for an iconic battle (Beholders, etc). Using the tools in the DMG you can make some very fair monsters rather quickly at any CR. So I can make infernal zombies that are CR 10 mooks or a Spellthief Elf who's CR 15 if needed.

If making your own mobs isn't your thing, I hear the Tome of Beasts by Kobold Press has 400 monsters and reviews say its better than the MM. I've not bought it though, so take that as second hand.

[MrFahrenheit]

I'd love to make my own mobs, but time is an issue.

My reasoning on speeding up play is basically because there's so little available at high levels, exponentially increasing quest/rp XP is the only way to keep the campaign moving along.

[Malifice]

I'd love to make my own mobs, but time is an issue.

My reasoning on speeding up play is basically because there's so little available at high levels, exponentially increasing quest/rp XP is the only way to keep the campaign moving along.

My home campaign is at 11th presently and I'm getting no such problems.

[RickAllison]

No disagreement here. But not every battle can be against a dragon turtle or empyrean, etc., so what do you do to make up the in between time? There aren't a lot of options to play with.

Class levels. Or at least abilities similar to what you would get from class levels. With a few good spells or class features, it can dramatically improve a creature's capabilities.

[Malifice]

No disagreement here. But not every battle can be against a dragon turtle or empyrean, etc., so what do you do to make up the in between time? There aren't a lot of options to play with.

Gimme a party level man, and I'll happily stat up 6-8 level appropriate challenges for your party.

[MrFahrenheit]

Mine's at 16th. I saw the problem coming though by 8th - CR 13 seems like a milestone for boss monsters.

As for class levels and such, that seems to be the consensus here. I've been tampering with that for a while; gonna have to try it out.

[MrFahrenheit]

Gimme a party level man, and I'll happily stat up 6-8 level appropriate challenges for your party.

The issue isn't the inability to create level appropriate combat encounters, but the lack of pre-made options for doing so without getting cheesy ("yet another elder brain and ulitharid? How many of these are there?!") or boring in practice ("ice devil + horned devil + a couple glabrezus + four imps + a bunch of spiked devils? Good thing the combat started at 11am real time. Guess I'll be home tomorrow.")

[eastmabl]

Throwing in my 2 cp here - maybe not all high level challenges need to be combats.

At a certain level, characters are going to cut through their foes like knives throw hot butter. There are only so many reasonable high level monsters that you should expect to encounter, even in a points of light campaign.

So instead of jumping throwing combat encounters at the players, engage in skill challenges and roleplaying encounters with foes worthy of them. You could have them negotiating with the most powerful NPCs in the world (or the plane of existence), or engaging in skill challenges to navigate their way to their foes.

Heck, even high level magical traps might be a good way to challenge players and expend resources without resorting to the boss monsters right away.

[MrFahrenheit]

Throwing in my 2 cp here - maybe not all high level challenges need to be combats.

At a certain level, characters are going to cut through their foes like knives throw hot butter. There are only so many reasonable high level monsters that you should expect to encounter, even in a points of light campaign.

So instead of jumping throwing combat encounters at the players, engage in skill challenges and roleplaying encounters with foes worthy of them. You could have them negotiating with the most powerful NPCs in the world (or the plane of existence), or engaging in skill challenges to navigate their way to their foes.

Heck, even high level magical traps might be a good way to challenge players and expend resources without resorting to the boss monsters right away.

Absolutely. I've had my game 50/50 combat/skill & rp. One of the few ways I've imagined to get around the lack of high CR monsters is to change that ratio. Hopefully not too drastically.

[Malifice]

The issue isn't the inability to create level appropriate combat encounters, but the lack of pre-made options for doing so without getting cheesy ("yet another elder brain and ulitharid? How many of these are there?!") or boring in practice ("ice devil + horned devil + a couple glabrezus + four imps + a bunch of spiked devils? Good thing the combat started at 11am real time. Guess I'll be home tomorrow.")

In my experience, such a battle wouldn't take more than 20-30 minutes to resolve. You've gotta keep the pacing up in combats and not give the Players more than a second or two to tell you what they're doing, and to cut down on the reading up of abilities (even at high level, the players should darn well know their abilities by now). Monsters too, just get into their heads and act accordingly without thinking about it for more than a second or two.

You've gotta implement countdowns for players - once their turn comes up you look at them and ask them what they're doing. They have a 2-3 second countdown to tell you or they take the Dodge action (hesitate) and their turn ends.

Same deal with monsters. Most of the time its (roll a d20 or two) for an attack/ multiattack routine that should take like 30 seconds at most to resolve.

Me: 'Ok, its the Balors turn. He snarls in rage and advances towards the Fighter, swinging his sword (rolls a few D20s to attack, maybe rolls some damage on a hit). A total of 80 points of damage. OK... Fighter its your turn - what do you do? (Fighter player starts to think if he can take another attack like this, and thinks he may have some a potion of fire resistance from an adventure a few weeks back). One... two.. (fighter player is looking at his character sheet umming and ahhing)... three; right you take the Dodge action and your turn ends. Wizard, it's now your turn, you see the Demon beating down the Fighter who is cowering under his shield, clearly in shock... what do you do? One... two...'

Have this as your games default, and suddenly players will pay very close attention when its not their turns. All the measuring of squares, looking up spells and abilities, and so forth get done while preparing for their next turn. It keeps combats short, sharp and furious, adds a level of verisimilitude and panic, encourages engagement and focus on the battle at hand.

[MrFahrenheit]

In my experience, such a battle wouldn't take more than 20-30 minutes to resolve. You've gotta keep the pacing up in combats and not give the Players more than a second or two to tell you what they're doing, and to cut down on the reading up of abilities (even at high level, the players should darn well know their abilities by now). Monsters too, just get into their heads and act accordingly without thinking about it for more than a second or two.

You've gotta implement countdowns for players - once their turn comes up you look at them and ask them what they're doing. They have a 2-3 second countdown to tell you or they take the Dodge action (hesitate) and their turn ends.

Same deal with monsters. Most of the time its (roll a d20 or two) for an attack/ multiattack routine that should take like 30 seconds at most to resolve.

Me: 'Ok, its the Balors turn. He snarls in rage and advances towards the Fighter, swinging his sword (rolls a few D20s to attack, maybe rolls some damage on a hit). A total of 80 points of damage. OK... Fighter its your turn - what do you do? (Fighter player starts to think if he can take another attack like this, and thinks he may have some a potion of fire resistance from an adventure a few weeks back). One... two.. (fighter player is looking at his character sheet umming and ahhing)... three; right you take the Dodge action and your turn ends. Wizard, it's now your turn, you see the Demon beating down the Fighter who is cowering under his shield, clearly in shock... what do you do? One... two...'

Have this as your games default, and suddenly players will pay very close attention when its not their turns. All the measuring of squares, looking up spells and abilities, and so forth get done while preparing for their next turn. It keeps combats short, sharp and furious, adds a level of verisimilitude and panic, encourages engagement and focus on the battle at hand.

Great input, this. I've oftentimes considered doing so, but shelved it early on. You're exactly right, though - unless someone has a character death and needs to bring in a new one, all players should be very familiar with their respective PC's abilities by now.

[MinotaurWarrior]

The issue isn't the inability to create level appropriate combat encounters, but the lack of pre-made options for doing so without getting cheesy ("yet another elder brain and ulitharid? How many of these are there?!")

How many? Beyond counting, as the Illithid Mind Flayers operate a massive slave empire that literally transcends time and space.

I think the core issue here is that at level 16+ you can't really credibly do the thing you can do at level 6, where today it's orcs and tomorrow goblins, then kobolds and gnolls, and bandits at noon. It's not even just an issue of a shallow bench - there could be a score of CR ~20 monsters, but you still wouldn't really be able to flip back and forth between them. I can't imagine the story where you go against a lich then an ancient dragon then an empyrean then a Baloth. But I think this is built into the structure of those high level monsters. Empyreans and Liches return from defeat. They're really set up not to be an encounter, but rather, to be a whole story.

[Malifice]

Great input, this. I've oftentimes considered doing so, but shelved it early on. You're exactly right, though - unless someone has a character death and needs to bring in a new one, all players should be very familiar with their respective PC's abilities by now.

It really breathes life into combats. They feel hectic, and often in the heat and pressure of battle players and monsters make suboptimal choices (as we all would).

It encourages/ promotes:

1) Teamwork
2) Players being prepared and knowing their abilities
3) Verisimilitude
4) Paying attention/ not drifting off when its not your turn
5) Fast paced and more heart in mouth combats

Before you introduce it, explain it to your players. Also, I dont enforce it as a black and white rule; occasionally we might need to look up a new spell or ability, or a rules question (although I prefer to make an on the spot ruling in combat situations and then look it up after the combat).

I also let players off the hook if a TPK is imminent. I might strategically get up to make a coffee or go to the toilet allowing them to all engage in table talk and have a decent few minutes to think about how best to proceed.

On that topic, anything said at the table (planning etc) is assumed to be getting said aloud by the actual characters (and thus can be reacted to by the monsters assuming they understand what the players are saying), and I place a limit on how much can be said and how much table talk is allowed. A few words or a command/ request on your turn, and maybe a word in response. Same deal for the monsters. The Hobgoblin boss (on his turn) will attack and scream out in Goblin to his minions 'To me men, and focus attacks on the Elf mage!'

The Wizard might ready a fireball and then (in character) tell the other PCs to 'fall back so I can blast them!'.

It makes combats feel so much more alive, chaotic and desperate (and highlights the shift between narrative time and the combat sequence), and on another positive it also speeds the game up immensely.

[MrFahrenheit]

So I'm digging this. One issue though: my group consists of eight players, and we do "cloud-based" combat (not sure why the person who introduced me to that term used it. It has nothing to do with a cloud or the cloud. Anyhow...).

Basically, say initiative rolls like this: two monsters, then three PCs go before the next monster (cloud 1), then two more PCs (cloud 2), then two more monsters, then the last three PCs (cloud 3).

Rather than making everyone go in order that they rolled, I let team good guy go basically like team bad guy: all three PCs in cloud 1 go in whatever order they want between the monsters whose initiatives sandwich theirs. Then the next monster goes. It's helped move combat along, but only to a certain extent. How would you apply the time limit rule to this?

I'm thinking 10 seconds times number of PCs in the cloud whose turn it is. And they don't have to roll by time being up, just declare/"lock in" their actions.

[Xetheral]

No disagreement here. But not every battle can be against a dragon turtle or empyrean, etc., so what do you do to make up the in between time? There aren't a lot of options to play with.

I'll echo the advice of using more npcs with class levels. Particularly when you're emphasizing the RP side of the game (presumably with humanoids much of the time), it makes sense that the combat encounters are also with humanoid opponents. And if you're interacting with movers and shakers, they'll logically have high-level support available for when things turn messy.


You've gotta keep the pacing up in combats and not give the Players more than a second or two to tell you what they're doing...

You've gotta implement countdowns for players - once their turn comes up you look at them and ask them what they're doing. They have a 2-3 second countdown to tell you or they take the Dodge action (hesitate) and their turn ends...

You're insisting on a confrontational style that isn't appropriate for every table. D&D supports a wide range of play styles, including both more-cooperative and more-easygoing table dynamics.

At such tables it is appropriate or even encouraged for players to ask questions of the DM before deciding on their actions for the turn, to engage in non-action activities such as brief dialogue (potentially including a brief out-of-turn response from a PC or NPC), to offer colorful OOC commentary on their character's motivations before taking an unexpected action, to engage in limited metagaming to coordinate actions with another player (particulaly a newbie), or to seek help from the DM or other players in understanding a bit of mechanics minutiae (even experienced players usually don't know all the combat mechanics, particularly if the mechanical parts of the game aren't what they enjoy).

Also, even in your decide-now-or-lose-your-action confrontational style, if your battles are highly dynamic, with PCs and opponents constantly moving about (particularly moving each other about with, e.g., shoves), preplanned actions may well be invalid or unwise by the time a given character's turn comes around. For example, if a character is unexpectedly attacked in melee range by multiple enemies on the turn before theirs, it makes sense that the player would need more than a second or two to re-evaluate their options.

Edit: didnt notice the additional exchange between you and the OP while I was writing my post. Since the OP likes your suggestions for his table, fantastic. I stand by my objections, but they apparently aren't relevant to this particular discussion.

[Biggstick]

It really breathes life into combats. They feel hectic, and often in the heat and pressure of battle players and monsters make suboptimal choices (as we all would).

It encourages/ promotes:

1) Teamwork
2) Players being prepared and knowing their abilities
3) Verisimilitude
4) Paying attention/ not drifting off when its not your turn
5) Fast paced and more heart in mouth combats

Before you introduce it, explain it to your players. Also, I dont enforce it as a black and white rule; occasionally we might need to look up a new spell or ability, or a rules question (although I prefer to make an on the spot ruling in combat situations and then look it up after the combat).

I also let players off the hook if a TPK is imminent. I might strategically get up to make a coffee or go to the toilet allowing them to all engage in table talk and have a decent few minutes to think about how best to proceed.

On that topic, anything said at the table (planning etc) is assumed to be getting said aloud by the actual characters (and thus can be reacted to by the monsters assuming they understand what the players are saying), and I place a limit on how much can be said and how much table talk is allowed. A few words or a command/ request on your turn, and maybe a word in response. Same deal for the monsters. The Hobgoblin boss (on his turn) will attack and scream out in Goblin to his minions 'To me men, and focus attacks on the Elf mage!'

The Wizard might ready a fireball and then (in character) tell the other PCs to 'fall back so I can blast them!'.

It makes combats feel so much more alive, chaotic and desperate (and highlights the shift between narrative time and the combat sequence), and on another positive it also speeds the game up immensely.

As someone who has only ever played, I wish my DM's did this. I'd love to play in a game where this is the standard.

However, the people I play with don't. They're self-proclaimed D&D nerds like me, yet when combat comes about, they him-and-haw about what spells to use and what actions/moves to make on their turn. They attempt to meta-game movement without prior in-character knowledge (if the group of PC's haven't trained on using certain tactics, how would they know how to use it?). I've put this to my DMs, and they gently try to suggest the idea, and while some of the players buy in to it, most don't. In fact they complain that they don't have enough time during combat because they need to think about what to do.

In my mind, the players need to have a couple standard actions they do when they don't know what to do. You should know enough about what your player character does to have a few options available that are always going to be useful.

[RickAllison]

Throwing in my 2 cp here - maybe not all high level challenges need to be combats.

At a certain level, characters are going to cut through their foes like knives throw hot butter. There are only so many reasonable high level monsters that you should expect to encounter, even in a points of light campaign.

So instead of jumping throwing combat encounters at the players, engage in skill challenges and roleplaying encounters with foes worthy of them. You could have them negotiating with the most powerful NPCs in the world (or the plane of existence), or engaging in skill challenges to navigate their way to their foes.

Heck, even high level magical traps might be a good way to challenge players and expend resources without resorting to the boss monsters right away.

Playing off this, you can also go in an entirely different direction and make the boss creatures even more powerful to the point that the party doesn't kill the creature itself in a battle, but merely drive it away. Set up thresholds for either damage in a single round or over the encounter and treat that as the "monster" before it gives a parting remark/attack as it retreats.

[MrFahrenheit]

Playing off this, you can also go in an entirely different direction and make the boss creatures even more powerful to the point that the party doesn't kill the creature itself in a battle, but merely drive it away. Set up thresholds for either damage in a single round or over the encounter and treat that as the "monster" before it gives a parting remark/attack as it retreats.

Oooh...I'm definitely going to use this for the next encounter. You, sir, have made me settle on turning the adult red dragon they were going to fight into an ancient one.

[Biggstick]

You're insisting on a confrontational style that isn't appropriate for every table. D&D supports a wide range of play styles, including both more-cooperative and more-easygoing table dynamics.

I view it differently. It takes combats which can last for hours and turn that time down to more like 20-30 minutes. I agree it's a bit confrontational, but it's an effective way (for some people, not all) to shorten combat time and encourage players to really learn their character's strengths and weaknesses.

As another poster mentioned, it also serves to really differentiate between combat encounters and any other encounter as well. It creates a sense of urgency which might not be present in any other part of the game. Being able to freely discuss with the other players every other aspect of the game and slowly go about things suddenly changing to an on-the-clock style definitely shakes things up for the players.

[MrFahrenheit]

Edit: didnt notice the additional exchange between you and the OP while I was writing my post. Since the OP likes your suggestions for his table, fantastic. I stand by my objections, but they apparently aren't relevant to this particular discussion.

I agree with the concept, but my table will need more than 2-3 seconds. When a question is asked of me, I will suspend the countdown.

[Xetheral]

I view it differently. It takes combats which can last for hours and turn that time down to more like 20-30 minutes. I agree it's a bit confrontational, but it's an effective way (for some people, not all) to shorten combat time and encourage players to really learn their character's strengths and weaknesses.

(Emphasis added.) I absolutely agree it's effective at some tables. I was trying to point out that it doesn't work at all tables (as you agree) and therefore it didn't make sense to insist that the OP "gotta" follow that style. But since it turns out the OP likes that style, my objection was unnecessary. :)

[MrFahrenheit]

(Emphasis added.) I absolutely agree it's effective at some tables. I was trying to point out that it doesn't work at all tables (as you agree) and therefore it didn't make sense to insist that the OP "gotta" follow that style. But since it turns out the OP likes that style, my objection was unnecessary. :)

I like the style, just modified a bit. Need to test it out at the table.

[Xetheral]

I like the style, just modified a bit. Need to test it out at the table.

Sounds good to me. I hope it works well!

[ad_hoc]

Absolutely. I've had my game 50/50 combat/skill & rp. One of the few ways I've imagined to get around the lack of high CR monsters is to change that ratio. Hopefully not too drastically.

That is already more combat than the game assumes (33/33/33).

5e is based around the 3 pillars of play. Focusing a lot on combat isn't wrong, but it shouldn't be surprising that you will need to change some things and put in some time to make it work.

[Isidorios]

("ice devil + horned devil + a couple glabrezus + four imps + a bunch of spiked devils? Good thing the combat started at 11am real time. Guess I'll be home tomorrow."

This could also be a function of the fact that you've admitted you are running a game for 8 players.
That was never not going to be a mess. And of course CR is an issue when there's a platoon of adventurers.

And how many of these 8 guys are Munchk-I mean "optimized"? The OP's "Problem with high level play" is that he's running for an absurdly large and probably powerful group. Throw the top CR half of Tome of Beasts at them, then try starting over with 4-5 players with reasonable characters, I bet that fixes the problem.

[ad_hoc]

This could also be a function of the fact that you've admitted you are running a game for 8 players.
That was never not going to be a mess. And of course CR is an issue when there's a platoon of adventurers.

And how many of these 8 guys are Munchk-I mean "optimized"? The OP's "Problem with high level play" is that he's running for an absurdly large and probably powerful group. Throw the top CR half of Tome of Beasts at them, then try starting over with 4-5 players with reasonable characters, I bet that fixes the problem.

8 players?!

Looks like we found the problem.

5 is my upper limit. I would prefer 4 but then sometimes people cancel and it's good to still be able to play.

[Baptor]

I'd love to make my own mobs, but time is an issue.

My reasoning on speeding up play is basically because there's so little available at high levels, exponentially increasing quest/rp XP is the only way to keep the campaign moving along.

What about my suggestion to pick up Tome of Beasts?

https://koboldpress.com/kpstore/product/tome-of-beasts-for-5th-edition/

with 400 monsters there's got to be enough in there to keep you going

P.S. 8 players is a nightmare. I know, I did that once. Ended up just running two games of 4.

[LordVonDerp]

Try using squads: multiple smaller characters treated as a single larger character.

[JAL_1138]

There are some mid-CR class-like NPCs in Volo's that are useful in sufficient numbers. Maybe not as much at 20th level, but up through mid-high. Certainly more than guards and bandits.

[SharkForce]

it is also possible you're overly limiting yourself.

for a group of 4 level 15 characters, one drow mage and 2 invisible stalkers (presumably bound to serve the drow mage) make a medium encounter. that's a single CR 7 and a pair of CR 6 monsters.

being level 15 doesn't mean you need to use CR 15 enemies, and bounded accuracy doesn't mean that kobolds and goblins are the only thing that is relevant even against more powerful characters.

most of the CR 5-10 monsters can effectively serve as cannon fodder plausibly at higher levels - summoned, mind controlled, on the payroll, created, blackmailed, or manipulated into being the party's enemies can cover most of these creatures motivation, potentially.

now, this is not to say that more variety at higher CRs would be unwelcome... CR 10-15 "mook" monsters would certainly be helpful (often more powerful forms of the above creatures would suit the purpose... larger elementals, dire or giant animals with armour and trained for war, mounts that are enchanted like a magic item, swarms or mobs of more powerful creatures, etc). but in typical group sizes, you don't need to make it a fight against 150 giant crabs. it can be a much more manageable fight of 5 or 6 stone giants.

if your overall enemy cannot provide at least *some* sort of these things plausibly, it is entirely possible that they are not terribly wel-suited to be the BBEG. it is likewise worth noting that random encounters don't need to be literally random... if you're attacking a drow stronghold, it is perfectly reasonable to consistently run into patrols of drow elites, drow mages, drow priestesses of lolth, driders, yochlols, giant spiders, and a variety of NPCs with the drow racial abilities instead of human or elf or whatever (no reason there can't be drow assassins, drow gladiators refluffed as drow champions, and so on).

[Squiddish]

Tucker's Kobolds, my friend. Sufficient intelligence and sneakiness can bump the challenge of anything up drastically. Use fluff to your advantage. Does the fluff say they are excellent craftsmen? Have them use items of their own construction. Good at traps? They should use them. Gifted at magic? Well then I see no reason why some of their elite footsoldiers wouldn't have, say, +1 weapons and a necklace of fireballs.

[Malifice]

it is also possible you're overly limiting yourself.

for a group of 4 level 15 characters, one drow mage and 2 invisible stalkers (presumably bound to serve the drow mage) make a medium encounter. that's a single CR 7 and a pair of CR 6 monsters.

I certainly wouldn't multiply XP for 2-3 CR 6 critters for a party of 15th level PCs. The DMG says you shouldnt multiply for difficulty if the threat the critters pose isnt that great (you just add them together). A party of 15th level PCs wouldnt find a CR6 any more than a single round speed hump. Adding 3 CR6's together is a trivial encounter for a party of 15th level PCs which is much more accurate.


8 players?!

Looks like we found the problem.

5 is my upper limit. I would prefer 4 but then sometimes people cancel and it's good to still be able to play.

Throw some my way. I have 4 players and need another one. Four players kills a session cancelling the whole thing when you have 1-2 who cant turn up.

[Laserlight]

You've gotta keep the pacing up in combats and not give the Players more than a second or two to tell you what they're doing...
Have this as your games default, and suddenly players will pay very close attention when its not their turns. All the measuring of squares, looking up spells and abilities, and so forth get done while preparing for their next turn. It keeps combats short, sharp and furious, adds a level of verisimilitude and panic, encourages engagement and focus on the battle at hand.

Seconded. The DM's job is ultimately to manipulate the player's emotions. Fast and frantic, "we're all gonna die!", "Aberthal, you're the only one left, the dragon is coming at you, its jaws gape!" "What the hell, I charge and head butt the dragon!" "The dragon FALLS!" is going to be more fun and better remembered than the one where they treated the combat as a numerical puzzle. That's not to say every encounter needs to be frantic, because you need to vary your pacing; but if you want to make an encounter more exciting, add pressure.

[SharkForce]

I certainly wouldn't multiply XP for 2-3 CR 6 critters for a party of 15th level PCs. The DMG says you shouldnt multiply for difficulty if the threat the critters pose isnt that great (you just add them together). A party of 15th level PCs wouldnt find a CR6 any more than a single round speed hump. Adding 3 CR6's together is a trivial encounter for a party of 15th level PCs which is much more accurate.

CR ~6 critters can often have well over 100 HP... those invisible stalkers, in particular, have just over 100 and are invisible, making them fairly difficult to target in many ways, and have some remarkably useful immunities to a variety of AoE control effects, and are extremely difficult to ambush by their target. their damage is not large, but their capacity to inflict it on the members of the party that are the most poorly-equipped to deal with it is fairly substantial. supported by a drow mage which can cast mage armour, and provide support with spells that do not inconvenience the stalkers in the slightest (web, cloudkill, evard's black tentacles) and spamming damage spells after the first concentration effect is put in place, they aren't likely to kill a level 15 party... but they should make for a fight that isn't going to be ignored or dealt with easily in a single round.

i've not seen the 4-person party that can deal that much damage in a single round (probably with disadvantage to attack rolls to boot, and without using targeted spells) without expending rather substantial resources. and, since this is a medium encounter, it isn't supposed to kill the PCs, nor is it supposed to be much of anything other than a 2-3 round fight that drains some resources. so hey, if they one-round it and have to expend a bunch of spells to pull that off, well... working as intended.

certainly, if a party was willing to blow the resources to defeat the encounter i suggested above (drow mage plus two invisible stalkers) in a single round, they should be able to handle a purple worm (CR 15) with the same approximate resources just as easily, if not easier. which is reflected in the fact that the purple worm is actually worth only 13k exp, while the encounter i proposed has an adjusted value of 15k (both are medium difficulty).

so actually, i would have to say that the adjusted experience point value seems to be working out fairly well for CR 6 creatures when used against a level 15 party, at least in this specific example.

i suspect the actual intent of that section in the DMG is more along the lines of "a purple worm being ridden by a pair of standard goblins (don't ask me how the goblins are able to control it, we'll just assume for the sake of argument they are) does not have its experience value multiplied by 2".

[Occasional Sage]

Hm...I like what you're saying about devils and such, but even in your example, it can only last so many sessions. Also never really thought to use average damage as I like to roll as much as any player, but that makes total sense for goons, and cuts down on time between players. Nonetheless, it'd be nice if we could get some high CR monsters that were intended to be mooks, and readily available on the prime material.

If you like rolling dice, get... maybe four sets of dice, in two matching pairs. Roll to hit and damage together: did the red d20 hit but not the blue-and-gold? Then only count up the red damage!

Saves a ton of time over the rounds.

[MrFahrenheit]

Seconded. The DM's job is ultimately to manipulate the player's emotions. Fast and frantic, "we're all gonna die!", "Aberthal, you're the only one left, the dragon is coming at you, its jaws gape!" "What the hell, I charge and head butt the dragon!" "The dragon FALLS!" is going to be more fun and better remembered than the one where they treated the combat as a numerical puzzle. That's not to say every encounter needs to be frantic, because you need to vary your pacing; but if you want to make an encounter more exciting, add pressure.

This is very true. Several sessions ago, the party was in Pandemonium, and they had a magically-propelled covered wagon (read: manipulated the howling winds around it to move, and didn't need horses). The paladin gunned the accelerator and succeeded on an athletics check when he crashed it into the bad guy's wagon head on to fly out as result of the impact and at the bad guy, nat 20'ed said bad guy, and ended the fight before it could begin.

[MaxWilson]

CR ~6 critters can often have well over 100 HP... those invisible stalkers, in particular, have just over 100 and are invisible, making them fairly difficult to target in many ways, and have some remarkably useful immunities to a variety of AoE control effects, and are extremely difficult to ambush by their target. their damage is not large, but their capacity to inflict it on the members of the party that are the most poorly-equipped to deal with it is fairly substantial. supported by a drow mage which can cast mage armour, and provide support with spells that do not inconvenience the stalkers in the slightest (web, cloudkill, evard's black tentacles) and spamming damage spells after the first concentration effect is put in place, they aren't likely to kill a level 15 party... but they should make for a fight that isn't going to be ignored or dealt with easily in a single round.

i've not seen the 4-person party that can deal that much damage in a single round (probably with disadvantage to attack rolls to boot, and without using targeted spells) without expending rather substantial resources. and, since this is a medium encounter, it isn't supposed to kill the PCs, nor is it supposed to be much of anything other than a 2-3 round fight that drains some resources. so hey, if they one-round it and have to expend a bunch of spells to pull that off, well... working as intended.

certainly, if a party was willing to blow the resources to defeat the encounter i suggested above (drow mage plus two invisible stalkers) in a single round, they should be able to handle a purple worm (CR 15) with the same approximate resources just as easily, if not easier. which is reflected in the fact that the purple worm is actually worth only 13k exp, while the encounter i proposed has an adjusted value of 15k (both are medium difficulty).

so actually, i would have to say that the adjusted experience point value seems to be working out fairly well for CR 6 creatures when used against a level 15 party, at least in this specific example.

i suspect the actual intent of that section in the DMG is more along the lines of "a purple worm being ridden by a pair of standard goblins (don't ask me how the goblins are able to control it, we'll just assume for the sake of argument they are) does not have its experience value multiplied by 2".


You're correct about the intent of the XP multipliers. (Even in that case, goblins can be somewhat useful via the Help action--but they don't double the purple worm's threat level.)

XP multipliers are a way of crudely representing Lanchester's Square Law of military combat. If one Invisible Stalker will do X damage to the party before it dies, two of them will do roughly 3X damage before both of them die (X from the first one, 2X from the second one because it lives twice as long), so you use an XP multiplier of 1.5 because 2 x 1.5 = 3. Similarly, three of them will do 6X damage before all dying (X + 2X + 3X), so you use a multiplier of 2 because 3 x 2 = 6.

It really has nothing to do with the relative levels of the PCs and monsters. Even at 20th level, three goblins are still six times as deadly as one goblin--it's just that 6x the deadliness of one goblin still isn't a big deal.

PC strength scales in the exact same way, quadratically (or better actually, because of class synergies), which is why eight-PC parties are so notoriously hard to challenge, especially for DMs that rely on one or two monsters at a time. You really have to get comfortable with not letting the PCs always outnumber the monsters.

As further evidence, consider the UA on Encounter Building (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/Encounter_Building.pdf), which indicate that 15th level characters should be matched on a roughly 1:1 basis with CR 7 and 6 monsters (Drow Mage, Invisible Stalkers respectively) to make roughly Medium (a.k.a. speed bump) encounters. This is basically a way of cancelling multipliers against each other and just maintaining the right proportions between PCs and NPCs. If each 15th level PC is fighting his own CR 15 monster, the fight is super Deadly. But if each PC is fighting his own CR 5-7 monster, the fight is about right, according to Mike Mearls. (YMMV obviously. Not all tables enjoy the same level of challenge or difficulty. There's nothing wrong with super Easy or super Deadly if it's fun for you.)

[Sir cryosin]

Probably not the answer you're looking for but I make LOTS of custom monsters. I use the MM monsters mostly for inspiration and occasionally for an iconic battle (Beholders, etc). Using the tools in the DMG you can make some very fair monsters rather quickly at any CR. So I can make infernal zombies that are CR 10 mooks or a Spellthief Elf who's CR 15 if needed.

If making your own mobs isn't your thing, I hear the Tome of Beasts by Kobold Press has 400 monsters and reviews say its better than the MM. I've not bought it though, so take that as second hand.

I don't like the Tome of Beasts. The reason is because there Cr for monsters are not right. After last night I will not let my players use Tome of Beast. The reason is I ran a one shot lv 20 for 4 players are regular DM countnt make it. I had one player true polymorph into a ancient dragon can't remember which one. But my gripe is with Tome of Beasts Dragons. A ancient mitral dragon is a Cr 20 it has innate spellcasting a breath weapon that after damage has a 6 round bleed damage no save. And a few other things. Now I don't own to and haven't looked at it so that just my opinion based off of last night's game. I throw a solar and a ancient copper dragon at them and it pretty much did nothing.

[Ghost Nappa]

Just because a creature is no longer a "threat" to a high level PC, doesn't mean they still can't be a threat.

Don't be afraid to keep throwing level CR monsters at them, but now they're actually fighting tooth-and-nail with every tactic and advantage they can think of to subvert the PC's.

Imagine how scared a Level 15 party can be when a dozen hobgoblins ambush the party with a couple of wyverns and a mid-level sorcerer with a grudge and the monsters push back a lot harder than they imagined?

At lower levels, you would never do his because it would mean killing a player instantly, but you can have the hobgoblins perform tactics that at this point only the PC's were using like focus-firing a single target. Let more important monsters like the Sorcerer or the leader of the hobgoblins make death saving throws if they get low, have and use magical gear, give every hobgoblin 1d4 Fighter levels, let the enemy open fire from a distance and force the melee characters to take a smarter approach to the use of cover, have a free-for-all fight occur between three factions (the party, enemy 1, and enemy 2) where you have a guest play enemy 2 for the encounter.

These are just some ideas to make lower level CR monsters more threatening for a high-level party without just giving them infinite soldiers.

Maybe the fame and success of the party has inspired some NPCs to follow in their footsteps for glory, fame. and fortune and now they're rivals or enemies. Let your creativity flow through you.

[MaxWilson]

I don't like the Tome of Beasts. The reason is because there Cr for monsters are not right. After last night I will not let my players use Tome of Beast. The reason is I ran a one shot lv 20 for 4 players are regular DM countnt make it. I had one player true polymorph into a ancient dragon can't remember which one. But my gripe is with Tome of Beasts Dragons. A ancient mitral dragon is a Cr 20 it has innate spellcasting a breath weapon that after damage has a 6 round bleed damage no save. And a few other things. Now I don't own to and haven't looked at it so that just my opinion based off of last night's game. I throw a solar and a ancient copper dragon at them and it pretty much did nothing.

I got curious, so I plugged the Mithral Dragon's stats into http://1-dot-encounter-planner.appspot.com/quick-monster-stats.html

If I eyeball the breath weapon as probably lasting for about three rounds before it gets healed, then it does 59 + 3*10 damage per affected PC. If I call it two PCs, but figure that the dragon will always get in three tail strikes (in reality it won't), then I wind up with 20*3+((22+18+18)*2+(59+3*10)*2)/3 = 158 as the average damage per round.

Plugging that into Leugren's CR-calculator (just because I'm too lazy to get up and find my copy of my DMG while I'm surfing the Internet), I get:

297 HP
AC 20
158 damage per round
+15 to hit
Result: CR 20

If I eyeball that three PCs are likely to be affected (seems unlikely given how small the AoE is), then it's 188 damage per round and CR 21. If I account for its spellcasting, then CR becomes basically impossible to compute (Forcecage is in some ways like infinite DPR, and antimagic field is in some ways like infinite HP), but if we just pick something simple (Blur spell) and increase its effective AC to 25 because of that, its CR increases further from 21 to 22.

So from the CR perspective, the mithral dragon doesn't seem too out of line to me. Under plausible assumptions it does wind up at CR 20, due partly to its low HP offsetting its high damage. If you question those assumptions, just bump up CR by a little bit. Your real problem is the True Polymorph spell--your player could have True Polymorphed into an Ancient White Dragon instead, and the fight against Solar + Ancient Copper Dragon would still have been quite easy.

Also, 5E Solars are lame, weak and sickly.

[Sir cryosin]

I got curious, so I plugged the Mithral Dragon's stats into http://1-dot-encounter-planner.appspot.com/quick-monster-stats.html

If I eyeball the breath weapon as probably lasting for about three rounds before it gets healed, then it does 59 + 3*10 damage per affected PC. If I call it two PCs, but figure that the dragon will always get in three tail strikes (in reality it won't), then I wind up with 20*3+((22+18+18)*2+(59+3*10)*2)/3 = 158 as the average damage per round.

Plugging that into Leugren's CR-calculator (just because I'm too lazy to get up and find my copy of my DMG while I'm surfing the Internet), I get:

297 HP
AC 20
158 damage per round
+15 to hit
Result: CR 20

If I eyeball that three PCs are likely to be affected (seems unlikely given how small the AoE is), then it's 188 damage per round and CR 21. If I account for its spellcasting, then CR becomes basically impossible to compute (Forcecage is in some ways like infinite DPR, and antimagic field is in some ways like infinite HP), but if we just pick something simple (Blur spell) and increase its effective AC to 25 because of that, its CR increases further from 21 to 22.

So from the CR perspective, the mithral dragon doesn't seem too out of line to me. Under plausible assumptions it does wind up at CR 20, due partly to its low HP offsetting its high damage. If you question those assumptions, just bump up CR by a little bit. Your real problem is the True Polymorph spell--your player could have True Polymorphed into an Ancient White Dragon instead, and the fight against Solar + Ancient Copper Dragon would still have been quite easy.

Also, 5E Solars are lame, weak and sickly.

I'm agree on Ture polymorph is powerful so it on my watch list. But I just felt the dragon Cr should of been 21 instead of 20 but hey what ever. And yes the solar was only weak as soon as the copper dragon got token out. But what saved the solar tho is his 150 fly speed the 3 legendary actions to teleport 120 staying out of PC range while being able to go in hit with his bow and get back out.

[MaxWilson]

I'm agree on Ture polymorph is powerful so it on my watch list. But I just felt the dragon Cr should of been 21 instead of 20 but hey what ever. And yes the solar was only weak as soon as the copper dragon got token out. But what saved the solar tho is his 150 fly speed the 3 legendary actions to teleport 120 staying out of PC range while being able to go in hit with his bow and get back out.

Apparently I misread my Tome of Beasts when I did that earlier post: I thought ToB said the Ancient Mithral Dragon was CR 20, but when I look again now it actually says CR 18. That's clearly wrong!

I tend to largely ignore CR in my games except for awarding XP, but my rule of thumb for spellcasting is that I'll bump up the XP award by half of the spellcasting level. So an Ancient White Dragon with the powers of a 10th level Sorcerer would be CR 25. (This estimate might be on the high side, but I've never seen players complain about getting too much XP.) An Ancient Mithral Dragon is a "15th level spellcaster" but lacking the full powers of a 15th level Sorcerer, so I'll call it roughly 12th level, which means its rated CR at my table would be 20 + 6 = CR 26, which makes it worth 90,000 XP.

[SharkForce]

i'd give the full 15 levels worth. less abilities, sure, but...

1) on a monster, the number of spells known on a sorcerer is easily equivalent to the number of different spells you'd expect a wizard to actually use in a single fight anyways.

2) the dragon has the proficiency bonus of a high CR monster, on top of generally high attributes. which means, sure, he won't be *quickening* that hold person in a level 6 spell slot... but it still gets a ridiculous save DC. which will probably thoroughly screw over half the party with a single action.

[BillyBobShorton]

Imagination is a pretty solid DM'ING tool, I hear...

Fire/lightning ghosts. Intelligent, spell-casting golems. Giant Hordes of Goblins. Another party of high level adventurers?The Render? Made up monsters?? Zap them to another world and reduce half their powers...

there is literally ZERO LIMIT on ways to keep ecounters fresh and challenging without hitting some unrealistic video game High CR repeat wall.

I'm a little baffled at this almost "throwing in the towel" once players reach higher levels. Is it not a game of imagination? So create.

[MrFahrenheit]

Imagination is a pretty solid DM'ING tool, I hear...

Fire/lightning ghosts. Intelligent, spell-casting golems. Giant Hordes of Goblins. Another party of high level adventurers?The Render? Made up monsters?? Zap them to another world and reduce half their powers...

there is literally ZERO LIMIT on ways to keep ecounters fresh and challenging without hitting some unrealistic video game High CR repeat wall.

I'm a little baffled at this almost "throwing in the towel" once players reach higher levels. Is it not a game of imagination? So create.

It sure is. Not all of us DMs have hours upon hours to plan, though.

[MrFahrenheit]

Just because a creature is no longer a "threat" to a high level PC, doesn't mean they still can't be a threat.

Don't be afraid to keep throwing level CR monsters at them, but now they're actually fighting tooth-and-nail with every tactic and advantage they can think of to subvert the PC's.

Imagine how scared a Level 15 party can be when a dozen hobgoblins ambush the party with a couple of wyverns and a mid-level sorcerer with a grudge and the monsters push back a lot harder than they imagined?

At lower levels, you would never do his because it would mean killing a player instantly, but you can have the hobgoblins perform tactics that at this point only the PC's were using like focus-firing a single target. Let more important monsters like the Sorcerer or the leader of the hobgoblins make death saving throws if they get low, have and use magical gear, give every hobgoblin 1d4 Fighter levels, let the enemy open fire from a distance and force the melee characters to take a smarter approach to the use of cover, have a free-for-all fight occur between three factions (the party, enemy 1, and enemy 2) where you have a guest play enemy 2 for the encounter.

These are just some ideas to make lower level CR monsters more threatening for a high-level party without just giving them infinite soldiers.

Maybe the fame and success of the party has inspired some NPCs to follow in their footsteps for glory, fame. and fortune and now they're rivals or enemies. Let your creativity flow through you.

I'm liking this idea a lot. The party is famous in their home kingdom, but now rather infamous with the invading horde. This + time management issues discussed earlier will definitely be tested in my next session.

[Pex]

No disagreement here. But not every battle can be against a dragon turtle or empyrean, etc., so what do you do to make up the in between time? There aren't a lot of options to play with.

Have less combat. At this point resource management isn't relevant, and characters need all their stuff anyway to face the BBEG legendary monsters. Put in more roleplaying time. The party is high level. Let that play out in the gameworld. You don't necessarily want or need to turn this into a superheroes genre, but if the party by themselves really can take on an army and win easily let them. These are how legends begin. When the orcs are getting uppity and it normally takes a levels 1 - 5 adventure arc to save the day, the level 15 party comes in and handles the situation in one game day. The populace tell stories of the Legendary Heroes doing this which the low level PCs of the next campaign will hear about. It's just filler. Meanwhile, the party learns of the true mastermind behind the orcs getting uppity and go directly to face him. In other words, what would be a levels 1 to 15+ campaign story in its own right of roughly two real world years playing time is a one or two game session adventure arc for the already level 15+ PCs.

[MaxWilson]

i'd give the full 15 levels worth. less abilities, sure, but...

1) on a monster, the number of spells known on a sorcerer is easily equivalent to the number of different spells you'd expect a wizard to actually use in a single fight anyways.

2) the dragon has the proficiency bonus of a high CR monster, on top of generally high attributes. which means, sure, he won't be *quickening* that hold person in a level 6 spell slot... but it still gets a ridiculous save DC. which will probably thoroughly screw over half the party with a single action.

15th level spellcasting is far weaker than 15 levels of Dragon Sorc. Dragons with Dragon Sorc levels have metamagic (esp. Quicken) and a better spell selection than the Mithral Dragon does.

That's why I don't consider the Mithral Dragon's ToB feature equivalent to a full sorc. In practice of course I'd probably just do for Mithral Dragons what I do for other dragons: make a judgment call on how many levels of dragon sorc it should have, given its personality and work ethic.


Have less combat. At this point resource management isn't relevant, and characters need all their stuff anyway to face the BBEG legendary monsters. Put in more roleplaying time. The party is high level. Let that play out in the gameworld. You don't necessarily want or need to turn this into a superheroes genre, but if the party by themselves really can take on an army and win easily let them. These are how legends begin. When the orcs are getting uppity and it normally takes a levels 1 - 5 adventure arc to save the day, the level 15 party comes in and handles the situation in one game day. The populace tell stories of the Legendary Heroes doing this which the low level PCs of the next campaign will hear about. It's just filler. Meanwhile, the party learns of the true mastermind behind the orcs getting uppity and go directly to face him. In other words, what would be a levels 1 to 15+ campaign story in its own right of roughly two real world years playing time is a one or two game session adventure arc for the already level 15+ PCs.

Excellent advice. That would be a fun campaign to play in.

[SharkForce]

15th level spellcasting is far weaker than 15 levels of Dragon Sorc. Dragons with Dragon Sorc levels have metamagic (esp. Quicken) and a better spell selection than the Mithral Dragon does.

That's why I don't consider the Mithral Dragon's ToB feature equivalent to a full sorc. In practice of course I'd probably just do for Mithral Dragons what I do for other dragons: make a judgment call on how many levels of dragon sorc it should have, given its personality and work ethic.

the dragon is getting probably 2-3 legendary actions per round. it already has quicken, it just has it on a ton of different actions instead of on a spell at a resource cost.

it is not at all comparable to the difference in adding quicken to a sorcerer either... the sorcerer typically gets an extra cantrip out of the deal. in order to add the equivalent power to the dragon, you would basically be adding some negligible amount of damage per round. it isn't remotely the same thing.

[MaxWilson]

the dragon is getting probably 2-3 legendary actions per round. it already has quicken, it just has it on a ton of different actions instead of on a spell at a resource cost.

it is not at all comparable to the difference in adding quicken to a sorcerer either... the sorcerer typically gets an extra cantrip out of the deal. in order to add the equivalent power to the dragon, you would basically be adding some negligible amount of damage per round. it isn't remotely the same thing.

I feel like we're failing to communicate here.

Hypothetical dragon #1: has Dragon Sorc 15. Has all the stats from the MM, plus all the features of a Dragon Sorc 15 except ASIs. On his turn, can e.g. Quicken Hold Person V while doing a claw/claw/bite routine, plus tail attacks after his turn as Legendary Actions.

Hypothetical dragon #2: has spellcasting a la Mithral Dragon. On his turn, can either eschew spells and do normal dragon stuff (claw/claw/bite) or cast a spell (e.g. Antimagic Field), plus tail attacks after his turn as Legendary Actions.

#1 and #2 are not the same, notwithstanding they both have legendary actions. Hence why #2 gets rated differently on CR, although I've said that in practice I would just convert #2 to #1 as a full dragon sorc, unless I had some kind of a reason not to. (I.e. this dragon felt more wizard-y.)